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12:00 AM
@GrahamChiu We already rejected that in favor of the reverse operation.
 
@BrianH fair enough
 
@GrahamChiu ...which we haven't done yet. Still, I would prefer reverse over parse/reverse or parse/last just as a language design decision, so if we had to make the choice again today I'd make the same choice. The behavior of rules need to be designed around reverse behavior, so it's better to put in the rule than as a parse refinement.
 
occasionally I have just reversed the series and parsed it that way
 
Ditto here. Or copied a section, reversed it in a production, and recursively parsed it there.
(sorry, CS term) "production" = "paren" in Rebol parse dialect jargon.
 
So, we have things like copy/part which make it easy to start from the left, but difficult from the right ....
 
12:10 AM
Rebol in general is a bit directionally biased.
 
when really there is no reason that should be the case
 
>> copy/part tail "abc" -2
== "bc"
Did you mean in R2?
 
The main reason we write from left to right is to stop smudging the ink
 
That might have been the original reason, but now we just do it for backwards compatibility.
 
@BrianH I only use R2
 
12:13 AM
@GrahamChiu ah, that explains it. We only get to fix language design flaws in R3 and Red. With R2, we're mostly stuck with them.
 
12:23 AM
Is there any particular reason why @ can't be in the user parse rule?
 
@GrahamChiu ? Which user parse rule?
It should be possible to encode @ using hex syntax, but the current URL parser decodes those too early.
 
>> source sys/*parse-url
sys/*parse-url: make object! [
    digit: make bitset! #{000000000000FFC0}
    digits: [1 5 digit]
    alpha-num: make bitset! #{000000000000FFC07FFFFFE07FFFFFE0}
    scheme-char: make bitset! #{000000000016FFC07FFFFFE07FFFFFE0}
    path-char: make bitset! #{00000000AFFFFFF5FFFFFFF57FFFFFEA}
    user-char: make bitset! #{000000001F3EFFD47FFFFFE17FFFFFE8}
    pass-char: make bitset! [not bits #{006000008000000080}]
 
Not that URL parser, the native one.
 
in this one user-char: make bitset! #{000000001F3EFFD47FFFFFE17FFFFFE8}
>> append sys/*parse-url/user-char #"@"
== make bitset! #{000000001F3EFFD4FFFFFFE17FFFFFE8}

>> decode-url "ftp://someone@here.com:password@ftp.here.com"
== [scheme: 'ftp pass: "password" user: "someone@here.com" host: "ftp.here.com"]
Are there any downsides ?
 
The hex characters should stay encoded in the original source url! string, and should not be decoded until the URL is broken into parts. The current native url! syntax parser dehexes before the URL is broken into parts by sys/*parse-url.
 
12:34 AM
so, this is a temp workround
are there any downsides to adding @ ?
 
Yup. For one thing, that workaround leads to ambiguous syntax.
 
eg?
 
For another thing, What if the username contains a : or a /, or what if the password contains those characters?
 
@GrahamChiu :
>> append sys/*parse-url/user-char #"@"
== make bitset! #{000000001F3EFFD4FFFFFFE17FFFFFE8}
>> decode-url "ftp://a@b.com"
== [scheme: 'ftp host: "a@b.com"]  ;; Expected: [scheme: 'ftp user: "a" host: "b.com"]
 
>> decode-url "ftp://a@:@b.com"
== [scheme: 'ftp pass: "" user: "a@" host: "b.com"]
 
12:40 AM
@GrahamChiu you're trying to fix one tiny symptom of a much larger problem.
 
@BrianH How common is that compared with @ in a username?
I was reminded that patching the user rule was what people did in R2
 
There are a lot of common characters in usernames that we choke on, and even more in passwords. But it can also affect file paths.
 
I'm still not seeing how changing a private rule in decode-url affects other things
 
 
3 hours later…
3:28 AM
...and, encapping is quietly announced for Android in AltME ... while everyone's gone quiet here... :-/
 
Was it announced, or just advised that it was feasible ..
 
Well, I'm just saying, I know people love the AltME and all but... interesting things happening and I just don't see the real value of flipping between, we'd be better off if everyone could commit to a Dev channel here and a user channel here so there was enough traffic.
 
I saw @Ladislav mention this yesterday but thought I'd rather wait till it happened before mentioning it.
we need 20 more channels here before everyone comes across :)
 
The curecode tickets going by would be in the Dev Channel feed only, and starring in the Dev Channel would be like "Announce". The only reason I'm not encouraging the split is because we'd be cutting activity rate too thin.
 
chicken and egg ... people find all stuff in one channel too onerous
actually most of the activity here is not dev so it wouldn't matter too much to have a dev channel i suspect
 
3:40 AM
Using AltME re-confirms what I thought I remembered about AltME. It doesn't have the purported benefits. It has almost none. Across my machines it doesn't consistently keep track of notifications I've read or unread. I'm not told when someone addresses me in conversation. The search is awkward.
Can't edit messages for typos after posting, no permalinking, perspective of historical order of things is hard to keep when people really want to know about basically everything going on anyway and you can't cohere an "arrow of time"
 
I tried to reply to a message made a day ago ... very difficult
 
Maybe the web-public groups in AltME should be mirrored in some read-only groups here as well, but in real time. I would hope that people wouldn't find that any different than the AltME traffic being published on rebol.org
 
Yup: No way to indicate which message you are replying to, copying and pasting text out of the transcript confines you to one division at a time and does it badly, perspective of "who's online right now" does not reflect things as nicely as the avatar icon ordering and fade, no visual hint of who's talking with an avatar.
 
