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2:16 AM
@HostileFork I think they're good for starter projects or quick in-and-out scripts, but I find charsets more precise and deliberate.
 
2:26 AM
@rgchris For clarity, so you mean you prefer any charset-name fencepost to thru fencepost?
 
@MarkI More or less.
 
@rgchris Always leave 'em wanting more ...
 
Then more!
 
Just to test the waters, @rgchris, how do you feel about disallowing constructs in paths?
If you really need it, you can construct the whole path with #[path! [a b #[weird-construct] c]]
Which is of course how you have to do it today if the construct is not at the end of the path ... because constructs currently terminate paths.
 
If the construction syntax is good enough standalone, it should be permissable in a path.
rebol2> [foo/#[none]]
 
2:31 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
 
Well, that's helpful.
rebol2> probe mold/all load {foo/#[none]}
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
 
@rebolbot disable vow of silence
 
@johnk Can you elaborate on that?
 
:-)
 
2:33 AM
rebol2> [foo/none]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
 
>> [foo/none]
 
>> [foo/none]
Great minds.
 
Are both ignored!
 
I think we just warped spacetime.
 
2:34 AM
>> do {probe load {foo/none}}
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
 
Are you punking us @johnk?
 
Anyway. I think Rebolbot made my point for me. I think.
 
So @rgchris, you're OK with the construct having to be in parens or the last element of the path then?
 
>> [foo/none]
 
2:36 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
 
@MarkI I'd lean toward construction syntax as being permissible as is.
 
I wonder if that's why there's no construct for words, because someone would want to use one as path head (so no parens).
 
foo/#[none]/#[string! "String!" 4]
 
@rgchris I was describing how it is.
 
@MarkI Sorry—didn't mean as it is now, I mean by itself.
 
2:39 AM
>> [foo/#[none]/#[none]]
== [foo/none / none]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
 
Yeah, that's broken to my eye.
>> print "I do still work..."
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
 
You can still do [foo/(#[none])/(#[none])] though, and it'll eval the same.
You don't have to tell me that's so ugly as to be unacceptable by the way!
 
It's not unacceptable in that it should work, but it shouldn't be the easiest way to express that.
 
2:42 AM
Don't worry, I'm both on your side and on the case.
I think @HostileFork has a differing opinion though.
 
But then, I also would like to see foo/"Bar" work as the easiest way to express a map value.
 
@rgchris Yah, that's unlikely.
 
@MarkI Meh, that's one person's opinion :P
 
I want to be as inclusive as possible, but no more inclusive than that :)
 
@rgchris oh. That's not good :-/
>> print 1
 
2:44 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
 
red> print 1
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
 
@MarkI Unlikely, but still syntactically available.
 
snap
@rebolbot help
 
I respond to these commands
Note: [] means optional input or shows expected datatype, (|) means choice:
(do|do/2|do/red|do/boron|do/echo) expression "evaluates Rebol/Rebol-like expression in a sandboxed interpreter. echo repeats exact command sent to r3"
(hi|hello|goodnight|goodbye|bye|[good][night|morning|afternoon|evening]) some-text "returns a greeting to the user who greeted bot"
cc id "retrieves curecode data"
delete [ loud ] "in reply to a bot message will delete if in time"
do/ideone which-lang [word! string! integer!] expression "evaluates a source expression for the specified langu
 
2:46 AM
@rgchris Agreed, and I'm not ruling it out absolutely. It's just that it's a known-hard thing right now.
 
I can appreciate that.
 
What's next, urls in paths? :)
(They'd only have to read your mind.)
 
Hmm, cache: pages/http://rebol.com
 
There's also precedent. Date-times do not, and cannot, and will not, ever, work in paths without paren-wrapping them.
 
(incidentally, that works in Rebol 2)
 
2:50 AM
@rgchris Works in Rebol3 as well, because it only works as terminal item.
 
Right.
 
@rgchris @MarkI Well, that might soon be the only way for string! keys in Red if it loses paren! in path!s.
 
@WiseGenius Maybe someone should mention that that's waving bye-bye to date-times in paths. Oh wait, I just did.
 
