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12:36 AM
Let's see if this works...
 
@Brett Colour shows the updates from a each user. There is a button in the tool bar to "clear authorship colours"
 
@RebolBot
do http://codeconscious.com/rebol-scripts/load-parse-tree.r
grammar: context [
expression: [term opt [[add | subtract] expression]]
term: [factor opt [[multiply | divide] term]]
factor: [primary opt ["**" factor ]]
primary: [number | "(" expression ")"]
add: [#"+"]
subtract: [#"-"]
multiply: [#"*"]
divide: [#"/"]
number: [some digit]
digit: charset {0123456789}
]
data: {1+2*3-4}
expr?: func[expr][
load-parse-tree/ignore grammar [
parse/all expr grammar/expression
] [digit]
]
print mold expr? data
@johnk Ah ok.
I guess the bot didn't like my script.
 
@Brett I wonder why?
 
It calls others, maybe it doesn't like that?
It should have returned:
[
expression [
term [
factor [
primary [
number "1"
]
]
]
add "+"
expression [
term [
factor [
primary [
number "2"
]
]
multiply "*"
term [
factor [
primary [
number "3"
]
]
]
]
subtract "-"
expression [
term [
factor [
primary [
number "4"
]
]
]
]
]
]
]
... lost the indents
 
No, that's not it. It works fine pasted directly into the tryrebol site
 
12:44 AM
https://github.com/guitarvydas/peg
https://github.com/guitarvydas/paraphrase
http://random-state.net/files/esrap.lisp

Basically, I don't agree that semantic actions in a parser should be executed while the parse proceeds and backtracks. The parse should build a tree of semantic actions, and, if the parse succeeds, then the tree of semantic actions should, only then, be executed.
and, I don't see evidence that parse memoizes, like PEG does...
 
@paultarvydas The load-parse-tree script (above), rewrites the rules to keep a stack and builds the tree as a result. I wanted a way to move the actions out of the rules...
No it doesn't memoize, it carries out each instruction as it is encountered.
 
1:00 AM
@paultarvydas Some related scripts to the above here (I've only just uploaded them here to DO online, so I hope I haven't broken anything.)
 
@paultarvydas Perhaps you should think of it as PROCESS instead of PARSE. Whatever you call it, there are many interesting applications not possible in other formal grammar systems. And there's nothing really stopping Rebol as a language or syntax from supporting other paradigms. Would be interesting to see someone build those. I have been advocating drop-in clones of existing systems, to demonstrate how small the Rebol implementation of those clones can be.
In fact, the exercise of developing one's own language that is as one envisions it... with the rules you think should or shouldn't be... shows the point that you don't have to accept the rules if you don't like them; without going back to the drawing board and writing everything from scratch.
It might, however, be difficult to reuse large pieces of the existing parse engine and just make that change, without hacking on the C sources to get it. But writing one's own parse-like thing not in the core isn't that hard, it just won't perform as well...though Red plans on changing that.
 
1:17 AM
As far as I know REBOL/View under Windows will use the Windows CodePage (8 bit) active on the machine. So you can probably mange arabic, hebrew, thai and vietnamese (see http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/goglobal/bb964654.aspx).

If I remember correctly Jerry used images to display Chinese characters.
 
@Brett As edits are made, each user's changes will be displayed in a different colour. A very nice feature is the timeline which can be accessed by the clock button in the top right. You can just roll time forwards and backwards and watch the changes.
 
@johnk Cool. Thanks John.. I'll be back later.
 
1:31 AM
@paultarvydas "Basically, I don't agree that semantic actions in a parser should be executed while the parse proceeds and backtracks. " - then you are a minority of one in this. You should first read some documents about parse (I recommend the Rebol_Programming wikibook or the R3 Parse Project)
Also, building semantic tree is certainly possible, no problem with that.
If you do not know how to do it, I can recommend an example of mine.
For example, have a look at fm.vslib.cz/~ladislav/rebol/evaluate.r
 
2:36 AM
@Ladislav Feel free to colour
 
2:52 AM
@johnk @Brett I'll run through the tutorial and test my understanding and the code in R3. However, I would like to compile a list of 'real world tasks' of varying levels of difficulty.

Here is a good example of some simple ones: http://www.rebol.net/wiki/Common_Parse_Patterns
@rgchris that colour looks nice. Oh the font....
 