@rgchris, could you scrape them, do you think?
 
You'd have to set up an altme account and then have a bot which screens the incoming messages .. and then posts them here. No scraping needed
 
3:47 AM
No way to easily set the zoom level of the whole thing and see your text bigger or smaller, no mobile version, requires installation and sets up a barrier to new users.
 
is there a chat api here?
 
no
 
altme is pretty old now
 
but if you use the chat modification script, they do offer some kind of extension points to let you do some customization
 
@Adrian Don't encourage them to stick with the old! The last thing we need is a ghostly "AltME user" account posting in the channel with the user name as the first thing in the message and then every time you reply to them it loses the information...encourage them to realize that it's just time to move on.
 
3:49 AM
I remember in IOS messenger days ( father to altme chat ) I wrote a script that injected the mailing list into the chat .. and that upset people!
 
There's a different working model with the starring and especially, as @BrianH likes to point out, the strong arrow of accepting chat's ephemerality and realizing when something has stopped being a forgettable discussion that you might look up by "who said this in what date range" to check a fact...and it's time to make a StackOverflow Question or a CureCode/GitHubIssue/Wiki page.
 
I've done my part in trying to make people not see this chat as a negative thing. Beyond that, people are grown up enough to know what they want/need.
 
And as for private messaging anyone who needs to talk with anyone should get their messaging info that they use to talk to their non-Rebol friends and family. Or do people make their grandma install AltME? :-)
 
I think you can sort of see the main problem people have with the SO chat. The single room vs individual groups reasonably on topic. This is compounded by quite a lot of traffic as some new people drop in and ask questions. That's all good, but it can make a single chat seem to go by too quickly to be able to focus.
Too bad you can't cross link between rooms here. Tried it and it doesn't work.
@GrahamChiu What was the complaint? Too much traffic?
@HostileFork You have to admit that this is an extra step that you shouldn't have to do. Private chat should be something you can drop into at any time with anyone who happens to be there.
 
4:08 AM
@Adrian I think that people have mentioned this several times when they get here that it's hard to follow some many different things happening
I guess they don't want disposable chat that lasts a day ...
 
@GrahamChiu Actually, they do. If you click on an avatar you'll see the "start a new room with this person" as an option.
 
@Adrian Not private, all chat on SO is public.
 
sure
didn't mean that, but it makes for "disposable", quick chats
 
@GrahamChiu That's why we're supposed to use the tools of non-disposability... the stars list, an RSS feed of search terms you are interested in, like "Android", the at-mentions of your name...
And most importantly, the tool of making sure anything important is mined out and put somewhere productive.
 
Let's split off a dev channel and see what happens ...
 
4:17 AM
I'd like to see that too
 
since it's emphemeral it doesn't really matter where it is .. right?
 
I think the names should have a common prefix so someone searching for Rebol/Red would get them all and assume a relationship
 
@GrahamChiu Encouraging the ephemerality makes it not matter where it is. In fact, if StackOverflow shut down chat or decided they didn't like us, it shouldn't matter that much because we should have cultivated the habits where we can just pick up elsewhere and not lose knowledge.
Most popular programming language chats work this way on IRC already, and their better habits and putting chat in the right mindset has kept things thriving despite having drastically less functionality than AltME.
 
@Adrian - wouldn't your Rebol bot here have the same issue .. no proper sandboxing on the PC running the interpreter?
 
4:33 AM
I support a Rebol expression-evaluating bot, but not an AltME chat bot. StackOverflow policy on chatbots is "well...experimentation is cool and all, but if it annoys us we might turn it off".
7
Q: Are bots specifically allowed or prohibited in Stack Exchange chatrooms?

hippietrailI've been spending heaps of time in the travel chatroom recently, just like I once spent lots of time in the Wiktionary IRC channel. On the IRC channel we had a few bots that could automate things we often used to do, such as Google fights and retrieving definitions of words. I had a search aro...

 
@GrahamChiu Yeah, but that's not necessarily an insurmountable problem. Node-webkit could run in Sandboxie (a relatively lightweight sandbox), for example whose process could be killed by a watcher when it runs for more than a couple of seconds. That, along with the sandbox restrictions would limit the damage.
@HostileFork read that earlier when I was looking at the bots available.
@HostileFork I'd want to disable commands other than Rebol/Red evaluation.
 
Could use the header to tell, e.g. @RebolBot Rebol [] print "Hello" vs. @RebolBot Red/System [] print "Hello" vs @RebolBot Red [] print "Hello". Default to Rebol if no header as these are all Rebol family languages so deference to history. Or Doc might say "age before beauty". :-P
 
FWIW, the JS room has a chatbot
 
@SomeKittens Cool. Well @Adrian if this is something that interests you, I'd be in favor of it being here. It would be useful.
 
It'd be nice to have something at hand to do a quick eval.
 