>> 1 / 0
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
 
2:55 AM
@WiseGenius Sheer mad wild speculation warning alert, but it is possible to lose multi-line parens without losing parens entirely.
 
@MarkI That's what I think too.
 
Did I miss the consensus vote on killing multiline paths (I was otherwise engaged this weekend)?
 
@rgchris The consensus was overridden :)
 
why/(
    "do"
)/(
    {you
    hate}
)/me?
 
You're ... not flat?
We're talking about fashion now :)
 
3:00 AM
FYI I'll look into the bot issue tonight. Might be a tryrebol change, but I can't see anything obvious. If anyone is on altme can you ask Kaj if there were any changes to tryrebol in the last day?
bbl
 
@rgchris No, it was just @DocKimbel's opinion, last I saw.
 
i'm/(
    really not
)/so/(
    bad when
)/("you")/({
    get to know
} me)
Ok, I'll stop now.
 
3:14 AM
I'm not sure I understand the problem with multilines in path!s. If it were only a problem with possible visual recognition, then just discourage people from writing ugly code, but don't take away syntax which makes life so much easier!
But like I say, I don't understand. Maybe there's a deeper problem. But I don't know of any examples Rebol chokes on.
@MarkI And the problem with accessing datatypes like date! and time! in path!s without paren!s is a killer point!
 
@WiseGenius For clarity, it's only date-times that fail. Dates work (use hyphens, not slashes) and so do times.
Date-time is a weird kind of date! that has a time (and timezone) built-in.
 
3:35 AM
>> print now type? now
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
 
16-Jun-2015/5:36:13+2:00
== date!
If “date-time!” was changed to use something other than a slash, would there be any other problematic datatypes?
path!s themselves are not allowed as keys in map!s.
 
@MarkI Would be nice if we'd switch to RFC-3339 dates as default and the problem goes away: foo/2015-06-16T05:36:13+02:00
Or RFC-3339-style dates. 16-Jun-2015T5:36:13+2:00
Perhaps.
@MarkI Tags should be able to start with a space, but they shouldn't be expressible in natural syntax, either #[tag! " "] in the serialised form, or make tag! " " evaluated.
You'd only get {< >} if you formed it.
 
3:53 AM
@rgchris Well, in that second scenario, entering 2015-06-16T05:36:13+02:00 would return 16-Jun-2015T5:36:13+2:00 anyway (just as the corresponding thing works now), so that's cool.
 
@WiseGenius I just worry the 'T' gets lost if it's adjacent to the year as opposed to the day.
 
@rgchris But somehow </a/b/c/> is OK natural syntax? Or <)>? But not <]>? Seems arbitrary.
We have a well-defined way of distinguishing valid HTML/XML tags from invalid arbitrary-string-content tags.
I don't see the requirement to set up a third differentiator for tags.
 
It's only arbitrary if tags have no limitations or purpose.
 
@rgchris ?
 
@rgchris Personally I'm biased in favour of yyyy-mm-dd, one reason being that it's the order I use in filenames, etc. to keep them sorted in the correct order.
 
4:04 AM
Do we have reason to want </a/b/c/> as a valid tag? #[tag "/a/b/c/"] should be valid, but is there any case use for </a/b/c/> ?
 
Falling back on constructs is also a weak line of argument. Constructs can do anything except be pretty.
 
Constructs should enable some degree of expressing intermediary states.
 
@rgchris If you want to only allow valid tags to be un-constructed, that'd work. But it's a grave change.
 
#[string! "Foo" 3]
 
@rgchris What's an intermediary state in this context?
 
4:06 AM
@MarkI #[tag! " "]
 
@rgchris Oh, you mean intermediary as in "not natural".
 
@MarkI Or something that is being worked on. Or a partial (copy/part next tag 1)
 
@rgchris I am balking at that. Don't know what it could be.
Are you suggesting a construct could be in the middle of a tag, just to wrap some characters in it?
 
Could be.
What we lack here is a good treatise on what tags represent—HTML, XML, SGML, something else. Then we could discuss what constitutes 'natural'.
 
@rgchris There are people who are paid BIG MONEY just so such a treatise cannot exist. Think lawyers, only worse.
 
