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12:15 AM
@johnk don't know if you saw but we are going to try stabilizing on the most recent build of r3/hf
Hopefully @rgchris can make all his r3 libraries consistent with that.
 
@GrahamChiu He's using the royal "we", as in "I = Graham". However, I do want to bring everything up to sync shortly, so any of the do <tag> code should either work or be given up. I was getting httpd running and have a bit more to do on that, because I was simplifying the "devices" and paring that all down to make it manageable.
 
What other sort of we is there?
 
Snapshot-wise, my own interest is Beta/One and locking individual features.
 
@HostileFork but that is for Q1 .. too far away
 
You're free to have your feelings on that and do what you want, but just mentioning that my participation or commitment to that particular phrasing of "we" is limited.
I do support the idea of having a "latest recommended build" and I support the idea of picking it based on it doing something useful for someone.
But, the way I would honor such a commitment would be--as I've said--more like "if something changes that breaks that thing, I would fix the impacts on the thing"
 
12:23 AM
My thought is to change it only for bug fixes but not new syntax or functionality if it breaks anything
 
And then both the thing and the updated binary could be updated in lockstep.
 
usermode should not be broken
 
That's a fine rhetoric for after Beta One. Before beta one, the problem of saying "only bugfixes and no new features" is that you are pretty much by definition talking about branching. And thus you are talking about someone doing the patching work, to fritter out and make builds on that branch by teasing out the parts that fix a bug vs. the parts that change a behavior.
Thus you are either going to be doing some C work on that, or you need me in the we.
I can try to make bugfixes isolated in a way they will patch easily but I can't promise such things a priori.
Depends on the nature of the bug and its dependencies.
In other (very good) news, on the heels of the end of "barification"...we may be about to see the end of "blankification". New idea.
New idea in a nutshell: print "Hi" and other procedures don't return null, they return an "unfriendly" ANY-VALUE! type, now a VOID!. It's a value--in the typical sense of you can put it in an array if you really want to--but it tries to make that inconvenient. By being a value it can be distinguished from NULL, so if true [print "Hi"] else [...] won't run the else branch, as #[void] left is a value.
Then...quite simply...disallow IF from having branches that evaluate to null. You just can't. Causes an error. Then kill off all the IF* and SWITCH/OPTs of the blankifying world.
 
@HostileFork Not really. We just leave bugs in situ.
 
Well the good news is that with chaining and adapting hijacking and function compositions and such, it's getting easier to make workarounds. The system is acrobatic, and more so every day.
Which is much of the intent.
 
 
1 hour later…
1:51 AM
Hm, so in the quest to rid the world of blankification...what should condition: true | while [condition] [condition: false | continue] do? The argument is that it shouldn't return null as that is the protocol for BREAK. And we know that CONTINUE in a general sense doesn't mean CONTINUE/WITH BLANK, because if you're using MAP-EACH or similar a continue will omit material, it's more like CONTINUE/WITH VOID.
Options would be: return blank (what it does today), always raise an error (seems lame, it would mean you could never continue on the last step), return whatever the previous body evaluation returned, and return an error if the body never returned anything. That sounds confusing. So perhaps this is one place blankification stays.
 
 
3 hours later…
4:38 AM
@HostileFork @GrahamChiu This is an interesting discussion. I do agree that waiting for beta one is a good thing
In support of @GrahamChiu I think that locking in a version would also be helpful now
 
It's a tough moment in time to be doing that, when I'm sort of doing "expanded feature freeze" and going back and tuning things to lock cards down.
 
I think putting any overhead of supporting this frozen version on @HostileFork would be counter productive as he is making such excellent progress and I don't want to see that interupted
3
 
e.g. I'm not right now trying to add features per se. There are changes happening, but those changes are coming from cleaning up things that are there.
There's a lot of clarity offered by having so many features in play. It shows you what you can change and what you can't...there's a sort of "instant reconciliation" for any change to see if it simplifies or if it breaks something.
 
I don't want support. If someone finds that the current snapshot doesn't work for them then they can use another version.
But we need some base level of functionality for everyone to agree upon.
 
The design starts to become self-guiding/self-defining, which is what I believe pinning down fundamentals does for you.
 
 
2 hours later…
6:54 AM
posted on June 22, 2018 by @hostilefork Brian Dickens

@hostilefork wrote: In Planning Ahead for BigNum Arithmetic, I proposed prefix add become mutating, while infix + become a crafty specialization that can take in a platform-sized integer and give back a “locked” integer (usually platform-sized). This would mean that despite INTEGER! being BigNum, you wouldn’t pay any performance penalty or notice a diff

 
7:45 AM
posted on June 22, 2018 by @hostilefork Brian Dickens

@hostilefork wrote: Ren-C now has a VOID! datatype. It’s what PROCEDURE returns, and it’s unfriendly (on purpose): >> type of print "Hi" Hi == void! >> if (print "Hi") [print "can't use in IF or CASE conditions"] Hi ** Script Error: VOID! values are not conditionally true or false >> var: print "can't assign via SET-WORD! or SET-PAT

 
 
5 hours later…
12:58 PM
Trying to simplify the device model...where "simplify" means "get rid of it". "Device" is not anything that ever made it to user consciousness, and some of the stuff it does is just like getting a global startup and shutdown function (which extensions do, but also are geared toward unloading and reloading as DLLs as they need to, as opposed to that lame static device table
Not that it's compiling or ready to be looked at really, yet, @kealist...but here's a heads up on some of the style of working on the serial extension...so I'll be trying to hammer through that...if you've still got the devices around to test on!
 
 
1 hour later…
2:18 PM
I'm wondering if HIJACK can be applied more generally.
   >> foo: copy [a b c]
   >> fooref: foo

   >> bar: copy [d e f]
   >> x: hijack foo bar
   == [a b c] ;-- gives back former content (with new node address)

   >> append foo 'z
   == [d e f z]

   >> fooref
   == [d e f z]
 
 
8 hours later…
10:27 PM
Not clear what hijack accomplished here
 
10:49 PM
@GrahamChiu Makes all references to a series use the same underlying memory as another series. There are series nodes, which if the data is bigger than will fit in a series node, point out to an arbitrary allocation to hold the data. This would be making distinct nodes point to the same data (and if the series was of the type that fit in a series node, mutating it to the type that uses a separate allocation so this is possible)
>> foo: copy [a b c]
>> bar: append (hijack foo _) 'd
== [a b c d]
>> foo
** Script Error: Series has been FREE'd
^-- Motivation for thinking about it...being able to "steal" a series's data, so that it can be mutated but any outstanding references to the old series will be errors if accessed. This could avoid copying if you want to be sure no one who had the prior series reference sees a modification.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:57 PM
So I'm deprecating the idea of copying versions of things being named with -OF. That's not what OF is for. Any routines like UPPERCASE-OF which are using -OF to mean "copy and don't mutate the argument" should be changed. If one really can't just say uppercase copy because you think folding the operations together can be done more efficiently, say UPPERCASE-COPY.
I'm messing with trying to make COPY do a copy-on-write and making it possible for low-level operations to detect when the copy-on-write hasn't happened yet, so it can merge the mutating and the copying into a single step. But this will only be available to core C routines using the internal API.
 

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