« first day (1723 days earlier)      last day (2057 days later) » 
00:00 - 17:0017:00 - 00:00

12:01 AM
I don't think there's any pressing need to be this revisionist.
 
It's just stuff that winds up getting git cloned and if it was additions and removals of things that aren't really used and aren't intended to be a concern of the project, then I think the history is covered fine in R3/View's log. That's where that code lives.
I'd like people to be able to fork Ren/C and fork R3/View and not have a problem on GitHub.
But we can do it the reverse and have R3/View be the one that un-hinges
 
Hopefully so. Otherwise, that would be a killer argument for any friendly cooperation between forks.
(But even then, you can have that with just tricking Github's shortcomings, and not be revisionist and cut the Git history.)
 
@earl Well, it's not of super pressing import ATM to me either way, as current agenda is on other things. I have two fixes ready to try. Are you still figuring the rewrite and I should commit them, or should I hold off?
 
Feel free to commit.
No impact on the rewrite whatsoever, atm.
$ git log --pretty="format:%H <%e>" | grep -v '<>'
1ca517f00852248e413d96a36b2c5ba86bbeccf2 <cp1251>
2a0c9f8028ba9671b4a118570fe114adf5f33bef <cp1251>
b13af70c14a654fc81c587994a51a8f40dffa7f5 <cp1251>
0eec0cd12b2cf58182606ecc93c15fbe89ca3e39 <cp1251>
221d10cc33f70e4d3109e3af909f084cee69c368 <cp1251>
20b9cd59c6c6a1a2bccfb2ddb9af68c083a28698 <cp1251>
List of commits with an explicit encoding header.
github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/commit/… is a manual merge of Saphirion's line (@54b92b365de72b6c3b09eb603ea379e57e83456a) with mainline as of 4d9840f8e661e7067472e828ee6ad8dd3008b247.
At this point, mainline already contained the last offending encoding commit.
So what I'm trying now is setting up a graft point to make the saphirion/mainline merge at above point explicit.
And then rewrite from after that grafted commit.
That should then have a sensible answer to what "after" that commit means, and not touch the stupid encoding commits.
 
12:17 AM
Looking forward to it, as it is now looking like something that I'm glad I didn't try figuring out any more than I did, because I do not know git anywhere near that well.
 
Preliminary test looks promising. Fully stable commit IDs with an identity rewrite.
 
12:34 AM
I think that without those annoying cp1251-encoded commits, your rewrite should have "just worked", btw.
With the more comprehensive rewrite we sever our cords with Atronix/Saphirion's history (which we have to do anyway, because it's Atronix commits we want to rewrite) while keeping the connection with rebol/rebol and rebolsource/r3.
But maye we can get Shixin to do the same rewrite over all Atronix branches; I think this should restore the connection.
Will have to look into git-replace tomorrow, maybe we can even prepare that the be almost fully automatic.
 
@earl I'd imagine my standards are mostly lower than yours for this, the only thing being that I really want the simple mainstream tools (git blame via GitHub interface, etc) to work right.
And have no tabs.
 
@HostileFork Toolwise, I want at least a fighting chance for git-bisect to work.
 
@rgchris So I think #21 and #22 fixed...if so things are looking to move quite a bit quicker...
 
Evening.
 
@iceflow19 Hey. earl is working on that rewrite, turned out to be something mean with the character encoding...
 
12:44 AM
@HostileFork Any experience what happens on Github after a filter-branch --all and then force-pushing the rewritten branches back to Github?
 
@earl The only thing that seemed to go awry is the possibility of making new pingbacks, as new commit IDs carry the #XXX
And leaving the old ones there.
And of course, everyone having to fetch and reset --hard
I don't think anyone has outstanding changes at this moment.
I pushed what I had.
 
@HostileFork I saw. I just got done catching up on the chat log. Better @earl than I. My shell and git-fu are nowhere near his level. My background is mostly with TFS.
 
If you caught up, I'm required to come up with at least one radical proposal every few days... the newest member of the idea pen is "Lit-Bit"
 
Though I have gotten better with git since I started working at my current place of employment.
 
@HostileFork Do you think there's any chance that you find the exact commands you used to rewrite out the binary file stuff? Or do you think you'd be able to reproduce it perfectly off the top of your head?
 
12:49 AM
I wonder if I can get a "I heart the lit-bit" shirt made... ;-)
 
@earl I remember I believe that I followed this: dalibornasevic.com/posts/…
@iceflow19 It's something not terribly hard to try out to see what sort of issues it might bring up. A lot easier to try than NewPath
 
True. Whats your thoughts on replacing object! with context! I like context better, and when I've taught rebol to my friends I typically like to talk about things in terms of contexts rather than objects (to much OOP baggage).
 
