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8:31 AM
@Pierre Hi Pierre! Welcome. I like the word "some" in your comment here. I would say many, like people really wanted to go and use Red to replace other languages they had to deal with. If people were able to use it instead of those and make a living out of it they would helped out more with funding and adding to the sourcecode.
The guys in the Red and Rebol podcast also speak of the fact that when you go and use Rebol for serious work you run into its boundaries very quick. I am not sure which they mean exactly but I know of 'some' I ran into. And in addition I stopped recommending R&R completely since, really keep it a secret tool.
Though I wished that would change again.
 
Similar fate, as with the Amiga - there was point in time, where you were still using one, but was not suggesting it to others to buy into ....
I can see Python overrun other scripting languages. A decade ago, Ruby was raising, but can't see it being used much among my friends at least. As for Python, it is just everywhere. And they even got some microPython, which can work in something like 128KB of memory.
And e.g. Microsoft PowerBI platform, initially having R statistical language, just added Python as the second one. That is significant imo, as companies like Microsoft do such a thing ....
 
I consider the whitespace to be meaningful a harmful thing because I can't see. Whitespace is meaningful in layout.
@pekr Ruby was raising, even I tried it shortly but I found it hard to get a hang of it, it did not attract me as much as Rebol did. Less fun. And also no true perspective of landing a well paid job using Ruby. Ruby fades out. Python is everywhere, but is Python good, as HF already pointed out inserting an if at the beginning of your source code requires all lines to be indented, thus changed for version control.
 
8:47 AM
I don't know, if Python code indentation is mandatory? Even if so, most ppl are probably ok with that. It is just that it has interfaces to just many systems, stackless version, version tailored for embedded, etc. I thought that with Red, we would see such targets too, but there is only certain level you can achieve with limited resources / community.
 
 
3 hours later…
12:16 PM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE I'd still say an untapped middle road is dialects. My sense here is that we are limited in our understanding in what dialects can be in that most examples are Parse BNF-based. We haven't really produced any mini-interpreters that result in interesting sub-languages, read perhaps StyleTalk with variables, expressions, loops, etc..
 
12:36 PM
@rgchris Invent the future! I always bet that you'd be among those leading the way on this front.
I'm a proponent of @HostileForksaysdonttrustSE "minecraft of programming" vision.
Due to rebol/red/ren-c being a high level language quite out of step with the culture and direction of development tools/languages, I would not expect it to take away devs from other languages.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE I sort of get the impression that your disappointment is that you expect more from the .reb format and the limitations of JSON or other means it's not so bad if the aesthetics are scrappy.
 
But to your point about dialects and "minecraft", I would love to see some interest spark up around a productivity scripting, as a more accessible way for non-developers get basic CRUD style things done.
 
@Edoc Unless it can outperform on the tasks they need their tools for now.
 
@Edoc I still see this as a function of what you can do. No-one would be so bothered about the paradigm differences if you can succinctly glue disparate systems together.
 
So, while not likely taking away any marketshare from java,go,python,etc. there might be an angle for both devs and business users to leverage rebol languages. Devs more as a way to get things done without resorting to a dozen different unix shells, and
business users to use a dialect to get more of the minecraft/hypercard stuff done.
@iArnold It likely won't outperform them on most benchmarks... except for speed of creation, and possibly (if we're more careful than we've been in the past) for legibility and maintainability.
So no, for production-line work, I don't see our preferred tools ever making it. But sacrificing that scenario can be a blessing to allow us to focus on the other areas which can make an impact.
@rgchris Agreed. I think nearly all languages can do similar things... just with different tradeoffs -- some are just more performant, more low-level, more x-platform, have more batteries included.
 
12:47 PM
@Edoc On many occasions that will be good enough, you need to be really big before execution speed really matters. (Think Bo and ameridroid, Bo can get away with using a lot of Rebol scripting).
 
@iArnold I agree with good enough. I think 80% of computing is CRUD applications, querying data, state-machine/workflows and storage.
 
There's nothing that's innate to Python as a language though that has made it a success. Possibly that it can be implemented with speed, not sure, but mainly it's that it was open source and users were able to integrate it into more systems.
 
@iArnold But the 20% of platform/systems programming, games, high-performance stuff, that's what drives the industry. And companies don't like codebases in different languages, so those evolotionary pressures drive the path forward.
 
@Edoc And even with those systems that should be scalable and able to handle the workloads blahblahblah.. seen plenty of occasions where the servers went out because of the heavy traffic when everybody wanted to get the ticket or real good price/value article.
@Edoc One language to rule them all then ;-)
 
@rgchris True, I think python is popular because its formatting makes things structured enough for other devs (and supporting tools/IDEs) to pick up and read. And that it's not java :) and has a very large community.
Having a huge community with all the accoutrements means that although python might not be the fastest or the best for any domain, entire groups of people work on solving many of the issues and making the language acceptable for those domains.
@iArnold Of course, we all have seen this. But solving problems via code can be really complex, difficult to read and maintain. So nobody wants to pay time or $ to write something more than once. You'll write the solution in the safe/fast/popular language (because you want the cheapest labor, natch)
 
12:58 PM
@Edoc Yep. The unanswerable question is that would that Rebol had been open source when it still had outside interest and an appreciably bigger community, would it have gained more traction? I know Carl had wanted to control the design process, but Brian as a near-sole C developer has been able to squeeze more out without significantly altering that core design.
4
 
@rgchris I think that it would have had a bigger community... though I'm not sure the outcome would have been appreciably different. There probably are more limitations to the kind of programming you can do with rebol, and that's a turn-off for most devs and software engineer types.
 
