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1:12 AM
Good morning!
@TheMaster It's done.
 
@Tanaike good morning!
 
@OlegValter Good morning!
 
hi! sorry if we were spammy with invitations (no one knows who invited whom by design, so it is kind of a mess) - just general discussions about apps script and occasionally (ok I lied, a lot of times - discussions and votes on retagging / wiki updating / question review / closing / reopening, etc)
And welcome!
@Tanaike 👍
 
@OlegValter 👍
 
@Tanaike oh, shoot, I think @TheMaster asked to wait on it, so probably the message addressed us as well. Well, the deed is done. Also, I don't think we can convince anyone to make another change about ...
@TheMaster really? Then I glad I withdrawed the proposal about -projects earlier, it wouldn't be possible to synonymize to the main tag later on then...
 
1:27 AM
Because of the time difference in Japan, I might miss the discussions in the real time. But I check the back log.
@OlegValter I want to understand about "We need a meta post. It seems chaining is disallowed.". Can I ask you about "meta post" and "chaining"?
 
@TheMaster @Tanaike @RafaGuillermo @ziganotschka @MariosKaramanis - not sure who already voted for that, but just pinging again - please finish off synonymizing of [tag:gcal] to [tag:google-calendar-api], it needs 2 more votes to go (they are the same tag).
For those who missed the discussion - unfortunately, someone mod-approved merging of [tag:google-calendar] to [tag:google-calendar-api], so the only target is the latter :(
sure, you can always ask me to recap, I seem to be here in most timezones :) "chaining" here means something like this: [tag:google-apps-script] <- [tag:google-apps-script-web-application] <- [tag:gas-web-app] (I though it was possible, but oh well).
About the "meta post" - I assume it refers to requesting a change in tag synonymization, just as it is usually done (but given that folks start to complain about us being too active on meta this might be problematic...)
 
@OlegValter I had already done it.
 
@Tanaike thank you 👍 (I just added you to the list just in case)
 
@OlegValter Thank you. At first, about "chaining", in that case, when is chaining to , when I click the tag of , is opened. Is my understanding correct?
 
@Tanaike yes, that would be the normal process. Although it seems we cannot chain like that - turns out if a tag has a synonym, it cannot be made synonym of another tag, forming a chain (guess this is because SE is strictly against tag inheritance), at least not without mod intervention.
 
1:40 AM
@OlegValter Thank you for the detail information. In that case, when the tag of "google-apps-script-web-application" is clicked, the tag of "google-apps-script" is opened, while "google-apps-script-web-application" is existing. I understood like this. About "meta post", in this case, for example, "google-apps-script-web-application" is removed?
 
@Tanaike I think @TheMaster has only something like this in mind : synonymize to . In order to do that, a meta post and an acceptance from a mod is now required (which is troublesome given the previous interactions on that tag) as it turns out chaining is impossible
 
@OlegValter Thank you. Now I think that I could understand about it.
 
@Tanaike @TheMaster @RafaGuillermo @ziganotschka @Ruben @PuzzledBoy @MariosKaramanis, while looking for a meta post I found this article, interesting read: damevski.github.io/files/sotags_jss19_preprint.pdf
@Tanaike 👍
 
1:55 AM
@OlegValter Thank you for the interesting report. I think that the approach of the report is interesting. The current tags in Stackoverflow might be the similar with the concept of hierarchy indicating in that report?
 
@Tanaike stumbled upon it completely by accident :) The report is indeed interesting, although mostly in academic sense, because as far as I know SE repeatedly denied any claims that tags are hierarchical, treating them as a flat map of topics. That said, a concept of topics is directly applicable
 
@OlegValter Sorry. What is "SE" in this case?
 
@Tanaike oh, sorry for the confusion, I usually refer to the company that owns stack exchange as SE (SE Inc.)!
 
@OlegValter Thank you. I understand it.
@OlegValter In your replying, the proposal of authors of report is different direction with the users of SE. Is my understanding correct?
 