@iceflow19 Having worked more with the internals of the system, I need to rethink what I have thought in the past.
Rebol has a number of below-the-surface properties that may seem a bit crazy, but are simply part of the mechanics of it. For instance, if you have a "base class" of an object and then make a "derived class" of an object, the derived one is a new "context".
And as we know, words contain a symbol ID and (if they have a binding) a pointer to the context where they are looked up.
So now we face the somewhat odd truth that each time you instantiate a "derived" object which wants to get the functions in its base class object, it needs to copy the bodies of those functions and rebind them to the derived context.
Because a word instance can only point to one context+symbolID.
The way that Rebol3 lets you add (but not remove) new fields to an object is also wacky.
 
1:08 AM
Look, ma, no address sanitiser issue reference spam: github.com/earl/r3/commit/…
 
@earl Coolio.
 
For posteriority, here's what I did:
1. Set up three graft points, to properly associate commits we "know" are merges with the things they merge. This is to whip the DAG in the proper shape:
# saphirion manual merge                 mainline parent (to be grafted)          saphirion parent (existing)
76e743cc4f63e75c6a2d821299305b114bbc1a74 4d9840f8e661e7067472e828ee6ad8dd3008b247 54b92b365de72b6c3b09eb603ea379e57e83456a
1d989a38edab3dbbfa92a003b2b79e0e1c70c88e 6a79a7b3763cee2162cfacc9443e3ac8f315595d 4a308846101d88bfb901fc5af623a6c0157ec88f
7b0fbc72739550bb93f9e7cc9709a511a9828177 a6077e890a063097a9f1140ce8e73cd9b34a3682 7705ded504e1b07d55c63ad6477f7060a689fa87
(This is put into .git/info/grafts.)
2. Run a non-filtering rewrite, to actually rewrite this graft information into the corresponding commits:
$ git-filter-branch -f -- 7b0fbc72739550bb93f9e7cc9709a511a9828177..
I manually start this at 7b0fbc72739550bb93f9e7cc9709a511a9828177 (the chronologically & topologically "first" of above graft points), to avoid the problematic encoding commits mentioned above.
It is only now, that the descriptive information in .git/info/grafts is materialised into actual commits. After that rewrite, all "saphirion" commit IDs mentioned in the graft points will have changed (as will, of course, all "saphirion"/"atronix" commit IDs topologically after them).
3. Finally, a filtering rewrite that actually rewrites the desired commit messages:
$ git filter-branch -f --msg-filter 'sed -e "s/#\([0-9]\+ \)/\1/"' -- 4d9840f8e661e7067472e828ee6ad8dd3008b247..
This last step still needs some fine-tuning, to make sure that it's really only the asan commit messages that are rewritten.
 
I'd be willing to accept the collateral damage if some other line starting with # had the # go away, if it saves you time.
 
Ah, see, that's already very helpful :)
Constraining the replacement to lines starting with # (modulo whitespace) is probably already enough.
 
@HostileFork My outlook tends to be more theoretical. That of a context being a group of lexemes with bound semantic values. I think that approaching things from an object is oblique to the story Rebol is trying to tell about the power of language and language oriented programming. I feel all of the traditional OOP models can be constructed with the more fundamental linguistic tools which Rebol provides.
 
1:23 AM
@iceflow19 I have a feeling almost any language can construct any other. :-)
 
@HostileFork Perhaps but no-one ever said that such constructions are always efficient or without unnecessary complexity.
 
@HostileFork Yep, starting with # seems a sufficient restriction.
So the third command becomes:
3. Finally, a filtering rewrite that actually rewrites the desired commit messages:
$ git filter-branch --force --msg-filter 'sed -e "s/\(^\s*\)#\([0-9]\+ \)/\1\2/"' -- 4d9840f8e661e7067472e828ee6ad8dd3008b247..
(Ah the beauty of regexes ... :)
So, want to wreak rewrite havoc on the repository?
 
@earl Sounds good to me.
Shixin might miss all the free advertising...
 
Well, fingers crossed
 
I guess part of the pre-commit hook should be "doesn't appear to ping more than 3 issues on GitHub"
 
1:31 AM
Solid idea.
Force-push of master incoming ...
$ git push -f
Counting objects: 7318, done.
Delta compression using up to 4 threads.
Compressing objects: 100% (1542/1542), done.
Writing objects: 100% (7318/7318), 2.43 MiB | 366.00 KiB/s, done.
Total 7318 (delta 5876), reused 6186 (delta 5754)
To git@github.com:metaeducation/ren-c
 + 2153e20...3a13c84 master -> master (forced update)
$
master done.
 
