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12:01 AM
@earl @BrianH, I'm for stronger naming, personally. When you think about how a module might move between on-disk, in-memory, distributed, representations, a current serialized embodiment of a module is not something that you should give so much weight to.
 
And if I'm not sure that M is private, I'd probably need to do import/no-lib? (/no-user as well?)
 
@earl Something like that. We still need high-level API code to wrap that kind of thing. Only the semantic model is really set, most of that was an inevitable consequence of Rebol's binding model. Carl was pretty clear about the behavior of import, but we can write other code that does more interesting tricks.
@earl yup. Without options, import is designed to be called from scripts (or internally by Needs). You usually need options when calling from modules, or doing selective import.
 
@Adrian I'm fine with stronger naming, but I also don't like to repeat myself in simple cases. When a file-backed representation is the canonical source, I'd be happy to not have to repeat parts of the filename as module name (and in consequence, keep those in sync if I care about this invariant). But as I mentioned above, that's a minor quibble.
 
@Adrian I am all for modules having names once they're loaded. It makes it much easier to know that they're loaded and not load them again. However, for the initial import we might want to be a bit more flexible.
 
@BrianH Do we still have type: mixing as an abbreviation for type: 'module options: [private]?
 
12:06 AM
@earl "When a file-backed representation is the canonical source" - who decides this?
 
@Adrian Authors, packagers, distributors.
 
you might think so now, but when some dev takes over at a later date and starts moving it around to places other than a file (but with the intent to maintain the same identity) what do you do?
You need a clearly spelled out mapping from file name to module name.
 
@Adrian it's that dev's (or any related tool's) obligation to maintain the invariant.
 
@earl no, Carl nixed that in alpha 108 when he revamped the header model. There is an internal function sys/mixin?, but the official name for this kind of thing is now "private module" and we don't call them mixins anymore.
 
@Adrian It's of course obvious, that being lax on this might make some accidental uses less convenient.
 
12:10 AM
posted on April 06, 2013 by adrians

[Comment] Me too - this just seems the logical approach. Can you remind me, though, how words referencing 'secured' (by external entity which asks for credentials and is not the deployer of the application) resource can be protected from being overwritten by those imported from private modules? Is the security concept totally orthogonal to this kind of modularity change?

 
Like leaving out the module name because you consider the file the canonical source. Then having this file versioned and published on Github. Without the combination of the original filename being preserved somehow in the URL of the repository browser and a smart module loader that also extracts a module name from URLs, you now lose the convenience of automatically being able to load this file via the repository browser.
 
@Adrian with standard model applications and named modules the initial import happens at the beginning of the application. That makes the whole module setup done in one call to import at the beginning of the script. These modules that are initially in files should have names once they're loaded though, because we won't otherwise be able to know what the module is supposed to be.
 
@RebolBot version
 
@GrahamChiu 0.0.32 7-Apr-2013
 
Ok, back to using prot-http for tryrebol
 
12:31 AM
@RebolBot do help
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> help
Use HELP or ? to see built-in info:

    help insert
    ? insert

To search within the system, use quotes:

    ? "insert"

To browse online web documents:

    help/doc insert

To view words and values of a context or object:

    ? lib    - the runtime library
    ? self   - your user context
    ? system - the system object
    ? system/options - special settings

To see all words of a specific datatype:

    ? native!
    ? function!
 
*sigh* Still a crashing bug left, somewhere around IMPORT ...
 
12:49 AM
posted on April 06, 2013 by BrianH

[Comment] Precedence isn't really overwriting. If a private module takes precedence over lib, that means that the word your script sees is derived from the private module rather than from the runtime library. For "regular" modules (regular = non-isolated when it comes to import), the exports of all private modules you ask for are all imported into an object that is like a private runtime libra

 
1:07 AM
posted on April 06, 2013 by BrianH

[Comment] If you want to do privileged code in something like Rebol, the only real way to do this is with a sandbox. You make a safe subset of Rebol in a context, then bind the relatively untrusted code to that context before you run it, and don't give it any access to stuff you don't want to give it access to. Barring security holes, they shouldn't be able to break out of the sandbox without r

posted on April 06, 2013 by abolka

[Comment] Verified that the fix for #1865 also fixes this issue.

 
2:04 AM
posted on April 06, 2013 by BrianHawley

For module Needs imports, give private module exports a higher priority than runtime library (lib) imports. Doesn't affect scripts, which use strict in-order precedence already. See http://issue.cc/r3/1998 for details.

posted on April 06, 2013 by abolka

[Bug] The example code crashes R3. Reproduced using r3-master (fc51038, rebolsource.net builds from 2013-Feb-26) on Linux-x86 and Win32-x86 (via Wine). Attached is a GDB backtrace.

posted on April 06, 2013 by BrianH

[Comment] Pull request here: https://github.com/rebol/r3/pull/114

 
@RebolBot do/red print system/version
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> print system/version
0.3.2, 6-Apr-2013/1:10:01+2:00
 
2:20 AM
@RebolBot save Ren "REadable Notation" github.com/humanistic/REN/blob/master/readme.md
 
@GrahamChiu added key: Ren
 
the character in the icon is not someone's rear, but a stylised form for the Chinese word for person
 
@GrahamChiu Do you write/read fluent Chinese?
 
