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12:02 AM
it is currently the "most relevant" result for many non-equality, so the general approach seems sound, actually.
but attempts like logic non-equality come up blank, and known the name "de morgan's law" isn't helpful either.
stackoverflow.com/questions/2168603/de-morgans-rules-explained is also relevant, except that it's oriented at a more theoretical level rather than writing code
(a lot of this is really cs.se material, but.)
as for accept-begging:whatever we decide is the best guidance for meta.stackoverflow.com/help/someone-answers and whatever rights we assign to new askers, explaining the next steps IMO should be seen as a technical problem, not a social problem. There's no reason the site can't pop up this information.
 
12:23 AM
Adding the demorgans tag could be helpful, thanks for that. Now I just have to see if it's easier to find the next time I need it :)
 
12:49 AM
Why can't low-rep users upvote answers to their own questions?: +15/-17 Why can't low-rep users downvote answers to their own questions?: +33/-7. No surprises there (but a clear example of the reference frames one should use on Meta to get positive feedback) :p
Anyway, at least the answers are consistent on both, and consistently upvoted. The general idea is that voting is not essential to the OP's ability to interact with the site. Unfortunately, they all assume that accepting an answer is somehow essential, and even use that as an argument against allowing voting :(
Oof, the more I dig into this, the less likely it feels that this FR (the broader one of remvoving "accepts" entirely) is going to receive popular support. Not that the recent backlash against restrictions on asking for accepts inspired much confidence in the first place. I'll have to think much harder about how to phrase the FR.
 
1:20 AM
@cigien Knowing that I can do inbookmarks:mine [demorgans-law] for a unique hit is definitely useful to me.
re the FR, I could have sworn I've seen support for it before.
Certainly I'm on your side. The green arrow is strongly in conflict with the claim that we aren't a help desk. OP is not more qualified than anyone else (and in many cases, less qualified) to judge what is the right way to do things.
 
I don't think you'd have network-wide support for this. Though a site-setting that enables or disabled accepted answers would be a great proposal I think. Some sites really value accepted answers (with high correlation to those who have chosen to leave accepted answers pinned)
The biggest thing I see people bring up is how do we handle all of the reputation currently tied to accepted answers.
 
1:39 AM
The problem is at least 2-fold: 1) reputation from answer acceptance has often been abused, 2) users need to have something that is not rep-gated to indicate the answer working to prevent "thanks" comment. VLAZ's proposal for "answer bookmarking" is the closest idea for this.
 
0
Q: Is there a reset on You have reached your question limit

Jansen Lloyd MacabangunI recently maxed the limit of asking questions is there a way to reset it? yes, I deleted some questions since I found out the answer on my own and just confused when asking some Questions it is actually my bad that I didn't self answer, I really wished to reset my limit since I'm in the middle o...

 
@HenryEcker I definitely have no intention of suggesting any retroactive changes to rep. That's going to kill the FR for sure.
Also, yeah, only for SO, not network wide.
 
2:28 AM
(first off, I don't value the complaint of anyone who would still have more than 25k rep after a proposed change, as they lose nothing but imaginary internet points, and if they move a tiny bit down in percentile rankings it's because they prioritized an incentive that was exploitative)
 
I mean... personally I find the extra delete votes to be helpful. But I know that I tend to use more flags and delete votes than the standard user. Also anyone who would be over 35k would really be losing nothing.
It looks like I'd be 19726-ish if all reputation from accepted answers were removed. (I know that's not the proposal but it is interesting to see)
 
0
Q: Why does Stack Overflow not upload pictures?

MHAMMED KI upload the image within the question, but it does not appear "cannot be opened", so I upload the images as posts on Facebook, and then I refer to the image link in the question here in Stack Overflow. Will this problem be resolved and when?

 
2:50 AM
I'm not particularly sympathetic to those complaints either, but users did earn that rep in good faith, so I'm not inclined to suggest a retroactive change.
But I've changed my draft of the PR to just disable rep gain from accepts, instead of disabling accepts entirely. This still allows the OP to indicate that an answer worked for them, without resorting to "thanks" comments. This gets rid of one of the major objections to entirely removing accepts.
Also, the downsides of accepting all appear to result from the rep gain it confers, so the altered FR still addresses those issues. FWIW (and it's probably not much), but this might be an easier for SE to implement.
Rather surprisingly, I'm finding no MSO/MSE posts suggesting/discussing/feature-requesting this, but maybe I'm just not searching properly?
 
