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12:00 AM
@moliad I agree to work more on the quality of the capture, particularly the sound, than worrying too much about the streaming (the first talk is 12AM for me so I don't think I'll be watching live)
 
12:25 AM
@johnk do you have an Altme account?
 
@GrahamChiu No
 
I'll get one for the bot
 
@GrahamChiu Ok
 
BTW, Kaj now has an API for the tryrebol site .. we should switch to using it
 
@moliad For the devcon for maybe we could schedule a group chat using something like a google hangout (which supports up to 10 users in a video chat). That way we could say hello face to face. If we did it around 9am on one of the days then it is not too late for Au/Nz people. What do you think?
 
12:31 AM
It's available under /api/ instead of /do/
The returned result is a multi-part value in a simple line oriented format
The parts are name/value pairs. The name is on the first line, and the value on the next lines
If a number follows a name on the same line, it's the number of lines of the value. If there is no number, the value is just a one-line string value
 
@GrahamChiu Sounds easy to parse
 
json would be better :)
 
I've added to the wish list on your github
I'm still struggling for free time at the moment to work on this unfortunately
 
@johnk That's okay ... slow but sure!
Hoping to have time today to integrate my new changes
 
1:19 AM
FYI - Just checked charges for EC2. After the first year of free usage on the micro EC2 instance there is a charge, but it looks ok. $35 for 3 additional years seems like good value. I think it is fair to assume we can keep this instance running for a long time. (or someone else can sign up for another free year)
 
I can pay the $35 if needed :)
Going to get new piggy bank to start collecting loose change :)
 
1:35 AM
@moliad I tried to log in using the password I believed I had used to sign up but either I forgot what I'd chosen or it's not working. In any case I emailed you.
@moliad The technical issues which might plague trying to get a good copy of the video taken can be disconnected from the issues of making a live hangout. A Google hangout or Skype session on a laptop resting with its camera nearby can do just fine, especially if people have their own copies of the slide decks to flip through.
I think it will be nice to try the live part for kicks but I'd like to have that be a bonus that someone not involved with the main A/V effort does. Film crews do this when making "behind the scenes" videos...they don't bother the cinematographer and director with getting feeds out of the main gear
They get their own take, and then later cut it together with what the A-team did.
I ordered the 2x lavaliers and some extra batteries. Each has a mono out, so we put that in a stereo joiner and it can be recorded by anything with a stereo line in. For safety I would add a splitter and feed this into a backup laptop that has enough HD space to just record the whole thing. As demonstrated with Doc's Red talk, an audio feed can be used with slides as a worst case backup if something else goes wrong.
 
I remember one of those devcons where I think Gabriele was presenting and his Mac didn't have an AV out that matched anything that everyone else were using.
Is it all HDMI these days?
And of course at a rebol meet, you can't expect power point slides because everyone tends to write their own presenter software!
 
1:55 AM
@GrahamChiu Every language with decent metaprogramming facilities has their own presentation language... well, at least Racket has its own thing
 
the rebol one even has a clock on it to count down how much time is left for the presenter
@Sgeo just re-read your post .. from every language to .. at least one!
 
@GrahamChiu I may have been exaggerating slightly >.>
 
@GrahamChiu HDMI and all these standards are just packaging formats. It's like "hey, it's a MOV file, I can play it..." Or "Hey it's a WMV, I can play it...". Then you find out that there are codecs and streams and stuff and all you have is the moral equivalent of a ZIP file standard; a container. The plugs may fit but there's a lot more to it.
Apple is the king of charging you for cables that are like "it's a USB link and a DVI link together, so you have only one cable instead of two" and then a passive component can tear it down. A passive component only a few people in the world bother to buy and they will charge you $50 for
 
@GrahamChiu I forgot all about that. Is this the one? - rebol.com/cgi-bin/blog.r?view=0335
 
I want to make a bunch of video expos'es on the cable madness, and teach people how badly they're getting scammed. I find it baffling when I just show the average person a stereo or mono headphone cable and they don't know what they're looking at with the bands on the end. They think adapters are somehow magic because "some work and some don't...I paid for a cheap one once and it didn't work, it only had sound in one ear of the headphones..." QED you should buy a gold tipped monster cable.
@GrahamChiu but to answer your question on what kind of video outs you have on a camera, the handheld consumer market often doesn't bother with video out because they expect you to be out in the park or something so they focus on streaming to an internal SD card (or worse, to internal non-volatile memory that you can't remove but need a driver to extract; a trend that I hope has died out by now)
 
2:10 AM
@HostileFork Actually that wasn't my Q. But just to point out that if you're expecting people to BYOD, make sure all the connectors are covered.
@johnk I think it was Henrik or someone else who wrote it.
@HostileFork Sometimes it is magic ..
some of the old mics needed boosting with certain sound cards .. some didn't.
so the neck mics that one used for video conferencing had to have batteries in them because the cheap sound card had some issues
 
@GrahamChiu When you start talking about HDMI though, my point is, that the connectors are only part of the problem. My monitor runs 2560x1600 at 60fps or whatever, uncompressed, and (a) single-link DVI can't do that so they invented some odd standard of dual-link that's just basically two monitors side by side that happen to be on the same screen, but (b) then they have DisplayPort but the quality of the cable and how much speed you expect it to carry matters
 
I guess we ask @moliad what sort of screen/projector he's got
I'm just recalling issues from past devcons ... and that we keep repeating or inventing new ways to stuff up.
 
I've learned to avoid the "if the plug fits, it will work" faith. It should work, and some Japanese call this the Poka-Yoke principle
 
which is why headphone mini stereo jacks are the same as microphone jacks because headphones are just microphones!
well, if you shout loud enough into them
 
@GrahamChiu ...and then you put an amplified audio output signal into an unchecked mic input and destroy your fancy recorder...
 
2:17 AM
these things should all be keyed
bloody engineers!
 