@kealist Souds good. I like the idea of increasing difficulty levels as you progress. If you go throgh Brett's tutorial and find problems with any of the examples in rebol 3 could you please update the pad
 
3:13 AM
@RebolBot
input-string: "black dog"
parse input-string [opt "black" "dog"]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> input-string: "black dog" parse input-string [opt "black" "dog"]
== false
 
@johnk R3 doesn't deal with the space
 
@kealist rebol 3 parse is equivalent to rebol 2 parse/all
which does break quite a few of Brett's examples
 
@johnk maybe the 1st section of the tutorial needs to be cut or redone differently to be more effective. I can make changes to some of the examples, but it makes them a little odd
 
@kealist we should change the examples where it makes sense
and add in a section on split (although we need to get Gregg's split merged into the mainline builds)
currently split is a bit broken without these fixes e.g.
@rebolbot do split "black dog" " "
 
3:26 AM
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> split "black dog" " "
== ["black" "dog" ""]
 
If we assume that this will be merged soon we can quite cleanly use parse split "black dog" " " [opt "black" "dog"] as a similar example
 
@johnk I started making changes, but that makes more sense than what I was thinking. I keep getting disconnected from the pad
 
@kealist Same here. I thought it was just my dodgy proxy server.
 
3:44 AM
@johnk Not that I agree or understand, but I will just reiterate that @BrianH is adamant that changing the names of types is one of the more difficult changes to adapt to... as in, FUNCT => FUNCTION is not a big deal by comparison...
 
@kealist @HostileFork would you mind starring the above survey link so we can get a few more votes?
@HostileFork I voted for email! partially to make it easy to imlpement :-) I agree that there are a lot of places to change if we do rename it.
 
I think @DocKimbel's vote should be weighted quite a bit. I think I still lean toward AT! in the same way that I think that in the tinkertoy sense that PAREN! is a better name than PRECEDENCE!, for instance
 
(Apologies for the awful survey site, but it was the first one I found which did not require an arduous sign up process)
 
@johnk The changes don't stress me, if anything stresses me about Rebol it is the lack of rate of change. We have also been denied another type e.g. handle! for something starting with an @ vs something not starting with one, and I will remind everyone that richness of interpretation and breakdown into types is one of the selling points here. I haven't had time to review the technical reason for 64 types.
I have mixed feelings about avoiding the datatype "handle!" due to the loaded nature of the term, in the present culture that would probably use it that way. (or "username")
 
Note to self for this meeting: I'll take the action to summarise these comments into the CC ticket
@HostileFork If we do want a new datatype then for me nickname! is another option ref en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_%28computing%29
 
3:56 AM
If there's a formal specification for email addresses to be adhered to, I'd say use it and question this 64 type limit to introduce a new type. I always speak of tail wagging the dog, and if there's something about this interpreter at this point in time causing us to conflate the types... at the inconvenience of our semantics, I say it's probably a bad idea. If we need a new type we need a new type; let's see some hard data before rejecting it.
If there's a source level, spec-compliant, email parse that produces source level email... I say that type gets you EMAIL!. But if there is no legal email address in existence starting with an at sign, and then you get a lexical element that grabs what it can from that, I'd say there's not much I would call it besides AT! or AMPERSAND! or AMP! (to follow html).
 
@HostileFork Sorry, but I have to run to a meeting. Be back in an hour or so
 
@johnk NP but it's midnight over here in these crickety woods. I may not be up much longer.
 
Hopefully a few others will continue the discussion so we can close it out
 
@WayneTsui I don't know how connected you are to Jerry, but @SoleSoul was asking earlier about using Rebol2 for unicode characters... there was this old post about Jerry hacking it up... I don't use any Rebol2 or Rebol GUI but he is curious how it was accomplished, if you are in contact.
 
I can try to leave a message to him.
 
4:08 AM
@HostileFork @WayneTsui @SoleSoul I remember running Chinese on rebol2 at some point but all the details of it are fuzzy years later
 
4:30 AM
@HostileFork In fact, I haven't been contacted with him in person, just follow him on Weibo.
 
0
A: Collatz Conjecture

Dr. RebmuRebmu: 28 On a problem this brief, GolfScript will likely win by some percent against something I write in a few minutes (if it's not required to say, read files from the internet or generate JPG files). Yet it's nowhere near as easy to read, and the total executable stack is bigger. I favor c...

hostilefork.com is back up, but my friend hasn't called me back. :-/ He must be busy.
 
4:43 AM
In this case, Golfscript beat that by 10 characters... 18 to 28. But do bear in mind, Rebmu has only just begun to fight. The point is to see how far to get with clear code, test the limits of dialecting. No matrix libraries, not too many cheaty things. I'd like to see how far that can go and if people can actually use it.
I should offfer a prize to the first person who's not me to write a Rebmu program. :-)
The R-Prize.
 
