« first day (1104 days earlier)      last day (612 days later) » 

12:05 AM
@HenryEcker How/why would that have fixed the problem? The bug is incorrect z-ordering.
@ZoestandswithUkraine Generates, yes, but other queues have audits. They're far more likely to be incorrect than suggested edits.
@gparyani I still have a strong preference for mods being able to curate the audit candidates, including adding and removing audits from the pool.
I don't really care for audits being automatically removed just because someone failed them. A lot of people fail obvious, valid audits.
@NewPosts Why is it always Python users who have so much trouble posting code?
 
@CodyGray have you tried to press Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V with a tail?
 
It's easy, you get the prey to help.
Basically, I mean, you take some C code, and you wrap a thick bunch of garbage around it, constricting it tightly until you suffocate it. Before it is completely suffocated, you get the C code to do the actual work for you.
 
12:43 AM
@CodyGray I'm not convinced it is a layering issue. It looks like one of the issues is a conflict between position on the stacks buttons s-btn and the way they are doing the popover.
The stacks popovers are designed (in theory, at least) to work with other stacks components. As opposed to the manual styles added to the current tag popovers. (I haven't mocked a popover controller to test this theory though)
 
@gparyani I'd rather give mods a "ban audit" button.
 
^^ Ninja'd by Cody on that one
 
...why am I not surprised.
 
1:13 AM
@CodyGray A while ago, I proposed another idea, to provide a clearly-labeled link to a prefilled meta question when one wants to dispute a review audit. It was de facto declined due to concerns about overrunning meta. Is that a valid concern in your view, and what do you think of the suggestion in general?
@ZoestandswithUkraine If by generate you mean created by the system, yes, only the suggested edits queue has generated audits (made using Markov chains). Other queues also have audits, but they're chosen from past posts, not generated by the system strictly speaking.
 
 
2 hours later…
3:12 AM
@gparyani IMHO it's not something meta needs to see, a single mod could adjudicate these easily.
 
@RyanM It needs to be brought to the attention of moderators somehow, though
 
Flags
Technically someone could do this today with custom flags, though it'd be nice to have them in their own category
If people want to discuss it, then it's useful to post on meta, but we don't need Meta to know every time there's a crap review audit, unless we're trying to prove the point that the audit selection system kind of sucks (which is a fair point).
It would be a nontrivial increase in meta posts if people posted even every time they were unjustly suspended by audits, let alone for every single crappy audit.
Especially because even if a mod overturns your audit ban, you're still at increased risk for another one.
 
To be honest, I think there isn't much scope for improving the audit system. Most bad review audits occur not because the system selecting them is poorly designed, but because some posts just slip by community curation and moderation.
What I'm not in favor of, though, is the provision that if one fails a single review audit within 30 days of coming off a previous review suspension, one's re-banned immediately for that single failure. If the chance of running into a bad audit is 10%, the standard system (three failures in a rolling 30-day period) means a 0.1% chance of hitting a wrongly-imposed suspension, but it's three orders of magnitude more likely in that case
 
There's still plenty of scope - like giving mods a way to disqualify audits, letting mods handpick audits, having some known-good suggested-edit audits, having not-complete-gibberish suggested-edit audits (I want an audit generator that code formats every word that's a tag)...
@gparyani That's definitely not the actual system threshold, though.
I'm pretty sure every three-failure ban I've seen is a re-ban. Standard threshold is two failures in not-sure-the-period.
(or maybe it's more complicated, but you can definitely be banned for two failures)
 
@RyanM The same happens with full site suspensions too. Even if your suspension is manually lifted later, the system still soft-blocks you from nominating in moderator elections and still recommends higher-level suspensions to moderators when they send a message.
 