Arrite so... that rewrote multiple branches, is there a command to fetch them all and reset them all? Or just re-clone?
 
For now, that just rewrote a single branch.
 
@earl So the reason we still see the old is because the other branches haven't been rewritten?
 
Yes, for one.
And also, because Github's garbage collection has not yet run.
 
@iceflow19 We've had some runarounds with wording and trying to figure out the right words for things. If you built a recent version, look at wrap
 
1:45 AM
So, I'll rewrite the other 4 branches next.
 
>> x: 10 y: wrap [x: 20 x + 11] print [x y]
10 31
Originally requested by me under the name "scope".
 
Strange that wrap and use have different sources considering the similarities...
 
@HostileFork I'll refork my copy of ren-c after @earl is done rewriting. In the meantime do you have a link to a source file containing the implementation of wrap?
 
>> source use
use: make function! [[
    "Defines words local to a block."
    vars [block! word!] "Local word(s) to the block"
    body [block!] "Block to evaluate"
][
    apply make closure! reduce [to block! vars copy/deep body] []
]]
>> source wrap
wrap: make function! [[
    {Evaluates a block, wrapping all set-words as locals.}
    body [block!] "Block to evaluate"
][
    do bind/copy/set body make object! 0
]]
 
Thanks
 
1:49 AM
@rgchris Well, making and calling a closure is really more or less making an object, as that's how closures treat their arguments.
 
There's no more direct method of creating an object from a block of words?
 
convert the words to set-words, put a none after them. bind the body to that.
 
Right, just thought there might be a function that does that.
 
closure is pretty close.
 
do bind/copy/set body make object! collect [foreach word vars [keep to set-word! word]]
 
1:54 AM
$ git push -f
Counting objects: 10, done.
Delta compression using up to 4 threads.
Compressing objects: 100% (4/4), done.
Writing objects: 100% (10/10), 2.40 KiB | 0 bytes/s, done.
Total 10 (delta 9), reused 6 (delta 6)
To git@github.com:metaeducation/ren-c
 + 38e2327...8cd1983 coherence-1.5 -> coherence-1.5 (forced update)
(coherence-1.5 updated.)
 
@rgchris Collect is pretty heavy...in that it's not a native and has lots of little operations and function creation. So if you can use closure you at least get into the C code pretty quickly.
@earl I don't know how long it will be necessary to keep that branch around
 
I'll have to temporarily restore the already-merged atronix-split, rewrite, and then delete again. Please bear with me :)
 
Making collect a native is probably worthwhile. I agree that it is very useful. Though it's nice to see that you can write such things on your own.
The idea of splice by default and then /only to not splice is something I've come to feel is right, but it made me wonder if when you're using something like map-each and your result is a block...wouldn't it be more consistent to splice unless you used map-each/only (or something?)
 
do bind/copy/set body make object! map-each word vars [to set-word! word]
MAP-EACH is native...
missed the above comment :)
 
Hm. USE doesn't check its block parameter, just hands it to the closure. You can put documentation... get-args, lit-args, refinements...
 
2:02 AM
Interesting. Although with WRAP as standard, I'd have less use for USE.
 
Ok, all branches rewritten. Good luck with updating your clones, everyone.
 
Arigatou
 
@earl Easiest way to update is to clone, clone again...
But awesome. Now we just have to try and make sure all those pings get cleared up.
I guess first order of business is to see if they can be GC'd.
 
Which means waiting a while ... :/
 
Or if we can be sure we can't see that "old" commit, somehow.
9
Q: Does GitHub garbage collect dangling commits referenced in pull requests?

davidchambersThe following situation arises from time to time… I git checkout -b experiment, commit some experimental changes, and open a pull request. After some discussion, the pull request is rejected. If I were now to delete the remote branch, would this render the diff inaccessible at some point, o...

There's nothing so valuable at this point in the Ren/C repo that I wouldn't be willing to wipe it and start over.
The description for Coherence 1.5 was pretty much turned into the README.md
 
2:09 AM
Yeah, those pull request references are one open issue.
The other are pre-rewrite ren-c-based branches in other repositories.
Not sure if nuking the (Github) repository and starting afresh would help speed up that clean-up.
 
@earl Well I think before asking for them to clean up the pings it would be good if we didn't have any of the offending commits around that we can get tidied.
 
Unfortunately, there's a gazillion of those commits around :/
No idea where that is still referenced.
 
Hmmm... it says 177 forks of zsx/r3 : github.com/zsx/r3/network
But of those, the only ones with any divergence are known parties
 
That's 177 forks of rebolsource/r3, the network zsx/r3 is part of.
 