4:43 AM
I kind of feel like it needs to have a bit of a delay on it to let you correct mistakes, but 2 minutes to wait for an eval seems a bit long.
 
Mistakes aren't that much of a problem
 
Definitely don't run it on a real machine, a little linuxweight linux VM or something with net access turned off and no access to local drives.
 
especially with the undo command
...you can't have the chat room with net access off
 
@SomeKittens that's the one I was thinking of.
 
@SomeKittens Erm, right. Access firewalled to everything but this.
 
4:46 AM
@HostileFork Sandboxie is more self-contained than a full VM.
 
You can control access to the bot
Just let room owners use (for quick examples) it and no one else
 
I would think you could do this simply by following the feed, and then posting a response to a RSS feed which the room is subscribed to.
No need for webkit or any private APIs
 
node-webkit would be there to allow Rebol limited access to the system.
@dt2's werebol (which runs on/with node-webkit)
@GrahamChiu I guess I'm not clear on how you're seeing things work.
 
@Adrian well, I'm not familiar with node.js etc. So, i would just have a t1 micro instance running which would scan the chat feed for commands, and when it sees something, it would just create an entry in a RSS feed. This chat subscribes to that feed and posts it here like other feeds.
Might be a bit of a lag though :(
 
So it would be all Rebol - yeah, why not?
could be laggy, true
 
4:55 AM
how often are the rss feeds here checked? And what is an acceptable polling time for a bot?
 
@GrahamChiu These feeds aren't checked fast enough to get a satisfactory eval rate. Delays seem to be about 2-3 min.
 
I presume that the bot would have no write/read access to the underlying OS to prevent damage, and you'd just need something to monitor it to kill it if it consumed too many resources
 
As for how fast you can refresh RSS, I notice they have about a 2 second search throttle (you can retry this in 2 seconds...)
 
@HostileFork Used to be 15min+
 
well, we could time the questions for each 15 mins :)
 
4:59 AM
Seems like a simple userscript bridge to notify Rebol and then proxy back is useful. It would be useful for other reasons. Hey, make it a dialect. :-)
When StackOverflow power users start to understand Rebol, then you're going to see some cool things getting made.
Which is what I've been trying to say all along, here.
 
testing 1 2 3
POST /chats/291/messages/new HTTP/1.1

Host: chat.stackoverflow.com

User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:19.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/19.0

Accept: application/json, text/javascript, */*; q=0.01

Accept-Language: en-US,en;q=0.5

Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate

Content-Type: application/x-www-form-urlencoded; charset=UTF-8

X-Requested-With: XMLHttpRequest

Referer: chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/291/rebol-and-red

Content-Length: 58

Cookie: __utma=140029553.867929268.1353528689.1361765834.1361839752.147; __utmz=140029553.1361839752.147.126.utmcsr=chat.stackoverflow.com|utmccn=
 
@SomeKittens oh I used something today that I often forget is in the language. So in addition to the semicolon style of comments, there is a comment word that takes a parameter. That parameter can be a block, or a string, or whatever. And what it does is as far as evaluation goes... is nothing. It just disappears. :-)
>> print rejoin ["Hello," comment [print 1 + 2] " Rebol, you are amazing."]
Hello, Rebol, you are amazing.
 
@GrahamChiu that was automated?
 
I just used wireshark to see what I posted
 
@HostileFork how delightfully zen
 
5:07 AM
@Adrian unless they renew the cookies and keys, doesn't look tricky
 
@SomeKittens Now bear in mind, it's there in a structural sense. So second ["Hello," comment [print 1 + 2] " Rebol, you are amazing."] will get you the word! comment. It's just that when the DO dialect is kicked in (as in rejoin which is "reduce and join") it chooses to just wipe it out completely.
 
It would be nice to know what all those cookies mean ...
 
Speaking of which, @BrianH ... any good reason why comment wasn't added to the parse project too? Would be easy enough, and it's in the DO dialect.
 
@GrahamChiu Someone could impersonate you now, no?
 
>> parse "ab" ["a" comment {Shouldn't parse support comment, too?} "b"]
** Script error: PARSE - invalid rule or usage of rule: comment
** Where: parse
** Near: parse "ab" ["a" comment "Shouldn't parse support comment, to...
 
5:10 AM
@Adrian that would give me some time off then :)
 
heh
 
@SomeKittens something you need to know, culturally about Rebol, is that people have a chip on their shoulder about Rebol's performance. I'm reading code where people are writing insert tail foo bar instead of append foo bar due to a micro-optimizing tweaking awareness that it will be slightly faster (it only is in R2, not R3). And certainly using a comment that leaves symbolic structure at runtime and has to be eval'd out is going to rub them the wrong way.
 
...that's programmers in general
 
But it's a great tool for temporarily knocking out portions of code, and with Red's compiled approach it shouldn't cost anything in many cases I'd imagine... so knowing about it is useful.
@SomeKittens Rule #1 of optimization: Don't do it. Rule #2 (experts only!): Don't do it... yet.
 
