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00:02
Yeah, and that's a meaningful difference, but when the money is coming from a practical company like Microsoft and not random VCs who buy hype stories, I'm more inclined to believe they expect a return, especially given the financial terms. Even if you assume that MS is counting on them spending the cash on MS services, those services presumably cost a pretty sizable fraction of that to provide.
I'm pretty firmly convinced it's just FOMO.
But, yeah, Microsoft may also be simply banking on the hype propping up Azure.
The answer could also be, y'know (and I must stress, again, that I have absolutely zero internal knowledge), "we expect that there are going to be a lot of people with VC funding looking to pay a lot of money for AI APIs."
Yup
I take a very cynical view of this, where companies like NVidia, Microsoft, and Google (representative examples of companies at each level of the "stack") are actually going to make a profit off of this Gen AI hype, but only because of smaller/other companies' FOMO.
FWIW having used some of it, some parts are mildly useful
Some parts of generative AI?
00:11
Yeah
Like what?
a recent example of something I'd have struggled to find with a regular search engine was, paraphrasing heavily, was "what the heck does local script=$(echo ~/.vscode-server/bin/*/bin/remote-cli/code(*oc[$i]N)) mean?"
The part where you want to make it clear to people that you absolutely do not care about them, so you use gen AI to generate an email to send them?
What the heck does "searching for special characters that are ignored by typical search engines" have to do with generative AI?
That's just a "here's a nickel, kid, get yourself a better search engine" problem.
It's not even that, you can spell out the words "square brackets"
Although actually, that's not even the relevant bit that you'd need
it's the whole (*oc[$i]N) bit IIRC
but good luck figuring out that you even need to search that
I just needed something to tell me what it's called
which Gemini Advanced did (I didn't try the free version; that may have also worked)
Also, ChatGPT 4o has had a moderate amount of success explaining cryptic crossword clues to me as a beginner.
If you're unfamiliar with cryptics: the clues are almost entirely unsearchable.
Yeah, I am unfamiliar with that.
00:21
also, genAI is "good enough" for summarizing chat conversations in a chatty room to figure out if it's something you should bother reading, though there are some UX improvements that would arguably go some way toward making this less necessary.
Have you tried it something like CHQ?
Here's an example of ChatGPT doing a good job with a cryptic clue: chatgpt.com/share/052d99c5-5504-433c-8d67-19fa74e9a1c5
CHQ doesn't have much human chatter, honestly... you just have to look past everything the bots say :-p
Right, but that takes time.
That's better done with a filter than an LLM :-p
@RyanM Blah. I don't like it.
00:25
Also, for balance, here's ChatGPT doing an absolutely atrocious job with a cryptic clue: chatgpt.com/share/9d68d6ea-a404-4dd8-a41f-a20b41a086d5 (both answers are wrong, and the explanations don't make sense)
@CodyGray the cryptic or the use of ChatGPT?
I meant the cryptic clues, but, really, both.
Yeah, some clues are ... more obtuse than I find reasonable.
"nag" in the sense of a worn-out horse is ... pushing the boundary :-p
I do enjoy the (sadly discontinued) New Yorker cryptics, though. (that one is not from there)
I'm not familiar with those, either.
Of course, I don't really do crosswords. I've done the "normal" ones once or twice, but it's been years ago, and I don't do them routinely.
If I need in-flight entertainment or something, I tend to go more for Sudoku.
Or real work that needs to be done. But I take such short flights that the hassle of pulling out and putting away the laptop, especially since you can't use it like 20 minutes after/before take-off and landing, is hardly worth it.
 
2 hours later…
02:22
wat
 
6 hours later…
07:58
0
Q: Dark theme for meta site

abdurrehmanI'm unable to find dark theme settings on the meta site. Is it intentional? or can we request that as feature. It feels like a day and night while switching between meta and main site.

 
2 hours later…
09:52
0
Q: Editing the question to add the accepted answer

Mike NakisSomeone asks a question. Someone else posts an answer. The OP up-votes and accepts the answer. Then the OP edits their question, adds an "Edit: Solution" section, and copies (the gist of) the accepted answer into the question. I edit the question, and I remove the "Edit: Solution" section. The OP...

 
2 hours later…
12:16
I though link-only answers were supposed to be edited so the relavnt content is in the answer stackoverflow.com/review/suggested-edits/36376727 ?
12:34
0
Q: Missing 'Top users' Link When Browsing by Tag on Stack Overflow

Youcef LAIDANIUsually, when I search for questions by tag, for example, Java: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/java, there used to be a link to Top users. Why is it not showing anymore on StackOverflow? By the way, it's been a long time since I last followed changes on StackOverflow. Is this a new fe...

