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Pap
9:00 PM
@Scratte I would recommend to read about what systemd is and what it does. Even the people in the core team of kernel development boycott it.
 
@Zoe Now that you got the diamond, shall we have the celebration discourse ?
 
@AdrianMole They have actually been helpful with such things in the past.
 
@Zoe Me too. I should probably go and try to understand why some people hate systemd so much.
 
Tilting at windmills. You could also read Don Quixote for research.
 
Pap
@Scratte because isn init system must be an init system, not an extremely intrusive second kernel that runs on PID 1/
 
9:01 PM
@CodyGray Maybe that's a better time spent and go on happily using my Linux Mint that's so pleasingly green :)
 
Yes.
 
Pap
@Scratte My desktop is also pleasingly green and black xD
 
I'm getting a feeling it's religious like Linux versus Windows.. or tabs versus spaces.
 
Yes.
 
systemdabadidabadie
 
9:02 PM
It's actually very similar. The people who hate systemd hate it because of its monolithic nature, which is the same reason people dislike Windows.
 
Pap
Tabs are evil xD
People hate systemd for a reason... Actually LOTS of reasons.
 
Nice! I have a Windows 10 and a Linux Mint.. I must be the devils child ready to take over the world when the switch is triggered.
 
And yet, systemd exists for lots of reasons. So there are arguments on both sides.
 
Pap
@CodyGray if that silly guy who started it didn't work for redhat, you wouldn't even know systemd ever existed.
 
@Catija you're always welcome to ask there :-)
 
9:04 PM
@CodyGray We should anyway credit Microsoft for WSL (at least WSL 1), the cmd ANSI seq. on cmd and the "Linux" Win kernel API prove that the actual Win10 core is more unix like than the previous NTCore.
 
@Pap People hate olives for reasons too. I don't agree with them. I like olives ;)
 
@TylerH :D Thanks
 
As we continue to pluck people out of SOCVR to become mods, there becomes less and less reason to ask there. :-)
 
Pap
@Scratte Seriously, go read about what systemd is and what it does. Even reading Poettering's nonsense will help.
 
@Pap I'm sorry, but that sounds like a really ridiculous argument. Yes, it's trivially true that if the developer of a tool didn't work for somewhere where that tool could be promoted, then many fewer people would know about it. But that doesn't prove that the tool is flawed.
 
9:06 PM
I'm having a hard time finding the Kernel version number at the moment. Maybe in a few months :)
 
Zoe
I know what systemd is, and I've read the debates, I still don't care enough to do anything about it :p
 
Exactly.
 
Zoe
Works fine, my system boots, and I can make services for my obscure projects, all without needing to do an awful lot of dark magic configuration. That's all I need :p
 
@Zoe Same. It's the default on the distro I use, doesn't cause any acute pain, so vOv
 
@Zilog80 Yes, WSL is great. I am a Windows programmer. My goal is not to spread hate or FUD about any operating system. That's just silliness. No one younger than 13 is allowed on SO, so we should all be above that type of immaturity.
 
Pap
9:07 PM
@Zoe people don't care much even for "social" media surveillance nowadays...
 
@CodyGray The problem is, I usually ask questions when I can't answer them myself. If we had a real, effective way for me to pretend to be a normal user (at different rep levels) and get screenshots when needed... I wouldn't even need to ask. But right now I either use a sock (if applicable) or ask a plebe. :P
 
@Catija You didn't take over all of Shog9's old dirty socks?
 
Pap
Window$ is not an operating system. It's literally spyware.
 
Zoe
@Pap Last I checked, the systemd controversy didn't include telemetry
 
@CodyGray Eeeewwwww
 
9:08 PM
Spyware (incl Ubuntu's Amazon integration) is another story for sure.
 
I whish i could be young enough to keep some immaturity...
 
Pap
@Zoe Telemetry is another topic
 
@Zoe And the celebration discourse ?
 