3:26 AM
No, it doesn't. Suspension duration is picked manually by mods in all cases.
(disclaimer: I use a userscript that pretty extensively modifies that page, so it's possible that it does by default...but also, the moderators sending the vast majority of SO mod messages all use it)
 
@RyanM I've seen screenshots floating around in which the system "recommends" suspending a user for a certain length, which the moderator can freely modify
 
@gparyani Yeah, but it's not based on past offenses. It's based on the selected template. Ctrl+F "suspensionDefaultDays" here.
 
55
A: Why was I suspended?

Brad LarsonI wasn't the moderator who suspended you, but they're unable to answer right now, so I'll do my best here: I'll start off by saying that a mistake was made, and we apologize for that. This was the subject of significant internal discussion among moderators, which led to the quick reversal of yo...

> The deletion of those comments triggered an automatic system flag for "too many rude / not constructive comments" on your account due to the deletion of other comments of yours that had been flagged recently. The moderator who responded to that and to the discussion there decided to issue a moderator message warning for what they saw as a pattern of rudeness.
>
> Because you had had another incident in the distant past involving a suspension, the system automatically suggested the application of a 30-day suspension here, which the moderator lowered to a 7-day suspension.
I guess that mod wasn't using the user script
 
Okay, I stand corrected.
I'm just wrong here. It's defaulting to a 365-day suspension when I go to suspend that user.
 
@RyanM I have been suspended for a single failure, though, in the past, for flagging to close an off-topic question that somehow got upvoted. The review suspension durations were different at the time; they've since changed, but to my knowledge the timings for when the system imposes the suspensions (of any length) hasn't changed.
(I asked that under my old Meta.SE - then Meta.SO - account)
@RyanM Huh, so that's why when I speak to mods on other sites about a system that recommends a suspension length, they have no idea what I'm talking about. This whole time it was a user script used primarily on SO only.
 
3:35 AM
No, it's the default behavior
the userscript does it too
 
Or perhaps I misunderstood what they were talking about.
Or it could be something implemented specifically for SO system-side
 
The UI looks like this.
I mostly ignore the contents of that box, so I didn't notice that it was changing based on previous suspensions.
Also because it doesn't suggest a suspension by default, but it does suggest the increasing-length suspensions if you elect to suspend.
 
Ah, that the dialog doesn't explicitly note that it's a recommendation is probably what's confusing them when I speak about it.
 
Also potentially because most network sites outside of SO just issue a lot fewer suspensions/perform a lot fewer mod actions generally.
But yeah I was confused too and I use that all the time.
 
In any case, there should be a mark maintained that allows one to indicate whether the past suspension was incorrect, and only those without the mark should be considered when evaluating those recommendations and the soft-block against election nominations.
This should be completely manual (in case a mod isn't reversing a bad suspension but merely reducing the length of a correct one), and be able to be applied retroactively (in case an investigation by SE ends up running beyond the suspension expiration).
-31
Q: Shouldn't users who are unfairly banned be compensated somehow?

sv_Problem Scenario User gets banned on a site for a week for the first time. User responds to the moderator message appealing the ban. Seeing no response from the mods, user writes to SE staff using the Help Center > Contact page, appealing the ban. A month later, SE opens a ticket for the user in...

TL;DR: User was suspended for 7 days, appealed to SE who three months later found the suspension to be incorrect. They were subsequently suspended for the same reason for 30 days and the mod message saying it was for repeating the same behavior, which was also deemed incorrect by SE after a two-month-long investigation.
@RyanM I'm in favor of the first idea - mods should be able to remove audits from a user's history.
 
3:43 AM
Also from the audit pool
@gparyani Generally we'd just annotate the account with "previous suspension was in error" or something
We generally expect mods to at least skim the acct history before suspending.
(though not read every mod message thread)
Ah, which Tinkeringbell suggested. Good answer.
 