Reichart had an interesting plug design idea that was based on rings and the way the connector went in had some kind of safe tiered system of electrical tolerances, so basically all the connectors were the same they just had different lengths. The deeper you went, the higher the power tolerance; I don't remember the specifics but I thought "well, at least it's safe".
So a high power plug would have to be longer
 
or someone forced it
 
Anyway digital logic doesn't suffer from these problems, and we spend more time worrying about the protocols these days. I'd rather there be a little smart dongle you can put on the universal plug when you're doing a new setup and it would give you diagnostics on what was going on each end...if there was a speed issue or protocol issue.
If everything were working, you could just remove the intermediary dongle and go use it to diagnose some other connection. The dongles could be relatively expensive, the cables relatively cheap.
 
which reminds me .. why are HDMI cables so expensive? Are we all being ripped?
 
But the dongle really just needs to be a computer interface; give the computer enough info. Kind of how old school oscilloscopes don't make sense any more.
Well real cable engineering is more complex than just separating a plus and minus channel from each other in plastic. Coaxial was one of the early clever hacks, and it has been getting more clever. Lots of tricks in shielding etc. to get the speeds. It's not just about the pins connecting on either end with these things.
That said, yes. You were most likely ripped on your last cable purchase; it cost a fraction to make of what you paid. There was a slightly higher amount of sophistication of the factory that made it and commodity markets in Indonesian extension cord factories can't make them. They can make USB 1.0 cables with the same techniques they make extension cords, though. They have existing relationships with distributors they used to sell telephone cords to, who decide to break into the USB market
 
2:29 AM
So, I can get cheap $7 HDMI cables, and then also purchase $50 from the Sony shop.
 
Then there's Monster Cable. But they warned you--it's in the name! Let no one say there is no such thing as truth in advertising.
Anyway @moliad, the upshot of this conversation is we need to have a systems plan. I bought the Lavaliers and they are 9V powered and should run fine. To me, as the slide decks can be sync'd to good audio, my main issue is to make sure we have good audio and that we run some basic screencasting software to catch the slide decks.
We have due diligence and don't just have the screencasting machine catch the audio, but split it to a backup machine that is just running the audio to pick it up in case there's a problem and the screencasting software locks up or whatever. This machine is monitored by someone in the audience who makes sure the levels are good; like a sound man on a video set.
(I suggested @Adrian might do this. It shouldn't be too much of a distraction from watching the talks in general, this person just listens on headphones.)
(If the headphones sound fine, they don't have anything to do. If there are pops/clicks/problems they twist the gain, and if that doesn't solve it; they maybe do a hand signal to indicate a cut, as on a film set. I doubt we'd have to cut; of course when there are airplanes etc. it can't hurt to pause a talk.)
If we have a copy of the audio track that is already sync'd to the slides, that's super helpful and saves the umpteen hours it would take to line that up manually in a way that isn't uncanny. I'd like to intercut that with some video to keep things lively and give it a personality, but if it doesn't happen... it doesn't happen
And if the screencast solution fails for one or more talk, the backup is that for anything important it's just sync'd from the secondary audio recording.
And if one lavalier fails, we have a backup and the MC just doesn't have their own mic, we take my Snowball Mic set up on my camera's JobyPod and wing a wired mic on a podium for them. They can stand in one place for the introductions/Q&A.
I'll bring the gear and experience for all that, it kind of can't fail unless I die in a car crash en-route to Montreal, or they won't let me across the border because of that time I rented Strange Brew. Then the questions are how to get good video of the speakers to intercut and make the talks more lively.
 
2:47 AM
Perhaps you need a trello card for all of this?
 
@GrahamChiu I thought of making "Conference Checklist" but that is fairly broad. I want us to review slide decks for the talks, at least outlines, before we do them. Should that be separate for example?
Should we make a whole separate conference Trello?
And will everyone use it / read it if it gets made?
I think a card for each talk as a kind of review and feedback unit would be good
 
I guess discuss it with @moliad and anyone else involved
 
I mentioned the idea that speakers should not be interrupted with corrections ("No, it's not 516K, it's actually 530K" or whatever). It is not professional, and worse, inaudible on the recording...but the points may be valid. I just don't see why those kinds of things aren't fixed ahead of time.
 
Or put it into github so that it can be used for future meetings as well
 
Well I like the idea of a Trello for the conference and then each talk giver be in the phases of review, and maybe we throw some tasks there for the recording checklists etc.
 
2:54 AM
Sounds like you need a new board
 
@GrahamChiu Can you add one to https://trello.com/rebol? I think you made me an admin on the specific development board, but I don't seem to be listed on the group (lists you & adrian). Maybe you have buttons I don't have there, I don't see create a new one
Speaking of which, I want to publicly do a temperature-check about admin-ing in general. I started this chat room and considering that on the same day @GrahamChiu and @earl were there (plus much longer-standing members of the Rebol community) making them admins was a natural move.
 
I wanted things to be more inclusive and--indeed--we are here on stack chat regulated by the people who run the site who will decide if someone doesn't play nice. Our "admin" status is something that can be changed; as @GrahamChiu recently demonstrated a room administrator can remove any other room administrator on a whim
 
I didn't fully investigate the trello interface ... so don't know all the ins/outs
Seems that there is an organisational level admin having a closer look
@HostileFork Yeah, and also I created admins on similar whims!
 
Well one doesn't have to be an admin on a Trello to delete cards and such
 
3:01 AM
well, I created the board .. and since @Adrian should have all my rights .. I'll leave it to him to figure out all the other admin stuff
 
But I think these are baby steps in a more general "Trust Exercise". We need robots. They have slightly better trust due to the bonds of artificial friendship. (6 extra seconds of cooperation)
Trello seems to me slightly riskier as a place for institutional knowledge as import; it's not like Wikipedia where you have a full interface to history. What would happen if I went in and wiped all the cards? They probably have (internally) a transactional database that if someone did that they could roll it back, but that interface is not public... nor is the history public.
 