@HostileFork neither
Jerry was discussing this on Altme I think
Of course, you might consider the symbol a fork :)
 
posted on April 06, 2013 by abolka

[Comment] Reduced the example code to reproduce the problem. This is another facet of #1865, unfortunately not resolved by the original fix for #1865.

 
2:46 AM
posted on April 06, 2013 by BrianH

[Comment] Note that this problem doesn't affect script imports, because the shared isolated context that scripts run in is a really weird thing. For a given script A, which followed a set of previously run scripts A-, the Needs header or IMPORT function will act like this: - It resolves imports in order, one module at a time. - Regular module import affects lib in order the way you'd expect. -

posted on April 06, 2013 by abolka

[Comment] In the core-tests suite.

 
@earl when are we going to get rebolsource/r3 master builds on rebolsource.net?
 
@BrianH Working on it.
 
3:01 AM
posted on April 06, 2013 by earl

Ensure that the internal helper function Expand_Frame properly terminates the frame's word and value series, even when not copying from the original frame. The /extend handling of RESOLVE is currently the only user of non-copying Expand_Frame. Without proper termination, the code in RESOLVE makes invalid memory accesses at (or past) the frame's tail, causing crashes. This fixes CureCode iss

 
@earl let me know. I have a lot more trouble testing builds since the CMake stuff you helped me with is a little out of sync with the mainline. The sooner you can get the CMake stuff published on rebolsource the better.
As it is, I haven't been able to test your fixes for some issues. As you remember from last time.
 
posted on April 06, 2013 by abolka

[Comment] Fix submitted: https://github.com/rebol/r3/pull/115

posted on April 06, 2013 by BrianH

[Comment] Any bug in RESOLVE/extend/only is at least high priority.

 
@RebolBot help
 
I respond to these commands:
delete [ silent ] "in reply to a bot message will delete if in time"
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help "this help (/? and /h)"
keys "returns known keys (/k)"
remove key "removes key (authorized user) (/rm)"
save my details url! [ timezone [time!]] "saves your details with url +/- timezone"
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show [all ][ recent ] links by user "shows links posted in messages by user"
 
@BrianH Will do. If you want binaries for current rebolsource/r3 right away, just let me know. They should already be up (but are not linked to).
@BrianH And I'll help you cleaning up the CMake-based build again, so that testing should be easier. But not now :) Got to get some sleep.
Binaries for current rebolsource/r3 master:
 
3:14 AM
@earl and I have to clean up and go out to have some fun :)
 
posted on April 06, 2013 by fork

[Bug] I noticed that there is a "native port" inside of the TCP scheme as an "actor". actor: make native! [[port!]] It does not respond in a nice way to probing. It says "Access error: invalid port object (invalid field values). It does the same thing for type inquiries. It would be nice if type? and probe did something that wasn't an error, but rather a nice friendly "internal!" kind of a

 
3:38 AM
@earl Okay, fair enough about the missing get. But why does probe print return print is missing its value argument but probe foo/scheme/actor gives the more menacing ** invalid port object (invalid field values)? probe foo/scheme/actor foo doesn't fare much better...
 
@HostileFork Because actors are very special natives, so the former message would be misleading.
 
Graham wrote "Next we see the scheme object based on the Rebol TCP scheme, followed by an actor which is currently a port! (it can also be a block holding actors such as read, write, etc.)" Probed it to see what kind of port it was and I got that message. Okay I see it's not a port. Am I to assume that it is legal to put a normal port there, but this is just a peculiarity of it being a native, and there's not really anything I can do with it?
 
No, that sentence is wrong.
The actor's not a port!, it's a native!. You can't put a normal port! there.
 
posted on April 06, 2013 by abolka

[Comment] The ACTOR is a native!, which is a function type. So what you are doing in your example code is calling this actor function. Compare the following: >> foo: func [] [print "bar" 42] >> probe foo "bar" 42 == 42 >> type? foo == integer! This invokes FOO as part of gathering the arguments for PROBE or TYPE?. If you don't want to call FOO, you have to use a get-word: >> type? :foo == f

 
Well, this uncovered a crash:
>> system/schemes/tcp/actor
Segmentation fault (core dumped)
Calling an actor directly may cause crashes. Thanks for the inspiration :)
 
3:48 AM
@earl Well, you never know these things until you try. :-)
 
4:02 AM
posted on April 06, 2013 by abolka

[Bug] Calling the TCP actor directly crashes R3. Inspired by Fork's experiments in #2017. Only tested on Linux-x86 at the moment. Did not try other actors so far.

 
>> system/schemes/tcp/actor
** Access error: invalid port object (invalid field values)
** Where: actor
** Near: system/schemes/tcp/actor
@earl ah.. I was waiting for you to review that document :)
 
 
3 hours later…
7:01 AM
There is a "wrote" event and a "read" event. Given the double meanings and pronunciation of "read", that seems like a bad idea. Is there some other word? (Cracks out thesaurus...)
"reddit" is probably trademarked or something. :-P
Even "write-done" and "read-done" seem better to me than "wrote" and "read"
How about "seen"?
Hm, or is it a request in that case and not an acknowledgment. May be looking at this wrong at lines of code next to each other.
 