Oh. I see.
I thought that at minimum, GitHub should look at the date of a commit and the date of an issue and assume the commit comment wouldn't refer to issues in the future.
 
2:20 AM
I've a pretty wide-ranging set of remotes in one local clone; can't find 758d80000946f4f4dec474ccd4f9f9a0f2ac79d0 in any of them.
That makes me doubt Github's GC and related cleanup a bit.
 
Im going to take a look at the issue api and see if there's any way to delete the connection through the api...
 
Good thought.
 
Well, at least ren-c won't produce new spam with those old commits.
With that, I'll leave it for now. See you around.
 
If there is then we can exercise the spam (sort of) in rebol/rebol and rebolsource.
 
Thanks much, seeyou hopefully soon!
I think suggesting to github a heuristic about not letting you ping more than 3 issues in a commit, and if you do then you ping none.
As well as the no pinging the future
>> x: 10 use [{The string is okay, but...} x [integer!]] [x: 20] print x
** Script error: -apply- does not allow none! for its x argument
** Where: apply use
** Near: apply make closure! reduce [to block! vars copy/deep body] [...
Leaky abstraction.
 
2:27 AM
If you could combine map-each and remove-each then you could also have string comments in use...
 
Hmm?
 
If map-each had a way to leave none or unset values out...
map-each word [word "comment"][if word? word [to set-word! word]]
== [word:]
I guess it doesn't matter. Anything that isn't a word would just be none, so with that you could have comments...
do bind/copy/set body make object! map-each word vars [if word? word [to set-word! word]]
 
Ah, I see.
 
Or...
 
So it looks like you can get to the data through the github issue events api. But its read/only.
 
2:36 AM
Well, not so sure—didn't understand the bind/copy/set part, hold on...
 
@iceflow19 Well we may have to get GitHub support to do something about it. In a sense, this is their problem because their heuristics need to be able to deal with things like this.
And at least you should be able to say you don't want pingbacks from somebody, or delete them if they happen.
 
bind/copy/set map-each word vars [if word? word [to set-word! word]] context: make object! 0 do bind/copy body :context
Hm, a bit wordy. Prefer:
do bind/copy body make object! map-each word vars [if word? word [to set-word! word]]
 
For a real implementation I think it needs to error on non-words
do bind/copy body make object! map-each word vars [unless word? word [do make error! "..."] to set-word! word]
 
@HostileFork True. I don't know if you were aware but there is a github api for a repo's webhooks.
 
@HostileFork You don't think there's a place for doc strings in a USE block?
use [test "For Testing Purposes" bar "Used by the FOO loop" some other stuff][...]
 
2:43 AM
@rgchris I don't know that I have strong opinions on that. There are plenty of operations for which you aren't allowed to put arbitrary things in it and have no side effects.
use [
    test ; for testing purposes
    bar ; used by the foo loop
etc.
 
Me either, just musing as you'd suggested it :)
 
@HostileFork @earl Could we add a hook to rewrite incoming pull requests to get rid of '#' from their messages?
After all pull requests are just hidden branches on the repo.
 
Well I was just pointing out that throwing a unchecked block in as a closure spec has some consequences. When you build one abstraction on another and do that kind of thing, you get weirdness.
Anyway... zzzz. Productive day everyone, would be nice to see momentum keep up. I want to get to mining out the bugfixes and rewrites and such now, but keep using it and pointing out problems as they occur.
 
Good stuff, again.
 
Nvm what I was looking was actually the api for creating github web hooks, not hooks that you can put in a git repo directly...
 
 
5 hours later…
7:50 AM
1
Q: REBOL3 - what is the difference between the different branches?

MaartenWHat are the differences between the different Rebol 3 branches, especially with the new REN branch? Is it the platforms they'll run on, the feature set, code organization, c standard compliance???

 
8:15 AM
posted on July 20, 2015 by mbk

Just type what in the console..... >> what ** Script error: cannot use length? on word! value ** Where: length? if foreach what ** Near: length? word

 
8:52 AM
Hello @Maarten... welcome. Note you can set your avatar in chat here to something besides the default "gravatar"
Sometimes it takes a little time for the main site reputation to propagate to chat, once you get the 20 points minimum to prove you're not a spammer :-)
 
 
4 hours later…
1:20 PM
0
A: REBOL3 - what is the difference between the different branches?

HostileForkThis is an answer destined to become outdated, hence set to Community Wiki. This information is as of Jul-2015. So if updating this answer after some time has passed, please modify the date as well. Binary download of Rebol3 from rebol.com Last build was 5-Mar-2011 and pre-dates the open sou...