@Edoc There probably are more limitations to the kind of programming you can do with rebol — what would you say those limitations are?
 
So I think rebol had kind of the right ideas about simplicity, but attracted a developer audience who was fairly unimpressed with the specs of the language. And then RT built a UI, which was a cool proof of concent, but RT had little/no experience in design and produced something which was really out of touch with that market.
@rgchris I'm thinking systems programming, games, things which need to be closer to the metal or have a lot more rigor. This is more something Brian can comment on, but to my eyes, Rebol is a high-level interpreter that at the end of the line executes C code.
Core elements of the language are set up to enable a certain style of programming. It's a tradeoff. Take away those pieces of the architecture though, and what's left would probably look nothing like rebol-- it would be like any other generic language.
 
@Edoc Doesn't Red(/System), flawed as it may be, posit that such things can be done?
 
@rgchris Yes, I think Red system shows that there's a path to achieving those things. It's probably the best thing Red has on offer, definitely an achievement. On the other hand, maybe it's me, but I don't think I'd like to program in Red/System.
3
And it would be quite a gamble to invest your codebase in something like that.
 
1:08 PM
Or having TCC embedded open possibilities of using dialects to generate compiled output.
My point is that it isn't really a limitation of the language, just how we've used it thus far.
 
Perhaps a worthwhile gamble for the right kind of company, of course. Not saying it's foolish, just higher risk. And higher risk can be higher reward. But the graveyards are full of the bones of brave adventurers. :)
 
I'd argue that business needs weren't the primary drivers of most languages, it's hobbyists and hobbyists that happen to get paid.
 
@rgchris True. Could well be. The devil is always in the details. With a good idea and good execution, you can achieve success with almost any tool. It's a multifactor equation.
@rgchris Businesses need solutions, and don't typically care how it's achieved as long as it meets basic requirements. I don't know about hobbyists here. I don't think hobbyists are a major factor in the industry.
 
I don't think you get much development or innovation from folks that aren't enthusiastic about what they do.
 
Yes, whether you're a hobbyist or not.
 
1:18 PM
Enthusiasm makes one a hobbyist whether they get paid or not. It's that point where you begin to care.
 
I think when your career is getting paid for building solutions/code, I don't consider you a hobbyist. Even though you may also work on tech as a hobby.
 
It depends—can you keep that 'enthusiasm' for innovation on the clock?
 
@rgchris I hear you. Not all work needs innovation though. Sometimes you need to follow the recipe or standard protocol, whether it's building a website or rehabbing someone's shoulder.
 
What we need though are the people that do have that enthusiasm. They are the people that take the language forward and bring more people in.
They fill in the gaps.
 
No argument there. You always want people who have a passion for what they do, their craft, even if they are basic practitioners or factory-line style workers.
 
1:28 PM
To reel them in, you need to demonstrate potential. That the glue can be sticky.
 
@rgchris Sure. Usually the interesting stuff will be done by those users. So getting a language and fertile community off the ground is a tricky thing.
The potential of rebol is yet to be realized. No hyperbole, it's up to all of us. Fullstack has a vision for what they're trying to do, and I think Brian has his. Brian seems focused on normalizing/rationalizing the language, making its foundations suitable for max "rebol-ness" (sculpting around the tradeoffs) and suitable for code-golf level brevity, while allowing a form of "minecraft" simplicity and modularity. Oh, and WASM.
 
@Edoc Right, but the converse to my Python statement above is that there's nothing innate to Rebol that makes it unable to succeed, indeed it is a far more elegant language than most all of the popular ones. We can look back at mistakes that were made, but the game isn't over.
 
So Fullstack has their cool system language. I hope it takes off, and delivers cool stuff that blows people away. And maybe Brian is fortifying rebol's foundations for it to be the best embodiment of original rebol, which is in some ways limited by that vision/interpretation.
Fullstack maybe has their system + native gui's. It's a strong hand.
Brian has fortified/more orthogonal, more consistent "minecraft" rebol + WASM. It will be interesting to see both camps attract audiences who put cool stuff together.
 
@Edoc Should be—lack of 64-bit is currently a major showstopper.
2
 
1:44 PM
@rgchris Well, true. I don't think Rebol is unable. No offense, it's just a laggard. It's a late arrival, and a late mover.
It takes a long time to make a language. Usually around ten years, assuming you've got good resources and or financial support from a foundation or something.
 
Brian has incredibly lofty goals. I happen to think that Ren-C could be packaged as Rebol 3 now (I think the language has gone beyond the needs of a Rebol 3) and would be compelling. I kind of wish that had happened and where we are now is progress to whatever Ren-C will become (Rebol 4 or, Ren-C).
 
And when most languages are roughly capable of doing the same things... it becomes a challenge to catch up in features/functionality, documentation, community development, you-name-it.
 
@Edoc Yep, that's why drawing a line under Rebol 3 would've been useful. I can't say I like the Redbol compromise.
 