3:01 AM
I like Ryan's suggestion to allow all users to vote on their own questions (I'd really prefer both up and down) and get rid of accepted answers all together. They don't add much value IMO and they frequently confuse people as to what it means.
Someone suggested converting all accepts to an upvote and calling it a day. Even something like an upvote from the OP is worth +15 or something (though that wouldn't help with the upvote plz comments...)
 
A recurring theme in these discussions on meta (and also mentioned by other in this room) is that there's value in letting the OP indicate publicly that an answer worked for them. I'm not entirely convinced, but the more I think about it, the more I feel it's not the accept that's the real issue, but the rep gain. If the problem can be solved that way, it would be better, as it's an easier argument to make if it's just about rep.
Ryan's suggestion is good, but it doesn't help with the visible signal. Also, I don't want to muddy the waters by having the FR depend upon another change like this. It's a good idea that has merit on its own, and should be suggested independently.
 
3:21 AM
Fair enough. Let me rephrase it then. My issue with the system is that the green checkmark in no way indicates that one person found it helpful while votes indicate how many people found it helpful. Additionally the acceptance has no concept of time either which can be confusing in some cases. The UI is not designed to indicate this clearly.
I'd prefer something more like a banner with some explanation instead of the checkmark.
 
3:37 AM
Ah, I see. Yeah, the UI could certainly do with improvements.
 
3:50 AM
I still think that whatever the site expects new users to do when they get an answer that works for them, the site should proactively tell them to do it
the rep gain is a problem to me because of the overall incentive structure. Writing answers that are tailored to a broad audience of searchers is largely in conflict with writing answers that satisfy someone who wants the code to work. It also increases the inertia involved in decontextualizing the problem and making it more reference-like.
In a world where closures and hammerers defeat the FGITWers, and the average question allowed to stand is good enough to get to +5 or so, it isn't an issue (except WRT my aesthetic sense). But....
 
 
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6:29 AM
1
Q: Upvote UI Now an Orange Circle?

BryanWhy has the upvote graphic design been changed from a green fill to this orange circle? The green, filled arrow was 100% instantly clear. It was perfect UI/UX. The new orange coloring is a terrible decision. GREEN is the "everything is good here" color. Orange is the "something is wrong or needs...

 
6:58 AM
@cigien meta.stackoverflow.com/a/354621/523612 seems to imply support for your POV.
 
Chat and various SE related pages giving anybody else problems? I'm getting a 407 Proxy Authentication Required somewhat randomly. More often than not.
 
It's working fine for me. Chat, MSO, and SO, at least.
@KarlKnechtel I expect there to be plenty of support from the meta regulars, or users who do a lot of curation. It's the community at large that needs to be convinced.
 
7:46 AM
Ugh
 
8:20 AM
@KarlKnechtel morning! Thanks for pinging me on this - will take a look during the day!
 
8:41 AM
0
Q: Unable to add initial tags using tagulous by post-save signal

GsmInfinity I have a question about my Stack Overflow post: Unable to add initial tags using tagulous by post-save signal

 
9:36 AM
I wish I could search for questions that don't have a specific tag. It would help me a lot with gathering statistics, and possibly with identifying retagging candidates.
also: based on the documentation, I expected created:1y to mean "created between this date in 2021 and yesterday", but it apparently actually means "created during 2021".
 
@KarlKnechtel Doesn't -[tagname] work?
 
10:06 AM
test
test2
 
Seems to work now
I think SE switched over to the new caching thing or switched it off. And for some reason I had some of the old entries cached in my DNS, so I was getting weird errors
 
-2
Q: Ain't mentioning company name in question, a spam?

novice in DotNetHow is this question not a spam? It is advertising on Brilliant Solutions Inc. from my perspective. But is it allowed on stackoverflow to mention our company's name? Thanks in advance

 
@E_net4-MrDownvoter it does, good call.
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/python-3.x+-python

That's... rather more than I hoped.
(there are only a few hundred tagged as 2.x and not generically)
 
10:22 AM
ooof...a bunch with 5 tags, too...
 