5:27 AM
^-- someone needs to star this old-but-important quote. But it's the Rebol room, so I expect I'll hear a defense of insert tail foo bar. :-P
Speaking of the WebOS sale from HP to LG, I wonder if Carl has a price on the sale of the rebol domains (rebol.org, rebol.com, rebol.net) and the trademarks and such. Like, is it just "no deal for any amount of money"? Or is there a price he'd just let it go?
 
does he own them? Or do the investors hope yet for some return
 
Mysterious opaque questions to which we do not know the answers.
 
I wonder who owns rebol.at ?
 
@GrahamChiu About every 15-20mins.
@HostileFork head insert tail foo bar to replace append in many cases!
 
Any Rebol 2 source assets are losing any of their remaining value by the day, expect them to go to zero soon, if not already. So it's going to just be the trademark and the websites.
Cargo cult programming is a style of computer programming that is characterized by the ritual inclusion of code or program structures that serve no real purpose. Cargo cult programming is typically symptomatic of a programmer not understanding either a bug he or she was attempting to solve or the apparent solution (compare shotgun debugging, voodoo programming). The term 'cargo cult programmer' may also apply when an unskilled or novice computer programmer (or one not experienced with the problem at hand) copies some program code from one place and pastes it into another place, with little ...
 
5:39 AM
@rgchris append is now native in R3
 
@GrahamChiu pave the cowpaths.
 
I'm just wondering what the investors would take for what's left. I have an unopened box of Starburst Sour Gummibursts...and while I do not care much for candy these days, I love these things. They are like crack. We could start the negotiations there...
...and they could be Dr. Evil and say "One Million Billion Dollars!" and I'm just wondering where a deal could be struck.
 
I believe the investors have some hopes from the open sourcing of rebol so I don't see them releasing the domains
maybe LG might purchase them ...
and there's a Japanese diet company expressing some interest
 
@GrahamChiu Meh. Well I guess we decide whether to create value or not for the name. The logo was a gift, I said so. I don't mind Carl benefitting but I guess I just wonder who these other people are. They don't talk much, or if they do it's in steganographic Japanese.
Hello there @emil, what's up?
 
@HostileFork the investors were likely family and friends in his community
 
5:57 AM
@GrahamChiu Have you ever seen the BioVisions visualization video from Harvard?
Hello again, @Nezam. Light tangential discussion at the moment, mostly about the fate of the Rebol trademark now that it's open source. WebOS was sold by HP to LG, and it's hard to know precisely what was sold given it's Apache 2.0 open source. :-/
 
hi @HostileFork
 
@emil Hello. I'm going to guess you've probably not heard of Rebol before. :-)
 
@HostileFork I think we had line drawings in my day !
 
I keep thinking of those drug commercials they used to show on TV, where it shows a little kid walking by himself by an urban fence and he's got a little balsa wood airplane or something. And it's all dark and some tall older man comes up to him and goes "hey kid, you like flying huh?" And the kid looks at him. And he says "I've got something that'll really make you fly..."
Then it cuts to a black screen saying "Talk to your children about drugs, before someone else does."
But then I think of an alternate version, where it instead cuts to the guy showing the kid his helicopter and going "ISN'T THIS AWESOME!!! Balsa wood is for suckas!"
 
@HostileFork: nope never, but I heard of forth and lisp :)
 
6:10 AM
So we're the second kind of "dealer" I'll hope. :-)
@emil Heard of, but not used?
@GrahamChiu It all looks like Ajax to me, no matter how you draw it.
@emil (No judgment if you haven't used Forth or Lisp, it's just that to explain Rebol one has to know where someone is coming from to know whether to talk about things they already know or things they don't...)
@earl While you're busy looking at parse source by inspection, can you keep an eye open for what it would take for any non-parse keyword which looks up to a function (as opposed to a block, which is treated in-place as a rule) to use the result of that function as if it were in the rule?
 
6:25 AM
@HostileFork I have written a little bit elisp but that is the only lisp dialect, otherwise I mostly have written Standard ML, Erlang and a little bit Haskell.
 
@earl So, for starters: foo: [some "a"] bar: func [] [[some "b"]] parse "aaaabb" [foo bar] would return true. That's just the gist of what I'm looking for. I want to know if it's logically impossible or if it can be done, and if it can be done I will be pleeeeeeased.
@emil Okay, so I won't bore you with the "there's more to life than JavaScript" sort of speech. You know that. :)
 
Ok, thanks :)
 
People who do not know that are not really, necessarily, ready to appreciate what's unique about Rebol from the other offering... they just need a study of programming paradigms to begin with... to hit the books a little, basically.
BUT given that you know that already, then it's better to go to some of the philosophy of what differentiates Rebol from Lisp (as opposed to explaining what a "code-as-data paradigm" is)
@emil Rebol has more "parts" in its box than Lisp does. For instance, Lisp forces you to always reduce your symbolic series concepts into parentheses. In Rebol, you have more. So length? [outer block elements (inner block elements)] is 4. There are different subtypes of series, so one which uses brackets is called a block! and one with parentheses is called a paren!.
And if you were to download yourself a nice Rebol interpreter (no install required) you would also see that length? fourth [outer block elements (inner block elements)] is 3.
This is the tip of an iceberg, but what it points out is that when you are treating your "code as data" and you are able to just kind of scan over it and be inventive with how the symbols are handled, you can do fairly powerful things. You can ascribe whatever meaning to the difference between what it means to have a bracket delimited series vs. a parenthesized series.
We call this "dialecting". And it's just a way of saying that although the language has a default execution dialect called DO that appears kind of conventional (e.g. it applies a parenthesized series of elements in an interpretation as "precedence"), that places no limits on how you or others might choose to apply that form.
@emil While I may have been a bit abstract there, does at least the "code" presented thus far "make sense"?
 