 
1:45 PM
End of the night. Finally I have my mac running linux which is much better :)
Started playing with this code golf puzzle, but I'm too tired to finish it
17
Q: Is it simple or is it hard?

DJ McMayhemFor your hard thing to do, you must make a thing for a computer to do that finds out if some words are explained in a simple way. Something is explained in a simple way if it only uses the ten hundred most used words. If not, it is explained in a hard way. This can be a full computer thing or par...

Assuming the provided list of words is in a file named t and the file you are checking is a named a then this gets close, but then I read that punctuation should be ignored so "don't" == "dont" which this does not do
exclude map-each x split read/string %a charset" ,'"[to-word x]load %t
 
@johnk Don't submit non Plan-4 solutions as Rebol. Save them for Rebmu. :-)
Were you around when I explained the Rebmu vs. Rebmu/D preprocessor trick for Plan -4?
 
Good idea. This isn't a solution yet, just switching off at the end of the night with puzzle time.
 
@johnk @draegtun Does some Code Golf duty --^ if you want help. :-)
I need to get the new Rebmu release done. :-(
All this sidetracking.
 
I remember reading about plan -4, but if you asked me to explain it without google help I would struggle :-)
 
a[b][c] is equivalent to a[b] [c] and a[b] might have special meaning such that this is distinct from a [b][c]
 
1:55 PM
I really should be on bot duty and building ren-c, but sometimes housekeeping has to be done
 
So ](, ][, )[, and )( will have an implicit space between them.
But all other sequences require "outer space"
 
Yes, that makes sense (at least in terms of minimal impact to existing code styles)
 
[a b c]d e f, for instance, is not legal (or more accurately, is reserved for a potential distinct menaing from [a b c] d e f). But [a b c](d e f) is the same as [a b c] (d e f) and [a b c][d e f] is the same as [a b c] [d e f].
Wreaks havoc on poor Rebmu though. All those spaces now mandatory!
Which is why Rebmu splits into two forms. Rebmu takes in strings that it preprocesses into Rebmu/D (the Rebmu (D)ialect)
 
][ everywhere would be broken with enforced outer space (where everywhere is somewhat limited)
 
And the rule for Rebmu/D is... reverse the bias.
"a [b c d]" incoming to Rebmu becomes "a[b c d]" in Rebmu/D
"a[b c d]" incoming to Rebmu becomes "a [b c d]" in Rebmu/D :-)
 
1:59 PM
not exactly what we need for golfing :-/
 
So if something is taking advantage of Plan -4 to make a special meaning for token[block] or token"string", you get that in Rebmu by introducing a space, not omitting it.
Well, Rebol wasn't going to win Code Golf as is very often with all those long words
 
what is "Plan -4" ?
 
Thanks for the recap, but must sleep now (and my laptop too - still a few battery life tweaks to go before she is completely finished)
 
@moliad Described above. You once debated strongly with Ladislav over whether "everything should be spaced" I recall. But he wanted a proposal that we might have called "Complete Outer Space". No exceptions.
Plan -4 from Outer Space plays on Plan 9 from Outer Space, by suggesting there are 4 exceptions in which outer space is not required.
The four named above. This means you can write while [condition][code] but not while[condition][code] for instance
 
there is a related CC ticket chat to that, no?
 
is while[condition][code] currently not legal in R3 ?
 
It is currently legal. But also, #[none] is different from # [none], which is in the body of "things we needed to look at"
And being able to glue a modifier in front of a block or tag or string is useful and ties into several other proposals, even if that modifier has meaning standing alone.
Plan -4 seems to hold promise for something that one can build an intuition about and works with the body of practices of how people actually code.
 
I don't get why people still think of rebol as a tokenized language. there is no separator in Rebol. its all based on the lexical specification of each type. Space is not different than any other character for any datatype.
some allow it, some don't. it is completely "in-place" specific... i.e. where you're at in the string being parse determines what each character means going forward (including space and other "delimiters"... even if rebol doesn't really have delimiters in the purest of sense.
yes I remember that discussion. I gave up in the end.
its like trying to explain binding and contexts to people in other language. Rebol does it completely differently. the same goes for its lexical analysis.
 
I think there is value in saying that there are spaces between datatypes, even if not all spaces are datatype separators.
And then saying 4 exceptions. It's not a bad thing to pin down some rules.
 
one of the first things I want to do R&D over is to allow run-time control over the built-in lexical parser. allow new types with their own lexical types and even change how current datatypes are read.
 