@Scratte: I won't go into details, since it's almost midnight for me and a chat room is not the right place for this, but: 1. It is not necessary for achieving the goals originally/commonly associated with it (e.g. faster boot, use of dbus etc). 2. Catherdal development model: Single piece of software (controlled centrally by a single person) does all the things. 3. Functional expansionism - not just functionality creep, it gradually takes over more and more of the userland of Linux system.
@Scratte: 4. Has had numerous security issues and bugs which remain unresolved for a long time. 5. When it fails, your system is hosed. 6. Search the web for other, and more detailed, critiques of systemd...
 
@Pap It seems to be able to handle the processes I start pretty well.
 
Pap
9:09 PM
And Window$ is not spyware just because of mandatory telemetry (even if you hack it to shut it up, it comes back next update. And that's only one of the 60+ spyware included in Window$
 
Zoe
@Pap No, because you kinda brought it up ^^"
@Zilog80 I thought that was what we were doing
 
@Zoe well done ... :D
 
@Pap Why are you using the dollar sign instead of the letter 's' when you refer to Windows?
 
@einpoklum Thank you for that :)
 
Pap
@TylerH For blatantly obvious reasons?
 
9:11 PM
Clearly not, since someone's asking you
 
Money
 
is it similar to using u instead of you?
 
Because microsoft love it :p
 
It's massively improved boot times for my embedded systems, @einpoklum, compared to prior solutions. If nothing else, because it can start things in parallel.
I agree it may not be necessary, but it does work.
 
Same reason people say "Micro$oft"
 
9:12 PM
@Scratte: I specifically did not mention personal issues, which do exist, since I feel that just muddies the waters.
 
Pap
I am not going to argue about that. If you like to use Micr$oft crap or Poettering's pooware, by all means, keep doing so. It's your computer, not mine xD
 
@Nick Because they're 6 years old?
3
 
6 years old or a fox
 
@einpoklum It does, yes :) It makes it harder to figure out what is what :)
 
I remember, far far ago, when there was costly arch with SunOS, AIX, etc., costly SCO on x86, and the cheap DOS/Win16 on x86...
 
9:12 PM
Got it, thanks. I'll pull a Kevin and update my ignore list
 
@Nick Oh, so the answer to "What does a fox say" is "Mico$oft"?
 
@CodyGray: I didn't say systemd boots slowly, I said you don't need it for fast boot. Microsoft Windows has beeing booting fast for a while, someone could argue for it because it improved their boot times when they switched...
 
There are lots of conceivable solutions for a problem, but many fewer practical, concrete, already-implemented solutions.
 
Pap
@einpoklum Window$ 10 never really shuts down by default. it it did, it would need 5 minutes to boot againxD
 
9:14 PM
Aaandd... now we get into the outright misinformation. Nice!
 
@Pap: That's not true, cold booting it is usually very fast.
 
@Pap I shut down my Windows completely every time and it boots in less than a minute.
 
@Pap even with fast boot enabled, it really does cut the power to the CPU when you turn it off
 
haha, it's incredible someone had to say that.
 
@CodyGray: I disagree that systemd is a "practical" solution. It is halfway to switching operating systems entirely.
 
9:16 PM
I've no objection to switching operating systems entirely if it provides me with a highly desirable feature.
 
Also, have you tried actual concrete init systems other than systemd, or read about them and concluded they are impractical?
 
I've also gone the other way and switched some embedded systems to full bare-metal instead of FreeRTOS.
Yes, I've tried several of them, both in the lab and in production.
 
Pap
Seriously guys, read what "fast boot" is on Window$... I never said you don;t turn the power off. try to mount a Window$ partition from Linux and you will see. The disk is NOT properly shut down.
 
@Pap It is when you ask it to be.
 
Pap
No it is not.
 
9:17 PM
@CodyGray: Ok, fair enough, but you would understand why people object to a "switch your OS" solution to a boot speed problem.
 
I suppose. But I think that "switch your OS" is extreme hyperbole.
 
@Pap I also unplug it when I leave my home. Tell me, does it come with a generator too?
 
@Pap: That's interesting. What does happen when you mount your disk from another OS? Do you have a link to an explanation?
 
Yes, "fast boot" is more akin to hibernation. Obviously, you should not use fast boot if you're trying to dual boot. But that's a very different argument than "doesn't shut down".
 