 
1 hour later…
4:59 AM
@HenryEcker Ah, wow. I... don't think I knew that was a thing.
@gparyani Hm, I'd have to think more about it. On first blush, I quite like that suggestion. I am somewhat sympathetic to the concerns about overrunning Meta, but I think we have no valid basis to speculate about how frequently this would occur without actually trying it. Currently, we have no way for users to indicate that an edit is invalid other than coming to Meta, and while it does happen, we're not exactly overrun.
So, giving users a pre-filled template might increase the rate at which they come to Meta to complain, but on the other hand, it would be expected to increase the quality of those complaints, which would be a net positive, in my mind.
I do agree with @RyanM (unsurprisingly) that most of these could be adjudicated by a moderator and dispatched with a single "valid"/"invalid" click (where "invalid" would remove it from the audit pool, whereas "valid" would notify the user who complained that their complaint was invalid and the audit was sustained by a moderator).
I guess that would probably scale better, although the concerns about scale still exist... Overloading moderators is at least as much of a concern, if not more so, than overloading Meta.
And for things like this, while I do fully trust the mod team to make the right decision, especially since audits are supposed to be obvious, not edge cases, I tend to think in general that the more work that can be done by the community, the better, which would be an argument in favor of having Meta adjudicate these.
If nothing else, Meta could reach a consensus, and a moderator could click a button.
That's a lot of words to write just out of a concern that I might accidentally agree with you. :-p
I absolutely, one-hundred-percent agree that there needs to be a way for users to appeal a review suspension, and that it should be done by claiming that specific review tasks were invalid (not just a general "I want my review suspension reviewed/repealed").
I'm not that concerned about the details of how that process would work, whether it would involve mods, or Meta, or CMs, or what. That's an implementation detail that pales in comparison to the primary issue of having such an escalation system for an obviously imperfect system.
Anyway, upvoted your suggestion. I didn't see it, because it was on MSE, which I don't routinely read.
@RyanM That's fixable, with extra effort. You probably know that. You may already point it out yourself in the subsequent messages, which I haven't read yet.
@gparyani Yes, agreed. But how do we fix that? By not having a system automatically select them, but instead by having moderators manually select posts to be audits, both "known good" and "known bad" posts. It would be trivial for us to do this with answers while we're handling NAA flags. We see both types.
The pool doesn't even need to be that large. Multiple people could be shown the exact same audits. In fact, I'd argue that would be better, as it would bring consistency. So the pool only needs to be large enough that the same person doesn't get shown the same audit multiple times. Considering audits aren't all that frequent, and SO gets lots of posts, I don't really think that'd be a huge problem to deal with.
Plus, we could still have the automatic selection algorithm running, just with the ability for mods to review its choices and kick out the ones they didn't want, plus the ability to add in things we think would make good audits but the system doesn't select.
And, you don't have to have only recent posts as audits, so things that mods have historically added to the audit pool could be retained, perhaps with some automatic fuzzing of the date-time-stamp.
@gparyani Are you certain that's how it works? I don't think failing a single audit is ever sufficient to get a ban.
@RyanM Yes, the system will automatically suggest an increased suspension duration if the user has been previously suspended before for that same reason. That's on top of the fact that certain suspension template reasons start out recommending a suspension, whereas others start with just a warning.
 
@CodyGray To be honest, I don't really know (nor do I care to dig any deeper into) how they messed up their styles. But I'm fairly confident it's a stacking context issue and not a "z-index = z-index + 1 and everything is fixed" type issue.
 
I don't use Sam's script to modify that page, I use my own, so I don't know if Sam's script is overriding the default recommendations.
 
5:14 AM
@CodyGray The new system which tells you which audits were responsible for causing an automatic review suspension (which was implemented after my suggestion) should tell you. So pick out a user who was more recently automatically suspended for twice their previous length after an automatic (non-manual) suspension ended, and check for overlap between the culprit audits.
If you look into my history, you'll see a 7-day suspension and 30-day suspension imposed in 2014 after failing single audits, but that was eight years ago
2 hours ago, by gparyani
@RyanM I have been suspended for a single failure, though, in the past, for flagging to close an off-topic question that somehow got upvoted. The review suspension durations were different at the time; they've since changed, but to my knowledge the timings for when the system imposes the suspensions (of any length) hasn't changed.
 