2:12 PM
I'd like to see a competent and complete formulation of what is there before extending it.
The problem with putting hooking mechanisms into something that hasn't been shown to be able to cohere and hold water before the hooks were added is that you will generally just wind up with even more of a mess.
While things are still under one roof and we can control and design them, we should see how far we can get with that.
 
how I'd like to approach it is to give a broad idea of how it works, then break down each type's full lexical rules. (like in the Rebol parser repository).
 
I just proposed this "Lit-Bit" idea for instance. Taking "literalness" away from being a property only available to WORD! and PATH! so that there is no LIT-WORD! or LIT-PATH!, just a literal? test you can apply in addition to the type, and a set-literal foo true or set-literal foo false
Then thinking, hm, wouldn't it be neat if you could compose [(1 + 2) '(3 + 4)] and get [3 (3 + 4)]?
e.g. there may be uses of Lit-bit that are more interesting dialect wise than just getting a shortcut for QUOTE. It could... as LIT-WORD is sometimes used... be an arbitrary dialect tinker-toy for doing rad things.
 
@HostileFork architecture of complex stuff like this is what I do for a living. I'm pretty sure I can get a decent (even if complex to use... this is not intended for beginners)
 
Well, the parts are there.
There is less barrier to trying ideas than before, and hopefully less as we move on.
 
the lit bit idea I have already expressed once a long time ago. Its a great idea... and lexically, it works without changing any current Rebol code.
 
2:18 PM
I don't believe you should be able to lit-bit a quoted string. '"foo" is too easy to miss.
 
same goes for Get, Set, and issues. there are a few characters we could use transparently before ANY other lexical form and make them properties.
 
So they'd all be forced to '{foo} for loading and molding if you wanted it.
 
@HostileFork well there are cases where using {} is VERY unwieldy. the same goes for "" which is why I like we have the choice. Using ' should be automatically highlighted by any decent Editor... so in the real world, the impact is minimal. if one uses very low-end editors, then they have a reason and/or probably won't get into such advanced features.
 
Well one needs to draw up a complete formalization of it. Rightly or wrongly, I feel there's something a bit different about lit-bit than get-bit and set-bit. But this is where having a lot of people building and trying is worthwhile.
I'm interested specifically in Rebol's properties for non-IDE systems. Code on paper. If one is to use advanced abstracted editors, the sky is the limit, and speaking of what people do or have done for a living... I did that.
A system in which you could name absolutely everything "A" and just make all the pointers in your codebase (be it C++ or whatever) be correct, use highlighting tools or project their "primary key" serial numbers...
Connect references to the declaration you mean with the mouse, if you like.
Lay out the code in nested boxes graphically instead of braces. Turn your logic expressions into circuit diagrams with little and gates and inverters with the expressions sitting on the ends.
Been there and done that. Really.
 
@HostileFork yep I saw your work on that.
 
2:23 PM
And so when I think of Rebol it's the anti that
 
but syntax highlighting is nothing fancy. and in any case, if you think you'd get mixed up with '"" then just use '{} .
 
The Functional Reactive Programming guy worked down the hall, and wasn't very interested in what we were doing, because "Haskell was the only tool he needed"
Causing my coworker to grumble and say "Yes, it will be millions of years from now, and we will all have evolved into beings of pure light..."
"...typing code into text editors."
In a way, me messing with Rebol is trying to make that bizarre idea a reality. :-)
 
well, we already got FRP with liquid. its all there, even a dialect called fluid :-)
 
Well, publish publish. That's what one has to do.
 
for now its rebol implemented, but finishing my C implementation of it is one of the first large projects I have to do for my company to use R3.
its all on github... it has been availble for almost a decade now?
 
2:29 PM
If it's Rebol2 I've not followed it.
 
Hi, I need some help. Trying rebol.com/article/0020.html
 
Your presentation from Recode needed to be edited and put up! I was a bit distracted trying to get things to work and missed being able to watch.
 
db: make block! 10000
new-record: func [n] [
reduce [
join "user" n reduce [
random 10000 random "abcdefghijklmn" random 24:00
]
]
]
repeat n 10000 [append db new-record n]

t1: now/precise
loop 10000 [select db "user9999"]
t2: now/precise
print difference t2 t1

;But, if you convert it to a hash first:

hash: checksum to-binary db
exit
t1: now/precise
loop 10000 [select hash "user9999"]
t2: now/precise
print difference t2 t1
$ ./r3-64-view-linux hash.reb
0:00:01.877377
** Script error: invalid argument: [5031 "fielkbmgjahdnc" 9:10:23]
** Where: to to-binary do either either either -apply-
** Near: to binary! :value
why does this happen?
 