4:10 AM
Refer back to the tag page on the Rebol wiki for some discussion on tags beyond the obvious (need to find the links Fork posted here).
@MarkI Perhaps, but I mean for our purposes.
A treatise on what we want to support.
 
I don't know about "treatises" or "links", but I do know that currently there is no way besides constructs to express a tag with an odd number of double-quotes in it. In case you were wondering, that is bad.
And is crying out for something besides constructs to fix it.
 
@MarkI Well without 'treatises' or 'links' then you're feeling your way in the dark without any guides at all.
 
@rgchris Not true. I have read every single farging SGML specification, which no-one else has. I know whereof I speak.
 
Jun 3 at 5:26, by HostileFork
@rgchris For those who don't remember--when BrianH and I had our first discussion... when I'd just found Rebol and had no clue what TAG! was: page, talk, archive
 
And I know off-by-heart the XML and HTML tag specs.
 
4:14 AM
@MarkI Ok, then you're in a good position to inform what should or should not be the purpose of a tag!
 
@rgchris As I have been trying to do lo these many weeks :)
 
Ok. Then we're on the same page, except I get the impression you're asking one question before resolving the other...
 
You lost me with that one, sorry. Which question? What resolution?
 
Well—is </a/b/c/> good or bad?
 
Neither :) It is invalid XML, HTML, and (stock) SGML though.
 
4:18 AM
Is there reason to support it in Rebol/Ren?
 
Only in as much as there may be reason to support arbitrary strings in tags, which is where I came in ...
 
And I said no!
 
Sorry. I have to check attributions. Was it @earl who wanted that? Please forgive me.
 
NP, probably @earl :)
@MarkI Though I did say it should supported as a construct, to clarify.
 
In any case, "supporting arbitrary strings" could well be through constructs only. But they ugly up things right narsty.
And tags already have one escaping method built-in.
 
4:23 AM
@MarkI That's fine by me—constructs are for unconventional cases.
 
@rgchris As are escapes in strings.
 
If tags are supposed to at least represent XML/HTML, then they shouldn't need escapes to look like them.
 
@rgchris 100% agree. My Tags III proposal naturalizes all valid tags.
I'd prefer escaping the others, but I could maybe live with constructing them.
 
Maybe even ... ready for it ... supporting basic escapes that XML supports: numeric, hex, 'gt', 'lt', 'amp'!!!!
#"<" = sixth <a b="&lt;">
 
@rgchris Tags already do support them ... just transparently. If you change all spaces to "&sp;"s, bingo, all tags are natural.
But we're drifting into ugly territory again ...
 
4:29 AM
Perhaps, but it does solve a problem in a very common space.
 
@rgchris And a nice long crib sheet of when the entities are required and when they are "optional" ... what's the crying emoticon again?
I was hoping to keep it simple, hence Tags III.
 
Where does Tags III live?
 
Jun 3 at 20:52, by MarkI
Tags III: now with backslash!
If a tag <X> forms into an unloadable, it gets molded out as <\X>; if X is empty, as <!>.I have defined "loadable" for tags as
1) begins with alpha, underscore, !, or ?
2) begins with / and is followed by alpha or underscore, then only alphanumword or underscores until the closing '>'
I formatted it badly, my apologies.
 
@RebolBot save "Tags III" "Mark's Tag proposal" chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/23678540#23678540
 
@rgchris added key: Tags III
 
4:33 AM
The backslash is just my choice, other things would work, like &.
 
(incidentally, you can find RebolBot's bookmarks here)
2
 
"Loadable" tags are (of course) a superset of valid tags. But it's actually a pretty close match, varying only in what constitutes a tag name.
I've just seen a flaw, ratsen fratsen. I'll have to do some judicious rewording. I'll update the bookmark afterwards.
 
Trying to remember how to recall a key :)
@RebolBot Tags III
 
Yey, cool!
 
4:42 AM
I wanted to reformat it anyway. Thanks for your help and discussion, @rgchris!
 
@MarkI NP—sorry if it seemed a little circuitous. I do try and keep up, but y'know some things just slip...
@RebolBot Tags III for MarkI
 
Ach, never mind.
 
