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12:01 AM
Well, it's not the monitor. After a factory reset of it, Surface Pro 2 is driving it at 2560x1600. So, that's good...monitor is fancier than the computer.
But the Mac is only running HDMI, DisplayPort signal not making it through.
 
@HostileFork probably wouldn't do any harm to try resetting the PRAM and/or the SMC on the mac
 
12:53 AM
@johnk Did both and it seems to have awoken...
Okay, let's see if everything can be put back on track now.
 
@HostileFork sounds like good news. It's nice to bring things back from the dead
 
 
1 hour later…
2:27 AM
Everything back and working. Whew.
I suppose the smart thing to do would be to take this as a sign and order those batteries for the UPS.
 
2:38 AM
Three reasons, all probably not that good.
1) I don't want comments, I want discussion. It's not carved in stone. If someone wants it carved, *we* can carve it, not just me. But maybe no-one wants to discuss.
2) Oneboxing means scrolling. I wanted the room to see it all at once, be able to scroll up to it, link to lines in it without leaving the room. Probably just me not understanding how to work the room.
3) I wanted to be able to link each line to conversations about it, in hopes of being able to collect together a tutorial/walk-through of lexical concepts. Here I am just dreaming, most
@HostileFork Good news indeed.
 
@MarkI A bit worn out from today to be able to process the abstract lexeming or its implications, but will go over it soon.
The thing I kind of want are the "emergent conclusions", like "if this then that" so that we are aware of the black holes and impossibilities
 
@iceflow19 I'd be glad to discuss, any time. Would love to see what you have, I'm woefully short of sources on the subject. As for what it is for, it is the first chapter in the "how to make Rebol as easy as possible to reference" reference book I am writing. I had some hope that this room would be a good place to start such an effort ...
@HostileFork As usual, exactamundo, HF. Take your time, no rush.
 
0
A: REBOL3 - what is the difference between the different branches?

Ashley Beyond OS/X, Linux and Mac Should this read as "OS/X, Linux and Windows"? Ren/C is intended to not have an executable at all Wouldn't the code get more real world exposure if minimalist core builds were made available? Not everyone who'd like to use core will have the tools/knowledge t...

 
@rgchris Maybe I should. I don't know anything about what those things are for, let alone how to use them. What is certain is that if this turns out to be (or morphs into something) useful, to anybody, then it will be put somewhere other than chat. Maybe several somewheres.
------------------- Here is the executive summary:
lexemes 29 [tertiary 1 primary 28 [aggregate 7 [
    structural 3 lineal 4] isolate 21 [morpheme 6
    numeric 9 [temporal 2 arithmetic 6 character 1]
    textual 6 [delimited 3 infixed 2 prefixed 1]]]]
That is just so ... wonderfully opaque. Yet it could be the entire lexer design and documentation. I love this language.
Er, high-level design, I know you know I meant.
Also, for certain kinds of blocks, I think that format works better than the default.
Limited indenting can work for some types of deeply-structured blocks. Thoughts, anyone?
 
3:29 AM
Um, weird. I just realized, I must have screwed up somewhere in posting. The sentences beginning with "For example" and "Similarly" belong after the first sentence of the OBSERVATIONS section. I was sure it looked right right after I posted it ... was that what those 'retry' indicators were doing? Re-ordering my posts?
Ha ha ha, it is lucky now that chat is ephemeral ...
 
One thing I've noticed is that with programming languages syntax and grammar is pretty heavily emphasized, and the morphology not nearly as much. Rebol has a story to tell with morphology imo. Designing a dialect has as much to do with crafting a particular syntax and grammar as it does semantics.
By trying to be more human readable, a programming language sooner or later will run into the morphological rules which govern the natural languages they try to emulate.
 
@iceflow19 Interesting. I was just thinking that there should be a morphological reason to prefer to-string x over to string! x rather than a syntactical one.
 
3:49 AM
@MarkI A valid example. There's different forces at play between to-string x (to-string containing two* morphemes) and to string! x (to and string being two lexemes each containing one morpheme) Though I actually prefer the second form personally.
 
@iceflow19 I prefer it too, that's why I was thinking about it. I really should (meaning, I want to) prefer the other ...
 
I prefer to string! x
 
We all prefer the "wrong" one :)
 
Well wrong is subjective.
 