How does it differ from SO?
 
Well, by contrast, StackOverflow has Q&A edit history, full chat history, etc. And I have pretty good rep and do a lot of volunteer advocacy. So if something bothered me enough they might help me if I complained. (Although, as I've said, they seem to ignore and/or dislike most of my meta-suggestions... so that's probably not based on any true actionable fact. But as yet, my cries for assistance have not been about vandalism, or being removed from the admin list of the room, or whatever.)
Chat comments can be edited for two minutes, that's it. And you can see the edits if you care. Q&A has edit history, publicly viewable (like Wikipedia)
Trello is missing all that
 
I guess until something comes along better .. we just limp along as we always do coping with what we have now.
 
If we paid the support level, they'd probably listen to the person who pays the bill if someone went rogue and messed with things. But free is free. So I've wondered if we should casually invite people to join the Trello, e.g. here in the chat room, if they've not been "around" for a long time.
 
3:11 AM
@HostileFork I don't.
Only people I know, and only those who are R3 developers
 
@GrahamChiu Well, I'm just saying that our choices are a microcosm of a greater question of trust. And I've always wanted to be inclusive and operate on the Wiki principle of Assume Good Faith (until proven otherwise).
I'm just saying one beef I have with Trello is that it's a step further away from StackOverflow (closed source, centralized, but w/strong APIs for data extraction and with an anti-vandalism squad as a necessity) into something closed source where you keep your knowledge and invite people but there's no established chain of power checking or anti-vandalism
But while I am complaining about it, I am pointing out that it has some overlap with the "big questions" about trust that affect governance on rebol.org, rebol.net, etc.
Anyway, original point is: it's easier to assume good faith in a system you can scrape and get back to where you were if worst comes to worst. You can do that with StackOverflow, I don't really see it with Trello.
 
45
Q: Is it possible to export my data from Trello, to back it up?

Clare MacraeIs there a way to export my data from Trello to my own computer? I'm happy to accept any file format, so long as the data is in a file-format that can be parsed, e.g. I'm comfortable with writing a script to extract the data. (I always try, with any online data I create, to find a way to export...

 
Okay, well, new feature then (I read you couldn't, but it's a new product, things change and non-StackExchange links get outdated)
Maybe we don't need to be conservative just have a scraper that runs every couple of days, gets the JSON, checks it into GitHub or something
 
Hmm. Feature not present for me. Perhaps it's a paid feature?
 
Hope not, data export should always be free. But I did note it might be worth it to pay them. I like Trello, and like to support good products. I seem to recall it being cheap, and you can make private boards. Remember:
 
3:34 AM
Data export is a business feature trello.com/business-class
 
@GrahamChiu Grrr. I wish of business features they wouldn't pick that one.
@GrahamChiu Okay, my idea is we have a column for unreviewed talks (no slide decks), then talks being reviewed (slide decks provided), and finished reviews. I added A/V prep and A/V complete.
I will reiterate my point about this conference. It is partially a party, sure. We all like to party and it is a refresher. But for those who think this is a conference where big decisions will be made, I ask that the decisions be made BEFORE, mostly. Then we can party.
 
so hopefully no one will leave their talk preparation until the last moment
 
I think it is to be a show of seriousness. A show that Rebol and Red are on the same page (big!) A show that Saphir and Rebol are on the same page (big!). It's time to pull the technologies together and demonstrate awareness of how to thrive in the open source ecosystem, and teach people how to not live in the dark ages of programming.
Over-stressing about getting people live feeds of HD video is far, far secondary to having a nice site where people can watch and understand the cool things people are doing. The ten people who would be watching the video can cope if the laptop isn't going right with the picture of the speaker
 
tianshuo.github.io/trello/# - OS tool to "export" your trello data
 
I am focusing on getting a good audio feed, and if the decks have been given in advance then it's not a big deal. As I keep rehashing over and over... as decision-making goes, the existing Rebol codebases pale in comparison to what Rebol and Red can do if people get it
 
3:52 AM
I kind of like that I was able to compute my arguments to func
 
@Sgeo Hmmm? How so? You know, reflection has changed in R3 vs. R2. Probably for the better...
2
Q: What does positional PICK on an object do in Rebol 2, and what's the equivalent Rebol 3?

HostileForkIn Rebol 2: >> foo: make object! [a: 10 b: 20] >> foo/a == 10 >> foo/b == 20 >> first foo == [self a b] >> second foo == [make object! [ a: 10 b: 20 ] 10 20] >> third foo == [a: 10 b: 20] >> fourth foo ** Script Error: fourth expected series argument of type: series ...

 
I wrote something like
func reduce [arg] reduce [i forgot what I put in here]
 
@RebolBot
foo: func [x [integer!]] [print x]
probe words-of :foo
probe body-of :foo
 
Example usage: do-monad list-m [a: [1 2 3] b: [4 5 6]] [a + b]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> foo: func [x [integer!]] [print x] probe words-of :foo probe body-of :foo
[x]
[print x]
== [print x]
 
3:56 AM
f: func reduce [arg] reduce [:do-monad monad next-assigns result]
 
Oh, you mean you like that there's an eval injection point in the construction
 
yes
 
Yup, Rebol is good in general at letting you look at your source code as having patterns in it, and not really blocking you from meta-programming any particular part.
 
This is pretty much the thing that stands out to me about Rebol, in contrast with CL and Scheme, and similar to Tcl
 
Well I think I showed you my Tcl long-ago-wayback history, that I hardly remember. But Rebol is way better than Tcl.
 