:P
 
5:00 AM
Tags III:
Loadable tags begin with alpha, underscore, ?, ! if followed by something, or / followed by alphanumerics-plus to the >.
If a tag's form loads as a tag with the exact same contents, it is loadable and molds to the same string as it forms to.
If not, call <X> the tag's form. If X is the null string, then the tag molds as <!>. Otherwise, the tag molds as <\X>.
At load time, load an empty tag if the contents are exactly "!", otherwise strip the leading backslash if there is one.
So, <\!> would be (the useless) tag with contents "!", and <\> would actually be a synonym for <!>, but no
@RebolBot save "Tags III" "Mark's Tag proposal" chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/23906446#23906446
 
@MarkI Tags III is already a key
 
@RebolBot remove Tags III
 
@MarkI Sorry, MarkI you don't have the privileges yet to remove the key Tags III
 
Okey dokey then. Maybe it's a good thing, I'm a little sleepy.
 
5:31 AM
 
 
2 hours later…
7:49 AM
(Not that being a room owner will help with removing keys. I just noticed that the list is hard coded. :-)
(Not that being a room owner will help with removing keys. I just noticed that the user list is hard coded. :-)
 
@HostileFork Windows torture? Building Ren/C under windows I presume?
 
@iceflow19 Windows is always torture. Yeah, I keep getting distracted because I don't enjoy the details... it's more pleasant to catch up on Daily Show or whatever.
John Oliver's show is rather good, I hadn't been watching it.
 
@HostileFork Ya I like his show, but I always seem to loose track of time when watching it.
 
Of course, it's all depressing too.
You wonder "how can the world be this crazy?"
And people call me crazy??
What's our baseline, exactly.
 
8:33 AM
Being an old grumpy retired programmer isn't all it's cracked up to be. I should probably get a job or something. Don't technically need one, but I might not be doing myself any favors by not having one. Arguing with weirdos on the Internet all day, because that's mostly who's on the Internet all day. I don't even know what to say on that, because clearly he won't let me have the last word. I guess I have to let him have it.
Fine. He can have it, I guess.
I still say something suspicious and shilling-ish was going on there.
I learned pretty quickly by getting beaten with the downvote stick that one thing you do not do on StackOverflow is try and answer a C question by suggesting a solution in C++. No faster way to get a thumping than that.
But getting beaten with the Delphi stick, is a new one to me.
 
Well I need to go grab some shut-eye before work.
Night
 
@iceflow19 nite...
 
9:18 AM
Okay, I've done my best to try and make the Windows build work in the way that I can understand it, but I think we aren't doing anyone any favors by me holding off the commit. No man is an island, etc. etc.
I will release coherence-one in the next few hours.
6
See, there's a promise.
It is not 100% "ready" as by definition, it cannot be. It contains none of the changes like the data stack and call stack separation.
 
10:07 AM
I lol'd
@Freezerburn You feelin' like havin' a code review party, by chance? :-)
It's kind of funny going back and watching the old demoscene vids, like Future Crew, and realizing what a bunch of raging geeks those kids were. :-)
It doesn't get more geeky hacker than that.
@iceflow19 respect --^ ;-)
 
11:19 AM
Ah. tryrebol has gone https :-/ that is a bit of a problem for our poor old bot
I cannot remember the reasons why, but the bot has a handcrafted http handler for calling tryrebol so unfortunately it is not as simple as adding an s to the url
 
11:39 AM
I guess I could temporarily shell to curl. Should work as the bot is on the atronix build with the fixed call support
Not a very rebolish solution :-/
 
12:04 PM
>> 1
>> 2
>> 3
>> 4
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 4
 
@rebolbot
print "multi"
print "line"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
multi
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
multi
line
 
12:30 PM
Hacky workaround using curl for the moment
>> "Now with input validation as well :-)"
@rebolbot delete
>> 1
>> 2
>> 3
>> 4
>> 5
>> 6
>> 7
>> 8
 
12:51 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 8
 
>> 9
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 9
 
FYI - as the bot is now shelling out to curl the allowed characters are a bit more restrictive to reduce the risk of injection attacks. Shout if there is a character which I have missed in my quick parse rule.
If the whitelist blocks a char the request will be silently dropped with no response (rather like those >> 1 >> 2 up above)
 
1:18 PM
In response to my own question earlier - issues with the current http protocol make it difficult to use e.g.
>> print read https://tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl/do/REBOL
** User error: "invalid protocol state"
@RebolBot good night
 
@johnk good night to you too
 
>> #[path! [now]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 16-Jun-2015/15:28:40+2:00
 
1:37 PM
Red Gitter group has now 69 members ...
 