@rgchris Yeah, he's insane.:P) Which maybe you almost have to be to pull some of that off.
 
I would love to do more than hang around and post. I find it hard to invest larger blocks of time figuring out how strings are tied together. The Gtk stuff is also not too friendly and Skia, I dont understand is that only inside the browser.
 
1:49 PM
@rgchris What do you mean by the Redbol compromise? (also explain for newbies)
 
Oldes had a good point in why he did want the language on the platform and not inside a bloatybrowser.
 
@Edoc The compatibility module.
 
@iArnold There are definitely good arguments to be made there. On the other hand, recreating modern GUI features is just a massive task which would be unending.
 
I think both are needed. Both serve their goals.
 
Agree.
 
1:52 PM
@rgchris Yeah, I admit I don't understand the strategy for that one-- Brian would have to defend that. Many of you might want to crucify me for this, but I think the community is so small (and so are codebases) that I wouldn't shy away from cutting loose from legacy.
 
@Edoc As it stands, it's alienating a few folks that do actually want to use it.
 
Best thing is you can get to work on whatever you like and learn a lot from doing that.
 
I do have a plan for myself, but it is flawed. It does mean being cut loose.
 
@rgchris Yeah, this isn't my area. Sometimes carrying forward backward compatibility and legacy can drain forward progress, hinder innovation.
 
You do need to create fixed waypoints though otherwise you're just drifting.
 
1:56 PM
Need to proceed. I had to upgrade pho5 to php7 and also replace deprecated functions. Have to accept changes fro R2 to R3 to Renc.
Rfree
 
The few modules I've written for Ren-C are drifting over versions. I can't work like that.
 
@rgchris Understandable. And unfortunate, while not exactly unexpected for a fledging language. I'd imagine similar things for Red, though-- they must have areas which remain moving targets.
 
@rgchris I have in the past made offers that if people get involved in setting up continuous integration that I would include those systems in being patched for updates. I can't update code on other people's systems that I don't know how to use.
 
@Edoc It's still unclear what their port model will look like. That's a fairly black box at the moment.
 
@Edoc I think that Redbol presents a worthy challenge to the ability to twist the language. How much it was prioritized depended a lot on how much people got behind it. I managed to make decent headway on the PDF maker, getting a test file output. It isn't like it was a hopeless cause... even things like Latin1 support (because few Latin1 files look like legal UTF-8, you can have an operation like READ fail on UTF-8 and then fallback to a usermode-written Latin1 loader)
So you can sort of hybridize on that aspect (e.g. with the embedded metrics or whatever information in the pdf-maker)
Anyway, point being that I managed to make it run the file off the web unmodified.
 
2:06 PM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE It's not clear what you're suggesting here.
For me to continue to be productive in the latest Ren-C, I have to adopt all the changes to the language including those I have no investment in.
If I were to develop in a familiar language (to me), it's not going to be of much use.
 
@rgchris We've discussed the two paths: either write code as Redbol and be invested in helping advance the stable state of Redbol implementation (which means effort in reporting bugs on and improving it), or use the latest Ren-C and receive my help in keeping your codebases in sync. For the second option those codebases must be committed to, published, and have tests on Travis-CI that send me alerts when they break.
Using Redbol does not mean not having access to underlying Ren-C features (SPECIALIZE, ADAPT, etc) they just will not be in the main namespace.
 
If I was interested in writing Redbol, though, I'd use Red.
 
I think it would be more interesting to have things like e.g. your e-book maker up on a web page, running in Wasm. And I think it would be neat to have such things in Ren-C. Maybe a good drag 'n' drop interface and a few buttons as well as a command line.
If such a page did something along the lines of the headless firefox REPL test, I could stop new builds from deploying if they would break the eBook maker page.
 
I think someone should do that, I don't see it being me. I have a significant codebase that I need to modernise.
The question for me is, what target should I modernise to.
 
Is this QuarterMaster/web stuff?
 
2:16 PM
That's part of it, yes.
 
If it's not a trade secret, it would help if you described exactly what your requirements are.
In the sense of "what is it, and have I seen it before"
 
As a 'for instance', any Rebol 2 code that I have published.
It also includes client work built on top of many of the modules.
 
Well, that is significant. I can understand that being professionally entangled with Rebol and having one's livelihood depending upon that--it would be a problematic. It compounds the already very difficult nature of being philosophically tied up in its design and wanting to see it worked out.
 
I'm not looking for it to run as-is. I want to take advantage of updated features. To that end, I see my best path as picking a snapshot build of Ren-C, but early enough that the modernisation is less significant.
 
Like I say, I can't keep from breaking things if I'm not in the loop.
I think that hour-per-hour, if you spent that time to keep me in the loop, you'd be better off with current Ren-C.
You'd get your bug reports fixed, there'd be tests to make sure your work stayed up before pushing new versions, etc.
 
2:25 PM
Perhaps, but I have my reservations.
 
Well you have an opportunity right now in terms of the Ren-C as published is the last of its kind before the renaming and license change.
The repository will likely be locked.
 
My current target is the build version—is tested, is still largely syntactically similar, parse is closer to R3A which I'm familiar with. It is pre-WASM and UTF-8, but for now, it should be workable enough.
 