Of course, especially when quoted and smileyed :)
 
3:53 AM
@earl prefers to-string, DocKimbel does as well. Arguments about the disruptiveness of the exclamation point, not having to hit shift, grouping etc.
 
@HostileFork Arguments abound, convincing reasons are rarer.
 
At least one reason I prefer to string! x is discoverability of TO. I didn't know there was a generalized TO for a while.
Because everyone was using TO-STRING and TO-INTEGER and such as if they were atomic, so I assumed you had to have some kind of switch statement and call the right function if you had the target type in a variable.
 
Apologies, it is getting late here, must run (er, lie down), I'll have to catch up later. Happy Reboling everyone!
 
One line of argument is that you have a pre-made single arity function to pass to things that take a function that operate on their argument.
L8r, I'm about to try some sleeping too. Long day of disasters.
 
Remember, "Tomorrow is another day. Of disasters." 'Night.
 
3:57 AM
@MarkI Night, Let's chat again on the topic sometime.
And to leave you with something to ponder:

Is path! a syntactic construct or a morphological one?
Now then, I need to go convert some autotools hell to cmake...
But first I need to make a new linux VM...
 
 
2 hours later…
5:43 AM
room topic changed to [Rebol and Red]: Thinking outside the [ blocks ] rebolsource.net/go/chat-faq [homoiconicity] [jit] [json] [lisp] [rebol] [red]
 
 
6 hours later…
11:51 AM
@HostileFork That is a badly written codegolf challenge :( So no wonder nearly all the answers are wrong! Even the accepted CJAM answer is incorrect (for eg. "don't" does not work).
I find doing codegolf help sharpen my Rebol. Seems writing challenges could be a good way to sharpen your specification writing :)
2
@johnk Well best solution I can come up with is....
func [s] [
    w: func [t] [
        map-each n split t charset "- " [
            replace/all n complement charset [#"a" - #"z"] ""
        ]
    ]

    i: unique w s
    i = intersect i w read/string %most%20used.txt
]
which when minified comes to 159 chars. So not very good so hopefully a better solution can be found.
 
12:49 PM
@draegtun There's always Rebmu...! Which does, as I've said, have a new release coming that I need to get out the door. That would flatten down quite nicely.
Rebmu is another thing where I think having more people hacking on it would improve it, and I do think it would be quite neat if it could get around winning these challenges a majority of the time.
It's a bit of a 'pity' (as @earl would say) that Ren/C got so much bigger than Rebolsource, because I wanted to have a Rebmu downloads page with the executable having it encapped and running on all the platforms, where it acts as Rebmu out of the box. But then have some switch like --rebol that turns it into an ordinary Rebol. So rebmu --rebol ... would be equivalent to rebol ...; trickily giving everyone who has Rebmu a Rebol instance.
CodeGolf sneak attack.
 
1:28 PM
Okay, now it's ... super weird.
I'm in the instance of my browser that I posted my dissertation from, and every line in it is in the right order!
Even more interesting, the browser crashed overnight, so I am here now only after a browser restart and a "Restore".
Confirmed. I started up another instance, loaded this page, and even refreshed.
We definitely have a SO chat bug here.
If I ever do that again, I guess I'll be numbering the sentences.
Please accept my apologies, if the lines in my mega-post are jumbled up in your instance.
WHAT ... THE ... SWEAR-WORD ... IS ... GOING ... ON! They're back to being jumbled here now. Some sort of caching maybe?
Well, at least I can be (relatively) sure now that we're all seeing the same thing, so that makes me feel a little better.
Looks like the only big jumble is in the two sentences I mentioned, but the whole correspondences section is supposed to be in a much better ordering. Luckily the sentences in that section are largely stand-alone, so it's only annoyingly wrong, rather than seriously wrong :)
Just played in the sandbox, and I can confirm that you have to wait until that retry thing goes away before posting your next message, or SO gets free rein on how to order them.
Learn something new every day ...
 