Note the code was presumably posted long before Rebol3, as that's article #20
 
@HostileFork The github repo has the version I ported to R3 a few years back... only the slim-libs/slim.reb and liquid-libs/liquid.reb are ported to R3, but they seemed to work at least to a point in my tests. :-)
 
2:33 PM
@HostileFork: the only line I changed was the one of 'to-hash', that I changed to checksum to-binary'
 
@Luis Well, you can't really turn a block directly into a binary.
But also, the original code wasn't calculating a hash value.
It was physically transforming the BLOCK! into a kind of accelerated lookup block that Rebol had known as a HASH!
So TO-HASH wasn't CALCULATE-HASH-VALUE-OF-BLOCK. It was MAKE-A-SPECIALLY-HASHED-INDEX-BLOCK-TYPE-CALLED-HASH-OUT-OF-THIS-ORDINARY-BLOCK
That feature is replaced by MAP! in Rebol3 with no equivalent, and I have some suggestions on a HINT primitive that would allow you to tell Rebol hints about access patterns you intend to use on something like a BLOCK! while not changing its type.
 
yep and that was removed in R3. and it will come back eventually, probably as a property of block! cause we need this where I work.
 
It doesn't make much sense to create something that's "just like block! in interface, but a bit faster for some accesses" and then prohibit passing it to routines that take BLOCK! because it's a different type.
 
yep. I agree.
 
So Red, by virtue of bringing hash back as a separate type, went and made the same mistake again.
What I like about a HINT interface is that you can add them and then pay attention to or ignore them. No semantic difference, just performance tweaks that if they become really important they go in. And if they prove not so important you just do nothing.
 
2:41 PM
all the hash! does is built a hashing table (24bit max), to the block. then when any of the indirect access actions are used, it does a hash lookup. up to a million times faster in our larger datasets. talking about instant versus 60 seconds :-)
 
Are these blocks that are intrinsically non-map-like?
A thing about maps vs blocks is the idea of a foundationally different API where you want them to be actual different types.
 
@HostileFork - IIRC, Doc said, that those two might be unified ...
 
@HostileFork yes. especially the idea that the same data can be present multiple times, which cannot be tailored by the map! type.
 
@pekr Yes, a "someday", running counter to my "if you know it will need fixing fix it now"
Temporary solutions have a habit of becoming more or less permanent
 
Well, just recently, there was an addition of the series! type, creating some common ground for other datatypes, or something like that
 
2:46 PM
ok, will be trying to build the Ren/C distro ... just got MSVC 2013 installed. (my win8 machine had its component store corrupted and Nothing fixed it (Dism was not able to repair my machine....))
 
@moliad I'm not super knowledgable on what it takes to build with MSVC. You might ask @ShixinZeng as he uses it for debugging, but I'm not sure if he actually builds with it...
 
I thought I try using the latest version of msvc for this, not much sense to continue using my old msvc2008 :-) ... but it wouldn't install :-( but then I upgraded to win8.1, and that magically fixed the system corruption.... so now it installed :-)
 
Microsoft has an nmake that's some degree of incompatible with GNU make and I don't know exactly how much or what. You would have to edit the generated makefile
It's good to build with more compilers, in any case.
 
ah, its really easy to setup the project.... just run make-make.r and then just add all the files in the distro , add the includes path, set struct align to 4 bytes, and basically you're done :-)
 
Build process slightly different, see makefile.boot
A few benefits, in that the generated makefile is now in the .gitignore instead of tracked by version control. So every time you build it doesn't have this modified makefile showing as having local changes.
 
2:51 PM
now the libffi stuff got complicated but I paid to get that ironed out, so If it doesn't work with Ren/C, I'll just see what was done in the atronix build and re-apply it to Ren/C with any host-related switches all setup.
@HostileFork good idea :-)
seems to be pretty much the same. I don't use make per se with msvc.
 
@HostileFork is there a step after the make-make.r and before starting the build? I didn't notice one. in the makefile.boot
 
@moliad It will default to a behavior like make -f makefile.boot makefile OS_ID=(autodetect from your r3-make's OS_ID) and then make, if you specify no target.
If you want it to just make the makefile, you can say make -f makefile.boot makefile (for autodetect) or make -f makefile.boot makefile OS_ID=##.##.##
But nice to have a more automatic behavior for make -f makefile.boot
 
well, I don't normally use make when building with msvc. the project and solution store all the equivalent make nastiness. I just need the rebol tools to build the autogenerated code. The only problem I had, used to be with 64 bit integer definitions being different.. but I seem to recall that having been also ironed out in a prior commit of R3
 
The scripts remain under their old names. I'd guess you can r3-make make-prep.r OS_ID=##.##.##
Assuming you're in the right directory for whatever it expected
 
2:59 PM
yeah, that's what I used to do. I'm happy that is back.
btw, anyone looked at targetting Web Assembly?
 