@Tanaike 👍 this Q&A is a good read on why the hierarchical model is not implemented on SO: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/262823/…. Lack of inheritance makes the tags as a whole a weighted graph I guess
@Tanaike as far as I could understand, both approaches (hierarchy / flat map) are considered, but it seems that authors give preference to hierarchical model: "that hierarchical tags help both contributors and readers as they perform exploratory searches" in both research and practical application
@Tanaike it seems though that this approach goes against what currently SO community (and the company) tends to view tags as - after all even we are presently actively changing sub-tags (which entails inheritance) to separate tags (which would mean mapping), so I think you understand correctly
Also my fingers are itching to find the articles mentioned in references :)
 
2:16 AM
@OlegValter Thank you for the information. When the hierarchical model is try to be implemented, it seems that the duplicated tags in the lower classes might be the important issue. In that case, all tags are required to have the hierarchy, although I cannot clearly image about this? If it's so, this might be more complicate.
@OlegValter It seems that most references of the report seems various journals. In this case, in order to get the documents, is might be required to access from the university and laboratory.
 
@Tanaike I guess for the purposes of analysis of SO data it can be beneficial to treat tags as a hierarchical structure with a certain set of "base" tags from which other tags inherit, but I agree that in practice that would be a disaster (I suppose it will just bump into standard problems of classical inheritance like tight coupling)
 
@OlegValter I agree with you. When this direction is considered, I might be able to understand that to partially implement the hierarchical model is not agreed.
 
2:35 AM
@Tanaike yeah, I think two competing systems would be quite an issue (well, I suppose we emulate the "hierarchical" model with branching tags now, but under the hood this is still a flat map). I personally like to think of tags in terms of sets, that would make the whole retagging process much simpler (just look which one is a superset or subset, is there an intersection or do they represent the same domain), but the problem with that is visibility, of course
 
@OlegValter Yes. From these discussions, although this might not be direct relationship with our goal, I think if I could image for smoothly coexisting both the hierarchy model and the distribution model for a big sample in the future. I think that this can be used for various scenes.
 
@Tanaike I think in that case the approach outlined in the report may be helpful, if not applied directly to the tagging process, the hierarchical model can be useful [off-topic, I think "directly related" would be shorter :)]
 
@OlegValter 👍
 
2:51 AM
@Tanaike 👍
 
 
2 hours later…
4:52 AM
@Tanaike Are you ok with to synonym?
 
5:19 AM
@all Good morning !
 
5:29 AM
@TheMaster In that case, "google-apps-script-web-application" is used as "web-application" and "google-apps-script-web-application" cannot be used. Is my understanding correct?
@PuzzledBoy Good morning!
 
@Tanaike Yes. All questions tagged with would be tagged to
 
@TheMaster Thank you. When I saw the wiki of , I saw "Do NOT use alone.". This means that when is used for a question related to the Web Apps created by Google Apps Script, should be used together with . Is this understanding correct?
 
@Tanaike Yes. That is correct.
 
@TheMaster Thank you. I could confirm whether my understanding is correct. For example, is used, it seems that all questions include . stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/…
@TheMaster From this situation, when is changed to , I think that it's no problem. But when new user posts a question, I'm worry about that the pair of and might be used rather than the pair of and .
 
@Tanaike There were 5 questions yesterday. I retagged them data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/revision/1274461/1570150/…
@Tanaike Or alternate proposal: to itself.
 
5:41 AM
@TheMaster Oh! I confirmed it just now.
 
@Tanaike Or alternate proposal: google-apps-script-web-application to google-apps-script itself. What do you think about this?
 
@TheMaster When there are 2 choices of to or to , and when the number of tags is required to be reduced, I think that the latter is suitable. If the number of tags is not required to be reduced, I think that the former is suitable. I'm sorry for my unclear comment.
2
 
@Tanaike i was looking for some help related to convert code in addons with google console. but i need your expert advice.
may be you are busy , if there any time slot you can discuss with me ? :)
That's the reason i have created another chat room , but i couldn't find that
 
@Tanaike Which would you prefer?
@PuzzledBoy Your room:
 
thanks, somehow i was not able to find..
 
5:53 AM
@PuzzledBoy Unfortunately, recently, I don't create the addon after the specification was changed. So I think that I'm not useful for your situation. I apologize for this.
@TheMaster About the number of tags, it is required to be reduced generally on Stackoverflow?
 