@CodyGray It literally is hibernation
 
9:19 PM
It's simple : never reboot nor shutdown. F!#% the planet ^^
 
It's not identical...
But it works in effectively the same way.
 
"During Fast Startup, the kernel session is not closed, but it is hibernated"
 
Pap
I am done with that conversation about Window$. Go look it up and you will see. Power off doesn't mean the disk is shut off properly. Elementary stuff, you will find tons of info about it.
 
Yes, failure to read the documentation often leads to surprise.
 
i mean
 
9:20 PM
@Pap I'm not sure I get it. If the memory is written to disk, the disk can still be shut off completely and fast boot.
 
Pap
Read what Smitop just said xD
 
(more seriously, i've noted that Win10/serv2019 is less prone to update reboot in this last year, i guess its meaningful regarding the core OS evolution..)
 
you can find content on youtube that supports any view you might possibly have
 
@Smitop Yes, but hibernation saves the entire state of memory. Fast boot does not. That means opened applications, files, etc. are not preserved in fast boot.
 
"Just go research it" is lazy
 
9:21 PM
here are some actual details about potential fast boot problems: unix.stackexchange.com/questions/477733/…
 
Pap
@KevinB It is, I am not trained to teach elementary stuff xD
 
Arguably, that's as much a bug in Linux's handling of Windows file systems as it is a problem in Windows.
Windows has no problem reading its own file systems.
 
Pap
@CodyGray Enjoy your Window$ magnificent "operating system" then xD
 
@CodyGray microsoft calls it hibernation: docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/test/weg/…
 
You really have to read all the words, not just one of them.
It uses the hibernation infrastructure, and, as you noted above, it hibernates the kernel. But it does not hibernate the entire system, as hibernation mode does, so it is not identical.
 
Pap
9:25 PM
The fact it is hilbernation, and even after it boots WaasMedic uses 50% of your CPU for more than 30 minutes is details. The fact it is proven spyware in more than 60 ways is, again, details.
 
@CodyGray I didn't mean to imply it was identical, I think I miscommunicated there
 
Perhaps. I've been pretty consistently saying that it is similar to hibernation, but not identical.
 
@CodyGray That's what I've been trying to say too
 
@Pap That just makes it all sound like a conspiracy theory.
 
@KevinB I thought good programmers were lazy
 
9:27 PM
There's different kinds of lazyness...
 
Hibernation has nothing to do with Windows Update.
 
On another note... these days, booting with sysv-init is, typically, hardly even an issue. It's quite snappy. And of course there are the faster ones.
 
@Zoe congrats
:D
 
Zoe
^^
 
@JonClements I did say that didn't I
 
Pap
9:28 PM
@Scratte It's just facts. It even sends what keys you hit by default. You can shut down some of the spyware, but not all. And even if you do, it turns them on, ALL of them after next update. If that's not a virus behavior, I adon't know what it is.
 
@Magisch yup :)
 
well then
 
@CodyGray: Here's a benchmark somebody ran in 2019, for example: youtube.com/watch?v=7Nm0yBouAvs . Caveat: Can't vouch for the fairness of the experiment.
 
@Pap Could be seen as an "invasive" telemetry, but with Richmond i guess it's still mainly telemetry... They love big bunch of data...
 
@Zoe well deserved win for you. I hope you'll find that being a mod is all that you wanted it to be and that you'll find fulfillment in it.
3
 
9:29 PM
Yeah, I don't draw conclusions or do research by watching random YouTube videos.
 
@Pap That just makes it sound even less like facts. "The sky is yellow. It's a fact." ..I'd like a little more background there to be convinced.
 
Pap
You guys really trying to convince a Micro$0ft lover about the facts he should know already? xD
 
Windows has telemetry. Breaking news!
Calling someone a "Micro$0ft lover" because they happen to use Windows for eminently practical reasons (e.g., their customers use it, and they write software that runs on it) is just stupid.
3
 
this has gone quite off the deepend into tin-foil hat territory
Data is beign collected! Zomg they must be evil!
 