The opportunity is "probably no language changes for the next few months"; they're all implementation changes. New features (e.g. generators and yielding and coroutines and all that). But not changing other behaviors.
@rgchris If you are willing to invest and commit, then Chrisbol can be a target that I commit to as well. e.g. your pick of what you want emulated and how, and I can support that.
I had thought that Redbol would be preferable and aim at a wider audience over the long run, but maybe Chrisbol...by virtue of putting you in the design seat, would be a choice that expedites your work better.
And maybe people like Graham or the broader Red-community-that-may-someday-transition-to-Ren-C would be as happy with Chrisbol (or happier).
It would give you freedom to try your hand at designs and still get support and bugfixes for it.
And if people want Redbol, then they can look at Chrisbol and adapt as necessary. If no one ever wants Redbol, then whatever.
 
I appreciate that offer. It should be noted that the build version is still a world away from R3A.
 
@rgchris Make a list of things you want rolled back, I'll add a layer that rolls it back. e.g. your priority list drives the emulation. I try to either convince you the change is right and just and good...and you bite the bullet and conform to it. Or I don't convince you and Chrisbol does it the old way
But we have to be doing this with tests and a process. I said this around New Year.
What I'd like us to do is move file by file, talking about changes, get that conversation solidified as continuous integration test.
If we have to agree to disagree we let you have your adapter pack and move on.
Maybe we start by just letting Ren-C's current version as published evolve into Chrisbol. I have my own branch for the new project.
 
2:38 PM
My goal is to use the build version, so for now, the tests at that snapshot should suffice. There are some changes I'd like to make, but as the goal is stability, they would not be significant.
 
@rgchris Okay then it sounds like you should run the tests (at build version time) against the current executable and make a "list of grievances", e.g. those tests that represent something where you want it the old way.
If your concern is less about any specific behavior and you'd be more or less as willing to accept now if your concerns were going to be heard in keeping things at a stable point (e.g. you'd just as well accept the current version if maintenance of an emulation layer for your project was available), then it's a conversation to be had about "give-and-get", where you accept responsibility for helping work on that Chrisbol layer.
But I won't maintain that emulation layer solely for my health. I need others working on it with me. This is basically why Redbol hasn't happened.
My desire for Ren-C to be able to bend and warp in epic ways means this can be a fun goal to help people build the adapter kits to have what they want. If it winds up we pick the first two points-of-view to test for Ren-C's bending as yours and mine, vs. mine and Rebol2, then that's probably a more interesting ecology of ideas to study.
 
My primary need is for a binary that would run 'Chrisbol', that—for its flaws—is the build version. My intent is to adapt any tests there that don't conform with what I need and make those work.
 
And maybe it forces Ren-C to be defined at a third and more neutral level, as we get Brianbol and Chrisbol out of it. <shrug>
 
Whatever it would take to format those tests in a way that would make Chrisbol work (I do have an alternate name), then I'll work with that too.
 
@rgchris The refinement-as-argument change is not something you want to accept? But you are all right with an emulation that limits you to 1-or-0 arguments?
 
2:52 PM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE I'm not against updated semantics, I just need something conservative in itself.
 
@rgchris Well what I want to convince you of is that having me on board with this has a lot of advantages for you. And having you invested and active in using the system has advantages for me. I think going this alone on the build version you'd have to patch the C of yourself is a very dead end by comparison.
 
Again, I'm willing to work with the build version because it's already there. It does enough for my needs without needing much revision.
 
Well if you're happy enough, I guess that's interesting. I feel like it would be more fun if I could do things to make you happier on any given day.
Instead of sticking you on your own doing workarounds.
The time invested in those workarounds just sounds like it would not only be longer, but less fun, than the investment of time to get the stable agreed-upon tests that let you use the latest state of the art.
If you feel you're running out the clock on making rent or something so you can't stop long enough to do it, then maybe that can be discussed.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE I agree. Again, I'm not shunning ongoing development, just creating a milestone.
 
Well, converting to the build version isn't the worst idea. And it's at least got ADAPT and SPECIALIZE and all of that. Hm, does it have ENCLOSE?
Seems it does.
Well, if you think it will work out, and want this to be step one. I'd just feel badly if you hit some problem in that which was too far back in time to make an easy patch for.
 
3:00 PM
I think that in creating the milestone using an established version also creates a benchmark for an emulation layer too, so I see that as the challenge. I'm willing to accept that the emulation would surpass the original. The benchmark would include user interface.
 
Well it's not a crazy plan. An advantage of the build version is that it has been in use for a while and hasn't had any showstopping bugs running the build scripts...(which are no longer "trivial")
So the semi-monstrous nature of Rebmake at least works for the confidence advantage there.
 
I do plan to use it as an opportunity to learn how the codebase works too, that version and more recent changes.
 
It will be easier to emulate that build version than to do Redbol, though I believe both are possible (for mortals to write).
As per Ren-C's mission to be "a core for building Rebol languages", it's not just all right if people's code isn't compatible...it's expected. It's supposed to be a personal bendy language. You may have to read the notes and code for a file to know how IF works, and that's o.k.
People may have an illusion of confidence walking into a codebase that's humongous just because they know the semantics of ten keywords. If the codebase is so big you can't possibly read it all in a week, that might not be the most important point. Maybe taking a few minutes to learn how IF was bent is worth it, if the code will fit on a few pages.
@rghris If this is the path you are taking, and if it means a bet on that future emulation and any changes, then in the "give-and-get" balance I may be more willing to apply patches at the build version. Though the real "give" needed is feedback on forum posts and design involvement.
 