 
2 hours later…
14:21
the tag description change is becoming a user preference
just like the sticky navbar did
@KevinB Sigh
Linkie?
never mind
0
A: Proposal: Mass-editing tag wikis to restore excerpts

SpencerGUtilizing this script for these edits won’t be necessary. When we discussed the tag hover changes earlier this month, we were clear that the difficulties this introduced to curation activities were not anticipated. Because of this, on August 16th, 2024, we requested more feedback about curation a...

also replied to your post
> We heard from a few moderators, but Zoe, we can’t help but notice that you never responded to our inquiry. As you might imagine, we are a bit surprised by this post
Eh?
14:36
seems a bit weird to be calling out who is contributing (and not) in a private space
but meh
I did respond to the private discussion - in length. I did not respond to the original meta post (I settled for a downvote and letting other people do the arguing because I was low on energy)
But Zoe, we can't help but notice that Stack Overflow Inc has been receiving feedback but acting on its opposite direction. As you might imagine, the community is a bit surprised by their conduct.
On the bright side, I don't need to write an automation script anymore
15:10
I really don't appreciate SE's tone. "Wow, Zoe - you didn't reply in some random private room" - or maybe, you know, you can do less behind closed doors. Also "OMG, nobody told us they didn't like the simplified header" - the thing that you described with, like, one sentence. Mostly saying "the header will be simplified. Look at a picture"
4
I'm also not a fan of how they did the initial announcement. There was overwhelming amount of details that had to be analysed. That apparently SE didn't even feel like explaining in any digestible way. It's one of the reasons I didn't leave any response at the time.
15:27
i don't feel like they really did a great job of explaining why this change is important and what impact they expected it to have
like, i get what they were trying to do, but i think it was more or less a misunderstanding of the purpose of tags, or maybe even wanting tags to be more than they currently are
they aren't there to teach you what a given term is
they're there to organize content, thus it's always going to be better to explain to a viewer what kinds of questions are tagged with a given tag rather than describe the technology it represents
the tagged question list pages could certainly use some help, it'd be neat if it had more information/stats/tools available to the avg user, allowing any given tag to act as a community hub for people interested in that tag
0
Q: Awarding a bounty on closed question

talexHere is my story: I created a question. I added a bounty on it. Question get closed (if it important I closed it as duplicate). Now I'm in a limbo. It is closed, it doesn't have any answers, but stackowerflow tells me to award the bounty in 24 hours. What should I do? What will happens next?

@VLAZ I've been summoned to an even deeper backroom too, so that's fun. About to send ~22 chat messages
@KevinB I don't really think they did any explaining. The announcement reads roughly as "We want to change the buttons on the hover. But also, we've changed the text. If B or C is successful, we'll have to look into changing the description". Which...isn't an explanation. Moreover, they didn't even explain what "success" is. We were just told B is successful. Presumably the success criteria is related to buttons but SE also chose to change the hover description based on that.
15:47
Make that 25
@Zoe-Savethedatadump never mind; I remember now
Spencer is talking about the discussion about excerpts, which I did indeed not respond to, because other people had already done it, and that discussion either started shortly before or shortly after the removal from tag pages, extended on the MSO post about excerpts, and at that point, I had bigger fish to fry than the tag hover specifics
But on the bright side, I don't need to edit 46000 tag wikis
@VLAZ I tried (apparently unsuccessfully) to explain this internally ummm yesterday?
 
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17:16
0
Q: Accessing old Staging Ground beta discussions

KaiaI was not part of the staging ground beta. When I search Meta to see if a discussion has already been started on a feature request for Staging Grounds has been proposed/is in the works, I often see comments with links to discussions in the beta. E.g.: Followed Posts in Staging Ground don't show u...

