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3:36 PM
@JacobGood1 How goes it?
 
still perpetually lurking...
 
@JacobGood1 Stackless is hard. But important. When your language can unplug and re-plug stacks, that makes a lot of difference in expressivity. I like adopting common terms when I can, so I made a file called "Trampoline": en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
People use that word for various different phenomena
Like computer science hasn't exactly agreed on what a "trampoline" is, but in the Lisp community, it means what I was looking for.
Anyway, it's all been a bit weirder than I thought. I always had the basic "oh, crap, so your primitives start becoming state machines and you keep re-entering and using gotos on all the evaluations". Which is a given.
Which sounds like a pain in the ass, but also doable. Which makes the nuances kind of the interesting part.
I have these words that I kind of came to adopt or like over time, and one is "reification"
So reification--or to "reify" something, is to maybe take something ephemeral (e.g. a stack allocated construct) and promote it to a lifetime that maybe is GC-managed, for instance.
Anyway, stackless makes you "reify" a lot of stuff, you get forced to heap alloc things that you used to stack alloc, and you feel a little dirty about it if you get wasteful. So it makes you wonder how to curb the reification when and where you can.
@JacobGood1 ^--but that was real, actually corraling global state, dismantling global structures such that they suspend and resume.
It's going to be better than TCL or Perl or whatever. I know you're a Haskell skeptic, but of course I sit around and go "oh, jeez, this is peanuts compared to FP", so.
But, look I'll beat TCL and Perl and all that jazz. Not like that's going to impress anyone.
Anyway, people have gone down this road before, it's sort of a rite of passage I think. At some point you realize that if your high-level non-assembly-ish language is worth anything, you have to go stackless.
I understand the skepticism, because it's like "well aren't you almost more-or-less turning your system into a virtual machine?"
But that's where the details start to matter. Sure, you could turn it all into a bytecode and get your suspend/resume from that.
but what if you didn't. What if you didn't take the easy road. What if you still wired it up, all C89 like, all still readable... and... didn't use a bytecode.
 
4:01 PM
I am convinced that "coroutines'' are the trump card of imperative languages over fp. I spend a lot of time in Clojure these days. I like functional programming, but I still like all the other paradigms as well. In some cases, mutation leads to very concise, clean, fast code. Here lately, I have been influenced by the smalltalk community, where interactive programming matters more than the language itself... anyway, what you are talking about sounds interesting.
 
@JacobGood1 Well, there is no such thing as "pure" FP that anyone can use, because "pure" FP has no side-effects, so it's always a compromise. You're always just "limiting side effects to contracts".
The Rebol claim is "paradigm neutral" which you can at some point mock, because... as you certainly know. All roads lead to Rome/Lisp, at some point.
Everything is variations on a theme, all of everyone could have declared it's all over at some point. "Wow, Beethoven's 5th is the best. No more music need be made, ever."
Evolution just doesn't like that, so even though everything old is new again it's the style. It's how people like it. Things are never over because no one wants to say "it's over".
What bugged me and a lot of people about Java was just how blatant about recycling and pumping ad dollars into old/known ideas it was.
 
4:20 PM
@JacobGood1 Anyway, this stackless conversion is a bit of an annoyance, but... I kind of am starting to get a bit motivated in the goroutines area, and when you look at things like the multi-return strategy it's not like there's not a competitive angle, here.
Stackless gives you green threads, and then... well, that's a lot of options.
 
 
5 hours later…
9:12 PM
There are some neat things going on in the Java camp, regardless of how cool one perceives Java to be: ssw.jku.at/General/Staff/ManuelRigger/thesis.pdf
 

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