3:58 AM
Although this amount of ability blocks static analysis, which itself could be useful for some metaprogramming
I don't remember seeing your Tcl stuff
I'm glad Rebol has first-class functions, but... there's a version of Tcl that adds those I think
Although the whole string obsession is annoying
 
Well I get into the finer points of C++ metaprogramming and it can blow your mind at times, it's just too bad C++ had such a crufty heritage and the only variant that is really going well is based on that.
 
I can't imagine bolting on static type checking to Rebol ala Typed Racket
So that's a form of metaprogramming you really can't do so well
 
2
Q: "What happened to my SFINAE" redux: conditional template class members?

HostileForkI'm new to writing template metaprogramming code (vs. just reading it). So I'm running afoul of some noob issues. One of which is pretty well summarized by this non-SO post called "What happened to my SFINAE?", which I will C++11-ize as this: (Note: I gave the methods different names only to h...

 
Well, hmm, does that count as metaprogramming
 
Well if you want to talk about that, talk to @DocKimbel. Red has more potential in this area.
@Sgeo I was a huge fan when I was in high school, hadn't seen anything like it. It was taking off at the time on unix machines. I ran Linux before people knew Linux was cool, when you installed it off 3.5" floppies and came from a newsgroup. And now I know Linux isn't actually that cool. :-) But open source is.
@Sgeo So you coming to the conference? I'll pay your admission fee!
Oddly I've met both the person who coined "Free Software" and the person who coined "Open Source". These are controversial terms. I think Richard Stallman should have tested his terminology and called it the "Software Freedom Foundation" and saved a lot of trouble, instead of confusing people with "Free as in Freedom, not Free as in Beer".
 
4:20 AM
@johnk pushed the updates .. no testing so hope it works!
 
@HostileFork It's in a different country...
 
@Sgeo Most of the world lives in a different country!
 
@Sgeo It's not in the country I live in!
 
@RebolBot version
 
@GrahamChiu 0.0.41.10 9-Jun-2013
 
4:26 AM
@rebolbot source speak-debug
 
source: make function! [[
    "Prints the source code for a word."
    'word [word! path!]
][
    if not value? word [print [word "undefined"] exit]
    print head insert mold get word reduce [word ": "]
    exit
]]
speak-debug: make function! [[message /local err][
    if error? set/any 'err try [
        to string! write chat-debug-target-url compose/deep copy/deep [
            POST
            [(header)]
            (rejoin ["text=" url-encode message "&fkey=" bot-fkey])
        ]
    ] [
        mold err
    ]
]]
 
ok, fixed that static bug
 
Although I am currently back on the market, my listing on mailorderhusbands hasn't been approved yet, though. I might be stuck in the US for a while yet.
 
@HostileFork Your real name is Akim?
Ok, this is a really funny site!
 
@GrahamChiu I identify most strongly with Marcus, because he keeps it real and knows how to discuss his mistakes.
"He spoke with the wisdom that can only come from experience, like a guy who went blind because he looked at a solar eclipse without one of those boxes with a pinhole in it and now goes around the country speaking at high schools about the dangers of looking at a solar eclipse without one of those boxes with a pinhole in it."
 
4:30 AM
A wanna be wizard ... except the hat is out of Dr Seuss
 
I need to think of what to wear for the conference. I have been wanting to recreate the outfit from the Running Man from Something Good. Think that would be good for the Rebol conference MC?
Everything has been easy to find but the hat. That's a hard hat to find.
I've been to specialty stores and... nothing
 
Your momma never taught you to sew??
 
@GrahamChiu My grandmomma taught me, but that's not the same as making leather (or faux-leather) hats. I've learned welding and that's hard too.
 
@HostileFork so you could make a hard hat instead?
 
I can't dance wearing a steel hat
 
4:41 AM
okay .. any good at knitting?
I suspect that the pattern could be readily reverse engineered .. or unravelled
 
No, I do not know how to knit, but welding often had a lot of similarities to what I've seen of knitting
So @moliad, @rgchris, @DocKimbel - I've made a card for each talk and kind of started up some task discussions: trello.com/board/recode-conference/51b934ee2c5011b571002336
 
Soldering is just knitting with wires
 
I should have a draft of the talk soon-ish. Very busy, but I'll try and I tend to work fast if something gets to the front of my queue
 
Anyone fancy doing some quick tests of form-date in R3?
@RebolBot
do http://reb4.me/r3/form-date.r
form-date/gmt probe now/precise "%c"
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> do reb4.me/r3/form-date.r form-date probe now/precise "%H:%M:%x"
13-Jun-2013/6:49:25.949168+2:00
== "06:49:25.949168"
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> do reb4.me/r3/form-date.r form-date probe now/precise "%c"
13-Jun-2013/6:49:41.850406+2:00
== "2013-06-13T06:49:41+02:00"
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> do reb4.me/r3/form-date.r form-date/gmt probe now/precise "%c"
13-Jun-2013/6:49:52.669206+2:00
== "2013-06-13T04:49:52Z"
 
4:50 AM
Not sure if it uses all the best features of R3, but seems to work well enough...
 
@rgchris The whole idea of "test suites" keeps coming up with Rebol, and as with many things, there doesn't seem to be a standard. It would be easier to design tests if there were an expression of what correct behavior was that was part and parcel of it.
My first Rebol experience was that Rebol did not have an enumerated type, and I had some bug trying to set up a Qtask installation, and I had to learn Rebol to find out why
 
I prefer to pad using math ... as it's faster
but it only works with numerics
 
@HostileFork I know some here are familiar with Form-Date, should work the same as R2. Otherwise, is supposed to be similar to strftime.
 
It was because they'd not done it with Windows, and for reasons I don't remember, I was on a Windows machine. And line feeds were different, so they had a switch statement and it was trying to go to the next step in some process. And STEP was a word or string of some kind that was not proceeding because it was "foo^M" instead of "foo".
 
@GrahamChiu Noted.
 
4:55 AM
So as Rebol was supposed to be extensible I said "well you need to have a restricted set of possibilities, and the language must enforce it". I was kind of pleased with Enumerated Type for Rebol 2
 
Bumped @brian-tiffin's pad-precise to %x.
 