@Tanaike :) ok thank you for your response
 
@Tanaike There is no explicit requirement. Whatever is comfortable and right for you.
 
@PuzzledBoy But I would like to create new addon under the new specification. So when I created it, I will be able to discuss about it. So now, I apologize.
@TheMaster In the case of my personal direction, I think that the former is suitable. Namely, it's to . But if this was not the direction everyone want, I have to apologize.
2
 
@Tanaike Thank you. I'll create a vote room and a meta post later. One last question, Do you prefer status quo, i.e., as it is or synonymizing it into to ?
 
@TheMaster In that case, the following 2 patterns? 1. disappears. cannot be used any more. 2. can be used while is linked to .
 
6:18 AM
@Tanaike Pattern 1 status quo: Nothing happens. Everything stays as it is. Pattern2: synonym synonimized to . Pattern3: Merge disappears . Pattern3 can only happen after successful pattern2 meta.stackexchange.com/questions/70710/…
 
@TheMaster Thank you. I'm sorry for my poor understanding. In the pattern 2, when an user post a question using , the tag is automatically changed to ? Or the tag of is NOT automatically changed to . But when users click , is opened?
 
@Tanaike it'll automatically be changed, when adding questions in pattern2.
@Tanaike try adding to a question and see. Same effect
 
@TheMaster Thank you. I could understand that when an user post a question using , the tag is automatically changed to . In this case, I think that the questioners can simply use both tags of and without worries. From this situation, my direction is "synonymizing it into to ".
2
 
6:42 AM
@Tanaike Thank you. After Pattern2, pattern3 merge can happen, where disappears and users won't be able to add the tag. To add the tag, some one with 2.5k rep need to create it again: So, new users won't be able to create it/add it.
 
@TheMaster For example, after the pattern 2 was finished, the pattern 3 is not run. Is there such situation?
 
@Tanaike Yes. Pattern3 is not mandatory. We need to request mods and usually pattern3 never happens unless a moderator intervenes
Problem with only Pattern2 is that... if user only tags , it'll change to only as the "sole" tag.
 
@TheMaster Thank you. I could understand about it. In that case, I think "synonymizing it into to ". But this is my personal comment.
 
7:04 AM
@TheMaster Done by my understanding from these discussions.
 
@Tanaike 👍
 
@TheMaster 👍
@TheMaster I'm a bit away from here. Thank you for your support and nice discussions!
 
@Tanaike 👍
 
7:20 AM
Good morning everyone! :)
@TheMaster Vote cast.
 
7:31 AM
@OlegValter Good morning! Doy ou have the link for the synonymizaiton of to ?
@TheMaster I actually might prefer the synanomization of google-apps-script-web-application to google-apps-script instead of web-applications.
 
@ziganotschka @Tanaike @OlegValter @RafaGuillermo @MariosKaramanis @Ruben. Alternative proposal vote:
@ziganotschka I'm ok with both proposals as long as we split up the combined tag.
 
7:50 AM
@TheMaster 👍
 
@TheMaster In this case, should a yea vote be cast on both proposals? Because I'm of the same opinion, the combined tag needs to be binned but the direction it takes of these two is not so critical
 
@RafaGuillermo Yes please
Whichever vote is higher, I'll make it public during meta post.
 
@TheMaster thanks!
 
8:05 AM
@ziganotschka I don't have score to vote. Do you?
 
@TheMaster Yes, just voted. I find gcal sounds horrible...
 
@ziganotschka I too have voted on it, though a while ago it seems as I already had when I opened the synonym page
 
8:19 AM
I'm back.
 
@Tanaike Hi...We also made a alternative proposal vote. If you're ok with that too, Vote there too chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/219659/…
 
@TheMaster Yes. I will check it.
@TheMaster I would like to confirm my understanding. In the current stage, when is synonymized to by , when users post the question related to the Web Apps, users will use synonymized from and . Is my understanding correct?
 
@Tanaike So, becomes . So, users interested may add generic tag, if needed. For eg, there are around 960 questions about google.script.run without a [gas-web-app] tag. See stackoverflow.com/…
 
@TheMaster Thank you. I could understand about this. And it's done.
 