1:54 PM
@MarkI So in terms of action items, I wonder if you have any particular questions you want resolved from that. In the world of the lexical, my main concerns are over NewPath issues. Other major areas of concern for me would be "coming up with a construction syntax format that is complete and coherent and making sure Red uses the same one".
And now I'm thinking about Lit-Bit (or, Lit-Count)
 
@HostileFork Let me try to list the questions I think need resolving.
But first, a tiny overview.
I am trying to describe the current lexical state of the language, but do it in such a way that (a) it is complete and accurate and (b) extensions and "corrections" to the lexical model will plug into that description without completely revamping it.
Question 1: Is it possible that the lexical restrictions on paths have a semantic basis that should not arbitrarily be ignored?
(I know your answer to that one HF, and for others, I know it will help once I list said restrictions, coming soon.)
Question 2: Is it possible to describe a lexical model in such a way that conflicts are apparent before the model is implemented?
Question 3: Does everyone agree that binaries are a string-type?
Question 4: Does any of this alleviate the "any-" problem? Do people like "morpheme"?
Question 5: Does form/lexemic work as a mold replacement?
Oog, work beckons, bbl.
 
2:18 PM
5: no
2: hopefully
3: I had considered that perhaps what we call STRING! might be called TEXT!, and that STRING! be the replacement for the more intimidating-sounding VECTOR!.
And to that, on 4:, getting rid of ANY- is definitely something on my radar. And I think we're not going to see any better superclass for BLOCK! GROUP! PATH! than LIST!
And in the literacy-out-of-the-box and avoiding abbreviations, CHARACTER! is possible but long, so is CODEPOINT!. LETTER! would be nice, except it is not always a letter.
 
2:43 PM
Something to consider in NewPath is that I'd like most Rebol code to keep running as it did before when it had a URL!. So if your URL! wasn't too weird and you used it literally before, you wrote something like my-routine http://hostilefork.com/protocols/foo?bar=10 that your my-routine will still get a URL! as a parameter. Because the evaluation of that path, albeit trivial as it's just a set-word! and a NONE! and a bunch of words... can make a URL!
So you don't go upgrading my-routine to take paths. If you wanted it to take a path, you'd have to quote it or otherwise get it literally. Because paths dispatch and evaluate.
I've pointed out a similar evaluation can work if the first element is not a SET-WORD! but rather a FILE!, so %foo/bar.html would do a similar evaluation, even though it has no "interesting" evaluation to do. You don't wind up passing a PATH! to a routine in that case, it gets a FILE!.
But what about our old friend REFINEMENT!? There is no REFINEMENT! in NewPath, only paths that begin with a NONE! value. If we were to follow with the "inert" refinement of Rebol historically behavior, we would say that a NONE! heading a PATH! means it should sort of "defuse" the chain of evaluation and produce the path itself as if it were quoted.
But firstly, I don't think inert refinements were all that valuable to begin with. Secondly, putting in this "quoting" behavior would be a bit of a conundrum for the chaining evaluator to do in a "pure" fashion, because now you are breaking the rule... if it does it with a chain, you effectively have the first element of the path somehow looking all the way to the end of the path to make the quoted version.
So wouldn't it be more valuable to turn that into a FILE! instead, so /foo/bar.html behaves as if you had written %/foo/bar.html? An implicit "%" in the NONE! case?
This doesn't preclude the use of PATH! for what refinements do in data contexts, like in function specs where they are merely examined.
It just gives them evaluator behavior such that read /foo/["bar" 1 + 2]/(x: "olleh" reverse x) will pass %"/foo/bar3/hello" to read.
 
Howdy.
 
@Morwenn Heya. I pinged you about Ren/C++ updating... so that's back on track :-)
Now no longer tied to Rebol/Rebolsource.
 
@HostileFork I was away for a while, I may have missed it.
 
Jul 19 at 17:19, by HostileFork
Though speaking of getting back up to keeping up: @Morwenn ....aaaaaand ... ...weeeee're... ... back!
Some little scurrying here and there, now a CMake generator for Ren/C
 
Ugh, I was away for two weeks and I've like 50 notifications on GitHub -____-
 
2:54 PM
5
A: REBOL3 - what is the difference between the different branches?

HostileForkThis is an answer destined to become outdated, hence set to Community Wiki. This information is as of Jul-2015. So if updating this answer after some time has passed, please modify the date as well. Binary download of Rebol3 from rebol.com Last build was 5-Mar-2011 and pre-dates the open sou...

 
3:26 PM
posted on July 23, 2015 by Oldes

Will look like this: https://files.gitter.im/red/red/xbwB/blob

 
That PR has a picture in it of state of Red/View here on Windows:
I drew some Android red prototypes and I think he just needs to be red and have his head look like the red stack, with a rectangular prism body with the edge of the prism pointing forward
Arms and legs normal.
 