6:44 AM
@HostileFork no-one suggested comment at the time. Actually, there are a few new proposals that should go on the page, for future reference.
 
...and I have successfully hung AltME in an attempt to search on references to Fork to see people talking about me behind my back, but apparently I can only see so much, because I have to go to the settings panel and change something. But it didn't tell me what I needed to change. And then it hung, and is printing text on top of itself.
@BrianH comment seems pretty innocuous. Think there'd be any objection?
I'd use it. Sometimes you just want to disable some stuff.
 
@HostileFork all operations become keywords that can't be used for variables or rule names. So, more operations means fewer available names. But that's a general answer. In this case I don't see any objections.
 
my internet connection is dying, I am on the train :/
 
@HostileFork change the number of lines to search back in the settings
 
7:02 AM
Yes, the setting is the treshold of messages to display and to search. If you want to search, raise it to e.g. last 5000 messages. But then Altme is kind of slow and sluggish - it's storage mechanism and maybe even how UI lists are done, become sluggish. So after your search, put it back down to something like 500 latest messages ...
 
@emil Sorry to hear emil, do stop by, we've gotten a little shot in the arm lately because our pet language got open sourced after a long hiatus of... zero development. Like two years without a release or bugfix of a proprietary codebase. That's why all the activity right now, but we're eager to explain...
 
posted on February 26, 2013 by fork

[Wish] I was rediscovering the pleasantries of COMMENT in the DO dialect. I'd sort of forgotten about it, but then geeked out about how nifty it is in evaluative circumstances to have such a thing available. (Most languages don't have it, and I think it might be an undersold bonus. Rebol sometimes undersells nifty abilities like this). Anyway, it made me wonder if PARSE had adopted it as we

 
@BrianH See... give a little, get a little. I can be managed. :-/
@pekr So you're doing photography eh? I'm just learning, got a hand me down Nikon D-80 DSLR from a friend...it's beyond my abilities. Just getting started... taking pictures of weird crap in Austin and ducks or geese or whatever
 
@HostileFork ok, looks very interesting. I am reading the docs :) r3 works quite fine too
 
7:19 AM
@emil So you might have noticed the download size, and this is one of the things, it's small. But packs a punch that will start to freak you out more and more as time goes on. The RSS feed that mashes up the StackOverflow API calls for question answers along with questions tagged Rebol (an RSS service not from the API) is provided by a script written in Rebol...feeds into this room...source code is here
@emil Rebol is based on a sort of adaptation of our natural instinct for language, how we build structures in our heads by looking only at words separated by spaces. (S (NP Our brains) are (VP (ADVP naturally) build (NP sentence structures) (PP in (NP our mind , (PP without (S (VP relying (ADVP too) (ADVP strongly) (PP on (NP (NP parentheses) and (NP commas))))) .))))) So why should our languages be so UGLY?
 
0
A: rebol: How to create rule to parse braces?

Rebolbotto-parse: [entity Person { String name String lastName Address home Address business }] person-rule: [ thru "String " copy name to newline (append names name) thru newline | thru "Address " copy address to newline (append addresses address) thru newline | skip end ]...

 
One upvote from me for RebolBot. I suggest precisely two and saying in user description "Hi I'm a bot for evaluating Rebol, tell me if I'm annoying you", and link to the bot policy post on Meta. And no more upvotes or answers for said bot after 20 from any of us. And also, I propose RebolBot with a capital second B.
Linking to your user profile and saying "I'm the operator of this bot" is also very much considered transparent and good practice. Wikipedia bots are run under such standards.
Here's a RebolBot avatar...
 
@RebolBot length? {hi}
 
Not to be confused with @dt2 :-)
@emil We only just started the very concept! The account has to be linked with behavior and it can't even chat yet. Give us... a few hours. :-)
 
ok :)
 
7:33 AM
@emil But good Reboling. Do you notice the advantage of curly brace string delimiters? They are asymmetric. print {"It's cool," said {Fork}, "when you don't have to worry about escaping as long as you have matched pairs."} Hahaha.
Ok RebolBot, stop answering questions unless you get downvoted. That's it.
A funny remark like "Please don't upvote or downvote me, I only need enough points to chat. I live to evaluate expressions." will endear you to powers that be. I'll again say that linking to the operator profile is the best strategy.
And a link to the meta stackoverflow policy on bot policy will help any moderators who aren't aware of the somewhat-open-minded strategy on a "fake" account to realize that in certain, rare, circumstances it's okay.
 