 
2 hours later…
6:30 AM
@johnk Funny, I've always thought of the @ things as addresses not names, or nicknames, or handles. But I'm not on facebook, nor twitter... So AT! appeals and has strength in being less sematically loaded. For me, seeing it as an address/online location, I see no conflict with the AT native.
 
@Brett I think of it as the at command in unix (or even Windows)
I'll have a play with the tutorial tonight
 
6:54 AM
If the bot is going to be all modular, what would be a good approach to save the options? /config/, /chat-engines/, /commands/? or something like /chat-engines/, /chat-engines/config/
 
7:07 AM
If options are the things we have in the config file then I am up for config. If (when :-) we get other engines up and running we can encapsulate specific config in a block, eg facebook: [] or yammer: []
 
7:47 AM
@DocKimbel @Ladislav Did you see the survey about the email datatype in the starred list on the right? It would be good to get your opinions on this issue (I'll document the outcomes back in the cc ticket)
 
@rgchris Nice, I also forgot that the script is at rebol.org - rebol.org/view-script.r?script=evaluate.r
 
@johnk I just voted for nick! ;-)
 
@DocKimbel I assume nick! would be a new datatype
 
@johnk Yes, if it needs to be the same datatype, IMO email! should be kept. I'm in favor of a new datatype.
 
@DocKimbel Thanks :-)
 
8:08 AM
@johnk Your survey does not contain the answer I prefer, sorry.
 
@Ladislav Which is?
 
I summed up my opinion at the cc ticket
 
posted on August 14, 2013 by Ladislav

[Comment] @username is currently not recognized as an email! value. Which is good, in my opinion, since it would most probably violate some email-related standards. Thus, I am against the "unification" pretending these are emails. If the question is whether we do want a new datatype then I surely do not, having quite some work with existing datatypes: function! datatype needs revamp, closure!

 
@Ladislav Thank you. Your opinion is valued. I will update the survey to add the additional option.
 
8:59 AM
Coming late to the discussion, but I would like to have email! datatype kept, but reflecting REAL email dtype, not nonsense Rebol allows. I mean - if email? "whatever" should return true, only if email fits the specs, not just because someone assigned it being an email dtype
If you want to have a user name, not sure I would call it nick (too funky imo), but a user!, but I will decide what I vote for. One question though - what sematics will it fit? Has anyone tried to register consistent name between services like FB, Youtube, Twitter, Skype? I did, and I say - f*ck them all! I don't know, who is in charge in respective companies, but IIRC twitter does not allow dash, Skype does not allow name to start with a number. So our 2zone media can't have its name on Skype.
So - I really wonder, how one dtype allow me to specify various user names, which will be valid across multiple services. And if it does not allow it, it is not usefull to me
 
@pekr the world certainly is a messy place. Even though the current email datatype is not quite exactly to RFC spec it is still very useful so a useful but not perfect nickname! type still sounds handy for some scenarios
 
9:16 AM
johnk - in the past, I have checked php code for email, and it is able to recognise an email adress, according to specs. Email type is - useless, as it is now. You can't simply use it in a form, simply checking - email? field, etc. Long time ago, I suggested to RT, that it should be changed, but I was "educated", that real email address and something being called an email! datatype are two distinctive things
Of course I objected, because by that measure, I could assume, that integer? 1.23 might return true too :-) My take it, that someone at RT was simply lazy to implement proper email dtype. It is currently usefull only to have another datatype to distinguish during parsing ...
So from that point of view, the poll, instead of trying to fix the case, simply tries to solve it by obfuscating it by using different name. Shame on us, I though we are - rebols ...
 
@pekr The poll was to gather input so we could record a definitive decsion in cc for issue 1962 for when we have the resources to implement it
I'll try and sum up all of this discussion and record it in cc
I agree with you on the email datatype, rfc compliance would be nice ...
 
OK, then I want a fixed email datatype, and new one for usernames. In ticket comment, someone said, that it is distinguished from email by not having a dot. That might not work, e.g. FB username can be @mysite.cz
As for proposal itself, I kind of like it. Usernames are often used. As for naming, not sure I would go with 'nick, but that depends upon votes. 'user does it for me ...
 
Note to anyone who has voted - you can change your mind (state is cookie based so use the same browser/machine)
Does anybody have an online mdp reflector like @rgchris colouriser‌​?
 
can preliminary voting results be seen somewhere, or only once the voting is over?
 
yes, here (assuming you can view it?)
 