@KarlKnechtel The date operators are a bit weird. I'd recommend to always be explicit and use the range .. in order to know what you're querying. If you want "created over the last month" (2022-06-04 to now) then created:..1m would do that. While created:1m will give you "created last month" (2022-06-01 to 2022-06-30).
If you do want "last month" then I'd just write it out explicitly: created:2022-06-01..2022-06-30 - it's a bit more typing but as a bonus, the query won't change if you load it again later.
Well, unless that's what you do want, I suppose.
 
@NewPosts I see my flag handling is on Meta again...
@VLAZ I think you mean created:1m.. - as in, "created from 1 month ago forward". Your query is "created 1 month ago or earlier."
 
@RyanM Erm, yeah, you're right
But to answer the question: no, simply mentioning a company's name isn't spam. One could ask a question about Microsoft without it being spam...even if they were actually Bill Gates looking to commit some petty theft for some reason (although then it'd be off-topic on Law.SE, because they don't give legal advice). It must also have a promotional purpose. — Ryan M ♦ 3 mins ago
 
10:43 AM
...it would also be off-topic on Stack Overflow.
 
11:05 AM
stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/python-2.x+python-3.x Per established convention, all of these questions should have , and should not have either or . Even questions explicitly about 2-to-3 migration don't have a real excuse IMO.
 
Oh, wait, I read your message wrong.
I thought you were saying that they should have in addition to 2.x/3.x
 
11:26 AM
yeah. some of them have [tag:python] already, others need it added; the version-specific tags should be removed.
Although it seems there is some dissent. there's [python-2to3] which is specifically about a migration tool, and offers the guidance that questions about comparing 2.x to 3.x... should use both of those tags instead.
(I still think they should just be plain ol Python. The version split was in my mind always supposed to be a temporary measure; a shame that migration was as rocky for some as it was.)
 
 
3 hours later…
2:29 PM
-3
Q: Redis AWS Elasticache with spring boot application

Sri Harsha I have a question about my Stack Overflow post: Elasticache with Redis in spring boot

 
3:23 PM
0
Q: Why are the "Top Questions" list and "All Questions" list at disjoint locations in the nav scheme?

crosen9999TLDR: Why doesn't the UX for the two different top level question filters look like this: FULL VERSION: Stack Overflow provides two separate high level filter options for question lists: "Top Questions", and "All Questions." These options are available under two different points within the site...

 
 
2 hours later…
5:05 PM
-1
Q: Logical Expressions JavaScript

DavyI have been working on a javascript program and I saw this code below and it's quite confusing.. I am hoping for an explanation of what it means function expect(argument) { this.eat(argument) || this.unexpected(); } the question on the logical expression this.eat(argument) || this.undefined(...

 
 
1 hour later…
6:25 PM
 
 
3 hours later…
9:23 PM
0
Q: Disable reputation earned from having an answer accepted

cigienThe OP of a question has the ability to mark one of the answers to their question as "accepted". This is a publicly visible signal to everyone else that the answer worked for the OP. However, accepting an answer also gives the author of the answer +15 reputation. There's no clear benefit to the s...

 
@NewPosts we will forever be grateful for your sacrifice, @cigien
 
Uh oh, that sounds ominous ;)
 
@cigien Did you mean "Helping OP is incidental to the goal" not coincidental? I would've just edited but they both mean something valid.
 
when you will be crucified on the altar of reputation, @cigien, I hope you will find it soothing to know that there are those who support the idea :)
 
@HenryEcker Oops, that's right, I meant incidental. Go ahead and edit it, since you just made an edit. Thanks.
 
9:32 PM
dang it, @HenryEcker, I was just about to link to the exact same Q&A :)
 
Okay. Edits made =)
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Well now it's your turn I was just about to link to that list XD
 
I hope it will be positively received (although I don't think SE has the guts to follow up on it even if so [although one never knows, I did not expect them to unpin answers either])
@HenryEcker xD
 
I like the proposal a fair amount. I don't know that it's going to be well received on a wider scale... I also don't know technically how it works. They do rep "recalculations" (like after a suspension ending) I don't know how feasible accepts being worth different values based on when they were cast is on their side.
To be clear I know it's possible but that's true of most things. It's always a matter of time and effort.
 
@HenryEcker I'm not sure I follow the part about the technical difficulty. Do you mean because of the "no retroactive rep removal" bit?
 
The I like the proposal and the "well received" parts was just a general comments. Then the rest was yes about the no retroactive rep removal piece.
 
