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2:04 AM
posted on June 06, 2020 by @hostilefork Brian Dickens

@hostilefork wrote: Here's a page posted on Red's GitHub: Red Design Questions Wiki I'm bookmarking it here, along with some quick review notes. Vector & matrix DSL design No real comment, other than R3-Alpha's VECTOR! has been removed from the core (you can build a Ren-C without it) and hence it isn't one of the built-in types identified by a by

 
 
4 hours later…
6:31 AM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE issue 1035 is blocking me in new-build experiments. I would need a workaround working with prebuilt r3-make binaries ...
 
6:49 AM
^--- not sure of that, please ignore it.
 
 
5 hours later…
11:36 AM
@giuliolunati If worst comes to worst, you can copy/deep the function body before running it (?) :-/
 
 
2 hours later…
1:10 PM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE I was totally wrong about that issue, there was an error in my code ;-/
 
 
1 hour later…
 
2 hours later…
Hi, @HostileForksaysdonttrustSE! Long time!
How have you been doing?
 
@Pierre Hello, sorry for the long name but I've decided to cease participating in posting Q&A on StackExchange.
 
What does "SE" mean? StackExchange, I suppose, am I right?
 
Yup.
We're still here in chat because we were scraping content out and going to do a new chat, but things got a bit derailed in society in general.
 
"trust" => I have an old tale about that verb...
Society derailed? Yes, it seems, indeed.
 
4:22 PM
So what with viruses and riots, we've been too busy to move.
 
WASM: We Are Suxeal Morons?
Acronyms...
 
;)
 
WebAssembly is a standards-based way to get near-native performance in non-JavaScript code (that can come from compiled C or whatever language). It's about as good as running code on your native machine, but you can call that codebase from JavaScript.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE hey! Plenty of things seem to have happened on that Ren-C side of the world!
 
4:29 PM
@Pierre Things move along...
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Yes, great! I must admit that I got outside of that Rebol world for a long while. Glad to see that.
I paid some attention to Red, it is progressing well, and I had the -wrong- impression that all other Rebol stuff was stalled. How did I get this false idea is a mistery.
 
@Pierre Several factors. My belief was that Rebol2 was "undercooked" as a language, and had kind of reached its limits. It had gone about as far as it could go without a long process of vetting and redesign, before it could actually be competitive and interesting among modern language choices (at least to more than a handful of people). There's thus little recruiting effort while those things are established.
 
"undercooked"?
 
Red's opinion differed--believing that beelining for a faster Rebol2 which was open source (and could compile to native code) could attract momentum and investment, that is more effective than belaboring foundational design points. This disagreement--and unwillingness to budge on much of anything despite investing significant resources in Red--demonstrated a headstrong attitude. Nenad's interest in control exceeds his interest in collaborating to make a technically credible artifact.
 
How about Rebol3 then: how would you qualify its "cooking status"?
 
4:42 PM
@Pierre Worse. It raised the ambition on scope of application, while undercutting most of the usefulness that it accomplished when it "stayed in its lane", so to speak...as a less ambitious utility program that did a few convenient things well.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE many interesting English words I didn't know. Thanks to you (and duckduckgo) for enlarging my English vocabulary.
 
@Pierre :-)
In any case, Ren-C's ambition is to deliver on the vision (or what I perceive as the vision) of R3-Alpha...though it has expanded a bit to where people feel it might be Rebol4 or Rebol10 or something.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Good. You lost me.
 
Anyway, I monitor Red and I'm not terribly impressed.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Well, Nenad has a quite clear vision of what he wants, and he keeps Red within that vision. Now, some expectations sometimes don't quite match with Red's calendar, some business opportunities got missed, unfortunately.
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE I'm sorry for my dumb question, but I'm quite lost: does Ren-C inherit from Rebol3? In other words, is it "just" a fork of Rebol3? Or is it something different?
(listening to Amish stuff at the same time: deep thoughts, that's fun, thanks!)
 
4:49 PM
@Pierre I was on board with the original vision (I edited the talk What is Red?, I designed the tower icon). Still sounds good if you watch it and take it literally; if that's what it actually was, I'd still be interested.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Yes, I remember that stage of things. Seven years ago already! Holy pangolin...
 