3:17 PM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Yep, I can do better on that.
I do need to decide where to put the fork as I will have some patches. As I understand it, you can't have different forks of the same core project under the same user/group?
(most notably the tests)
 
@rgchris We could make a branch at that moment in time.
Let me do that. What commit was it?
8994d23? What would you like the branch named (if not chrisbol) :-)
 
R3C
(lowercase works too)
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE I think it might have been #48e79f99 because the build version does use the Parse return change.
 
3:35 PM
@rgchris Well this is your pick. But how about at least the return value change and the :(...) for injecting code execution as a PARSE rule, I think those are both keepers.
 
What is the return value change?
 
PARSE returning NULL or the position last reached in the parse (so you need END to force failure)
 
Yes, I do want that.
I am hesitant re. get/set-group however.
 
It's very useful. :-( I'd think you'd want to live in a world where you can at least try it out.
If you wind up not liking it or having feedback about it, fine.
 
I can, that's Ren-C :)
I'm fairly sure, though that despite labeling otherwise, the build version is actually #48e79f99
 
3:40 PM
The mac one might be. There was a problem with dependencies and it got shuffled. But IIRC the mac one was also a debug build.
But the one I've got on linux seems to be labeled right.
 
Ah. Wouldn't the Parse change produce different results within the build scripts?
 
PARSE returns a BAR! if it succeeds
It may be that the shim works either way
e.g. if it already has the desired result then the shim winds up being a no-op
 
Either way, Parse returning position is desired so I'd opt for that later commit.
 
@rgchris Hm. Well, the commit after that wipes out IF in PARSE and replaces it with (( )), which doesn't get changed to :( ) until significantly later. :-/
One reason :( ) wasn't used is that the bootstrap process using the older build couldn't make use of it, but the bootstrapping has been changed to not operate on LOAD (it uses something called STRIPLOAD in usermode)
I guess we can start with 48e79f99 and assume that r3c will get patches, and the GET-GROUP! patch can be one of those. Don't use (( )).
@rgchris Branch: r3c
 
Deprecating (( )) is fine by me.
 
3:54 PM
I will tease out the change to switch it to GET-GROUP!.
Not necessarily today, but at some point. I doubt it would be your first order of business anyway.
 
No. As my goal is to modernise a Rebol 2 codebase, it'll not yet be missed.
 
Do (will) you have any trouble getting your own r3c variations built?
I won't put any advanced features into it, the code will be too labor-intensive to integrate backwards that far. So ECHDE ciphers and all that are out.
But you have your curl workarounds.
But simpler tweaks can be kept on the table; and how much worth it that will be depends on how committed you get.
 
4:32 PM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Not initially. I will have to consider how to do builds for distribution. Also version numbers.
 
4:42 PM
@rgchris Hopefully a very limited distribution. :-( Well, the way of open source is free will and all that jazz. I guess we'll have to see.
 
I'll have need on a couple of platforms. I do anticipate not being the only user, but for now I'm assuming that I am my only target.
If nothing else, I have clients and collaborators that will be end users if not necessarily developers themselves.
 
As long as we can agree that there is a certain level of patching which would be a poor choice when compared to emulating on top of state-of-the-art. And that level of patching is kept watch on.
I'd like to be kept up to date on when a feature change is something you "like in isolation, but are willing to live without, to use a version that doesn't have N other changes" vs. something you actively dislike.
I personally think the (( )) to splice in COMPOSE with ( ) not splicing is great. Helps me avoid a lot of accidents. I personally like the tagging of which GROUP!s you want composed. Going back is difficult.
@rgchris A foundational change that I really would rather you accept is the nulls-don't-error and VOID!s are the means of doing "unset" variables. It would likely be worth it to me to wire that on your version.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE That's something I'd like to consider. You can speculate on the 'C' in R3C (could just be Chris), but 'C'onservative is part of it. I need to decide in some cases what that means, where it's justified.
 
@rgchris If you didn't read completely through NULL, BLANK!, VOID! : History Under Scrutiny it lays it all out.
The commit that changes it is probably not all that hard to apply.
 
I've read it, I'll need to look again at whether I've grasped it and how it behaves in the build version.
 
4:56 PM
A reason for preferring it is that it makes system behaviors effectively more Rebol2/R3-Alpha-like instead than less. e.g. if you commit to another point in Ren-C's history that was deemed a known imperfect turn, you're anchoring yourself on something that is not an "oh well, Redbol would have to do that anyway" instance.
So you'll have something that's not like Ren-C and not like historical Rebol that is considered "known bad"
I should think if there are any other changes in this category.
Guess I can scroll through the commit list and think if any jump out at me.
Build version experimented with // comments which were rejected and that's now to path! [_ _ _]
 
Seems reasonable. Having made this choice, I need to commence with conversion to see which items from that side become issues.
 
Things that are less important are stuff like print newline being legal, where you can do print "" or print [] if you want. :-/ But you can override PRINT as you wish, to allow ANY-VALUE! if you want, it's usermode. If you choose to edit mezzanine code that's fine, just try to keep the commits clear.
 