7:19 AM
you got it right ... wrote = finished a write, and read = finished a read
the only people who need to know this are those writing async handlers
@KK. long time no see. Holi over?
 
KK.
@HostileFork @GrahamChiu Hello.
@GrahamChiu Yes, it is a 1-2 day festival.
 
@KK Hey, hi! How've you been?
 
KK.
@HostileFork I have been fine.
@GrahamChiu Congrats for the bot. it is he's working really well.
 
@KK. it's a she, and it's slave labour :)
 
KK.
@HostileFork has the moving ended? I hope it ended fine.
@GrahamChiu my bad :-)
 
7:22 AM
@KK. The first half ended... one apartment down, now one to go...
 
KK.
@HostileFork Good.
Have you guys heard about Novartis?
 
@KK. We've had a few improvements in her behaviour. There's also a re-write going on to modularise the bot and allow custom commands
@KK. I received a honorarium from Novartis once :)
 
KK.
@GrahamChiu Great to know!
I have not been reboling at all.
 
@KK. Hmm. What punishment can we impose on you?
 
KK.
@GrahamChiu There was this long case in Indian courts against their patent for Glivec/Gleevac, and they have lost it. Lots of controversy.
@GrahamChiu Whatever you say.
 
7:24 AM
@KK. Well, over priced cancer drug
that is also used in the treatment of scleroderma
 
@KK Punishment of catching up by forced to read our long chats! Speaking of which, if you look at this segment from earlier today, you can read up on some of what I've been learning. Something I'd avoided as a dark and scary part of Rebol 3... the port!.
 
If Indian companies didn't reverse engineer these drugs, there's no way asia and africa could afford treatment. Is it right to steal bread when you can't afford to pay for it to survive?
 
KK.
I think surviving in any matter is right, just like breaking any law in pursuit of self defense is legal (at least in India)
I read a bit about the issue, and then wrote a blog post on it.
 
anyway, it's complicated because India has a space program ...s o they're not paupers
 
KK.
It is kind of an issue, people are dying and we are investing in space and defense etc.
But some say it is necessary.
 
7:33 AM
@KK. Well, a lot of countries do that ... North Korea etc
Countries don't do drug research because it's so expensive .. so only giant pharma can afford it, and they need to recover their costs as well as pay their investors.
Bill & Melinda Gates foundation are though .. in Malaria and tuberculosis I think
 
KK.
@GrahamChiu From an Indian perspective, there are 2 satellite-based GPS systems right now, one of US and other of Russia. In case of war or war-like situation, we need to make sure that we access GPS data. So we are paying for both the American and Russian versions so that on issues with the US or a US-ally, we can use the Russian system and vice versa. India is developing our own GPS system, so is our neighbour China.
 
Just make friends with Pakistan!
 
KK.
@GrahamChiu Giant pharma kind of overdoes it, with over-reporting of expenses and then overpricing to death
@GrahamChiu On a people to people level, we are kind of friends. You will have problems differentiating north Indian and Pakistani people in most cases. But religion is a strong political force in South Asia (India, Pak, Nepal, Bhutan, Sri Lanka, Myanmar etc.)
 
I am an atheist and think it's crazy that people can argue over unproveable beliefs
Not everyone can be correct ...
 
KK.
I am not an atheist, but I think that different religions are the path to the same end result, so fighting over it is useless.
 
7:44 AM
I think I just saw a news item about some riots in Pakistan where the religious leaders are demanding death to the atheists!
 
KK.
I think it is about the martyr Bhagat Singh situation.
 
KK.
Bhagat Singh was a born in a Sikh family, then became an atheist, and was a revolutionary when undivided India was under British rule. He was hanged in Lahore (now in Pak) on March 23, 1931. Some Pakistani people were holding a quiet protest to get a public place named after him, and were attacked by religious bigots. The British called him a terrorist
You will love to read why I am an atheist by him.
@GrahamChiu I did not expect this of Mauritius and Maldives.
These are supposed to be countries dependent on tourism, and I don't know why I thought these countries should have an open outlook. Let us hope that the people there are good, and it is because of the politicians.
 
People do irrational things when their minds are infected with viral memes
 
posted on April 07, 2013 by rebolek

[Comment] To get informations about port, you have to QUERY it. >> QUERY port

 
KK.
7:59 AM
@GrahamChiu I gotta leave. ttyl.
 
I'm working on the Redis scheme again and I'm wondering what to do about asynchronous operations. Redis server always responds with status message and client is supposed to read the status message and return it to user. Does it even make sense to be asynchronous in this case? How will the status messages be proceeded? Am I missing something?
 
Most of the time you use these ports in a synchronous fashion.
It only makes sense to use async ports when the ports are blocking
eg. smtp, ftp, http
so an async handler that I can add to ftp allows me to update a gui on the progress of a file transfer
 
I'd like to add series! functions now, so I should add them as normal synchronous operations and should care about async right now?
 
the other time i think you'd use an async scheme is when you're also processing other events such as in a GUI.
@rebolek I would write everything as sync, and leave hooks to allow others to add async if needed as Gab did.
 