9:31 AM
wants a login ... will wait for official results then, no problem ...
 
 
1 hour later…
11:11 AM
actually i always thought this @nick is a bit weird, since normally the nick is in front of the @... and explains the hierarchy crossing and containment well too, like onetom at lamma-island dot hk
how did it even emerge? did it come from hash tags? or the purpose is the "easier" parsing, because u already know the type of word u r reading right after the 1st character? is it "better for the eyes" as opposed to onetom@ (while we used onetom: on irc for ages...)?
but @onetom definitely shouldnt be an invalid email...
just a word! maybe
any problem w that
 
12:00 PM
0
A: Parsing Blocks of Data in REBOL

endo64I think this solves the problem, please check the result: REBOL [] data: [ Hotspurs Giants 356 6 275 4 442 3 Fierce Lions Club 371 3 2520 5 0 4 Mountain Tigers 2519 2 291 6 342 1 Shooting Stars Club 2430 5 339 1 2472 2 Gun Tooters 329 4 2512 2 2470 6 Banshee Wolves 301 1...

 
@pekr There is a difference between what is natively parseable and what is legal to create at runtime. It would be difficult to build something like a URL up progressively if at every intermediate step it had to be valid...it would involve costly runtime checks...and having type? reverse http://hostilefork.com come back with anything besides URL! raises lots of hairy questions.
The same applies to email at runtime. That said, if the Rebol/Red parser could lend a hand in following RFCs and excluding bad inputs... as well as providing built-in legal-email and legal-url functions (possibly leveraging the same code), it would be helpful.
So the REVERSE in parse isn't implemented, hm. It would be helpful for that problem above, to pick off the last 6 digit runs and then the team name is what's left. I'm sure some hacker would call themselves "Mighty Ducks 2" :-) so a reverse parse could help handle that.
 
12:21 PM
0
Q: In a series! what is the best way of removing the last element

johnkWhat is the best way of removing the last element in a Rebol series? Options I have found so far are s: "abc" head remove back tail s and s: "abc" take/last s

 
12:39 PM
posted on August 14, 2013 by onetom

[Comment] I'm against unification too. I would expect EMAIL! to be an RFC complaint validator, but which RFC?... The topic is quite complex as we all are very aware: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email_address Have you noticed how email! was always referred to with lowercase letters, while almost all other datatypes are all-caps? I'm not sure what does it mean, but looks like "an error in the M

 
1:06 PM
0
A: In a series! what is the best way of removing the last element

HostileForkDefine "best". Highest performance? Most clarity? What is it you want the expression to return at the end, or do you not care? The two you provide return different results...one the head of the series after the removal and the other the item removed. If you want the head of the series after ...

 
 
1 hour later…
2:33 PM
@Adrian that's why we cant talk to Ron; "he just left" ;) thecodinglove.com/post/46949174669/…
 
@HostileFork Going back to this, there's little point in validation as being part of the email! type—when a@a is a valid and legitimate email, there doesn't seem much value when handle notation is an increasingly common part of our communication vocabulary.
 
@pekr Actually, there is a principial obstacle to that (when not speaking about the LOAD implementation) since emails are any-strings, i.e., mutable, which means the user can modify them any way he wants to.
 
Another naming possibility would be address!—perhaps the biggest semantic problem with that is that it doesn't refer to a street address, rather a system address (though the deeper coding types here might also complain as with handle! that it has some other meaning). Other than that, it's quite appropriate.
For both email addresses and service handles.
 
3:47 PM
@Ladislav @earl @Brett @HostileFork Yes, thanks for the snippets and links, I will study them. Those (like HF) who met me in Montreal, know where I'm at - I'm spiralling into an understanding of r3/red.
I'm currently playing with a PEG written in parse (https://github.com/guitarvydas/r3peg) and haven't yet groked how to emit using semantic actions in a recursive descent style (I'm assuming that's a good idea(?), I'm certainly open to more rebol'ish ideas). Simply snapping "accept" actions onto the expr.r grammar showed that actions were fired multiple times during backtracking. That does
 
@paultarvydas It might interest you to see the Red lexer. It's good to be looking into these things, while there's still time to start collecting community suggestions for large-ish changes.
I think it would be neat if you could choose either behavior...to either run a sub action on "accept" of a match, without having to put in special code to facilitate that...or run every time a match is attempted. It may be difficult to formalize the former in the parse model, though. @Ladislav seemed to think it could be done within acceptable boundaries.
 