3:43 PM
@HostileFork I'm about to go on a 3-week plus holiday with restricted internet, but I have a few questions and observations:

1) I think the (C-XX) standardized /Core is of great value!
2) See 1
3) As you've gone through the C code, do you know anything about the task type?
 
@Maarten I know that when it was said that Rebol was changed to support threading, mostly what that meant was a separation such that global buffers that were used were divided into thread-local variables or program global variables.
In trying to squeeze out performance, Rebol would avoid doing allocations of temporary buffers and instead each thread of execution would re-use an already allocated buffer...effectively static or global...and these were reigned in.
 
So we live in a Rebol per core, do your own async logic then
 
In the sense that no other thread safety was put in, yes.
 
"Just like the good old days" ;-)
Yeah, I was dreaming of a make task! [ logic here ]
 
There has been talk of swiping Clojure's immutable series, and having that as a type that could be exchanged safely between threads.
Or possibly switching all of Rebol itself to use Clojure's model of what a series is.
Such that your modifications are seen only to the references that are given the modified version. Each modification effectively creating a new "view" into the series structure.
 
3:49 PM
I like that (clojure's model)
 
This would be quite disruptive, as a lot of Rebol depends on calling things that change stuff while you have references to the pre-modified stuff.
So a lot of code would have to be rewritten to give back the handles to modified things.
But I guess we'd have to see. I'd like more experiments to be done.
 
Agreed
 
So the more people who can read the code, and the more experiments they can try, the more we learn.
For right now, my priorities are grafting changes I did prior to Ren/C in.
 
Well, if only I understood the library interface in R3 (docs anyone), I could go on holiday
 
3:53 PM
@HostileFork thanks, but I meant the Rebol side. make struct, routine, and all their friends (datatypes in the dialect)
 
@Maarten Oh. LIBRARY! not reb-lib
 
Yup
I saw some tests in the Atronix repo, but that's harder to follow (or get complete)
 
@Maarten If you have a question and ask it on SO in the rebol tag, with the caveat that it is under Atronix/Ren-C, then someone might get to it... if not Shixin, I might be able to answer from the source (so might someone else)
 
That'll depend on play time/nabdwidth while on holiday then. Thanks again!
 
@Maarten Also, if you don't mind, could you pick a non-gravatar square and set your avatar? Whenever we see gravatars we have to go look to see if it's a new person or not.
 
3:59 PM
@Maarten If you're looking for more examples about library!, routine!, you can take a look at: github.com/zsx/c2r3
 
Though I meant to make a fake gravatar that is gray and geometric but still looks like a fork. So make one out of gravatar parts that seems almost as if it could be random.
 
@ShixinZeng thanks. And nice project, btw!
 
@Maarten I believe you should be able to find an example for almost any function types in there.
 
Is it still routine?
 
Yes
 
4:05 PM
And what are the types it accepts - structs, uint8, ...what is pointer?
string too?
@HostileFork avatar set
Nvm, I'll figure it out
 
pointer corresponds to any type of pointers in C
 
@Maarten Takes a while to propagate. Thanks!
 
So you can pass them around in R3 between functions. Got it.
@HostileFork yeah, should have done that before, sorry
 
string! is passed in as a pointer
 
And returned as string?
 
4:11 PM
No, strings in C are just pointers
 
@earl Incidentally, there's a bunch of UBSAN stuff about undefined behavior w.r.t. pointer alignments and shifting and other problems which may relate to you having trouble. On some processors these things just mean your accesses are slow, and on some they don't work at all.
I've got fixes for many of those I can put forward in the list of things to patch.
 
You need to keep in mind that you mapping a C function, and all data types should match what the C function expects and returns
and manage the memory, if you're passing pointers around
 
Does binary! proxy to a pointer?
 
yes, a binary! can be converted to a pointer
 
Ok, so that's "manual memory management"
 
4:15 PM
it's using the pointer to its internal data storage
 
Assuming it does not relocate due to expansion. :-/
 
No, I don't think it can expand in the C function, can it?
 
Depends on if the C function has access to the binary through some other direct or indirect route, and also whether the C function stores the pointer somewhere globally expecting to use it in some way in a later call.
 
Well, that all depends on how one designs the C functions
 
True, but part of the foreign function interface issue is you didn't design them.
Someone else did.
 
4:20 PM
OK, then what would a C programmer do in the scenario you just described?
 