1
A: cannot set proxy password in restricted corporate environment even programmatically

RebolbotNote that you can set the set-net function in Rebol2 USAGE: SET-NET settings DESCRIPTION: Network setup. All values after default are optional. Words OK for server names. SET-NET is a function value. ARGUMENTS: settings -- [email-addr default-server pop-server proxy-server...

 
the curly braces reminds a bit of tcl
 
@emil Like all languages, Rebol has borrowed... but it has also created and thought a lot. Even the decision on braces as the fundamental "block" character was designed because on many keyboards you can get them without hitting a shift key. Typing Rebol is generally pretty fast... but lots of decisions.
Just yesterday we were discussing why Rebol basically decided to throw away the comma. Because a comma and a period are hard to differentiate in written code. From a few feet away can you tell the difference between 1,00 and 1.00? Not really.
 
8:30 AM
Fork - I am as good photographer, as a designer. So yes, I like both disciplines, but am sane enough to recognise, that I can't actually compare to gurus at both disciplines. So what I am doing now, is setting-up a photo studio, which will be available for rent, as I can see so much talent around me, yet those ppl don't have quality equipment ....
 
@pekr Humility is the first step to excellence! I never said my logo was the best I just said "okay, let's see what else is out there". It had been up for years and only counter proposal was from RebolTutorial who used some flaming "rebol is on fire and about to burn up" effect, which I guess was fairly appropriate for the time. :-)
@pekr My friend gave me the camera for a steal, basically, it's hard to say I "paid" for it... but he wanted a Canon mkIII with a > $1k zoom lens that has constant speed... and thought I should have a decent camera. I have a 1.4f 50mm prime and a kit zoom lens, as well as the auxiliary aimable flash. It's more than enough for my capability.
@pekr I just take random photos when I have the camera with me and see something...
No controlled shots, I don't have a light kit.
Though the flash goes a fairly long way in uncontrolled environments, there's a lot you can do with it in dark night clubs as a bounce source with a 50mm prime... people who use cell phone cameras are like.... people who bring JavaScript to a programming competition. :-)
 
8:50 AM
@HostileFork excess of commas and parentheses is just line noise
 
@emil Well, it gets all the more complicated in so-called "metaprogramming". Some languages (not going to name names) think that in the service of uniformity, the answer should be to accept foo = [bar, baz, mumble,] in part because they think they're making matters better.
We here at Rebol(TM) Inc. (oh wait, we're the Apache 2.0 open source branch of Rebol? do we have a name, even?) think that's for suckas.
 
Fork: I have Canon 60D, 450D, and some nice glass. Nikon is nice camera too, and don't mind the lens. My friend having just point&shoot camera did more interesting photos than me ... so :-) I just take all that stuff as a learning process to grow myself ...
 
@pekr I went to the Los Angeles Film School (don't be impressed, if you can write a check you can be a student)... but in my time there, I learned more than anything that tech-obsessed people who don't understand anything about art or communication are just people with fancy gadgets. :-)
 
posted on February 26, 2013 by Sunanda

[Comment] Although there may be a philosophical / design issue to discuss here, please note that R3 follows the R2 model in most cases, eg: difference/skip [ 1 2] [1 3] 2 == [] The specific bug seems to emerge when the blocks contain unset words: difference/skip [x x 1 2] [1 3] 2 == [x x] That bug needs fixing even if the R2 reference implementation is later changed in some

 
Well everyone, I'm off. @pekr get your model to code in Rebol and log in, we'll see more traffic. @emil if you catch me at a non-3AM time I'll walk you through why Rebol is both sane and insane and worth messing with. Gotta sleep sometime, though. :-0
 
9:21 AM
@Pekr Hi
 
RebolBot: Hi bot :-)
 
@Pekr I am a RebolBot
I hope it is going to be this easy to use Rebol3 to post to this chat
 
9:47 AM
0
A: Is it possible to develop the ssh protocol in rebol?

user2110584Why not trying to use putty as an external interface for ssh ?

 
I hope it is going to be this easy to use Rebol3 to post to this chat
 
10:29 AM
posted on February 26, 2013 by Ladislav

[Comment] Well, I am OK having the ability to write: parse "ab" [ "a" ; No serious problem to use a comment "b" ]

 
 
2 hours later…
12:45 PM
@HostileFork How would functions taking arguments behave?
 
1:01 PM
Agents in Rebol, any implementations exist?
 
1:12 PM
posted on February 26, 2013 by Ladislav

[Comment] In the core-tests suite.

posted on February 26, 2013 by Ladislav

[Bug] TO BINARY! yields the same binary when called twice. That is unexpected and dangerous.

posted on February 26, 2013 by Ladislav

[Comment] In the core-tests suite.

 
1:30 PM
posted on February 26, 2013 by Ladislav

[Bug] The test below fails both in R2 as well as in R3, the question is whether it is OK.

posted on February 26, 2013 by Ladislav

[Comment] In the core-tests suite.

 
1:45 PM
@KK Mornin'...
Or evening. I don't have an India clock here. :-)
 
KK.
@HostileFork Good afternoon in that case. (Its actually evening, but you do not have an India clock :-) )
@HostileFork I can use a range for detecting occurances of some character using parse, how can I make the range from 1 to n
I mean, this is fine:
parse "aa" [1 3 "a"]
But is there a way for
parse "aa" [1 n "a"] ; where n can be anything
 
@KK. @KK. I was thinking I did not mention the comment to you before. In the DO dialect, it was chosen that if you say something like print rejoin ["Hello, " comment [1 + 2] "World!"] the DO dialect chooses to just... ignore it. :-)
@KK. Well the "lame" answer to your question is parse "aa" compose [1 (n) "a"] :-/ And I say lame because you get into one of these situations where since parens are meaningful in both the COMPOSE and the PARSE dialect they will fight if you have both...
So if your example were more complex, it gets ugly.
 