@GrahamChiu What kind of hooks?
 
8:09 AM
eg. in the http write, the write actor checks to see if there is an async handler installed, and uses it if so. Otherwise do a sync-op
 
This? either any-function? :port/awake ...
 
Yes, that's it. Thanks.
 
BTW, I fixed a few spelling mistakes on the REN project readme.md for you :)
 
You're welcome :) I guess there were lots of them :)
 
8:14 AM
nah .. just a few
if there were too many I wouldn't have done it! :)
 
Hehe :) I'll try more proof-reading next time :)
 
 
3 hours later…
10:53 AM
posted on April 07, 2013 by fork

[Wish] I got a bit confused looking at some event code on port schemes. Here is the list of events I later found: * lookup * connect * wrote * read * close * error * done I wouldn't have thought anything of it if wrote hadn't been in there. But because it was, I thought about how it seemed more literate than WRITE being the event name. It made me want to see more consistency. I know that

 
11:11 AM
posted on April 07, 2013 by rgchris

[Comment] As the events are in process, would it be more appropriate to use present tense? #(151)#(160)starting/initiating, connecting, writing, reading, closing, failing, finishing/completing

 
How does the goal of REN differ from Rebol? Is it a subset or a rebranding? Rebol is similarly an exchange format that happens to be conducive to exchanging instructions. One of my goals with the Railroad project (EBNF source here) is to provide a roadmap for parsing Rebol notation in other languages to better realise the exchange potential.
 
12:05 PM
Rebranding exercise
Read = data packet arrived not arriving
they are all past tense
 
12:28 PM
@GrahamChiu where's the current version of your scheme docs?
 
1:28 PM
@GrahamChiu Past tense for the subport, present tense for the scheme.
@GrahamChiu Is it a good idea to rebrand when there's an effort to make the current brand work?
There's also the on-* naming scheme that is used elsewhere: on-read, on-connect, on-write, etc...
 
@rgchris If REN really aims at being parse-able from other languages, it will have to be a (formally specifiable) subset.
 
2:04 PM
Obviously there are issues in that Rebol is not formally specified. Why isn't Rebol parse-able in other languages—yes, there are some complex rules and some unknown (unless you can decode the R3 lexer), but it's not infinitely complex. We just haven't got all the way around it...
 
2:34 PM
@rgchris It's not infinitely complex, but its syntax may not be formally specifiable in any useful way (which is true for many other languages as well).
For a data exchange format, however, you typically want a formal specification.
So REN could be to Rebol what JSON is to JavaScript: a lightweight, formally specified data exchange format, which syntactically is a subset of the full language it is inspired by.
 
@earl Again, surely this is something that needs to be addressed in Rebol: if there are parts that are not formally specifiable, shouldn't they be removed?
 
2:49 PM
@rgchris I'm not so sure about that, no. You'd probably lose a lot of convenience. Which is OK for a data exchange format, but not so much for the full programming language. When in doubt, the full programming language syntax may err in favour of user convenience (which translates to implementation inconvenience). On the other hand, a data exchange format should err in favour of strictness, easy verifiability and being unambiguous.
 
I'm not sure I agree—the premise behind Rebol is that it specifies a messaging language (aka a data exchange format, if you will) that can be interpreted as a language.
If the language goes beyond that message format, what's the point?
 
Those are quite different concerns, requiring different tradeoffs.
If you ever tried programming with a syntax wrapped in XML, you'll have a strong intuition why that premise taken to it's full and logical conclusion is not very desirable for a programming language.
 
But I don't—I program in a message format that is designed for use as a programming language.
 
It's very difficult to reconcile designing for wide-spread use as a data exchange format and designing a convenient programming language.
 
What is the point of REN if you can't use it as a programming language also (dialects, etc)?
 
2:56 PM
That'd be precisely the point I see of REN: you can still do that, but it's optimised/designed towards a different primary use case. Data exchange, not programming.
 
It's halfway between JSON and Rebol in a way that won't appeal to Rebollers as it's not fully compatible, and JSONers because it's not as ubiquitous.
Rebol is designed for data exchange!
 
@rgchris It only claims to be.
 
Then we need to fix it.
 
Then we'll probably have to let go of a lot of convenience and maybe datatypes as well.
 
So be it.
Which datatypes? What convenience?
 
3:00 PM
Everything that makes the lexer or parser require more than 1-item of lookahead.
That probably entails strict white-space based token separation. No more if a [b], but rather if a [ b ].
 
Doesn't that apply to REN also?
 
@rgchris Yes. But that depends on what tradeoffs REN is going to make.
 
I'd suggest flexible whitespace is something that can be specified.
 
REN could conceivably just leave out datatypes which create complications. If you just start with string, decimal, map, block, true, false, none (which is JSON) and add an integer, a symbol (word) and a basic (RFC3339) date/time type, you are already much more powerful than JSON. Maybe add url and email as well, if you can easily fit it into a formal specification.
 
But something that isn't Rebol and is less than Rebol.
 
3:12 PM
@rgchris A subset, yes.
 
It's not a subset though.
 