Yep, need to update tests to establish all this. Hopefully doing my conversions will bring other issues to light.
 
Don't know what to say on the PATH!/REFINEMENT! issue. I wish we could work through that, because /FOO has always looked pathy to me... and the whole thing clicks together nicely with all paths being immutable. So /FOO doesn't need a series allocation (fits in a cell, contents duplicated without worry of touching one and affecting another).
It's a can of worms. But I think the worms can be straightened out so it looks more like a can of pretzel sticks. And everybody loves pretzel sticks. :-)
The idea that you can make constraints tests, like BLOCK2! be some sort of datatype that checks for blocks of 2 elements (for instance), it means we'd still be able to have patterns that match what you would call REFINEMENT! even if implemented via path.
The sketchy thing about such tests is that if a function can give different answers at different times, any "a-priori" type-checking is out the window. So if you do a specialization you can't type check the thing at specialization time. That's a bit of a bummer. But maybe specialization just doesn't type check the arguments ahead of time, and it may work but stop working if your type constraints are sloppy. :-/
That version does not have COLLECT and KEEP in PARSE, and that was a feature you requested and like.
This change to THEN is minor-seeming but I'd really rather we be on the same page about it if you think you'll be using it. Relevant post: mutual exclusivity of THEN and ELSE
 
5:19 PM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE It's a trade-off I'm willing to make for now :(
 
The change that makes empty groups "vaporize" is fairly important, at least important to know about. Know that x: () 1 sets x to 1, and I feel there are good reasons for this: Permissive group invisibility. it's a small change
@rgchris Well, I'm not made of stone or anything. If you're going to do this, and if you're going to rejoin the daily feedback loop, I don't mind doing a few of these. If it's onerous I'll say so.
@rgchris I don't know how much you work with BINARY!, but ENBIN and DEBIN are good things. I would rather patch those in than have the cycle continue of suffering through the 32-to-64-bit type conversion issues.
VOID! assignments are permitted in SET-WORD!/SET-PATH! and I believe this has been a good change.
@rgchris I really would like you to have soft-quoted branching; this is maybe more significant than it looks (even if you think "I can live without it), because when a branch parameter is quoted you have to escape it in a GROUP! if your branch is in a variable or calculated.
However, it does fall into that category of "Redbol doesn't do it that way" so having you choose that side of the fence is all right.
Might be less fun to not have it, but. <shrug>
The changes bringing ODBC up to date are all after that version, and I would say backpatching and maintaining that in a fork would fall into the "onerous" category. So hopefully none of the code you are converting uses ODBC.
You won't have AUGMENT, which is too bad.
Avoid putting 0 bytes in strings, that becomes not legal.
 
5:35 PM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE There are aspects of quoting that constitute one part of why I am making this break at this point. I do think it's the future, but I either feel it isn't settled or not settled in a way that I'm comfortable with.
 
@rgchris It would help to get that feedback. The only thing you've mentioned so far is that you felt (type of first ['x]) = (type of first [x]) or somesuch. And that's not true in Rebol2, R3-Alpha, or Red. I feel it would be bad if it were true.
We may distinguish TYPE and KIND. So KIND OF would get the underlying part-of-speech, while TYPE would be richer and more decorated.
 
I believe there was more, but I don't want to stake my codebase on whether my thoughts are right or wrong in such cases. For now, the R3C path is conservative enough (I hope) to work and lower the stakes for exploring the new options in Ren-C.
 
5:57 PM
Well I don't see the build version as being all that old despite its 2.5 year distance.
Feature-wise, 2020 hasn't changed too much. Almost two months of stackless tinkering (which does include some feature redesign here and there) but it should operate the same modulo enabling generators and coroutines. Bultiple return values, keystroke-level console hookability, removal of ad hoc crypto to use mbedTLS, ENBIN/DEBIN, ECHDE ciphers, various miscellany of that sort.
@rgchris maybe minor thing: TAKE allowing empty block to just return NULL. If you agree with that, not hard to patch on.. commit e88ee79d9d0fea4ea0ca3605a7c5b1f5b0602b61
Last year had a lot of distractions, between conference and video editing and various months of not Rebol. After the conference there was AUGMENT and ODBC fixes for orr721. Before the conference was mostly web/Wasm work and TCC.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Primarily it's the nature of the changes. Prior to this version, most changes were semantic. Following this breakpoint, more elemental changes were made to datatype/syntax.
 
@rgchris Well, if you want to stay in the world where quote x gives you x then that is Redbol-like. I do think that literal x (lit x) being x with quote first [x] => 'x is better.
That is the future as I see it. And I'm a bit puzzled on why people wouldn't like to be able to say group: '(some group)
 
6:13 PM
I'm not wholly against it, I just see it in flux.
 