KK.
@HostileFork I smiled to the word "lame"
 
But even though it is lame it is still cool. :-)
The "real" answer, well, that gets heavy. And you are obviously someone who is going to be asking us for "real" answers sooner rather than later. :-)
 
KK.
@HostileFork Does this link work?
 
1:56 PM
@KK. Yup! Pretty blog! I installed WordPress years ago before I knew what PHP was... and then when I learned how it worked... I said "I do not want to touch this thing anymore". I'm still running ancient WordPress, but all the security bugs are related to letting people make commenting accounts or whatever, and I turned all that off. I'm just waiting to rewrite it in Rebol when I feel it's time. :-)
2
 
KK.
@HostileFork I am still working, and that too without proper knowledge of Rebol.
Hence the incomplete post and questions about parse.
Were you able to see the incomplete post?
I have not even started the 8 regexes :-)
 
@KK. So any dialect author faces the problem of literal examination of words vs. evaluation. I made the proposal that PARSE should know about COMMENT the way that DO does... and so you could say parse "ab" ["a" comment [print 1 + 2] "b"] and get true, instead of "what the heck is comment?" :-)
 
KK.
@HostileFork I am using blogger only, so it took only 5-10 mins. That too because I was being picky
 
@KK. parse "aa" [some "a"]
 
@KK. I saw the post... good start! And the fun is tearing down the people who think they are programming and making those ugly machines... they are using a Brainf**k equivalent and think they are "learning programming"...when every second they are using and evaluating that that they are poisoning their mind...
 
KK.
2:02 PM
@PeterWAWood Sorry, I should have said between n and m instead of between 1 and k
@PeterWAWood belated hello.
 
A quick hello and goodbye - it's night here and has been for some time.
 
KK.
@PeterWAWood Bye. Good night.
 
I'll try to get the right parse parameters for you.
before I leave.
 
KK.
@PeterWAWood No need for wasting your time talking to individual noobs. I am sure you have better and important things to do.
@HostileFork You seem to enjoy wasting your time with individual noobs :-) I do not know anything about what is programming and what its not, but brainfuck code makes me cringe.
@PeterWAWood I have got a solution.
For
>> alphabet: charset [#"a" - #"z" #"A" - #"Z"]
>> numbers: charset [#"0" - #"9"]
>> alpha-num: union alpha numbers

>> parse "karunesh1" [3 16 alpha-num]
== true
 
>> n: 4
== 4

>> m: 6
== 6

>> rule: compose [(n) skip (m - n) "a" to end]
== [4 skip 2 "a" to end]

>> parse "abcdaaghijk" rule
== true
 
KK.
2:13 PM
@PeterWAWood Can you explain how you created rule ? Its straightforward but I am what I call an ultranoob :-)
 
@KK. Not at all. It's just that I have to get up in seven hours time.
The second parameter to parse is the rules for parse to use. I could have called it KK.
It should be in the form of a block.
>> alphabet: charset [#"a" - #"z" #"A" - #"Z"]
>> numbers: charset [#"0" - #"9"]
>> alpha-num: union alpha numbers
>> kk-rule: [3 16 alphanum]

>> parse "karunesh1" kk-rule
== true
I've separated the call of compose from the call of parse so there should be no chance of confusion between compose and parse that Fork mentioned.
Hope that is some help. Bye for now.
 
KK.
@PeterWAWood Bye. Thanks. Sleep well. :-)
 
@KK. RE: wasting time:... I'm old and don't have kids and don't go outside except to buy food and beer. :-) But I find that so-called noobs are the people who in a few months time have perspective and energy...while old people just argue for what it was like "back in their day". It's not a waste of time, I'll prove them wrong, watch me.
 
KK.
@HostileFork I am watching :-) :-)
 
@KK. And regarding the nature of computation, it's always nice to hear it from the horse's mouth. I think Alan Turing wrote up a reasonable argument, I'd read it once and it was kind of hard to find so I posted a copy of Alan Turing's Computability Explanation, in His Own Words
Hey @Pedro, we're debating the value of old people talking to kids on the Internet, in ways the FBI won't investigate. :-) How are you?
 
KK.
2:23 PM
@HostileFork It will take me about 5 minutes to read it.
 
@KK. Those will be 5 minutes well spent.
 
KK.
@Pedro Hello.
 
Alan Turing is a bit of a tragic figure, he was essentially driven to suicide despite saving the world, based on reasons of human weirdness, which is doubly odd for someone identifying strongly with computers.
 
@HostileFork So sad. Sound like you are trapped in your own past and glorifying it. Try having kids, get out a bit more for more than food and drugs.
 
Is there anywhere I can find the "goal" of REBOL?
 
2:39 PM
@Jina No kids for me, the AI are my children...
 