@Pierre Ren-C started from R3-Alpha's codebase, though it's moving on. The project is about to be relicensed (LGPL3) and given an official name, breaking from Rebol entirely.
Basically it's a full redesign, but several elements of the "game" that Carl set up have been held to faithfully.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE "breaking from Rebol" => oh no........
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE "Ren-C started from R3-Alpha's codebase" => was there a R3-Beta?
By the way, what happened to Rebol3? Has it evolved since? Or is it "replaced" by Ren-C?
 
The aim is to have a Rebol2/Red emulation mode (the REDBOL module). Ren-C is very acrobatic, so designing such an emulation is doable. I actually consider this a useful challenge--I'd consider it a defect if it could not be done--at least mostly.
@Pierre Carl's development on R3-Alpha stalled, with the GUI development mostly outsourced to Saphirion ("Saphir")...which was closed-source but an arrangement they had together. This work was then acquired by Atronix for their version of Rebol so they could have a GUI on Linux. They still use it today, though they don't write new features or do any interpreter design any longer.
Ren-C branched off of the Atronix codebase, minus the GUI. That meant it tried to keep FFI features, HTTPS, locale support, etc. which had been present in the Atronix-Saphirion codebase working.
However, what started for me as a minor exploration into seeing how hard it would be to implement pet features evolved into a major sanitization and redesign operation.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Well, I have already a hard time translating some Rebol2 code so that it can run in the Red interpreter... Redbol would be a module to allow Rebol2 OR Red code, right?
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE "acrobatic"?...
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE okay. And is that Atronix "latest" (IIUC) version open-source, or does it keep that closed-source inheritance?
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Good. I had undestood that in a different way: some code that is in such a delicate balance that just a mere miracle keeps it away from crashing the whole environment (computer, house, country...)... Thanks for clarification.
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE FFI => Forces françaises de l'intérieur? I guess not.
 
@Pierre Their latest may not be published on GitHub. You can watch the video where David talks about their acquisition by a significantly larger company. If you did not notice BTW, most of the videos are subtitled.
@Pierre Foreign Function Interface. This is so that if you have a DLL (you know that one...) and you can call it with C functions, there is a way to load that DLL and call those C functions from Rebol without writing C code. Shixin gives a talk on this too (there the subtitles are very necessary...he was amazed I got it all as he said he couldn't even understand himself when he watched it!)
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Yes, I noted that. This is great, thanks for that effort: subtitles are very useful for people whose ears (like mine) are not quite familiar with some kinds of American accents...
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Congratulations!
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE ;)
 
@Pierre I don't know if it's the healthiest way to spend time, especially if one is crazy to start with. But I'm too invested to give up now, I guess.
 
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE I know some other ways to spend time which are not so healthy. Ending up in the middle of the Sahara and being abandoned during a 3 weeks period without logistics, without supplies, without electrical supply, breathing mercury vapors, during the month of August (temperature was well above 50°C, didn't have a thermometer, though), without a vehicle. And then ending up in hospital. And stung by a scorpion.
I forgot: no communication. We (me and 12 local people) soon had deep anthropophagic pulses, considering each other as potential steacks.
 
5:14 PM
@Pierre Well, all right. Then you probably know sort of what I feel like. :-)
 
I guess it's somehow healthier to redesign a language implementation, no?...
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE ;oD
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Are you doing this on your own, or is there a whole hurd of (crazy) developers who blindly obey your Directives?
 
@Pierre Just the people here, who hopefully non-blindly listen and weigh in occasionally. @giuliolunati works on mobile features (he talks about them in the video, impressive!) and while most people don't really hack on the C code or build system anymore, he's doing just that right now.
 
I must confess that, when that Ren-C thing started, I didn't quite get the basic idea. And then I got diverted.
 
Well, I don't know that I got the basic idea either, beyond that I'd griped a long time that Rebol wasn't open source and I thought I'd look through it to see what made it tick.
And when I start looking at modifying things I have certain standards regarding formalism (memory not being corrupted, for instance) and if tooling can find those sorts of things I feel that's important. So passing all the tests without triggering any errors that could be caught with a memory checker seemed like a good contribution to an open source effort.
Trying to add a feature here or there got me interested in hacking on it, and at the time it was something I enjoyed talking about with Andreas or BrianH or whoever, though only a few of that crowd remain today.
The talks I give (Amish Programming, FizzBuzz/Timelessness) try to paint a picture of how I see it today.
But the years of looking so deeply have left various scars. There is a scene in the movie "Good Will Hunting" in which a respected math professor sees a janitor solve a proof he cannot. The frustrated professor points out that there are only six people in the world who can tell that the kid is more skilled than he is... and that he is one of those six people. (So he wishes the student to not waste his talent.)
Sometimes I feel a kind of reverse version of this with Red. ("Bad Will Hunting?" :-P) "There's only six people in the world who care (or know to care) what they're neglecting, and I'm one of them..." :-/ Most people could not read Carl's code at all, much less critique or improve it. I find it very frustrating to see adult programmers who insist on seeing Rebol for what they imagine it to be, vs. what it is.
 