Yeah, I don't want to go back 8 years ago, so looking at anecdata is less useful
 
Which is why I suggested looking into someone else's history who was more recently auto-suspended.
 
Looking... I have a nice page that shows recently failed review audits in all queues.
Unfortunately, of the first 10 that I just looked at, none of the users were suspended.
I mean, right here, I see the same user failed a Close Review audit on Jul 31 and again on Aug 6, but wasn't suspended.
Ah, and again failed a Close Review audit back on Jul 24. And on Jul 17. Still, no auto-suspension. Their last suspension was a manually imposed one, by yours truly, back in March.
Found another user who was auto-suspended on Jul 15 (for 8 days, so not first offense). They just failed a review audit in First Questions 8 hours ago, but weren't suspended as a result.
So... my not-very-scientific conclusion is that the auto-suspension system doesn't have a hair trigger.
 
@CodyGray We leave it in place. But make three other changes that make it less of an issue: 1. make moderators able to remove audits from a user's history so they don't count towards automatic suspensions, 2. remove the provision that the system more stringently imposes automatic suspensions for failing audits within the 30-day period of coming off a previous review suspension
(sorry, I don't know how it replied to the wrong message initially; fixed)
@CodyGray They may have removed the hair trigger, but I'm still certain the system is more sensitive to imposing suspensions in the immediate 30-day period of coming off a previous one.
 
Sometimes, trying to change the reply target doesn't replace the originally chosen target.
I think it's reasonable that someone who was recently suspended should be more likely to get suspended if they make a mistake again within a short period of time.
 
5:23 AM
The display gets fixed after a page refresh, though, most of the time.
 
We don't need a new system feature to allow removing an audit from the history. A moderator can issue a manual suspension that resets the duration.
 
@CodyGray As an alternative, allow mods to indicate that a prior suspension was incorrect, so that the system doesn't treat it as if they recently came off a suspension.
@CodyGray That would still have the same issue of the system being more stringent in the period of coming off the procedural suspension, unless the above suggestion is implemented.
 
Eh, I suppose.
 
Also, this would effectively clear all the prior audit failures. In some cases one audit was bad but the rest were good.
 
I really don't see this as a significant issue.
 
5:38 AM
Actual custom moderator flag: "this question is a waste of time."
 
 
4 hours later…
9:56 AM
-1
Q: How to better ask a question about an SQL query?

PChemGuyWhen seeking help with an SQL query, what can I do to make it easier for people to help me?

 
10:44 AM
0
Q: About time we went off-[script]?

The ThonnuThe original question, Should we go off-[script]? was asked in April 2021, has just under 100 upvotes, and achieved nothing. The script tag now has over 2,200 questions, and over 50 questions have been asked in the tag in the last week alone. Yesterday, I stumbled upon the script tag in this que...

 
@NewPosts Even with the exact same pun?!
Oh, never mind. They read the original. They intentionally re-posted.
 
11:30 AM
86
Q: Recent site instability, major outages – July/August 2022

Josh ZhangOn Friday, July 29th, starting at 13:36 UTC, we experienced a very large surge in traffic to our web servers, indicating a DDoS attack. This surge effectively brought down the Stack Exchange Network sites (including Stack Overflow) and Stack Overflow for Teams (Free, Basic, and Business). Stack O...

No idea what changed recently to make the company push for more transparency on certain problems, but I'm not complaining :p I'm actually pleasantly surprised for once
 
Maybe someone complained on Twitter?
Oh...
> This surge effectively brought down ... Stack Overflow for Teams...
 