I wouldn't say it particularly is.
There are some odd features I've tried that I will probably kill off, like letting you write routines that automatically remove quote levels and then add them back on.
I really think seeing a QUOTED! as a kind of container (like BLOCK!) that holds a single element is probably the best way to look at it.
Maybe even to the point that first first ['x] is x.
Though I'd rather punt on that and keep it an error for now. UNQUOTE is more obvious (can be parametrized with how many levels). DEQUOTE to remove all quotes.
Soft-quoted branching really can look very clean I think. In the stackless era, it's particularly nice, because if condition '[some data] doesn't need to run a trampoline cycle. So it's visually lighter than if condition [[some data]], saves on a series node and comes back faster.
Soft quoted branching also makes IF...ELSE interchangeable with EITHER, due to what I hinted at in answering Red's issue question of "Core: should operators use the result from funcs with literal arguments? (if f: func [:x][x * 2] , should f 1 + 2 be equivalent to (f 1) + 2 ?)"
Just noticed that say "literal arguments" and not "quoted arguments". So that's going along with my terminology shift, either intentionally or unintentionally.
@rgchris There's no particular harm in not using it, and it does fall under the "Redbol won't have it". Seems a shame to not get your feedback from the experience. But I guess it's not really a big deal, there's lots of other things to worry about.
As you're likely not running much on Windows machines, you probably won't be affected terribly by the carriage returns. But do review how things are changing with Newlina Non Grata. Files with CR in them won't load by default, and on no platform does save output them.
CALL got some fairly major renovations; those renovations kind of depend on UTF-8 everywhere.
@rgchris what does the build version you're using say for compose [([a b]) (([c d]))]?
 
6:48 PM
[a b [c d]]
 
@rgchris Interesting, well then I guess you can also do compose <*> [(<*> [a]) ([b])] and get [[a] ([b])] ?
 
I'd personally try to avoid that.
 
@rgchris Whether you avoid it, is it there?
 
I believe so.
No, it's not.
 
Does HELP show a refinement for it?
like COMPOSE/MATCH ?
 
6:56 PM
It's the bar! version.
 
Hm?
Note there is no BAR! any longer, | is a WORD! bound to an "invisible" function.
Just asking if COMPOSE has a refinement for providing something to look for to call out what GROUP!s get composed or not. Allowing you to put that up front via <skip> came later, even when the feature was available via refinement.
 
    :pattern [<skip> lit-bar!]
        Distinguish compose groups, e.g. [(plain) (* composed *)]
    value [any-array!]
        Array to use as the template for substitution

REFINEMENTS:
    /deep
        Compose deeply into nested arrays
    /only
        Insert arrays as single value (not as contents of array)
 
Oh, that one.
(| banana clips |)
Technically you could still do that. | is invisible and a WORD!. So having a | in the tail is a no-op, and having the | on the head can be recognized.
I assume it should have said [(plain) (| composed |)]
Anyway, doesn't matter. More important is the (( )) to splice...which I very much appreciate. It makes what's going on in a COMPOSE a lot clearer I think, and prevents accidents.
Cost-wise I will point out that COMPOSE/ONLY is a PATH! with two items in it, which actually costs more than two items because it's [COMPOSE ONLY <end-marker>], which generally takes a 4-element allocated series to hold.
And you need a series node to point to that 4-element allocation.
((x)) has a cost over (x) by just one node, due to various forms of finesse. No data allocation required.
You save 128 bytes on 64-bit platforms by having a feature controlled by (( )) instead of some-func/refinement. Pretty slick. (Not to mention the benefit of better locality for not having to go jump to the data allocation from the node)
 
@rgchris Regarding limitations, in the past rebol has been billed as a personal productivity language. Simple one liners, etc. But lots of seemingly simple things which you might want to try with rebol are in fact quite challenging. Maybe you want to play mp3 files, or just build a tool to automate upding the ID3 tags of your mp3 collection.
Or maybe you decide to build a script ot maintain an email discussion list. The core team at RT tried this with SELMA and they had to abandon it.
Ultimately Rebol gave the impression of being a simple tool which was best suited in addressing simple problems.
But most developers don't have simple problems, they have complex ones. Or sometimes they think they have simple problems, but suspect they might turn into complex ones. And nobody likes to start with a tool suitable for one domain of problems only to find out they need to retread and change tools later.
 
7:35 PM
@Edoc I think there's a conventional style inherent in Rebol that leads one to assume things will be simple: e.g. read some-site which is nice, but papers over a few of the subtleties of using HTTP. I don't think that's the fault of the language, per se, just an approach that hadn't been thought through.
 
7:48 PM
@rgchris I understand you're between a rock and a hard place on choosing what to use. You have a long investment in Rebol2, which seems to have had a last build in Jan 2011, so in six months it will be a decade since it's been changed. You have the experience to see that Red is repeating the pattern...focusing on the "sideshow", failing to sell a language, going closed-source and trying to operate on a consulting basis using their tool as a secret weapon.
R3C is a more robust choice than R3-Alpha by quite some measure. I do think it's commented enough that if minor things bother you, you would likely stand in a fair position to change it.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE I also see Red as having actively split an already small community base.
2
I understand some of the reasoning, but it's disappointing.
 
If I put on a certain pair of glasses, I can see it as looking like some of us (e.g. me) seem to be splitting hairs while the hourglass runs out on our lifetimes.
And if people spend a week talking about the arity of WHILE vs. UNTIL, or what characters are legal in TAG!, you can imagine coming back ten years later and seeing the same conversation.
It's not that hard to imagine. :-P
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE I know it seems a retrograde step, but I don't see it as being in competition. It's sort of a safe space before contemplating the new.
As I said above, in effect drawing a line under what Rebol 3 might have been.
 