Hm?
I'm just pointing out a mechanical issue. The mechanical issue is that if you pass a BINARY! in and give some third party a pointer to that binary's data, you have a managed code and unmanaged code gap
As for what a C programmer is to do about it, the C programmer doesn't do anything. Because the C programmer is not involved. There is only a Rebol programmer using a C DLL written by a C programmer they probably can't talk to.
So our question is more what the Rebol developer does, and what the implementers of Rebol do.
 
What I am trying to say, is that the function must be usable by C programmer
if a pointer is passed to a library and cached, the pointer is either can't be relocated by the application, or it can be reset
 
Yes, but a C programmer has explicit memory management. And there aren't arbitrary functions you call in C which may cause a GC of a pointer that you had malloc'd just because the GC happened to run. If you handed out a pointer, it's good until someone frees it.
The C library was written to C expectations, and some documentation that said who was responsible for freeing what when, etc.
So I'm not saying this complexity isn't there, just that when you try to use a Rebol tool in the managed world, you might have problems living by the contract that a C caller of the library would have an easier time of because their language is the expected caller and they have the necessary malloc, free, etc.
 
If you keep a reference to the binary, GC will not collect it
 
That is true, but that's something that has to be done... and also, it means you can't participate in contracts where you transfer responsibility for freeing the memory.
And if you keep that reference, you must be sure that you don't modify it. And in fact, that's a sort of "new" constraint on Rebol. Just because it didn't go around using idle time to compact overlarge series in the background (giving them new data pointers) doesn't mean that feature isn't interesting or shouldn't be implemented.
The requirement that underlying pointers don't change except on modification is one we haven't had yet as a guarantee.
So it suggests to me that there needs to be some sort of "lock" and "unlock" before passing a binary as a pointer, to formally say that's what you need.
 
4:30 PM
In that case, just call the C memory allocation function to allocate the memory and pass that to C functions
 
That's good, except for the problem of how you inspect into and work with that memory.
Which is part of the point of it being an "interface".
So I think using binaries is good, I just think it might be the case that a little more information about what you're doing be provided so the system doesn't move the pointers; yet have it free to do so in the general case.
 
If you provide lock and unlock mechanism, the rebol programmer still needs to explicitly invoke them, I think.
 
Yes. My point being that the interface not be willing to proxy a BINARY! unless it has been locked.
But we can think about that later, if it works for now and people get some experience, and we see more of what people are actually wanting to do...we can design for that instead of something abstract.
 
I think that's a good point
 
It's good just to have it working at all, for starters, and see how many platforms and scenarios it works on.
Let's see what people do on Mac, for instance.
We've already got at least two new mac users of the HTTPS and CALL...
 
4:37 PM
I think Linux kernel has similar concept between shared memory, which is called "SEAL"
 
I am doing some stuff with my personal projects right now, but I will soon try to rebuild Ren/C++ for greater good.
 
@rebolek will be wanting to move to Ren/C soon too... so once the people who actually use these things day to day get involved, there could be a lot more feedback on your work.
@ShixinZeng Hopefully your job is more fun now that people are paying attention and you have people to work with. :-)
Hopefully it balances out on the net positive in terms of decreasing the total amount of work you need to do...
 
Yep, it's more fun
2
 
Let's say you have a simple (contains only words) undecorated path P that if entered at the top level produces a valid result.
Skill-testing question: What can you say about P if I tell you that entering :P at the top level produces a different valid result?
 
@HostileFork For Lest, absolutely. For other work, it doesn't depend on me.
 
4:49 PM
Just to clarify, P is a meta-variable here, not a Rebol word.
 
Er... that P resolves to a function and calls it? :-/
 
@HostileFork Would that be equivalent to saying true = any-function? :P?
 
@rgchris Been thinking about construction syntax in a Plan-4 world and whether word!{foo} is enough or some other decorator is needed like word!:{foo}. I think I prefer the former, and a lot of it has to do with where we're trying to push cognition to see it as opening with token word!{ and ending with }. Separating word! from the { is counter to the goal.
And same for path![ seen as one thing and ] ending it.
@MarkI The string resolutions that append with path components may behave differently on get.
 
@HostileFork Nope.
 
Dunno what the current evaluator does but I think in my evaluator as rewritten it would be true = any-function? :P
 
4:56 PM
I just find it ... interesting ... that the only thing get-paths are good for is to get function values, and in doing that they throw away all of the function's refinements that are in the path.
 