@rgchris we're going to setup a headless altme client and take the web-public feeds and reformat as RSS
and also bring in the announce group into here
 
Yes, I saw @earl's query...
 
"Although I typically prefer catching these things at compile-time instead of run-time, I’m pretty pleased with how it works. "
Again, seems not the sort of thing that Rebol would be capable of
 
Now waiting for Gregg to get my bot's altme id right !
 
4:57 AM
I should go get sleep
 
@rgchris There is test code in it you'll find it under comment / context But the thing is, I don't know what use it is to ask people to hammer on a system that doesn't have built in tests. I had no clue what I was doing, but having talked about regression tests a couple times today it seems the beginning of testing is to build testing in on top of existing challenges, not batter RebolBot with guesses...
@Sgeo Glad you are continuing to take an interest. Sleep well.
 
@HostileFork I would prefer that we not batter RebolBot with guesses :) I was just demonstrating usage...
 
@rgchris so form-date comes with docs? ( I presumed that was what you were doing! )
 
Well, I am just continuing an earlier Skype thread with @DocKimbel here in the room, about the importance and need for tests to be part and parcel of the module.
 
5:00 AM
You had a challenge you knew the correct response for, and you posted it in the room, as I read and wondered what form-date did
So I'd say, that, the right place to start is to have a list of inputs and outputs you know are correct. That helps people know what you're doing, so they can intuit what a good test would be. It also helps you test against regressions.
 
Interesting .. didn't know QM was 6 years old
 
Think I started mid-2006.
 
So you guys watch videos on the Internet, quick poll. Do you like it better when they take questions from the audience and you hear the voices of the people with the questions, or if a moderator comes up after the presenter speaks and picks and chooses the questions?
TED talks do the latter
 
Q are written up and given to MC to ask
some people have fairly bad spoken english
And if the speaker can't speak english natively .. get someone else to do the talk!
 
I'm not as worried about the speakers. A speaker is a speaker, they have their personality. Subtitle it.
 
5:07 AM
@HostileFork I was .. kidding!
 
I think I did a good job of salvaging Doc's Red talk. That took lots... of... time. Unnecessary time. I won't do it again if I'm onsite to make sure it shouldn't take that time for a dozen talks
AND I faced backlash for doing it!
This cannot be how we go forward. We record it, cut it properly.
 
@HostileFork by one person .. forget it .. move on
 
And it is property of the community, not some random consulting org or person who made a conference website. This is actually core to my talk.
From two people, and these people had enough influence to pressure Doc, to pressure me to react with their URLs etc.
I don't want any of this pressure. I want this crew to grow up.
 
two people who were biologically so similar as to count as one
 
We publish the videos, I don't spend any more time or money than I need to, to capture them properly. And when they're published they are properly licensed; Creative Commons, and we deploy them at http://recode.rebol.net/2013
 
5:12 AM
Fork - but copyright rights should be respected. The other party claimed, that you took their video, improved on it, but linked it to your links, which represent your point of view on certain rebol directions ....
 
Does youtube or vimeo take 60 min videos?
 
That site is not governed by any single person, it's more wikipedia like. So if it has a failure mode, the failure mode is the failure of a community, not an individual
I have an account that allows long videos, you have to meet a few basic (but not that hard to meet) criteria
 
@pekr Pekr, I was here .. Fork asked Doc what to do with it, and complied
Read the transcripts
 
just record it on any camera, decently. I suggest even two cameras (one for presentation, one for presenter), with decent sound ... then we can cut it into whatever format ...
@GrahamChiu - I don't want to be part of any political nonsense, not in small Rebol/Red community.
 
@pekr Well in this area I know you know what you're talking about... so you know you cannot record with any camera with no light. Quality of sensor is nothing on YouTube, the cheapest camera is good enough usually IF the light is good.
 
5:15 AM
@pekr then you shouldn't have chimed in
 
@pekr I waited for Doc's word and complied. The point of contention was only that I had put (before the YouTube cut they impose before "see more") two links; one to the red homepage the other to this room. The request was I link to the esperconsultancy website. I said "If Doc says, I will". He said, I did.
The thing is, that I'm asking we not have a repeat here. I don't want anyone but the speaker to own the content.
And I'm ASKING (but not requiring, besides the whole neurotoxin if you don't agree part) that we come to a nice community consensus that lets the URL that is the public face of the conference not be controlled by some ONE person by fiat.
 
@GrahamChiu - why not? I have info from the other side (those two guys). Different point of view. For the next time, the solution is simple - all those things need to be settled first, so no such nonsense pop-ups next time. Video was not Doc's, so I am not sure how his word should matter here ...
 
@pekr Sorry, but when some speaks, the speaker holds copyright
 
@pekr Well you are speaking from a very photography aspect... you think the photographer (good or bad) owns the picture. This is neither entirely true or false. It's a perspective.
 
@HostileFork - I know some stuff about light and cameras. Ppl most often fail exactly in organisational aspects, not thinking ahead. Things tend to be rushed during the day of conference, and then you find out simple stuff blocking you, like missing some cable, cable not being long, "eh, last time it worked" syndrome, etc.
 
5:20 AM
Which is why for conferences I attend.. the speakers control the distribution of any videos taken
It's a performance .. like music etc
 
@pekr I'm looking ahead on this, I'll get there early, but I need people to help. I see the idea of having some nice speaker footage to intercut in the video edits as a really nice thing, it's more engaging that way. But I'm not going to kill myself over it. As you've perhaps read, I'm asking more that people don't interrupt the speaker and that if slide decks need be corrected ahead of time, it be done ahead of time instead by an inaudible murmur
 
@GrahamChiu - OK, as an organiser, and if you are a gues, I can as well tell you - ok, bring your own camera ;-) As I said, those things should be cleared-up ahead! Even with photoshoots. We are just starting, mostly with models we know, yet in one case, human words were not enough and model claimed some other rights later. Next time, some written agreement is needed, or adhering to conference rules - e.g. the condition to license videos as creative commons
 
@pekr Point taken: In fuzzy areas, things must be made explicit. I'd just like us to explicitly say that the material belongs to the speakers first, the community second, and the person who recorded it third.
 