9:00 AM
About this question, has anyone discovered any information about this behaviour? stackoverflow.com/questions/63321360/…
This disassociation is something I have observed for a long time, and mentioned it in related answers but as to the cause I'm still not certain
 
in Discussion on question by Rubén: Why Class Range getValues sometimes returns [[]] when chained to Class Sheet getActiveRange?, 2 days ago, by TheMaster
@Tanaike Agree. I'm just saying. Best way is to custom menu or macros or any method that leaves the spreadsheet in focus and NOT in background
 
@TheMaster Yes, this is very similar to my conclusion too, though it got me thinking about this 'connection' between the UI and the script within the browser. I haven't observed anything yet from just inspecting the network tab for the Sheet or Script but I think that there is something - either a locally cached token or a ping/ack-style message going to Google servers which keeps the two tabs connected, which is then lost under certain circumstances
In these circumstances, the script acts as if the UI isn't open at all - in fact in just the same way that an installable trigger would run, which makes me think that there is some kind of server-side 'instance' of the sheet open which the disassociated script uses to obtain values
 
@RafaGuillermo Agree closing that one as a duplicate
@RafaGuillermo or it's just client side pinging the server regularly
@RafaGuillermo I really don't think active is maintained client side between two tabs/windows. The sheets tab stops pinging the server due to memory or whatever issues... that causes the server to default to A1
 
9:20 AM
@TheMaster This is what I'm more inclined to believe, though I haven't actively seen anything so far. It's really piqued my interest though so I've been trying to do as much digging as I can
@TheMaster The only thing that suggests otherwise, is that if you have both tabs open and you close the Sheet tab, then the script tab will also automatically close
 
9:32 AM
@RafaGuillermo That's easy. Tools> script editor uses window.open(). The child gets reference to parent window. I guess they can also communicate with each other. But the script doesn't run client side in the browser. It runs in server side.
@RafaGuillermo I can control Google sheets from google web app( different tab). See stackoverflow.com/questions/57785797/…
 
@TheMaster Hmm, I'm not 100% sure this is the case. I am going to attempt to reproduce this again as it has been a long while since I last tried (read: 10 months), but iirc once the disassociation occurs then closing the Drive file tab doesn't close the script tab also
@TheMaster Will give this a read now
 
@RafaGuillermo Overall dont think it's worth the research. New editor is coming. We can just leave it as active*() is a bit buggy.
 
9:50 AM
@TheMaster 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 This is a very nice workaround, kudos
@TheMaster I wouldn't go as far as to expect a new editor to fix bugs ;) But I see your point. I think at this stage it's more something I'm interested in seeing the mechanics of so to get a proper grasp on its limitations
 
@RafaGuillermo They don't call me Master for nothin🙋
@RafaGuillermo 👍
 
@TheMaster 🙇🏼‍♂🙇🏼‍♂
 
@OlegValter I think it'll be relatively easy to convince moderators to synonym to than Cody is already against it. If we provide a united front, may be we can undo the synonym at least. I believe [web-application] is a better idea but this requires convincing others. So better to go with [google-apps-script]. Thoughts?
 
10:08 AM
@TheMaster what happens if the votes on both proposals are equal? :) I missed the second one, btw and voted as originally agreed. Hm, I suppose we are now considering fallback proposal as primary?
@TheMaster I mentioned before that going the route may be easier, and I can manage to move the wikis of the tags that died this week during the weekends, so I am not against it
@TheMaster also, I will be here only sporadically for the next several hours, so I apologize in advance for delayed responses. Off-topic: please, please, add an alternative style of vote - Aye :)
 
@OlegValter Yes.
@OlegValter 👍
 
 
2 hours later…
12:08 PM
@RafaGuillermo Clarification. I thought you were referring to We can just leave it as active*() is a bit buggy. as a nice workaround. I thought it was a joke. Hence hey don't call me Master for nothin🙋... chatting is hard.
 