Hm?
 
Or at least it can be LOADed (almost) but has a different meaning.
I personally hope it could be LOADed as I want dates with 'T' to be recognised and emails that can be used as handles. There are presumably reserved words [none true false on off yes no map! object!].
 
As an aside: for data exchange between heterogeneous systems not under your control you shouldn't LOAD/SAVE it anyway, but use specialised functions instead (just as you shouldn't eval JSON in general). Otherwise you don't get any of the validation/strictness benefits (LOAD) and too easily run in danger of generating malformed data (SAVE).
Of course, it should be theoretically LOADable, for convenience in quick throw-away scripts or homogeneous, fully-controlled systems.
 
LOAD/SAVE shouldn't evaluate though.
@earl So you're saying that it shouldn't matter that REN data conforms to the REN specification?
Any system that specifies Rebol as an exchange format (say, the CureCode API), wouldn't you expect to get LOAD conformant data?
 
3:25 PM
@rgchris I don't get that, in CureCode. (Need to pre-process CC data for R3). Which is precisely the problem.
@rgchris Yes, it should not matter, as REN should be a subset of Rebol.
And If REN goes with (a subset of) RFC3339 for dates, I think that's a thing that should be "backported" to Rebol (R3) as well.
 
@earl So if I sent a message—{foo 4oo ##}—how would it be handled?
 
@rgchris Sorry, what do you mean?
 
@earl I see that as an issue of lack of formal specification of Rebol—something that would seem a higher priority.
 
@rgchris Even if you can formally specify Rebol in a usable way, that won't help much with spreading it as data exchange notation. One reason I see for JSON's success, is that it is rather minimal and easy to implement. I strongly doubt that you'll ever get something "easy to implement" for the full Rebol syntax.
 
@rgchris why not? The header isn't necessary in R3 for data files.
 
3:32 PM
@BrianH I was thinking as an analogue to JS eval()
@earl That's data that doesn't conform to REN—how would a REN parser deal with it? What if REN were to expand the available datatypes, how would older parsers handle the new types?
 
@rgchris "How would a REN parser deal with it" -- with a validation error.
@rgchris "How would older parsers handle the new types?" -- Just as how you always do with data formats: not at all, or via a well-designed backwards compatibility behaviour (such as new types looking like an existing type to older parsers), or via versioning, etc.
 
@earl I was really impressed with the JSON RFC. The original JSON spec had some weaknesses, but the RFC cleverly used some constraints to deal with all of the weaknesses, making it a binary format. Constraints are good for a data transfer and storage format, and restricted semantics leads to wider adoption.
 
@earl This applies to Rebol as well.
@earl Perhaps, but it also helped that it was close to JS notation. REN is a departure from that, in if you're going to go that far, why not just make the Rebol exchange format work.
 
@rgchris I don't see why REN wouldn't be close to Rebol notation.
 
@rgchris Rebol has the header to mark versions and script types. For REN, will you be requiring a header? Keep in mind that you can't set a compatibility level without one. JSON can't be changed because it doesn't have versioning - even the RFC was just a clarification.
 
3:42 PM
@BrianH But it breaks in the case @earl provided: CureCode API in R3—how should that have been done?
 
Still, LOAD is just a function, and mezz at that. It wouldn't be hard to make a simpler function for REN that calls many of the same natives that LOAD does. But the reference model for the data interchange format should be standalone, and not require Rebol.
 
Essentially making it a fork of the Rebol message format.
 
@rgchris I didn't see the example, or how it breaks.
 
@rgchris A subset.
 
@earl Almost.
 
3:45 PM
@rgchris No, truly.
 
@earl When dates and emails are updated.
 
@rgchris well yes, because we would need non-Rebol implementations in order to make it usable. And it would need strict versioning, and to be evolved separately from Rebol when Rebol changes in the future.
 
@earl And it can't truly be a subset until Rebol is specified, warts and all.
 
Adding new datatypes to Rebol isn't that big of a deal as long as it doesn't break existing syntax. Adding new datatypes to a data interchange format is a huge deal, so much so that it is almost never done at all.'
 
Especially until REN is specified at all.
 
3:49 PM
@rgchris also standardized, which means that we would be constrained in how we could change it going forward. There are real disadvantages to standardizing a programming language, but not standardizing a data interchange format is a really bad idea.
 
@rgchris Not really, you'd only have to verify that all of REN is valid Rebol (at one particular point in time); no need to fully specify Rebol for that.
 
@earl any reference implementation would need to not include Rebol.
Unless what you are creating is a Rebol data format, not a data interchange format.
 
@BrianH Yes, but that is orthogonal to verifying that REN is a subset of Rebol.
 
@BrianH @earl — do you have an example where R3 chokes on the CureCode API?
 
@earl given that Rebol is evolving, it is not necessarily as much of an advantage that REN be a Rebol subset. It would be nice for our purposes, but as a data interchange format it would be best to decouple them.
@rgchris is this the Latin-1 thing?
 
3:53 PM
@rgchris You need to transcode from Latin-1 to UTF-8 first.
 