4:58 PM
https://github.com/rebol/r3/pull/127
Pull Requests (R3)
Delete unused header file
ladislav
1376476945
 
5:11 PM
@rgchris FYI, I will give a try to Cheyenne/QM integration tomorrow. I'll try to leave QM files untouched if possible, or at least make the changes transparent to the usage with Apache, if that's ok to you (you won't have to maintain two versions).
 
5:25 PM
posted on August 14, 2013 by Ladislav

[Bug] The example code below shows an incompatibility between functions and closures in R3 that can be resolved using rebinding. Other positive effects of rebinding would be: * rebinding is faster than binding (no word search in context needs to be performed) * rebinding is more "natural" and "intellingent", only the words bound to the source context get rebound to the dst context (the clone),

 
@DocKimbel Ok, sounds like a good first step. Ultimately they will have to be separate as there's much more scope for integration with Cheyenne, but first things first :)
 
5:40 PM
Hello @Jean-PierreBertrandDorion ... many of us were just in Montreal for a conference! Sorry about the 5 rep, it constrains chatting. You can check our FAQ in the meantime, I'll go read your questions...
 
@rgchris Yup, let's just give it a first round.
 
Hello @RobertM.Münch... there has been talk lately about a declared "statement of intent" regarding features like encapping and TLS for Rebol3... I think people are looking for some definitive guidance on what to expect. We do need both, and while it would be a burden to implement it, we can. Just in a "wait-and-see" phase while we try and work up the websites and videos and other items.
If you didn't catch Carl's talk on home automation here it is
 
 
2 hours later…
7:29 PM
How would one go about waiting until a key on the keyboard is pressed?
 
7:52 PM
@HostileFork :( the sound sucks or is it just me?
but it's really exciting to see Carl on youtube. i guess it's the 1st time, right? i haven't seen any videos about him before.
the video feels a bit blurry too, but otherwise it's quite good
the lights make it look a lot better, indeed. it's good you brought it up @HostileFork
 
8:09 PM
@onetom I'll gladly accept payment to clean up the audio. However, I will point out there are hours upon hours of material, and turning it into something watchable is a tremendous amount of work, and even still people will complain:
 
it's also cool we had multiple angles!
@HostileFork im not complaining, i just don't know how to give negative feedback without offence. :) plus it's not an opinion about your work, it's a sad fact about the raw material... which is poor, because despite your warnings, it hasn't been tested well enough upfront.
@HostileFork you are doing a fantastic work, not doubt about it!
:) recode.rebol.net !!! it's awesome how you always finds ways to push the change forward!
 
@onetom Thanks for the vote of validation. :-) Well, the audio actually can be fixed up a lot, and the microphones are good enough, but getting good sound is hard work and we had a lot of crowd noise and shuffling/etc. I had to edit around coughing and pops and everything. The real way to do this is to split out the audio track and use fancier software but I went with a simpler tool and just tried to get it done.
@onetom Sneeky, aren't I? :-)
 
@HostileFork totally! i love it :)
 
Someone commented complaining that it was slow and didn't get started fast enough to the content of the presentation, and that person really doesn't want to see the source material... I did a lot of chopping. It's different watching YouTube videos from being a captive audience... perception of time changes, and the "I am bored I will click away" isn't as readily available.
 
@HostileFork yup, that's the way to go. get out some 1st version asap, then iterate. getting some funding for you is a good idea too. you definitely deserve it!
 
8:29 PM
@onetom Just kidding, I actually don't want to do that audio work. :-) And keep @DocKimbel funded first. I think the current audience will be happy with what's there, and their lack of happiness will generally have little to do with production quality if it meets a baseline. But reaching that baseline would be easier with certain measures taken and not require all that time.
I do hope that this "DevCon" vs. "Recode" branding thing, and conference material, will fall under best practices. Note that the top youtube hit (at least for me) on "red programming language" is still:
 
8:56 PM
@HostileFork aaaw... that hurts :D
btw, i've just noticed that the 2nd Reality demo is open sourced https://github.com/mtuomi/SecondReality
20 years after the making. shit, we are getting old fast... :/
 
@onetom Heh, that used to seem like pretty fancy stuff. :-)
 
9:51 PM
@AstDerek Just checking that you know not to watch that, I fixed it!
 
@HostileFork No worries, my ISP has been sloppy these days and cannot see long videos anyway :D :(
 
10:04 PM
@HostileFork is it possible to access the file header from the same module file?
 
11:03 PM
@AstDerek I'm not a good person to ask about modules and headers, others know more than me by and large about building Rebol applications larger than a few lines. :-)
 
11:17 PM
I just draw icons and edit videos. :-)
 

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