Open source developers may take some other directions as yet unstated
 
@Jina He's doing what he enjoys, and making a good living of it. Not everyone has to conform to your version of the American dream
 
@SomeKittens Well I am not Carl, and I am not the Rebol community, I'm just someone who's trying to build a bridge. So every answer given to a question like this, BY ME, is going to be through a filter... but not necessarily an incorrect filter... but try reading "Is Rebol actually a Revolution?"
 
2:42 PM
@SomeKittens Ditto neither do I need to be swayed by his.
 
@All thanks. Working on a blog article about Rebol, wanted some background
 
KK.
@SomeKittens I like your blog. Read only 2-3 posts, but love it. :-)
 
Thanks! You'd be surprised how rarely I get feedback.
 
KK.
I tried posting a comment, but since I know very less about how startups work, the only thing I could come up was I like your blog and I thought it would be a needless thing to say.
 
Truth is, I don't know that much either. I've found writing a blog is a great way to discover holes in my knowledge when I go to write about the topic.
 
KK.
2:52 PM
@SomeKittens Gotta run for dinner. Be back in a few minutes, or tomorrow morning (from India)
 
@KK. Wouldn't have guessed it, you've got great English skills
0
Q: Why do we use curly braces?

SomeKittensThe definition of "C-Style language" can practically be simplified down to "uses curly braces ({})." Why do we use that particular character (and why not something more reasonable, like [], which doesn't require the shift key)? Wikipedia tells us that C uses said braces, but not why.

 
KK.
3:13 PM
@SomeKittens Maybe thats because I have been chatting in this room since last few days.
HostileFork will tell you about my English 'skills' when I tried subtitling dockimbel's red talk.
@pekr Hello. New photo. Not angry photo anymore :-)
 
hello - the photo was not about anger - just self-shoot with my Canon/Manfrotto gear, actually I am smiling, but it can't be seen :-)
 
3:48 PM
@KK. Well I assume you wanted corrections, though it is interesting because through seeing what you "heard" I saw how much my mind as an english speaker fills in the blanks... it's like what you heard was actually more right in terms of the data...
One realizes how much context [] (Rebol term) matters. :-)
 
KK.
@HostileFork lol :-)
 
@KK. Check out Loudly Recursive: Deep Rebol, Bindology but this stuff keeps getting deeper. It's @Ladislav you want to talk to about this, not me.
Or BrianH if he isn't losing his mind lately.
Don't bug him if he's losing his mind, we need him.
Say soothing things. Like "Hey BrianH. Love the hat!" Doesn't matter if he's wearing a hat. Just say it. It might get him to realize he's not wearing a hat, and he might open a refrigerator and eat something.
 
Fork - NickA posted one link to AltME, you might like (find funny :-) blog.nsbasic.com/?p=1112
 
KK.
@pekr @HostileFork I was once reading a novel based on Russian characters, and during a discussion they decided that the thing that tastes the most sweet and bitter at the same time is choice :-)
 
KK.
4:08 PM
>> alpha: charset [#"a" - #"z" #"A" - #"Z"]
== make bitset! #{
0000000000000000FEFFFF07FEFFFF0700000000000000000000000000000000
}
>> numbers: charset [#"0" - #"9"]
== make bitset! #{
000000000000FF03000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
}
>> specials: charset {!@#$%^&*()_+-=[]\|;':"<>?,./}
== make bitset! #{
00000000FEFF00FC010000B80000001000000000000000000000000000000000
}
>> password-chars: union alpha numbers specials
== make bitset! #{
00000000FEFF00FC010000B80000001000000000000000000000000000000000
Shouldn't this be true?
 
@KK. Rebol 2 or 3?
 
KK.
@HostileFork 2
 
UNION takes two blocks, not three.
try
pass-chars: union alpha numbers pass-chars: union pass-chars specials
 
@KK. I think I have to make a personal rule not to even begin trying to support answers on Rebol 2, I have enough to worry about. :-) I'm too busy finding unicode hashing bugs in Rebol 3...it would be a distraction...
 
KK.
@jina You are right about union taking 2 blocks and not 3. It works. Thanks :-)
@HostileFork Don't worry. There are lots of people in this room using r2.
 
4:16 PM
0
Q: How do I pick elements from a block using a string in Rebol?

rebnoobGiven this block fs: [ usr [ local [ bin [] ] share [] ] bin [] ] I could retrieve an item using a path notation like so: fs/usr/local How do I do the same when the path is a string? path: "/usr/local" find fs path ;does not work! find fs to-path path ;does not work!

 
password -chars: union alpha union numbers specials ;;; in one assignment
 
posted on February 26, 2013 by Ladislav

[Bug] The test below crashes the interpreter.

posted on February 26, 2013 by Ladislav

[Comment] In the core-tests suite.

 
4:52 PM
Still hoping for the day when the activity here warrants a USER SPACE DISTINCTION from those DEVELOPING THE LANGUAGE. I'm all for it, but AltME has to meet me in the middle.
 
KK.
@HostileFork I was thinking the opposite when I read this, but then I do not understand a lot of the discussions some of the implementors have.
 
@KK. Well you have to crawl before you can walk, and you have to walk before you can run, and @BrianH will just trip your mind up if you even start talking to him, so ignore anything he says even if he's right.
@KK. I'm Rebol training wheels, you will soon learn to ignore me. :-)
 
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