1:00 PM
@TheMaster Admittedly, this too is a nice workaround, certainly about as complete as some of the GAS documentation about 😏 But that aside, I've seen your answers... you have every right to be called the Master 😉
 
1:17 PM
@RafaGuillermo @OlegValter @Tanaike @ziganotschka @MariosKaramanis :
0
Q: Synonymise subtag [google-apps-script-web-application] to main tag [google-apps-script]

TheMasterWhy? Subject matter experts participating in meta agree that a separate tag isn't warranted and should be synonymized: Consensus: For:2 Gold + 3 Bronze; Against:1 Silver(presumed) More than 80% of the questions in the tag were a result of retagging. 54% me. The rest 26% by other 4 users - SEDE...

 
@TheMaster Is it not at all possible to reverse the tag synonyms we've already made?
 
@RafaGuillermo We need a moderator to do that. If it were possible, I wouldn't have made a post
 
1:34 PM
@TheMaster Gotcha, was confused by the wording of Reverse synonym google-apps-script-web-application already proposed on the tag gas-web-app. I suppose this is better than the ol' retag overhaul, wait 24 hours for the tag to die and then make new synonyms
 
1:44 PM
@TheMaster You have to tell us the sotry about the origin of your nickname ;-)
 
@RafaGuillermo If history shows anything, More than likely We have to retag everything back.
 
@ziganotschka I assume they started on the site as TheApprentice until 20k rep was hit
@TheMaster This is honestly what I feared.
 
@ziganotschka I had a single emoji for a name for a long time. I sensed new users didn't respect me that much though. This was a experiment to see if new users respected me more... I'd say results were marginally better.
@RafaGuillermo 400 questions can be done though. If we all do 10 questions a day, should be more than enough.
 
@TheMaster haha, so you gain respect by impressing with your name? XD
 
@TheMaster I think this is a function of the general stackoverflow mentality rather than ones display name... though also I think display names do have an effect. Can I ask, what was the emoji?
@TheMaster Yeah it's certainly doable, we've done it before (albeit with a lower number of questions) so I see no reason that it can be done again. 400 certianly could be worse, but let's see how the meta discussion goes first
 
2:00 PM
@RafaGuillermo try changing your name to a emoji
 
@TheMaster I don't suppose 🖕🏼 will be considered a friendly name for the site
 
2:19 PM
@RafaGuillermo 😏
@ziganotschka It's not actually about respect though. I wanted them to do what I tell them to improve/clarify the question... so that I can immediately clarify the problem and answer the question. With a proud name like mine, new users generally think I can answer their question and clarify the issues I raise.
 
2:48 PM
Did you know @Alan wells voted to get rid of
 
@TheMaster You approach seems to work flawlessly ✔
 
@TheMaster How can you be sure?
 
@RafaGuillermo See vote room
@ziganotschka Meh... It's weak at best.
 
@TheMaster No, I hadn't seen. To be honest I've started to lean more towards that way than the way anyway. I've seen them about here quite a lot, though they seem to come and go
 
While that's going on, Let's discuss about [gas-add-on] and [gs-custom-function].
@RafaGuillermo Interesting. Explain why.
 
@TheMaster Well putting aside that none of , nor exist so far
@TheMaster But AFAIK, G Suite addons are all written in GAS anyway. Given it's implicit that the language is GAS then gas-add-on is superfluous in its naming
@TheMaster G Suite covers all the services which you can create add-ons for (docs, gmail, calendar, sheets, etc) and so that in itself is enough to give the information required that it's add-on related. only has 107 questions but it at least has more unique usability than the fairly useless tag
 
@RafaGuillermo not all 's are . In my opinion, should not exist. But should, it is an important distinction. That said, I am ok with going the way here
 
@OlegValter I'll be honest, I don't know exactly what/why we're discussing. doesn't exist
@OlegValter Though I'm running with my thoughts on the matter. In what scenario would a gas-addon not be a gsuite-addon?
 
currently, thanks to a perfect naming idea to confuse the hell out of developers, there are:
- G Suite Add-ons (Drive, Gmail, Calendar)
- Gmail Add-ons
- Editor Add-ons
 
3:03 PM
@RafaGuillermo but gsuite-addons only mean newer addons. developers.google.com/gsuite/add-ons/overview
 
Ah yes.
@TheMaster I knew this would trip me up eventually when it came out
The thing is, regardless of the name, even the editor addons are "g suite" addons as all the editors are part of the G Suite services gsuite.google.com/intl/en_ie/features
 
So, basically, is a superset of all other tags, so it seems natural to make other tags synonyms of it. But: it would be inconsistent to what we are doing now, so I would say - how about expanding this: stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/add-on?
 