@earl Amongst the many, here's one that works with just RSP (and Form-Date): Make Feed. (intended as a guide, not a finished script)
Hm, convert 'Form Date' to R3 and don't even get a star :(
 
There was no artistry or skill in the audio I had to clean up. It was incompetence; apparently with some mitigating circumstance. And I don't mind incompetence. I have a saying though, which is "What is the difference between incompetence and malice?" I decided an answer to that. accountability. Without accountability, incompetence=malice. You probably won't find a way to talk me out of that verdict, though I will listen for a while to see. But sometimes I'm just right.
I don't mind fixing it.
I mind the reaction.
 
5:27 AM
@HostileFork - I know how time consuming it might be. It just happened three days ago - we were aproached by talented breakdance guys in our region, doing some competition. We provided them our studio, noticing them, we have NO video lights, just strobes, having some modeling lights. They were supposed to bring in guy, who is experienced in video.
Oh well, the guy brought his Nikon, then claimed he has only 1 hour time, then claimed having no free time to cut the video in next 3 weeks, which made it pointless, then asked us not to teach him his stuff, as he studies professional photography for 3 years. After few tries, he gave up.
So with my colleague we did our best, 98% of material was useless, but we adapted - dark scenes used to our advantage, so 2-3 hours shoot, next day 6 hours of making the advert. Done in two days, my first video :-)
2zone.cz/reklamy/bez_cu_crew-burn_the_shoes.wmv
 
@pekr Well I know what you're talking about, remember, I have some high end equipment here too... and yes, it's hard to say whether the "talent" exceeds the "production". It's fussy.
@pekr Sure, it happens when a serious crew shows up, sets the staging the lights in the days before, pays a makeup artist, the "talent" shows and is told everything to do, the result is amazing...
 
here's streamed version, but sluggish over the connection:
 
Then the so-called "talent" later claims ownership of the affair, when they were imminently replaceable.
I understand arguments from people who care about copyright and are confused because they live in scarcity environments about that debate. I find it banal, but, at least I understand it.
 
it still has amateurish aspects, but for the first video advert, I feel comfortable about it, guys are local, but were at Talent competition here in Czech Republic
 
Doc's talk didn't fit this at all, and I invested work in taking the zero talent recording and fixing it.
 
5:33 AM
I personaly did not find any problem with you fixing the video, as I know, how MUCH work it can be. I actually just heard some arguments, and took no side to agree with. As I said - move on ...
 
Well I'm willing to let it all be bygones, and really the result turned out to be no big deal
It was just changing a link from Doc's red page to an "esperconsultancy" link. He said that was okay.
I chose the links based on my values, but I wasn't even there. Who knows. It is true, the more I hear, that Kaj and co are people making big personal sacrifices for these projects, and they kind of want every attribution they can get.
@RebolBot
print "Without Kaj I might not exist, at least not in this timeline, y'know"
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> print {Without Kaj I might not exist, at least not in this timeline, y'know}
Without Kaj I might not exist, at least not in this timeline, y'know
 
The only thing I did was say "I won't do anything you say until I hear from Doc" and politically Doc said "Do what they say" and I said "if you say so, then so I shall"
If he told me to take the video down I would, but if they said that I wouldn't. I guess it's just about one's perception of the percent ownership in a work of art. A hard issue, and one that has invoked many lawsuits and years of battle for certain people.
 
@RebolBot do do reb4.me/r3/make-feed
 
I'd rather Rebol not get into that kind of war. It makes no sense.
 
5:37 AM
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> do reb4.me/r3/make-feed
<?xml version='1.0' encoding='UTF-8'?>
<feed xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom'
      xml:base='http://www.example.com/'
      xml:lang='en-us'>

<title>Feed Name</title>
<id>http://www.example.com/</id>
<link href='http://www.example.com/' />
<link rel='self' href='http://www.example.com/our.feed' />
<updated>2013-06-13T05:37:19Z</updated>
<subtitle>Describes this Feed</subtitle>

<entry>
    <title>Journal Entry title....</title>
 
example dot com is a redirect? :-/ I thought it was supposed to be an example. I want it to be meta; "this is what the internet is, here is what a DOT COM is" etc.
The wikipedia page for ICANN encoded in Arecibo ASCII. O, example dot com, you pain me
 
Feel free to improve on my example! I just rehacked my old Emit-RSS a little.
 
@rgchris Not your problem, their problem. I have been wondering about ICANN for a long time. After being bitten by redirects to ORG.COM I find it curious such things are allowed to go on.
I've called up the phone support lines for anonymizing server farms that originate and allow phishing from their domain, and gotten in philosophical discussions with them about why they don't care about the harmful message I got. And I debate whether their indifference or logic is a good reason to say that there is a reason they shouldn't care, vs. going and launching some form of attack on their facility.
 
@GrahamChiu Export to JSON seems to work for me...
 
But it is, in a way, a caveat emptor argument ; common carriers say the same ; I guess it's hard to say they're wrong. It's evolution, perhaps.
"Don't shoot the messenger" would be a more common way of saying it.
 
5:45 AM
@Adrian Just not seeing that option
 
"I put my hands on my head,
and my weapons down
the day I moved
to messenger town..."
 
click on the name of the board at the top left - you get a menu with an export option
 
@Adrian Cool... I was clicking on the right
Maybe that will satisfy @HostileFork
 
quite a few options I hadn't seen before, there
 
Ok, I'll ask this way—I'd appreciate it if someone could pin my 'Form Date' request as it'd be useful to have it tested by anyone else that uses it (if such people exist).
Thks.
 