@earl Gabriele has a full set of UTF-8 data model functions for R2, with transcoding. If I were to write CC in R2, I would use Gabriele's code to handle the data.
Just because it's in R2 doesn't mean it can't work like a proper modern API :)
 
@BrianH I'm handling the transcoding in R3, and it's no big issue. Just a point in case where R3 can't LOAD R2 data right away.
 
@BrianH In data exchange terms, R2's SAVE is broken as it doesn't save valid Rebol data as defined by R3.
But we knew that, and should be a footnote to R2 distribution.
 
@rgchris Or R3's load is broken, as it doesn't load valid Rebol data as defined by R2.
Only the truth is, that neither R2 nor R3 attempt to define a long-term stable and standardised data interchange format.
 
@earl That should be a goal of R3 though. Or the combined efforts of Rebol development and Red.
 
4:00 PM
Remember, R2's character type isn't really Latin-1, it's 8-bit elements that are interpreted with the system's local codepage, which coincidentally is Latin-1 variants on most people's systems. So R2 is even more broken than we thought, because it doesn't specify the character set of its string data.
 
@rgchris But unless you want an impractical programming language, this needs to be separated into a dedicated data interchange subset.
Otherwise you severely impede R3 and Red freedom to adapt their syntax going forward.
 
@rgchris it can be hard to remember this, but LOAD is just a function. As long as REN is a semantic subset of Rebol/Red's data model, we can use a function to load it and another function to store it. Syntactic compatibility is a nice-to-have, not a need-to-have.
 
@earl I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing if we can get to a settled state, or solve it some other way.
REN has the same problem—once you define it, it's frozen.
 
@rgchris a settled programming language is a dead programming language.
 
@rgchris REN can have a compatibility story separate from Rebol.
 
4:05 PM
@rgchris REN is a data interchange format. They're supposed to be frozen.
 
@BrianH How often does Rebol's syntax change?
2
 
@rgchris If we would have settled with R2, we'd be left with a data exchange format upon which we'd have to retrofit Unicode and where changing email! to include handle!s would never be a possibility.
 
@rgchris well, pretty often going forward. It's open source now, we have a bunch of syntax bug tickets were working on.
@earl not handle!. If we change the name of email! it should be to something that makes no reference whatsoever to Twitter-specific jargon. Plus, handle! is taken.
 
@BrianH That only affects how data is loaded, not what the data looks like.
 
@BrianH Not changing the name, but extending the syntax to include @handles as valid.
 
4:08 PM
Except in the case of changing dates and emails.
 
I think it's safe to assume that R3's syntax will change, once someone gets around to working on the syntax bugs.
 
@earl right, I'm in favor of that. It's just the datatype name handle! that I object to for this type, for the same reasons I don't like it being called email! but much more so.
 
@BrianH Should have written "handles" instead of "handle!" above.
 
@rgchris "what data looks like" is the syntax. We have standing syntax bugs.
 
@earl but these are things that would have to be settled anyway.
 
4:12 PM
@earl don't worry, just cracking down. I've seen that proposal to change the name of email! referenced elsewhere, and we need to make sure that if it happens we don't use the name handle! for it, and stop any suggestions of that name when they happen.
 
@BrianH to reiterate, I'm on board with it being within the email! type.
 
@BrianH I'd as well prefer extending email! syntax and be done with it.
 
@BrianH Not my best choice of words, but you could possibly have inferred the meaning.
 
@rgchris Yes, but settling them independent of the constraints of a well-defined data exchange format is much easier.
 
@earl I agree, I'd just prefer that well-defined data exchange format should be the Rebol Message Format.
 
4:15 PM
No worries, I know that we don't have to do the tough arguing when you're not talking to @HostileFork :)
 
@rgchris Sure. Some people now started an initiative to specify that Rebol Message Format under the name of REN.
 
@rgchris I think that you are missing the "exchange" part. But having a data exchange format that coincidentally has the same syntax as a subset of the Rebol format, that would be nice :)
 
@earl REN is only a subset of Rebol.
 
@rgchris Yes, otherwise this becomes infeasible.
 
And I don't agree! Going round in circles now :)
 
4:18 PM
@rgchris Write me an implementation of full Rebol syntax in Python, then :)
 
@rgchris btw, if the REN project ends up with any suggestions for tweaks to Rebol syntax for some datatypes, please make tickets for them.
 
@rgchris Would you prefer to have no implementations of full Rebol syntax in other languages (the status quo), thereby having to resort to e.g. JSON for data exchange? Or would you prefer having a nice and well-specified subset of Rebol, which is widely available and which you can therefore use for data exchange instead of JSON?
 
@earl I don't know Python, but I do intend to pick another language and try.
 
@earl you are being too generous. Write it in C and Javascript without requiring any reference to the R3 code.
Or assembler.
 
@BrianH Now you are being too generous :) Write me an FPGA-based decoder.
 
4:20 PM
@earl now you're talking!
 
But really, Python was just meant as a placeholder for $ANY_NON_REBOL_LANGUAGE. Even in high-level languages with great parsing tools, writing a full implementation is nigh impossible.
 
@rgchris be careful with the subset thing. The main reason that JSON is so popular is that it doesn't define too many datatypes. For each datatype you add, you have one more datatype that languages other than Rebol need to have support for in order to implement the data format. Add more types and you lose more potential endpoints for the interchange.
 