9:43 PM
if done non-retroactively, it should be very limited in terms of actual impact (and hopefully address the fears of losing the "hard-earned" unicorn points). I am both paws with this proposal. Hope to think up something substantial to add so as I can post an answer in support this week.
 
Ah, I see. Yeah, I'm certainly not committed to it, and if it comes down to that, I'll happily dump the "no retroactive" bit. I just don't want to make the proposal unappetizing, given that it's going to be an uphill battle at best, anyway.
 
@HenryEcker AFAIK reputation is not a set value or even a series of diffs. They actually recalculate the value periodically. If accepts before X datetime earn +15/+2 and accepts after X datetime earn +0/+0 is that compatible with the existing checks. Was all I was wondering.
 
@cigien I emphasized the significance of the proposal a little bit - hope you don't mind (feel free to roll back, ofc), IMO, it should be a bit more assertive about it being beneficial :)
@cigien I fully agree with you that it should not be retroactive - any suggestion that it should be is going to tank the proposal on the spot. Users get very defensivee about losing unicorn points as we all experienced
 
No, not at all, please go ahead and make changes you feel would improve it.
 
Trying to tread veeeery carefully here :) Really want to see it positively received
in any case, there is going to be hell of a controversy, though, I am sure of it
hmm, let's see if "they tend to, quite reasonably, accept the first of these answers" can be substantiated with hard data. Sounds plausible with SEDE, brb
 
9:56 PM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine That would be lovely, but it's way beyond my abilities to do at least. However, the "equivalent answers" bit is important, and I'm not sure that's queryable.
 
@cigien I am making one right now, let's see how it goes - looks doable so far (at least in terms of "where the first answer posted is the accepted answer). Definitely "equivalent answers" is not something that's possible to query, though, yeah
At least maybe the query will show that the claim is utterly wrong and should not be made - that will be already a plus. But my gut feeling is that it is a correct observation.
 
Yeah, it would be great to know either way. Looking forward to the results.
 
The outcome will likely differ depending on the experience users have on the site. Something tells me that new users are more likely to accept the first answer on their post than established users, but dunno
 
10:10 PM
It'd be nice to know how many acceptances are from users who could not upvote (rep < 15 at the time of accepting) though I don't think that's an easy task on SEDE.
 
that looks like an easier task than what I just embarked on, honestly. I am trying to squeeze all juices out of SEDE to actually complete in time for even the basis of the query.
even a simplest of joins seems to choke it out these days
> OPs shouldn't be allowed to edit their own posts?
I have an idea about that, but I don't want to be crucified :)
 
10:31 PM
heh, the hard part is "finish in time when constraining to "first answer posted""
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Classic "slippery slope" argument. I was expecting more sophisticated arguments than that, to be honest.
 
@cigien well, I can understand the argument about this making the acceptance meaningless. The problem is... I definitely believe that making it meaningless is actually a good thing in the grand scheme of things.
 
But most posts on MSO and MSE about the subject claim that the whole point of OPs being able to accept an answer is the signal to other users. This changes none of that.
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Hmm, interesting. I definitely think OP's should be able to edit their own posts.
 
@cigien the problem is, of course, that deep down it's not about signal to other users as we've seen from the mess with comments to accept / vote
@cigien ah, that just ties to my outlandish idea that, were queues better designed, no edit (apart from mods) should be done without peer review of at least one other person
 
Yeah, exactly. But people rarely come out and admit that it's about the rep. I wonder how a proposal that suggests keeping the +15, but removing the checkmark, would fare :)
 
10:42 PM
I have a suspicion that it would fare better :)
on SO that is. Unlikely to fair well network-wide. Some sites have a strong case for having acceptance [although I think they deserve a whole other feature specifically designed to that use case]
in the meantime - made good progress on the query, seems like it is possible after all
 
Ok, it's at +7/-7 now, with the only stated objection being a fairly tenuous slippery-slope argument. About what I expected, really (though I was expecting more counter arguments).
 
give it time, much more fun is going to ensue :) Depends on your definition of fun, though
 
I guess I'll just have to lean in to my masochistic tendencies in order to enjoy this one ;)
 
definitely :) no one touches reputation and gets out unscathed - enjoy the ride...
 
11:49 PM
ok... I hope I did not botch it up: data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/1613032
as usual, it is limited to undeleted posts, but oh well
hmmm, no, damn it, wrong version
 

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