>> load {#[path! [now]]}
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== now
 
 
3 hours later…
4:41 PM
@HostileFork - I was asked by Doc to take care of the set-up of the Youtube place for the Red video, as the functionality is limited from China. So - he definitely sees the video as important ...
Social networks are a mess. I had some notes of how to setup a brand cross channel - FB, Youtube, G+, Twitter, Skype and it was a nightmare. In not more than two years, Google changed it ...
But - the video is being uploaded already ...
 
5:21 PM
>> copy/part next quote a/10:00/c: 1
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 10:00:
 
Well, that's ... not good. This is worse though:
>> copy/part next quote :a/:b/:c 1
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== ::b
 
:(
 
5:31 PM
@pekr Thank you very much.
 
Well, not sure I set it up in a correct manner, but Doc definitively wanted to have video back asap, and it can later move, once there is a new website. But I think the channel is OK and hopefully can be used for some future official Red videos ...
My gripes are with the Github. There's a lot of typos in CZ language and I don't know how to clone a repo, submit a PR. I could correct the subtitles directly via the Youtube, but then it will not get back to the Github ...
 
6:21 PM
@HostileFork To celebrate the imminent release of coherence-one I was going to give you a present ...
@HostileFork cordraconis% ./test-rencpp
REBOL MAGIC!
===============================================================================
All tests passed (67 assertions in 12 test cases)
@HostileFork rencpp successfully built on my netbook, manjaro linux :-)
@HostileFork I am stuck at getting Ren/Garden to compile, though.
@HostileFork [ 44%] Automatic moc for target workbench
[ 44%] Built target workbench_automoc
make[2]: *** No rule for target „../examples/workbench/scripts/rebol-proposals/comparison-operators.reb“,
needed for „examples/workbench/qrc_workbench.cpp“, End.
CMakeFiles/Makefile2:238: the rule for target „examples/workbench/CMakeFiles/workbench.dir/all“ did not succeed.
make[1]: *** [examples/workbench/CMakeFiles/workbench.dir/all] Fehler 2
Makefile:85: die Regel für Ziel „all“ scheiterte
make: *** [all] Fehler 2
@HostileFork Any ideas? (translation from german error message by me ...)
 
6:46 PM
@pekr looks good to me. The photo of the trafficlight is your own?
 
7:05 PM
72 and counting
 
7:19 PM
no, it was accidentally available as a stock image, so from cca 10 images available, I selected that one ...
heh, reviewing Czech subtitles for the Red talk, I never expected to do so, did already tens of changes :-)
I somehow got the feeling, that the whole Rebol/Red ecosystem is finally really moving forward :-)
 
@pekr Do I detect a note of optimism? Are you sure you're feeling all right? :) :)
It is a refreshing feeling after many ... moons ... of waiting for it to come.
 
I can feel the optimism in both camps for quite some time.
 
7:36 PM
good time for rebol land, ive been following for years, watching desperate dissenters living off the scraps of a once golden age... it is now time for the rebolution!
 
7:54 PM
Hmm, tried to sync pull request from the Windows desktop Git app, but I can't see it on the web ...
 
@JacobGood1 You misspelled disparate :)
 
hmm, maybe I have insufficient access rights? Do I need specific access rights, to sync PR into Github, or any Github user can do?
 
 
3 hours later…
11:17 PM
@MarkI I am not sure if you are joking or not lol
i think you are
 
@JacobGood1 Smiley means jokey ... question is who gets the joke
 
due to the smiley face
@HostileFork has gone quiet, I am assuming he is trying hard to make due on his promise
has to be the case because when is he ever quiet
____
 
@JacobGood1 He may also be busy with a Windows-induced brain aneurysm, God forbid
3
I know this nut is hard to crack.
 
yea
 

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