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2:36 AM
8 mins ago, by LinkBerest
However, this question of sorting with an exclusionary starting letter would be a good place to start
^ I am now ashamed of myself for this answer for I have provided a fish without any knowledge
 
2:58 AM
@LinkBerest I am rather offended at you calling me a fish without knowledge. You don't know who I am or what my programming experience is. As I said, I am aware of at least a million ways of solving my own problem, but I come here to find the most pythonic way of solving it and to engage in intellectual discourse with fellow python programmers. I could have googled my way to the link that you sent, but that would defeat the purpose of wanting to also socialise with other human beings.
 
@jigglypuff using that one-liner may or may not be the most pythonic - can you explain what it is doing? if you can then I have provided an idea that someone can use. If you cannot then you just copied and pasted code without understanding where it would or would not be a good idea (there is a lot of places that would not be ideal there are some where it would)
"teach a person to fish ...." is a pretty common quote and again you provided no real MVCE so I was guessing at the use-case (and whether this would be the best method - hence I gave an answer which in itself did not ensure further learning)
 
I thought the "without any knowledge" part was LinkBerest referring to themselves doing the providing a fish without realizing what they did
Honestly though, the whole "pythonic" concept is really not necessarily a helpful thing, and often times very subjective so I avoid that term these days.
 
I think your pedagogical concerns are severly misplaced, I asked exactly as much and as little as I wanted to find out. Your assumption that I won't learn anything simply by copying and pasting one line is incorrect, again, you don't know anything about me or my programming experience and are not in a position to judge my understanding.
 
Nope, I was judging my own answer which did not provide any information but a code-and-paste opportunity
 
I did provide an MVCE and it described perfectly my use case, making up assumptions that I was trying to solving a different problem is another mistake that you made.
It did provide information and now I know more about how the sorted function uses a key to sort elements.
 
3:07 AM
@jigglypuff MVCE = Minimal Reproducible Code Example - you provided expected input & output. This is not a reproducible example (i.e. you did not show what you had tried)
 
I don't have to, I can ask the question how I like, you don't need to answer. And the fact that you answered it just fine proves that there was nothing in the way that I asked the question.
If I wanted my question to be the type of learning opportunity which you had assumed, I would have posted a question on SO and waited for an answer. I asked here because I wanted a quick suggestion.
 
@jigglypuff I guessed based on experience - however there is nothing more productive to this conversation so I'm glad you did pick up something from it but again I don't like giving just copy and paste one-liners (i.e. the insult was to myself for such an answer) and am finished with this course of conversation
 
Next time, don't insult others which you know nothing about
 
Again there is no insult (except maybe to myself) - it was simply a bad answer
 
Fish without experience is the insult
 
3:18 AM
41 mins ago, by LinkBerest
^ I am now ashamed of myself for this answer for I have provided a fish without any knowledge
^ key word is knowledge never pointed to experience (it is a call out to the answer I gave which pointed to a one-liner which was not explained well)
but if you want to be insulted - feel free. I'm done explaining myself
 
Fish without knowledge then is the insult, as you assume that I don't understand how that line works simply because I asked a question
 
But LinkBerest already explained that's not what they meant? Stop this pointless accusation already please.
Also the subject of "Fish without knowledge" was explicitly addressed to be the link given, not you, the person.
 
4:09 AM
@jigglypuff Just in case it's still not perfectly clear, LinkBerest was not insulting you. He was chastising himself for providing you with an answer (the "fish"), but he didn't explain why the answer works, or the logical process that led him to creating the tuple used in the answer. In terms of the metaphor, he neglected to teach you how to catch that particular kind of fish.
However, I gather from your responses that you do understand how that tuple works to ensure that the desired sorting sequence happens. And so you figured out how to "fish" anyway. :)
 
^^ That is what I meant (thanks @PM2Ring for providing better words than I can muster after a long day)
and to end this long day - rbrb all
 
4:26 AM
@LinkBerest Why would you say that your answer is a bad one when it helped me solve my problem? I ask only as much and as little as I want answered, and I got what I wanted. Your assumption that I need more than that is insulting, as it implies I don't understand what the one-liner copy and paste does. I immediately understood what that line does and how it does it. The less you assume about people the better you will get along with them.
I now understand what people say about the SO community and how it treats new users.
Thankfully for @LinkBerest, I am not a new user and will continue using SO to get my questions answered, but will keep an eye out for such condescending behaviour.
 