5:50 AM
@rgchris Well to address my point, is there a test suite, even one you use personally? Can we see that?
I think testing it for a thing like this should mean "please help add to the test suite"
 
@HostileFork What do you suggest? I don't know of one.
 
@onetom was demonstrating one the other day here
 
@rgchris Well I know there are some competing test suite standards; the only one I have dealt with was the one from Peter Wood for Red (where is he lately? Is he coming to the conference, or going to watch live via Google Hangout?) but I know there's a test suite in Rebol itself that @earl gets me to run but I haven't actually gotten into the details of it.
 
@HostileFork he said he would be travelling to the conference in a lucid dream state
 
He made me run it on the Haiku build so I know it passed most all of it
@GrahamChiu I've wondered if that's how I should get there. The mechanics of travel are seeming daunting, and I reeeeally don't want to cross the border with all my worldly possessions in my car. Gotta shop around for air conditioned and not totally insecure storage for my stuff.
 
5:56 AM
@HostileFork Drive to the border (or Philadelphia!), secure your stuff and take the train...
If I had the space, I'd offer to park your stuff here...
 
I tested my nice new fanless power inverter with my air mattress the other day. This power inverter is better than the one I got for free from a friend, that people smashed my car window to take... that's all they took. They also riffled through the glove compartment.
 
I suspect the issue is that lucid dreams states exist in alternate universes so you will miss everyone else travelling the same way .. floo powder works better
 
You know, I sort of decorate my dashboard with broken glass now. And I keep my glove compartment open. The glass is all over still because I want them to know that I know people like them exist... and that I'll never leave anything of value in my car, or even of no value (that power inverter was nothing, < $10)
@rgchris Thanks for the offer...
 
Geez, any decent EE would have rigged up an auto targetting taser for anyone breaking in!
 
@GrahamChiu You think I didn't consider it? I had a whole security concept and it wouldn't have drawn much power, in fact, the door opening engages the door light; a very simple modification would notice when the doorlight came on
While criminals could theoretically smash your window and then crawl through the window, I don't think this is their current M.O.
 
6:02 AM
And if you had an electric car .. huge battery banks to draw from!
 
@HostileFork More sentiment than offer, sadly. Not really in a neighbourhood where you can just leave stuff.
 
I had a design for a little WiFi thing you could graft into the overhead light, if you have said light triggered to come on when the door is open
Couple of technical problems. Garage is concrete, one reason why no one can hear the alarms
And underground, you'd need some kind of repeater or line because wireless just isn't going to get to my cell phone
 
Well, the batman had his bat mobile protected .. I saw it on the big screen!
 
Well, that's Batman. But Batman pisses off ordinary people like me, he never really seems to consider consequences.
 
He's not called the dark knight for naught
 
6:09 AM
But no, after that yes... I did become all vigilante. I actually really like my car. That was annoying. And life is already annoying. And this is Texas; heavily property-rights based. I could put some kind of murderous lasers in my car.
No Texas court would convict me if my car killed someone who invaded it due to a security based laser system
But, well, one thing led to another and Rebol got open sourced
 
What about one those Tesla Coils activating should anyone approach ?
 
I got distracted and the "install wifi detector laser signal powered by the door being opened" engineering project never happened. Also, I'm always thinking... like, what if they're the Dukes of Hazzard and they break your window and DON'T open the door
 
My car has side intrusion bars
 
So much for trading uponst the "door opens, light comes on" existing system for your laser deployment.
And I'm absent minded and drink a lot, I might give someone my keys...and the phone battery is dead so I can't disable the lasers... and then, well, a Texas court might convict me if it wasn't someone shattering glass and touching precious mechanical property
Anyway, there's been lots of breakins in my garage but none into my car since I leave the glove compartment open and have my dashboard decorated with the broken glass from before
 
that's why a system to disable and not kill is preferred
 
6:14 AM
Trying to send a message. "I hate you. And oh, I think about the last time someone broke into my car. If you break in, a loud alarm will beep as this car freaks out. Maybe no one will hear it. But as you can tell, I don't leave anything in it. I didn't have anything in it BEFORE either, but now you can see... with the open glove compartment, and the dash I decorated with the broken glass..."
 
how about a temperature sensor to detect a sudden change? That would cover the door opening and window being broken?
 
And it would also cover sudden changes in temperature.
 
I've had my car broken into once too .. and it was parked in my drive way at home
nothing taken .. just annoying to have the window broken
 
Well we've had apartments broken into, 3 in this year so far. That's worse. Anyway, I need to update my crypto, I've been lazy
Certainly before I put all this crap in the car
Well this misses the point of the Trello. @moliad, thanks for checking in. @DocKimbel you have been added to your talk!
 
@GrahamChiu I have got my simulate redirection for Call thing working, though unfinished. yay!
Now I need to learn about R3 error handling. How do I make one stop a script?
 
6:30 AM
'do it.
 
AH
 
errors have to be armed
 
I think I've figured out my TRY-ELSE function for R3:
try-else: func [
	"Tries to DO a block, returns its value or DOes the fallback block."
	'block [block!] fallback [block!] /local reason
][
	either error? set/any 'reason try :block bind :fallback 'reason [:reason]
]
try-else [something][do something else with 'reason]
 
@rgchris Looks like you're sort of attacking a system level thing. The hyphen bothers me, is /else an important refinement in general?
 