-3
Q: how to delete your account on stack overflow

schawnnah jirihow to delete your account on stack overflow

 
@CodyGray shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
It's a step in the right direction
 
Next you'll be telling me that Collectives are good, because having paying customers on SO means they'll demand uptime.
 
oh, no, collectives are still evil
But as long as we can manage them, it's basically free money for stack, which they can funnel into CMs and devs
It's practically a scam, but one that works out exceptionally well for moderation and general site growth. Y'know, at least as long as they don't introduce bugs
 
11:41 AM
How do we manage them, when we can't even edit them?
 
we can edit and delete articles IIRC
I'm seeing a big, red button that says "delete"
Speak of the devil
 
Don't I recognize that name as someone who ran for moderator?
 
Wasn't that back in election 11?
 
I obviously do not remember.
 
Can't find it in 10-13
 
11:47 AM
Ah, no. Don't think so.
 
Down to the 5th election with nothing, and I'm not gonna bother checking the rest :p
Might've withdrawn though
 
Yeah, it wasn't anywhere near that long ago.
 
Actual text of a custom moderator flag on a question: "op asking for answers"
 
lmao
I don't have that problem :p
 
You already found the solution?
 
Oh, yeah. I mapped ctrl-insert
 
Always good to control insertions.
 
11:58 AM
I can never remember those "alternate" shortcuts for cut, copy, and paste.
 
Ctrl-ins and shift-ins
ctrl-shift-c and ctrl-shift-v in certain terminals
Not sure about cut though
 
Yeah, I can handle adding the shift. :-)
 
I recently noticed shift-ins doesn't do what I expected it to
Does some fuckery related to the X secondary clipboard or whatever
I forget which it was, but it's a dumb clipboard that I don't want to use :p
Which was an incredibly annoying discovery, because for the longest time, I blamed GitHub for failing to copy
 
I spent at least 10 minutes today trying to figure out why keyboard shortcuts were not working in a remote session. Turns out, the problem was that the text document I was trying to paste into was marked as read-only, and the editor wouldn't let me edit a read-only document.
 
:p
Should've used Vim
Speaking of Vim, I should be using it right now :p
 
12:04 PM
Did you read the question, though? — robertklep Jul 27 at 18:46
Nope. I skipped the first half of the question and when I saw app.use(bodyParser.json()) I didn't think twice about posting this answer. My bad. — David Callanan Jul 27 at 18:51
 
I'm pretending they're all recommending not to use it.
 
At least one said something like "disable the Copilot extension". At least that's what I noticed from skimming the results.
 
That's related to a VS Code bug, there's still a few that use Copilot to write answers
 
12:22 PM
> Hello, could anyone please flush the edit queue?
I'm looking for the lever now.
 
Oh, don't bother
 
That's one way to fix the queue: send all the suggestions down the toilet
 
Some intern broke it, sorry
 
 
1 hour later…
1:25 PM
SE:/> review edit flush
 
1:50 PM
-1
Q: Where is Desktop Notification option in Stack Overflow?

Armaan VermaWhere is Desktop Notification option in Stack Overflow? I want to get notification even when I am not opening Stack Overflow website or tab?

 
2:07 PM
@CodyGray apparently, this amazing strategy is not used by the majority of pythonistas
 
It's used by all of them.
Python only works because of the C code at its core.
 
 
2 hours later…
3:56 PM
-1
Q: Accounts with no questions... why?

Aarav PrasadI have seen a lot of large accounts, with multiple answers and very high reputation. 95% of them have 0 questions, and even if they do they pertain to the community itself, such as polls. Do these "mature" accounts delete their questions — to perhaps not get embarrassed? — or do they use alt acco...

 
 
5 hours later…
8:59 PM
On today's episode of garbage flags:
> It is not a comment
- a comment flag
What's that even supposed to mean?
 
I love the ones that say "this does not answer the question"
yes, it is a comment, not an answer.
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine maybe they are a fan of Magritte?
 
ce n'est pas un commentaire
2
 
 
1 hour later…
10:12 PM
@ZoestandswithUkraine It's like NAA. But for comments.
 
Only comment if you do not intend to leave a comment.
 

« first day (1104 days earlier)      last day (612 days later) »