I think my "veto" of the idea was that I imagined being asked to be on the hook for bugfixes and features. If we reframe this as something assumed to be accomplishable via emulation, and if you are willing to put in hours to hack and think, then paying it back with fixes that are within reason isn't so bad an exchange.
But I'd like to apply some of the patches mentioned above. If something doesn't depend on UTF-8 Everywhere, it may be easy.
The NULL/VOID!/BLANK! is very much the most important. This means missing refinements will be NULL, and as for what "found" refinements are I never really settled myself on it.
What I like about used refinements incorporating the symbol of the refinement itself was that it made chaining easier, if the names of refinements matched.
It may seem cool to say foo: func [x /only] [bar/(only) x]...but now you've got an assumption that the refinements are named the same thing encoded in there. How much harder is it to write foo: func [x /only] [bar/(if only 'only)]? Is it better to just let a refinement with no arguments be canonized to TRUE / FALSE ?
(I used to espouse that position, if one looks back, as being better than TRUE / NONE.)
So maybe it is only refinements with arguments that use NULL as their unused state, while refinements with no arguments are forced to LOGIC!. I dunno. The one little teeny detail that gets me is that if you create a function frame, all elements default to NULL, and if you execute it and mutate it to FALSE you disrupt the state.
But... then you either force people to canonize the refinement argument somehow, or you permit truthy/falsey things and then canonize it yourself. What's the difference between canonizing to @only or /only or only vs. NULL or the cleaner-seeming canonization to TRUE/FALSE (which Red does, and I used to advocate).
The game has changed on inheriting refinements, because you don't typically implement that by foo/(inherited-refinement1)/(inherited-refinement2) anyway. You use ADAPT or SPECIALIZE or something. Functions which share refinements usually do so for a reason and the relationship is captured in the functional composition.
@rgchris Anyway, I think I've tried about everything I can try for that case. The one thing I do believe is that it's okay for the PATH! evaluation after a function to resolve to NULL if you want to opt out of a refinement, even if NULL doesn't seem to be the kind of thing you'd want to be a no-op in ordinary GROUP! evaluations....
>> obj: make object! [x: 10]

>> obj/(if false ['y])/(if true ['x])
== 10
Does that seem... good or bad?
It doesn't have to be a uniform policy. OBJECT! and ACTION! can treat nulls differently...you could opt out of a refinement selection, but not out of a field selection.
I think I want to go back to TRUE/FALSE for how refinements without arguments are canonized. @giuliolunati ? @ingo ?
Beyond chaining, though, there is a debugging benefit to be considered.
‌>> foo: func [/x /y /z] [print mold compose ["Foo called" (x) (y) (z)]]
‌
‌>> foo/x
["Foo called" /x]
‌
‌>> foo/x/y
["Foo called" /x /y]
 
8:55 PM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE I don't know if it's good for an object, at least that example—if, for example, there was a possibility of it inadvertently ending up obj/y/x
 
@rgchris If you think of an extensible type system, the question is raised as to whether it is up to the type interpreting the path dispatch to decide if it wants to give meaning to null, or if the path dispatch mechanism prohibits it out of hand.
 
I'd expect that to be obj/(null)/x (or obj//x if equivalent).
 
Things have changed foundationally, since NULL ceased to be erroring.
What used to concern me was stuff like obj/(:mispelt-varable)/x which would have given NULL. That's not happening anymore. VOID! is returning to UNSET!-like behavior, e.g. noisy, for things.
 
Even if it's not an error, the vaporization on a path seems problematic. Less so for a function call as path order has less implications.
 
That suggests saying it's up to the thing on the left to decide if it has a problem with it or not.
 
8:59 PM
(if no arguments)
 
Which is where we are at right now. Initially path dispatch errored before dispatching. Now we're in the territory of where you can actually MAP! a VOID! to something.
Because VOID! (UNSET!) is back, and it's a value.
red>> m: make map! reduce [() 1020]
*** Script Error: unset! type is not allowed here
Not legal in Red. Appears to crash Ren-C. I'll look into it, but my leaning is that it be legal. ANY-VALUE! is a legal key, but NULL is not.
You likely don't want something like m: make map! [10 20] with m/(if false [10]) to give you the map back.
 
No. I think the original path count should matter.
 
9:46 PM
@rgchris So I think, that allowing the value on the left the ability to interpret NULL is probably the better policy, and you allow ACTION!s to pass on NULL. Seems okay. As I say, a lot of this has come out of the post I'd like you to sign off on and would like to be patched into r3c. forum.rebol.info/t/null-blank-void-history-under-scrutiny/1249
I have a rough tally of what it would take to patch in what I'd call my non-negotiables to R3C, and it's about a day or two of work.
It's work I'm willing to do, as I've frequently done more for less, if it means getting your buy-in and re-participating in discussions.
 
10:01 PM
My magic 8-ball suggests that there is going to be an "audience of one" for r3c. It would be nice if people like Oldes weren't so bullishly independent as to not want to come to the negotiating table, but some people don't like to negotiate. I look for win/win scenarios, which often means selecting "(d) none of the above"
But if r3c is plausibly emulatable, it does no harm, and tests the bendability of the mainline. So priority if you're serious about using it is to shore up anything mainline never plans to be able to emulate.
 
10:18 PM
@rgchris I feel like we might need a cryptocurrency where I tip you in observation points, and you spend it on patches. Maybe Red was ahead of the curve. :-)
 

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