6:46 AM
Didn't notice that R3 TRY has an /exception refinement.
Oh well—guess try-else is redundant :)
'err sucks as the word the error is assigned to though.
@RebolBot do try/except [1 / 0][probe err]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-value.html
>> try/except [1 / 0] [probe err]
*** ERROR
** Script error: err has no value
** Where: try
** Near: try/except [1 / 0] [probe err]
 
Never mind, I guess I'd used 'err previously :)
Is the error assigned to a word in the 'code block?
@RebolBot do try/except [read foo://bar] func [error][body-of error]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> try/except [read foo://bar] func [error] [probe body-of error]
[
    code: 507
    type: access
    id: no-scheme
    arg1: foo
    arg2: none
    arg3: none
    near: none
    where: none
]
== [
    code: 507
    type: access
    id: no-scheme
    arg1: foo
    arg2: none
    arg3: none
    near: none
    where: none
]
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> try/except [read foo://bar] func [error] [body-of error]
== [
    code: 507
    type: access
    id: no-scheme
    arg1: foo
    arg2: none
    arg3: none
    near: none
    where: none
]
 
Good stuff. Could recreate error messages, except that in this case 'no-scheme is not bound to an error message.
@RebolBot do try/except [no-value] func [reason][get reason/id]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> try/except [1 / 0] func [reason] [get reason/id]
== "attempt to divide by zero"
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-not-defined.html
>> try/except [read foo://bar] func [reason] [get reason/id]
*** ERROR
** Script error: no-scheme word is not bound to a context
** Where: get -apply- try
** Near: get reason/id
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> try/except ["two" + "two"] func [reason] [get reason/id]
== ["cannot use" :arg1 "on" :arg2 "value"]
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> try/except [no-value] func [reason] [get reason/id]
== [:arg1 "has no value"]
 
7:02 AM
@RebolBot present
 
@GrahamChiu rgchris HostileFork GrahamChiu Brett Adrian pekr Sgeo earl Respectech ingo onetom pierre
 
@onetom, didn't you have a testing framework for Rebol, or was that someone else?
 
@GrahamChiu I have got R3 Call redirection working (interactive but simulated). It leverages R2 because I couldn't replace that part with R3, someone else may know better.
I've uploaded it to github.com/codebybrett/r3-scripts/blob/master/… for those that want to give it test.
Probably the networking could be written better but hey it's my first networking in R3 - yay!
Hopefully it will be made redundant when R3's Call gets worked on.
Please excuse the uglyness :-)
Oh. Windows only.
 
7:20 AM
@Brett will have a look ..
 
8:05 AM
@Brett have you heard of funct ?
Dunno if this work work ...
@RebolBot source funct
 
funct: make function! [[
    "Defines a function with all set-words as locals."
    spec [block!] {Help string (opt) followed by arg words (and opt type and string)}
    body [block!] "The body block of the function"
    /with "Define or use a persistent object (self)"
    object [object! block! map!] "The object or spec"
    /extern words [block!] "These words are not local"
][
    unless find spec: copy/deep spec /local [append spec [
            /local
        ]]
    body: copy/deep body
    append spec collect-words/deep/set/ignore body either with [
 
 
2 hours later…
10:22 AM
@liumengjiang I see you've answered a Rebol question on SO before.
 
10:56 AM
@GrahamChiu quick updates - thanks. I'll pull those back to the EC2 box and cross my fingers.
 
@GrahamChiu Have now. I should mention my script was converted from an older R2 script. It probably needs rewriting but I assume it will be obsoleted.
 
@Brett well, funct creates a context for you so you don't need to use that context construct
 
@GrahamChiu I didn't cross my fingers properly Script error: cannot access orders-cache in path lib/orders-cache
 
@johnk bleh!
it's a block I use within the main loop
did I forget to export it or something?
 
First couple of references are for lib/orders-cache then the rest just refer to orders-cache
 
11:11 AM
0
A: Rebol 3 functions MODIFIED? and EXISTS? don't work on URL type

earlMostly, support for those functions is not yet implemented for many URL schemes. All three mentioned functions use QUERY as the underlying action to obtain the information needed. So it's a matter of the implementation for a particular URL scheme also properly implementing full QUERY support.

 
@johnk still working on reading about modules :(
 
2
Q: Rebol 3 functions MODIFIED? and EXISTS? don't work on URL type

kris_rgDo any of the REBOL 3 gurus here know why the modified?, exists? and size? functions fail on R3 when targeting a URL? These functions work fine on local files. I am very familiar with R2, but R3 behavior seems strange at times. I am using stock code compiled from the Dec 12, 2012 open source re...

 
@rebolbot source exists?
 
exists?: make function! [[
    {Returns the type of a file or URL if it exists, otherwise none.}
    target [file! url!]
][
    select attempt [query target] 'type
]]
 
@GrahamChiu I just remove lib/ from any reference to orders-cache or cache-size and that seems to fix it
By fixed, I mean she doesn't die immediately. Unfortunately she appears to have been lobotomised :-/
 
11:26 AM
@johnk oh dear ...
 
 
2 hours later…
1:10 PM
@GrahamChiu Thanks, though I don't see the point for this case. It returns a function, whereas my code returns the object.
 
 
1 hour later…
2:35 PM
I haven't been able to get anyone from my group to take the Mac Pro and commit to doing our PPC Rebol builds. I'll see if I can get anything for it, and if not, donate it to someplace that is teaching like... mouse skills or something. If we continue to think it's important to make those builds, maybe someone can just get an old PPC powerbook. (I used to have one of the first 17" ones, and sold it for like $150 a few years ago.)
 
3:12 PM
Hello, everyone!
Over the last days, I have tried to read systematically through this chat, but... No. Impossible...
I'll just check the starred posts, see if I missed any major event.

"Watercooler", that's what it is, right?
 
@pierre Watercooler, right.
 
But... which "water" is it supposed to cool, then?
The water cooling down our brain?
My brain is air-cooled! And I have an air-cooled motorbike, also.
 
@rgchris Did a few quick tests of form-date, works lovely. Very good to have "%c" and "%s".
 
3:39 PM
@rgchris CC BY-SA is a bit impractical (for me), though. Maybe you could consider Apache-licensing form-date?
 
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