@Morwenn As time permits...
I'm working on that.
 
@HostileFork I'm done pushing the stuff from the previous weeks, I will try the new build instructions now.
 
@HostileFork That would make yours behave the same way as the current evaluator does for this case then.
 
Yet upcoming a refined function will also be any-function?, which will be function?. (Or action? or whatever we decide the "one function typename" should be.)
 
Performer?
 
4:58 PM
Dr. Rebmu says "Call it F!"
So with TAG! as the new attribute-specifier, we can axe the closure and function distinction, because you just throw the tag in there to indicate the behavior.
foo: function [x <broken>] [...] could give you the current non-closure behavior. :-)
 
BTW HF, you haven't answered the b part of Question 4: how much better than any-word? is morpheme??
 
I'm going for symbol?.
 
I was too, until I realized that symbol means "non-letter character" or "heiroglyph".
 
I can live with that.
If the box comes with digit? letter? symbol? whitespace? then maybe not.
If there is a unicode category for it.
 
Might as well go with "term".
There is a Unicode category "symbol".
 
5:03 PM
Well, those would be nice to operate on character! I guess.
separator?/space
 
@HostileFork Including symbol?
 
I guess. But morpheme isn't the replacement though.
And the any-*? have to go.
 
@HostileFork I have to say I prefer the :, I'm really not a fan of smushed constructors.
 
So keep thinkin'
 
You can't say that unless and until you have something better to offer! :)
 
5:05 PM
Yes I can.
We're not picking restaurants in the car.
 
That's not argument, that's just contradiction! :) <-- note smiley
 
@MarkI 1) comments vs. discussion—semantic nitpicking. You'll get feedback!—Likely too from participants outside this room (raises language awareness as well), 1b) posting to Programmers doesn't set anything in stone, 2) Oneboxing means one good-looking link to your points that you can repost over and over—once your current messages are off-screen, they're harder to point to, 3) Programmers is a better location—sometimes good things emerge here, but more often good things get lost.
Note, this isn't room policy—just experience from a bitter history of attempted language design by chat room.
 
@rgchris Thanks, I do appreciate it. By Programmers, are you meaning programmers.stackexchange.com?
 
@rgchris But if they're smushed against a colon it's okay? That's too much collision with set-words, URLs. We have other options to go through, so as with morpheme... !path[a b c] ? Try, try again.
 
@MarkI Yep.
 
5:07 PM
@rgchris I am not there yet, sadly.
 
@HostileFork No—not ok, but better.
@MarkI You only need one point to post :)
 
path!.[a b c]
path!-[a b c]
path!=[a b c]
But you wind up with things looking too much like code.
 
@rgchris But I think I agree with you that here is not the place to put anything too long.
 
The thing about path![...] is precisely that it does look off. It should.
 
@MarkI Better than AltMe though :)
 
5:09 PM
Oh, building Ren/C didn't work.
 
@rgchris :)
 
@Morwenn What's it say?
 
nm: r3.exe: no symbols
 
That just means it stripped it
That's normal.
And it stripped it after building it with no -g
 
So it's normal for make to return 1?
 
5:11 PM
This is all slated for improvement, but if you got a r3.exe and it runs, that's the correct result.
 
Well, it's true that once r3.exe has built, everything should be fine. There should be a success message. Currently, it's quite misleading.
 
I'm only improving that which I can, I didn't write the original makefiles or any of it.
I'm all for it. :-)
I'm also in favor of it doing proper debug/release builds, using all the warnings I have turned on, using -Werror and such.
 
If ! wasn't used in tags, I'd love <path! foo bar>
 
Too competitive with tags.
 
@rgchris That's available! Only "<! XXX>" tags are taken.
 
5:13 PM
I know.
 
People need to remember that construction syntax is in a way a bad thing. We don't want to see it that often.
And the cases we do want to see will have nice forms like #(...)
We'd like to live in a world where people give their files nice names that can look pretty in Rebol even if typed in as words.
 
I still predict so long as there is construction syntax, we'll see it in scripts.
 
I just realized that get-word applied to a datatype has no purpose yet.
So we could define constructors like [:path! a b c]
 
length [:path! a b c] being 3 is bad mojo
 
@(path! foo bar)
 
5:15 PM
length path![a b c] being 3 is acceptable.
I think you just haven't seen the light yet, as I've looked at this for a while.
And I'm pretty sure it's good.
 