@jigglypuff Your behavior is also extremely discouraging for those who actually want to provide genuine help - Nothing in what LinkBerest wrote assumes you know more or less than what you claimed. You also do not realise that this is not a private conversation between you and LinkBerest - answers given here (and elsewhere on StackOverflow) may in fact be viewed by less knowledgeable users and they may in fact find those additional context useful. Please cease your continued misplaced accusation.
 
4:55 AM
I think I've made my point. And although I don't want to discourage people from helping others, I highly doubt that this little chat would do so, answering questions is irresistible to us nerds. The take away message here is not to assume too much when somebody asks a question, especially about such as short one like mine.
 
5:15 AM
@jigglypuff there's no need to blow this out of proportion. As others have said most of this is a misunderstanding. As for the rest: you are missing just how many clueless askers come here to have their code written for them. Wanting to teach rather than feed is second nature for the academic types that frequent here (and LinkBerest is one of these)
5
I understand why you felt attacked, but it's not about "poor people being oppressed by toxic culture" or whatever
 
5:41 AM
35 messages moved from Python
 
 
7 hours later…
1:07 PM
@AndrasDeak when people fell attacked, they probably have a very good reason to.
@wim sorry to bother mate. I wanna say I think you're a top-notch person in terms courtesy and correctness. If I ever said or did anything that bothered or offended you I'm really sorry about that. So please, forgive me for it. In any case I want to tell there's no hard feelings on my part, and I appreciate your constructive posture.
 
@bad_coder OK
 
 
2 hours later…
3:30 PM
I mostly moved the discussion here instead of a gallery room to give jigglypuff the possibility to respond. Continuing the argument is not welcome.
 
3:54 PM
@AndrasDeak fine with me. I just woke up to a bunch of pings this morning. Put simply - I'm done with this so no more pings about it please :) (in general not directed directly at Andras)
 
 
5 hours later…
wim
8:57 PM
@bad_coder There wasn't anything that bothered or offended me, but thanks anyway for the kind words.
 
wim
9:12 PM
@CodyGray Hmm, that is interesting because I did not flag anything for moderator attention. Thought I would try and see if it was possible to resolve the issue with ROs directly first (unfortunately it was not)
 
wim
9:29 PM
@CodyGray If you treat each instance of the behavior as a personal conflict that has occurred in isolation, there will probably never be anything actionable. I agree that personality clashes are inevitable (as a professional developer you have to navigate these in career) but I don't agree that such clash should give RO the right to just kick users from chat.
I'm not talking about any particular occurrence, it's a years long grudge this user holds against me. And I am not the only user who finds that particular RO problematic. I think the moderators and the other ROs really need to ask themselves whether davidism is an effective RO or not, is their ROship actually contributing positively to the room or making it worse.
I'll also mention that this post had something like 5 stars which have now been removed (decreasing visibility of the solidarity?). To me that just looks like existing RO are covering up for eachother and unwilling to change. MetaPython was supposed to be the place to discuss these issues.
 
And you're discussing them.
 
wim
@AndrasDeak You're the only one who really discussed significantly and even you said "I don't wish to review the history"
 
yes
 
wim
How are you going to address any complaint if you don't even want to review history
 
9:44 PM
And now you're complaining about starred messages in the meta room of all places. When even in the main room we clear stars a lot.
 
wim
I don't agree with it in the main room either, but I agree with it even less here!
 
And you are welcome to disagree
 
wim
In main room it makes the starboard whatever ROs found interesting, not whatever Python users found interesting. In this room it has made the conversation one-sided and biased.
Since RO are not elected like SO mod, they don't really reflect the views or opinions of the wider users on SE.
And MetaPython appears a farce, or I misunderstood the purpose. I thought it was to discuss and enact policy change but it seems more just for keeping meta-discussion of the Python chat.
@AndrasDeak As someone who was selected relatively recently, do you view that as a problem? In my opinion that means existing ROship is entrenched, and there is no room for people with different views on how the Python room should be managed, to the detriment of the Python chat in general.
 