For wide-spread adoption, a well-specified subset is imperative.
 
Not just well-specified, small. If the other programming languages don't have that concept, they don't have something to translate the data to.
 
I already have the scope settled, it's the details.
But I have an idea on those too.
 
4:26 PM
And yes, that includes reducing the number of available types. As I mentioned above, if you add integer, symbol (word), and date/time over JSON, you already have something very useful but which is still feasible to implement and adopt.
 
Speaking of getting implementations out quickly, for any language that supports native language extensions, I would think Red would be a good way to get these done.
 
For that matter, Rebol itself didn't have a full JSON semantic model until R3, and then just barely. JSON objects correspond to R3 maps, but only if null is translated to #[unset!]. Which is unfortunate because the JSON subset doesn't include Javascript's type that means unset!, unknown.
 
Btw, should there be an effort to make REN be a subset of Red as well?
 
@BrianH And only if map keys are translated to binary ...
 
@earl yup.
 
4:30 PM
@BrianH (And you probably meant "undefined" not "unknown" :)
 
@earl Neither—I'd prefer full (and well-defined) Rebol syntax in other languages.
 
@rgchris I'd prefer that as well, but I consider that extremely unrealistic.
 
@rgchris that won't work, because the "well-defined" part constrains Rebol's evolution.
Well-known we can do, but static is not so great.
 
And, again, it would also severely hamper Rebol's syntactic evolution. So it'd still need to be decoupled into a separate language, which only starts out as fully matching a particular implementation of Rebol at a particular point in time.
 
@BrianH I think that is and has been a problem for Rebol.
The language is only able to evolve as noone is using it.
 
4:35 PM
@rgchris Ruby is able to evolve and people use it. And they use it for that reason.
Remember, LOAD is just a function. I wrote it. We can write more functions that support different syntax. As long as we have corresponding semantics, the syntax can differ.
 
Current Rebol developers are willing to adapt to a moving target.
@BrianH Ruby isn't homoiconic though—doesn't have the same constraints in design.
 
Well-defined syntax only helps with alternative implementations, and with making implementations more robust. It doesn't help much with syntactic evolution (only in that it can allow better estimates of the impact of potential changes).
 
@rgchris current developers in general are willing to adapt to a moving target - look at all the Ruby, Python and Javascript developers doing just that. It's only legacy developers that are unwilling to adapt. And Rebol has an advantage here because LOAD is just a function. We can keep backwards-compatible versions of LOAD around, make LOADs for completely different syntax. Rebol is only homoiconic in its semantics.
 
We are very constrained in syntactic extensibility, unfortunately, but that doesn't mean we should preclude any syntactic evolution at all.
And we'll have to do it just as everyone else does, if we want to do it responsibly.
No compatibility guarantees for alphas; major releases for non-backwards-compatible changes, minor releases for backwards compatible strict superset changes.
 
@earl LOAD is just a function. Rebol's existing syntax is constrained in syntactic extensibility because of all of the datatypes it has to support already, but we can switch entire syntaxes altogether whenever we want. Let's see Ruby do that :)
 
4:45 PM
Have to step out (need some Vit D anyway).
 
The main reason that the R3 project is constrained in its syntax fixes is that most of the available printable ASCII characters are taken, so any change could cause conflicts with other syntax. So every change requires rebalancing. If we had fewer datatypes with literal syntax that would not be as much of a problem. We don't want to go the Perl 6 route and require Unicode operators, so we're constrained.
 
@BrianH Yes, but that's only one side of the coin (practicability concerns left aside :).
The other side is people (or even machines) writing code.
 
The more datatypes with different literal syntax we add, the harder it is to write a parser. This is not that much of a problem for a programming language, but it's a big problem for a data interchange format. That is why constraining the subset that REN implements would be to its benefit.
Remember, the tiny syntax spec of JSON is its greatest feature. We need something simple (but not that simple) if we would hope to compete with that.
 
Exactly. The larger the subset, the bigger the impediment to wide-spread adoption. That's a balancing act.
@BrianH Something completely different: I faintly remember that you have discovered some bugs in your REWORD rewrite? Is there anything to this recollection or was that just a fever dream?
 
@earl I found some bugs and fixed them all before I submitted the pull request. Even the design flaws are fixed now. However, with the new design it is now subject to issue.cc/r3/539 like the other mezzanine control functions that call code, like COLLECT and FIND-ALL.
 
5:01 PM
@BrianH Ok, thanks for clearing that up. Do you happen to have some test cases ready for the reworked version in core-tests compatible form?
 
@earl not ready. I was going to make them when I got the time, which isn't right now because of job stuff. Also, I want to edit the SO article to match the new syntax and capabilities, though that was waiting until the change got accepted. But tests are the next step, because I want a full set of regression tests before I start converting it to native code.
 
5:25 PM
what's up!
I've been away for one week, what's the state of Rebol??
 