Believe me, I've been pondering this a long time too!
 
Ren/C++ does not build, it does not like coming@soon in the source :p
 
I tried type!:[...] for a while and it looks kind of all right standalone, but not quite a win.
@Morwenn Ah, recent. Let me fix that...
This is what happens with it tracking master. So the question is when critical mass is hit where we start the git flow master/develop stuff.
 
[ none!() logic!(true) logic!(false) ]
if value = none!() [return logic!(false)]
unset!() = print "Foo"
 
Not too bad.
Another thing I want to do is get rid of the MOLD/ALL and SAVE/ALL. /ALL should be the only thing it does.
 
5:24 PM
hm...
 
Basically, if any functionality of something can be considered /BROKEN it shouldn't be in there.
I'm still a little grumpy about not being able to find a way to make closures fast.
 
@HostileFork No worse than length? #[block! [1 2]] being 2
And please, HF, give up on the length not length? thing. Users are going to slug you when their length variables fail.
I volunteer to continuously debate this issue with you until you concede :)
 
@MarkI We're not going to have ? mean "returns a value because we were going name things out of the way". It's for yes/no questions. So it's either length-of or length, to go along with head, tail, back, next, etc. I'm sure people might have had variables called next.
Your volunteerism is accepted, but this is not a personal crusade.
It's frequent enough to deserve length instead of length-of I'd expect, and the variables can be called len.
foo: [a b c]
len: length foo
print first back tail foo
length-of is noisy.
foo: [a b c]
length: length-of foo
print first back tail foo
 
"Choose function names that are verbs or nouns followed by question mark." What's wrong with that? Next is a verb (adverb).
 
HEAD and TAIL are not verbs.
 
5:33 PM
"len" is illiterate. I for one do not wish to force illiteracy on the Rebol user base.
@HostileFork Yes they are. Both of them.
 
@rebolek I take it by that you're similarly not sold?
 
@rgchris Show me a case where mold not producing something that is legal input to LOAD is a good thing
 
Deep breath. Sorry, hot-button topic for me. Serenity now. The world spins on. No-one cares if length has a question mark.
 
@HostileFork I just meant on the syntax—I'm fine with the /ALL suggestion...
 
5:39 PM
@rgchris well, it's not love at first sight :-)
 
# is still open for literal NONE!
 
@rgchris So are we heading towards a world where mold is to form as save is to write?
Not critiquing, just asking.
 
@Morwenn Fixed (actually fixed, ate lunch, forgot I hadn't posted the chat message to tell you). :-) github.com/metaeducation/ren-cpp/commit/…
 
@HostileFork Well yeah, I had already pulled and it's currently building.
In rebol-function.cpp, it does not find R_OUT line 17.
 
@Morwenn Ah yes, Ren/C push too. Sigh. (You have to merge up there as well, probably not need to rebuild)
 
5:44 PM
@MarkI Not certain if that's what I'd suggested, but I think serialization should be done by a word without refinement.
 
@HostileFork Hey, at least, building the whole stuff is becoming increasingly easy :)
 
Yup, I'm hoping people with make and cmake fu continue to focus on that bit. I was just happy to get the generated makefile into the .gitignore
 
@MarkI Re your (3): depends on what you define "string-type" to be.
Wah, this freaking CHANGE-DIR upon script execution has to go ...
 
@earl It's always a surprise! Isn't that so the current script is run from it's own context though?
(filesystem context)
 
@rgchris Yes, it's to make it "easier" to refer to things co-located in the same directory as the running script.
 
5:55 PM
@earl Series of numbers each represented as characters and all smooshed together?
 
@rgchris Unfortunately, it's fundamentally broken when you add command-line invocation to the mix.
 
Argh, even that won't work, you could say binaries are represented as pairs of characters, not just characters.
Or, indeed, groups of binary values represented as groups of characters, depending on the input base.
 
Would there be major opposition if we got rid of that <expletive> and <expletive> auto-change-dir behaviour?
 
@HostileFork New error again, host-lib.h in Ren/C is missing a #include <stddef.h> to properly use size_t. I've no idea what file I have to change since it seems to be a generated header.
 
I still think they belong together. Lexically there is not that much difference.
Particularly since I want strings to have a lot of the free-form aspects that binaries enjoy.
 