Red has. I've not. We are still holding back on the emscripten release for reasons not quite knownst...
 
ok, at work, we might have to look into it. it seems a bit more serious than emscriptem, and is/will be supported in the 4 major browsers.
 
The author of the Emscripten release (btw - cool stuff) wanted to add some other touches. Most probably a lack of a time ...
 
emscripten is realy cool, but Web Assembly goes far beyond. its like having a VM within the browser, but using normal machine code instead of a Bytecode VM. you can even multithread and do all memory management manually. its a black box which runs within a browser... the first real attempt at making the browser an abstract OS. AFAICT
I have not done a lot of actual research into it, but that's what I grasp of the various articles I've read about it.
 
Does WA anything in common with JS? As if my understanding is correct. ES is still a subste of JS?
 
3:13 PM
not sure. it seems to be lower level than JS. you translate your code into assembly/virtual Machine Code and it compiles it directly. I guess JS will be able to hook into it directly. Examples hinted at building video decoders, and R/T image manipulations as well as game engines directly in normal C/C++ and compiling them to this new output format via an intermediate token language... just like a normal compiler (or like msil, used in .net).
 
@pekr From what I can tell WA is talking about compiling JS. And yes, ES is a subset of JS.
However, since WA is < three months old, this is undoubtedly subject to change. They don't even have a chair yet.
 
others may confirm/infirm my limited analysis. the one thing I know is that FF, chrome, IE and safari will support it directly.
 
It's about a time. It opens a space to actually use any language for a web platform?
 
YES, and at practically native speed... at least at par with any .net code... which is why I consider it the future of web programming.
 
But not sure how you will be able to hook to the display container. If you can do it all with your C++ code for e.g., or link somehow to html/js combo, etc
 
3:17 PM
It's interesting how when you put "web" onto "virtual machine" and it's in a "browser" people think something new is happening. :-)
 
I'm pretty sure (I HOPE), they'll simply allow your code to link with the internals via standard object linking or something like that.
 
this is a basic question, but I don't find an example to this. After saving a map! to a file, should I load it as m2: load %.mapfile?
because if so, probe type? m2 gives back block!
 
@HostileFork yes. the "new" thing is that distributed binary application becomes more ubiquitous. since you put the now ubiquitous network appliance AND the VM in the same package.
 
@Luis MAP!, like OBJECT!, is a non-syntactic type. You need to evaluate what is saved in order to get it back.
So something like do load %.mapfile should work.
Currently this is a contentious matter, some people want syntactic forms for these.
 
3:24 PM
@MarkI @HostileFork: thanks
 
yay, just compiled an empty project in msvc2013... at least it actually installed and works... now on to building a Ren/C project into it. :-)
 
4:07 PM
does RenC currently include all the code needed to compile a 64 bit version on windows?
I see it's in the targets available for make-make.r :-)
 
4:26 PM
@moliad Yep.
If you are using a 32-bit r3-make then the autodetection will not work to give you a 64-bit build, so you have to specify the OS_ID.
 
4:44 PM
@moliad not sure you've heard, but VS 2015 was just released today.
I'm just pulling down the free community edition which has pretty much the same features as the Professional minus some team related ones.
The reason you might want to use this over 2013 is for enhanced C++11/C++14 support.
 
@moliad Does it actually run... Well thats a whole 'nother problem.
 
@iceflow19 @Adrian's 64-bit build ran from msys
 
@HostileFork Really now? Hmm.
 
So perhaps the thing to do is see if we can get that from you with debug info in it
 
@HostileFork well, built with the mingw tools
 
4:52 PM
@Adrian So you didn't build through mysys but with mingw32-make?
 
yeah
 
What was the behavior when you ran r3? Can you use it directly in a command line without it bringing up a new window?
 
yes
from bash
and from cmd
 
And it didn't open a new window? Hmm I wonder what's going on with my builds (on two different os versions and computers)...
 
no, no new window
 
4:56 PM
Let me pull latest and try building again.
 
@Adrian yeah I just noticed.
 
@moliad you might also want to look at CLion by JetBrains - it's a commercial IDE, but it's really nice - it's projects are based on CMake.
 
wrt windows, maybe you just chose a console build, in which case, opening no new window is expected
 
You can try out the EAP (early access program) for v1.1 which doesn't require a license, until it's released.
 
00:00 - 17:0017:00 - 00:00

« first day (1723 days earlier)      last day (2057 days later) »