@wim no, I do not think it is a problem. The room has a culture that originates from history. ROs are consistent with that culture. I disagree that it's to the detriment of the python chat in general.
It would be weird for me to be a part of this if I thought it was harmful
 
wim
I am not chatting in Python chat anymore. Do you think that is to the detriment of Python chat, or makes the room better?
Because that is a direct result of the RO "culture".
 
9:58 PM
@wim I'm not happy to see you go, but this is a local disturbance, not a systemic problem. Any other setup would possibly alienate other users. The situation of your esteemed person cannot be the basis of policymaking.
there's no baseline we can compare to and claim absolute wins and losses in any objective way
In other words, I reject your claim that there's necessarily an alternate culture where everything is the same except we have you on board
 
wim
> Any other setup would possibly alienate other users.
you don't know that because it has not been tried. and you are already alienating users.
 
@wim as far as I know, just the one user
 
wim
Well I tried to show you others, but you said:
Jun 29 at 19:15, by Andras Deak
no need, thank you
 
I didn't want to sidetrack that discussion when you brought up Sebastian Nielsen. But if you insist, he's a long-time help vampire who came to the room not an hour after you brought him up as an example who was supposedly driven away by us.
 
wim
I am aware of several others alienated by this RO. Some have even emailed me personally.
 
10:01 PM
@wim I see
 
wim
I also think this habit of calling users help vampires is not patient, welcoming, inclusive, respectful.
 
@wim okay
 
wim
The very wording sounds like an insult
I never use the word
In jokes such as "garlic" do not help either
It makes you all look cliquey and elitist
 
@wim I believe it is an insult aimed at the behaviour of a person, which they can change any time and by the time they are confronted with that term they have been given more than enough patience and welcoming. It's the last step before shutting the door on someone. The alternative is just...shutting the door on them.
 
wim
You can do that without an insult
 
10:06 PM
No, not really. You can't tell someone "you are acting [like something that's a help vampire but not actually a help vampire] and you have to change [this way, that's not being a help vampire]". Well, you can, but they won't listen. I can of course pretend to be nice, walk on eggshels and then kick them out all the same, with less feedback. I don't think that's doing a service to these users in the long term. But this goes way deep into how we judge the welcome wagon on SO.
It's fundamentally unwelcoming to tell someone they are being a burden.
Either you tell them or you don't. But if you don't, they will stick around being a burden, and then you really start alienating users.
 
wim
I'm not convinced
 
you don't have to be
 
wim
Chat users can just use the ignore feature for burdensome beginners
 
We have greatly differing opinions about how to manage people, so it doesn't shock me if we don't disagree in this either
 
wim
I think the real reason is there are a select bunch that want the Python chat to be a private club, free from beginners
 
10:10 PM
There's nothing wrong with beginners if they are willing to learn. But again, this is the welcome wagon and I don't want to argue about that can of worms again. Done it plenty of times before, doesn't spark joy at all.
 
wim
That select bunch can, IMO, make their own room for their private club and let the Python room just grow and change organically
 
wim
10:23 PM
To change track a bit, is the point of MetaPython to discuss/enact policy change or just to move "noise" out of the main room?
There used to be regular meetings for the former, I thought MetaPython was de-facto replacing that since there hasn't been meetings since. But it may be my own misconception.
 
10:56 PM
@wim well it's meant to be a separate place where people can talk about problems, so it's a tool to move noise out of the main room by design. If I recall correctly this was the intermediate solution to the "we need a feedback channel" solution. Nobody had the time to figure out what and where that channel should be, so we ended up with this room for the time being.
Regular room meetings are still a thing, they are just a bit...irregular
 
wim
I think this room is fine (a good idea) for a feedback channel and I also think it's good to keep such discussion out of main room
 
it wasn't really clear whether the suggestions to have feedback channels should've been anonymous and/or private. That's why I don't personally consider this to be final.
 
wim
ah, that's right.
well, I'm probably in the minority here but I think such things should be public.
 
I think both can make sense depending on the kind of grievance
 
wim
I don't think there should be a feedback channel if the feedback can't enact changes
 
11:05 PM
(heads-up: I'm going to bed now)
 
wim
ok, goodnight!
 

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