I use windows because I use windows at work, which I don't get to choose, and therefore have a lot of experience with windows, and because most of the things I run work best/only on windows
 
Pap
9:31 PM
Nopw I will hear the most stupid, retarded argument ever" "I have nothing to hide, so I don't care. I hear that often and every time it shocks me how humanity degraded xD
 
@Pap: You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Please try toning it down. I realize it's upsetting having to explain your position to people again and again, but still.
 
I don't particularly like microsoft but i'm not going to gimp myself to take a stand against them, I don't hate them that much
 
And now for something completely different - The election has ended. I can answer frequently-asked questions about elections (type @ElectionBot help for more info).
 
@CodyGray Well, you'd have to be stuck the 90s to be surprised about that...
 
Oh, I agree, the "I have nothing to hide" argument in response to privacy concerns is also stupid. Don't see why we need that straw man trotted out.
 
9:32 PM
@ElectionBot for once it is something completely different
 
There will be no such thing as free will; there will only be my will.
 
@CodyGray or why the hostility is so much
you'd think we're all microsoft employees
from the tone
 
@Pap I can't say you're going to win me over with that.. it reminds me of a racist remark that was used a lot some years back.
 
Microsoft employees who built and designed the features ourselves!
... I wish :-D
 
@KevinB: Well, Microsoft did "Purchase Evil from Satan" :-P ... bbspot.com/News/2000/4/MS_Buys_Evil.html
 
9:33 PM
The good point is that it seems you're all young enough to not be above that...
 
Pap
@Scratte I am not rying to "win you", or anyone else. Like I saud before, it is your computer and your privacy. Not mine.
 
@Pap Why then are you agressively insulting everyone with a different viewpoint to you here?
 
Pap
I don't think I insulted anyone.
 
There must be some purpose for you to write here, so what is it? You're not making friends or convincing anyone, so why write?
 
@Pap Basically this is what I got from you "I'm right. I can't be bothered to explain such basic stuff. Research it. If you don't agree, you're on the wrong team. Good luck on your own demise."
 
9:35 PM
I, too, remember spelling "Microsoft" and "Windows" with dollar signs. I was probably half my current age.
 
https://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/53340027#53340027
That's pretty caustic from my point of view. It reads like a perjorative insult towards people who use microsoft products. I don't know if you intended the demeaning connotation to that extent but that's how it comes across.
 
I mean... you insulted anyone who likes Ubuntu by calling it... some weird portmanteau of ubuntu and something else.
 
@StephenRauch @Zoe Congratulations on winning the election!
 
Pap
@Catija if you call my GNU/Linux "crap" I won;t be insulted xD
 
I don't get your goal here. You come in here and use a lot of caustic language arguing with people, but you claim to not want to convince anyone of a different viewpoint, so why argue at all?
 
9:36 PM
... in a room about the mod election.
 
From my pov, it's now meaningless, as the biggest center of coast is now the cloud infra (where you can run whatever IS you want, the price is generally the same... systemd or not..)
 
Undo has frozen this room.
 
Is talking in a frozen room like ice skating?
4
 
the election is over now, and we have set a new record for time to a Linux debate
8
 
I've just noticed when a room is frozen you get a kind of temporary kick effect... never noticed that before when I've frozen a room... weird
 
9:40 PM
I've never noticed that before when freezing a room.
2
Isn't this nice? A room for mods to talk to themselves!
 
I did notice it sort of blink - but that's pretty normal, since the room state is changing. It does that when the room changes from public to gallery - and since frozen may even be similar to gallery where the only people with chat permissions are diamonds and ROs... OMG... I bet that's essentially what it is...
 
Makes sense that it would blink as you were freezing it. The glimmer of light from the ice and all...
 
Yeah... "blink" is probably a better word... but when I've been the one that's done the freeze... I'm fairly sure I've not noticed it do that...
 
Can I still chat here? :(
 
You're one of the few who can.
 
9:44 PM
@BhargavRao Only if you start a debate about linux
8
 
Well... I think it's fair to say that the 2021 election has concluded - congrats to the new moderators. Let's do this again... maybe not for at least another year, though. I'm too exhausted.
6
 
Heh
 

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