 
1 hour later…
6:40 PM
posted on April 07, 2013 by BrianH

[Comment] Are they? I thought that the 'wrote and 'read events triggered after some data has been read or written. The overall process is ongoing, but the event triggers after a part of the process happens. Are the other events triggered at the beginning of a step? Maybe they aren't all past tense.

 
@graph Heya! Perhaps the usual state of denial :-) but there's a couple new things going on. I'd like to send you something over gmail, thought I had your address but can't find it now, can you send it (again?)
 
@graph we've been trying to fix some stuff, and arguing through other stuff. Things progress, but not as fast at the moment because some people are taking a moment to work on other things. But rebolsource/r3 exists, so that's good.
 
@HostileFork cool I sent you another email
you always have interseting stuff
@BrianH nice
 
I'm one of the ones who has been taking a break, due to work stuff. But Ladislav and I have been discussing problems in the url! type in a civil manner, so if you're a fan of flame wars you are going to be disappointed :)
 
I'm here for the drama
 
6:51 PM
We had a nice misunderstanding about the module system yesterday, you should be able to enjoy that :)
 
7:25 PM
 
@BrianH "Rebol is only homoiconic in its semantics"—not sure what you mean by this...
(not looking for an essay, just a clarification)
 
@rgchris I am likely misunderstanding what "homoiconic" means. What I was trying to say is that while Rebol's data syntax is also Rebol's code syntax, the syntax itself doesn't actually matter that much (aside from being good in itself). What matters is the in-memory data model, the semantics, what was generated by the function that parsed the syntax. We can change syntaxes just by using a different function, we aren't tied to one syntax.
For that matter, I am looking forward to us adding more syntaxes. I would like a nice binary encoding that covers a greater amount of the internal semantics. If it isn't human-readable, that doesn't matter.
 
Why then is it bad to tie Rebol to one specification of the syntax when you can evolve with an alternate syntax?
do/edge if you will...
 
@rgchris Not that bad, just not very practical.
 
@earl Perhaps not as practical, but reliable.
 
7:37 PM
Sure, a well-specified Rebol syntax would still be a very nice thing to have.
 
@rgchris there has to be a default syntax. No matter how many syntax loaders we have, we can only have one lib/load.
 
There are bugs and kinks in the format now, but how much significant change is there going to be to the syntax between now and the R3 Holy Grail?
 
@rgchris don't know yet. We've been working on semantic bugs.
 
@rgchris Quite a bit, probably.
 
Aside from URL encoding issues, Email (handle), Date ('T'), what other changes are coming to the literal syntax?
 
7:41 PM
i think that default syntax of rich datatypes should conform RFCs
 
@rgchris possible changes to word and issue character sets, maybe Unicode whitespace if we can manage it, and maybe some rebalancing of precedences. Plus, all the stuff that we haven't thought of yet because we haven't really looked thoroughly.
 
@rgchris Hard to say, I fear. Depends a bit on how clean you want the lexer become. (If any cleanup is desired at all).
 
Ren deffinition will. If Rebol differs, it should be fixed.
 
@rebolek I don't disagree with this in principle.
 
@rebolek be inspired by, but not necessarily completely conform. Strict supersets preferably.
 
7:42 PM
@rebolek As I don't use AltME to discuss stuff, could you add me on Skype (metaeducation) or Gchat? (hostilefork)...?
 
@rebolek for one thing, most of the RFCs are defined in octets rather than codepoints.
 
@rgchris The general issue is that we have two ways forward with R3 syntax: (1) try to formally specify current behaviour after the fact; i.e. fit the formal specification to the current implementation. Or (2) try to formally specify an idealised Rebol syntax and adapt the implementation to match this formal specification.
 
I'm getting this sinking feeling in my stomach...
 
@earl (3) don't try to formally specify the syntax, let it evolve. Not the best choice, but we need to consider it.
 
@BrianH Right, the status quo.
 
7:49 PM
@earl I'm somewhere in between. Go a little further with R3 and then try and nail something down.
 
With (2), R3 literal syntax will change a lot, esp in corner cases.
Of course, that's only an educated guess, but one I'm quite confident in.
 
@earl plus documentation. I want a documented syntax to help me write syntax extensions for IDEs and analysis tools, but that might not need a formal spec.
 
@earl How so?
 
@rgchris Current syntax is defined by a ~1700 lines of hand-written lexer code in C.
 
@rgchris even attempting (2) will make us aware of a lot of syntax bugs.
 
7:51 PM
Have a look at rebol-syntax for what you get if you even only partly try to describe all (unintended) side-effects and corner cases.
 
BBL.
 
With (2: impl-follows-spec), you should aim to eliminate all those irregularities when they don't add any value, or you gain nothing over (1: spec-follows-impl).
 
@earl I have, and Red's (albeit incomplete) lexer.
 
Good start for Ren would be if we can provide BNF and regex parsers for each type to easify implementation. I'll try to add some examples.
 
@rebolek My BNF project is now a Git archive: github.com/rgchris/Rebol-Notation ([RR](rgchris.github.io/Rebol-Notation))
While a bit simplistic, it does cover every literal datatype.
 
7:55 PM
@rebolek Be aware that the devil lies not within the type tokens themselves, but in the interaction between types.
 
@earl It's community project so let's fix all problems before we release it.
 
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