 
2 hours later…
19:38
(CMs are fixing tagging of issues that have already been fixed, but there aren't any current elections that anyone around can vote in to check it with)
I don't recall that still being possible
but can't be sure
I think the simplest solution is to just hold an election :-)
I'm going to move it to [status-completed] because I honestly have some memory of us completing it. But if that's an error lmk here or in a comment
20:18
there's quite a Slate of [status-completed] tags appearing :)
If there's anything I've learned from this little "in my ample free time" project, it's that we don't claim enough public credit for the work we put in.
...I've actually learned a good number of things from this. Hard to put to words though.
@Progman In future iterations, we are open to the possibility of allowing multiple reviewers to gain rep from the same Staging Ground post, rather than just the final approver, as this is often a collaborative process. — Sasha ♦ 30 secs ago
Oh boy, even more abuse options
@Slate <3
:facepalm:
that totally worked well in docs
20:30
@Zoe-Savethedatadump Ehhh, that's not clearly worse, and possibly incentivizes better behavior...if only the approver can gain rep, then there's an incentive to just approve things.
how many different reviewers can approve with minor edits
to be totally frank, I think that the correct solution is probably unknowable without experimentation
@RyanM in documentation, you were incentivised to do one tiny thing so you technically touched the, uh, document? so votes were funnelled to you instead
well, docs was a little more complicated than that
alas, I'm not sure I trust the company to have the discipline and persistence to iterate.
20:31
the edit had to remain a significant part of the doc for you to continue earning rep
Given that absolutely core features like checks notes the friggin' editor have remained in a half-finished state for years
imagine so docs today, with genai existing
I'm sorry, but as an OpenAI language model, I cannot imagine literal war crimes against information.
@RyanM or even fix bugs in a recently launched project. Ex. inbox
20:47
i mean
they did fix some bugs right
did the old inbox have bugs?
21:11
@KevinB not as many as I'd have hoped they'd have by this point
@KevinB it probably did. I'm too dense to figure out what point you're trying to make by asking this.
fixing something that aint broke, effectively
and in the process producing a more broken result
thanks for explaining. I get your point and I'm frustrated about the brokenness.
arguably the new one has more features... I just don' see any of the new features as improvements.
i'd rather toggle them off
I watn the inbox read when i access one of the pages it's going to link me to, for example. If i get a notification for a question being edited, but i visit that question through other means, it should become read without me neading to click "mark as read"
the old inbox cleared the unread status by simply opening the inbox, i liked that specifically
the feature I like is that individual stuff can be marked as read. but... technically you can achieve the same thing using browser's builtin visited link mechanism. to address stuff that's been visited before, just stick a unique dummy query param in each inbox item link, and then use CSS (can even get fancy with :has())
currently they mark things read using an http request on clicking an item in the inbox
so every time you click to go somewhere in the inbox... it intercepts that click, sends a request, then redirects when the request is done. except, it doesn't work in mobile
or on middle click
or on right click
21:18
@KevinB yep.the middle click failure especially bugs me. I use it all the time.
i would have instead reached for a solution that involves code that runs when you visit a page. check the inbox for matching notifications and mark them read when you visit that page. if you want to be fancy, only mark it read when the #'shed anchor comes in to view if it exists on the page.
also run that code when a tab is re-focused, for things like new comments on a pst you're currently viewing
0
Q: What’s with all the random `compiler-construction` tags?

DúthomhasI am curious. I see a lot of old posts being edited where the major change is removal of the compiler-construction tag. As yet, not one of those old posts has anything to do with compiler construction. Am I missing something? (What’s the story?)

or (spitballing) this: group inbox items by post, and use the query params as a map to parts that changed to IDs or timestamps of the latest change. then you automatically get "unique" urls for browser visited feature, and you can use it to highlight in the page the changed stuff. I'm sure there's flaws with that, but just felt like spitballing.
@NewPosts is this not a burnination?
21:53
my visited links idea is a bust. I think chrome stores visited links locally, and per browser user profile, so if you log into same SO account on multiple chrome profiles on same machine, it's not synced, and similar with logging in on different machines.
22:24
@KevinB the old inbox was pretty unusable for anyone who gets a lot of notifications that need to be addressed, since you'd immediately mark all of them read when you read any of them
The new one ... at least handles that for the last 50
it'd be nice if it did more, but...
user image
4
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
is that on an old post or a new one
new as in new since februrary of... i think 2022?
or was it 2021 when they ran that experiment
had to be pre-gpt
because they used actual ML to solve it rather than just feeding stuff to an LLM
I didn't think it was per-post like that?
--
Wait... this is a feature. This means you can choose to remove the recognized text on your own posts. — Kevin B 2 mins ago
wild... it's an attribute of the post?!
btw, one of those "string formatting" questions was actually about how to sum a list of Decimal instances.
it was, for any post older than when they ran it, it's using the ML based related questions rather than the default
so for all the older questions... the related list is far more useful
22:32
see, e.g., this answer of mine that lacks the recognized flair despite the question being marked as in the collective.
*on avg
@RyanM lol, so it's not retroactively set, i kinda expected that
though
this flair, i was thinking of a different flair
the "This post is recommended by the X collective" bit
i though tthat was an automatic thng that got added to a post when you answered as a RM of that collective
also, "python----The name of the error is'TypeError: not all arguments converted during string formatting'(っ °Д °;)っ" was actually a dupe of how to read inputs as numbers. Experienced Pythonistas will understand fairly quickly how that happened. x.x
python 3 didn't go nearly far enough
the only automatic flair is the recognized flair (as shown on this answer of mine)
i am similarly surprised the usercard flair is per post
how does that logically make sense
I don't think it does, really...
22:37
at most it was done to not retroactively add the flair for posts prior to you being an RM... but...
that doesnt' seem important to me
maybe...
The recommended flair, in fact, you cannot add to your own answers, it seems (which is reasonable)
it's so that the flair will stay even when you are removed
which isn't necessarily great either i guess
considering the reasons one may be removed
ohhh yeah, that's probably why
e.g., for users who were answering as employees at the time but aren't anymore
similar to the ex-mod/staff flair on meta sites
(there's a separate flair for employees, but it's probably reasonable to assume that it's a similar code path/that's what they were thinking at the time)
yup
i still hate the RM flair, but it is what it is

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