 
1 hour later…
6:37 PM
Just noticed that with Ren-C's interpretation of LOGIC! as "continue parse or not" that parse ... [... some-flag [some rule] ...] is the same as parse ... [... :(if some-flag '[some rule]) ...] (lacking any generality of course, and perhaps less obvious if "some-flag" has a name not obviously suggesting it's being used as a condition)
 
 
2 hours later…
8:51 PM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE So it's even more concise.
 
9:39 PM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE In my work with ePub, Was XML Flawed from the start? once again strikes me as painfully relevant. The gymnastics required to produce a valid OPF XML file to describe the most basic metadata for an eBook is far worse that anything Carl outlined. Rebol's vocabulary for describing things, code and whole applications is still fresh and visionary* in a world that continues to make terrible decisions.
* if as yet not fully realised.
<dc:creator id="book-creator">Lewis Grassic Gibbon</dc:creator>
    <meta refines="#book-creator" property="file-as">Gibbon, Lewis Grassic</meta>
    <meta refines="#book-creator" property="role" scheme="marc:relators">aut</meta>
=>
Author: "Lewis Grassic Gibbon" file as "Gibbon, Lewis Grassic"
(even if you wish to add all the contextual metadata, such as which authority is defining 'Author', URL's can easily be subbed in there at little cost of expression)
dc:creator "Lewis Grassic Gibbon" file as "Gibbon, Lewis Grassic" marc:relators=aut
 
9:56 PM
I want to bind a block to "current" context, say b: [some code] bind b 'b Q: Is there another way, without 'b ?
 
10:22 PM
BTW: I found it very handy &: enfix :join to build strings: a: "path/" b: "file" c: ".ext" then a & b & c => "path/file.ext"
 
@giuliolunati There's no current context... though you could clearly make a function that took 'b and then would call bind get b b.
 
10:44 PM
@rgchris XML does certainly suck. :-) But there's a lot of simple things that get out of hand pretty quickly when you try to use Rebol's code-as-data in practice. People early on learn that it's not round-trippable, that you'll lose your comments and indentation, that objects render oddly and blocks get aliased multiple places and binding goes away... etc...
I've lamented how many practical data exchange scenarios that JSON seems to do well at isn't easy or obvious for Rebol clients to match...even when both sides are committed to running Rebol. :-(
 
The 'etc' needs a good airing.
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Is this a sense or do you have examples? Is it conventions that are prevalent in JSON or is it innate to the syntax?
Comments/indentation should not be a showstopper. Both could be handled with a customised loader without rewriting the general parsing rules (not unlike the way my recent script cleaner works), question is—what are the compelling case uses that might make it worth adopting as part of the package (or at least a linked module)?
 
@rgchris The most I've written about my feelings here is in the block and object parity for path picking post, which gets at some of my sense that there isn't quite enough of a commitment to keeping things in a "concrete" format...
 
11:02 PM
@HostileForksaysdonttrustSE Though I don't agree with the syntax choice, this is the reason Red went with #() (I still maintain that should have been used for construction syntax and #[] be used for maps). I'm more convinced than I was that the general approach doesn't need further revision. I do have some other thoughts for how to ensure conformity (or not and other lax loading issues).
2
 
I guess I've just not had a lot of personal success with Rebol as a bidirectional data format. It can be a good way to express your intent for loading things in, but I feel getting what I want out of it is difficult.
And given that there's that asymmetry, I wonder if there are some diminishing returns in using the same syntax for your code and data when compared with--say--getting pure FP benefit via something like Elm and then read and write Yaml or JSON. <shrug>
All things being equal, you don't want to be using a different notation... sure. I'm just saying that I feel like getting something "satisfying" will--at least for me--require the appearance of some figuring that hasn't been done yet. If others are satisfied, ok.
 

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