My argument here is that is enough of a distinction on its own to be a good sub-tag compared to , and can be very easily encapsulated within it (also it is a horrible idea which I hope that this is the first and last mention of it)
 
@OlegValter Basically everything written in apps script is a addon. So called unpublished addons
 
3:09 PM
@OlegValter Also possible. Though I'm less of a fan of this what are your thoughts on going the same route as ?
 
so:
1. We made GAS triggers a part of [tag:triggers] domain
2. We made GAS Web Apps a part of [tag:web-applications] domain
3 Why do we not making Add-ons a part of the [tag:add-on] domain?
 
@OlegValter I don't think that's a good idea. Yes we did it with triggers. But don't think it's a good idea, when new users add just this tag and not notice it has changed.
 
@TheMaster +1
 
@OlegValter 2. No. We're synonimizing it to the main tag instead. I think this is a better way for consolidation.
 
give me a sec. Wait, two much tagging for one day. So we are synonymizing to our main tag in the end? I see
 
3:12 PM
@OlegValter 1. only partially done.
@OlegValter In all 3 cases, our idea is to split. Make users use [add-on] and [gas] instead of [gas-add-on]. But, it's better to synonimize [gas-add-on] to [gas] instead.
 
@TheMaster well, we know the culprit :) Ok, so - I agree with split tagging.
 
@OlegValter I think now we should have gone the same way with triggers. In any case. The wiki of [triggers] and [add-on] can be edited to include [gas] stuff
 
@TheMaster my update for triggers wiki has been approved quite a while ago afaik. The same can be done to , I agree.
 
@OlegValter Yes. But none of them are reasons for [gas-addon] to be synonymized with [addon] and not [gas]
 
@TheMaster please note that I stand corrected - two votes on the same day going two opposite directions overlapped in my mind. Yes, synonymize with GAS, at least we will have visibility this way
 
3:18 PM
They can still use [add-on] and [gas] even if we [gas-addon]=>[gas]
Alright =>. I believe no issues. Right?
 
@TheMaster no issues.
 
@TheMaster :( no go. Only Ruben, you, and Alan are presently eligible. I will see what I can do in terms of retag (but I doubt that I missed even 3 score on that).
I stand corrected, also @Tanaike
 
3:36 PM
1 message moved from Google apps script Graveyard
Created graveyard. So that we don't repeat today's mistakes like letting old upvoted messages (gas-html-service=>gas-web-app) be seen by late comers and decisions are taken....
2
 
 
7 hours later…
10:41 PM
@TheMaster It's 12:39am, I'm led in bed trying to sleep and God knows why but it comes to me now... How do people even respond? They like, @ then go find the emoji to copy+paste in? You must have never received comment notifications
I should be very much asleep 🙃🔫
 
11:12 PM
@RafaGuillermo 🤣
@MariosKaramanis if you used up your daily quota or simply want a question to be closed quickly, just post a message here of the format: ${reason} ${link}, and someone may take a look (or post a comment "possible duplicate" and a link to relevant question)
 
11:32 PM
@OlegValter thanks! I will know that next time :) I was going to delete my answer anyways.
 
@MariosKaramanis also, if none of us are available, you can go directly to SOCVR room and ask for the question to be closed there (same procedure, we modelled after them). Remind me, why did you delete the question?
 
@OlegValter I don't want to accidentally take credits because of other's person code. It is not fair.
 
@MariosKaramanis there is no shame in that - simply add a clear and visible reference and attribution and you should be good to go. If it is posted on SO, even better, we all license our contributions to be distributed or modified in any way possible. Also your explanations and clarifications count. Ofc it is your call, though :)
 
11:49 PM
@OlegValter okay I am going to keep my answer until and if the question is closed.
 
@MariosKaramanis 👍 The only advice I have is to try to improve and rework the solution you refer to, it's not that I meant the post should only a reference to another :)
 

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