6:00 PM
@Morwenn Hmm. There are a lot of definitions host-lib.h takes for granted at the moment. Rebol's include system doesn't use guards and it's a lot of auto-generation, all stuff that needs review. But what happens if you #include <stdlib.h> in this file ahead of the two other includes? github.com/metaeducation/ren-cpp/blob/develop/src/rebol-binding/…
 
I already manually added a #include <stddef.h> and it makes the thing compile.
Well, in host-lib.h though.
 
@Morwenn One thing about trying to control this massive variance in platforms and create an "abstraction layer" to run even on ornery old systems, is to try and set up and control the includes like that in one location. So sys-core.h and reb-host.h are the "environment", essentially. That way host-table.inc has all its necessary defines ready for all the things like REBYTE and otherwise.
 
Also, I've got an undefined reference to App_Instance. It feels like a regression.
 
My question would be about where this environment wasn't set before including host-lib and I think the OS table C file might be the culprit, so if an #include <stddef.h> there fixes it.
Hmmm...
Windows windows, sigh.
 
Haha :D
 
6:06 PM
@earl What's the workaround? Prefix every file with some system/thing? Or "just say no" to scripts knowing their directory?
 
But we already had the problem with Ren/C++ and fixed it a while ago. The fix may have been in what is now Ren/C.
 
The conditional changed from TO_WIN32 to TO_WINDOWS
That could be it.
 
@MarkI No workaround (or only prohibitively expensive ones), in some cases. So change the default, and have scripts to the additional work, if they want to reference relative to "their" path.
 
(Now supporting 64-bit)
 
@MarkI Currently, there is system/options/path, which gives you the current working directory before Rebol did its auto-cd to the script's directory.
There is also system/script/path, which gives you the script's directory.
 
6:11 PM
@Morwenn So let's see if fixing that fixes it: github.com/metaeducation/ren-cpp/commit/…
 
Following scenario. Command-line invocation:
$ make/r3 src/tools/tool.r src/core/test.c
Use cases:
1. tool.r wants to read src/tools/util.r
2. tool.r wants to read the file passed as argument (so src/core/test.c)
 
3. tool.r wants to launch another R3 process running the same R3 that was used to run tool.r
Vary the make/r3 invocation to more possibilities: absolute path (/usr/local/bin/r3) and search-path based (r3, up to the shell where that is taken from).
(See you later!)
 
Won't that just force people to add "change-dir system/script/path" to every script, causing the same issues?
Finally, couldn't you just do the reverse, change-dir back to system/options/path at the top of your tool.r?
@rgchris What was the objection to serialize do you remember? Too long maybe?
 
@MarkI Yeah—too long, too many syllables.
Don't mind it myself.
 
6:20 PM
@HostileFork Sorry, I'm synchronizing my old branch with your new master, just in case.
 
@rgchris I just want to record, somewhere, what the objections were, and if they were the only objections.
If serialize was shorter and had only one syllable, it would be perfect, do you agree?
Well, I suppose I'd have to add "and was a really cool-sounding word with no other connotations", so, I'm dreaming again.
 
But then I don't have a problem with mold either :)
 
@rgchris I have that "problem" as well :)
(Problem being, it is a problem that we don't have a problem)
Makes it difficult to come up with "better" alternatives.
Maybe we'll stumble across a good-enough one one day though. Hope springs eternal and all that rot ...
 
@HostileFork I've submitted a fix, now it builds (module the include stuff which will have to be fixed somehow but since the headers organieation seems tricky, I'll let that one to you).
 
Though if people don't like morpheme?, there's something wrong with the universe :)
 
6:29 PM
@Morwenn Cool, thanks! Tests pass, workbench run?
 
Workbench, you mean Ren Garden?
Tests pass.
 
Well it's still workbench.exe I guess. Or maybe it got renamed somewhere. :-) But yup.
Did you do this for 32-bit or 64-bit?
 
32 bits.
I didn't try to build it. Since I changed my compiler to GCC 5.1, I'd have to fetch the appropriate Qt build.
 
@Adrian was trying 64-bit and having trouble with position-independent-code flags.
 
I'm not sure that I have a 64-bit compiler (that's what you get when you change it twice a year).
i686, that's a 32-bit compiler.
 
6:36 PM
Well, no worries, good to have a windows build up and going...the 64-bit will happen when it happens :-)
 
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