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5:04 AM
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Q: Please reopen this question that was improved by the community

jpmc26A couple years ago, this question was discussed on Meta. As a result, substantial improvements were made to its content, and the dominant community opinion seems to be that it's now good enough to leave open. It's a common enough problem that can be a little hard to diagnose (especially for begin...

 
 
3 hours later…
8:10 AM
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Q: Top Questions list (homepage) showing last editor instead of post author

grahamj42I was surprised to see this beginner's question VBA acsess code need help how can i do (do while utill the cell = 0) listed as having an author with 10k rep. In fact, the 10k rep user had edited the post from a new user. The post appears correct in the full questions list.

 
 
3 hours later…
10:49 AM
@NewPosts IMO, it was rightfully closd as no repro. Score 1.5K+ or not, this is still a "this is not valid JSON" question that we routinely close as "typo". If we really need to preserve value here, it should be a dupe of "what is valid JSON?"
one of the possible dupe targets:
559
Q: What is JSON and what is it used for?

BenI've looked on Wikipedia and Googled it and read the official documentation, but I still haven't got to the point where I really understand what JSON is, and why I'd use it. I have been building applications using PHP, MySQL and JavaScript / HTML for a while, and if JSON can do something to make ...

at least 3 answers there deal with what a valid JSON value is... Which is way more educational than the loads of "use this in Python that has nothing to do with the core issue" we got in the prominent Q&A in question.
That said, it needs some cleanup
there's also one of the most sexist valid posts I've seen in my life, but oh well :)
 
11:59 AM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine In this case, though, the reason patently doesn't apply: "this one was resolved in a way less likely to help future readers" is clearly not true based on the score.
the guiding principle should be "is this question useful to people other than the asker?"
this clearly passes that test
 
12:15 PM
Frankly, I am reluctant to determine "not caused by a typo" purely based on score, especially when the Q&A is that old with the standards shifting over the years. This Q&A, IMO, is still at the core a typo, and not a fundamental misunderstanding of how JSON works. It also has nothing to do with Python. I bet that upvotes here come from users landing here because they want to know how to read JSON files in Python
(which is indicated by the ridiculously high score on answers that do not address the issue at all)
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine On an unrelated note this is fun. IIRC, there is a userscript for it already but still - I'm quite amused at the images that don't look very...contrasting in high contrast mode.
 
Hmmm, could be.
 
@VLAZ oh, yeah, that - apparently they cut it from the spec - I recognize the image - it's barely readable in dark mode
I'd consider the Q&A under discussion resolved in a useful manner if it was edited to be about the error and why it happens, but it would invalidate most of the answers there. Although most are invalid in the first place... And can't be NAA'd
 
If there's a coherent proposal for how to fix it with a good argument as to why the answers were never valid in the first place, maybe they could be deleted
but also it is 5:30 in the morning and I should have been asleep at least an hour ago.
So I have not actually looked at whether they were in fact sufficiently invalid to be deleted.
 
@RyanM I'd say maybe 5 hours ago but...you do you.
Good night morning!
 
12:32 PM
@RyanM I'd love to, but there seems to be a need for investigation first. I am looking at the revision history right now, and it seems like at one point, the answers that do not address the issue could be considered valid (as per question as asked), but rev 13 introduced a traceback and made it explicitly about the invalid JSON
the original asked:
> I write this script but it only print all the text.
> How can I parse the file and extract single values?
which makes sense to be answered as "you read the JSON file like X and access values like Y"
the OP themselves never asked about the typo, it seems, and it, indeed, might've been a typo on their part when copying the JSON to SO
note that "it only prints all the text" - it implies that the original JSON is valid
then the community decided to "improve" the question as I now see - and made it explicitly a typo question that needs to be closed as such and invalidated a bunch of answers in the process
the more I read the revisions, the more I start to think that the community at large did a disservice to the question
 
12:50 PM
In fact, I am starting to think that was it not edited, it wouldn't have been a typo question at all. Granted, not a very good question, but its previous state explains both the unusually high score and seemingly irrelevant answers. Dang it.
have a good night morning's sleep, @RyanM! You might find a pleasant plot twist in the morning :)
or not as pleasant given that I have no idea how to handle this Q&A in light of the circumstances outlined above
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Please don't give diamond moderators nightmares about how to handle Q&As before sleep. It's against the CoC.
 
"we are writing in regards to your account on Stack Overflow. Please refrain from giving moderators nightmares about handling Q&As in the future."
"We're writing in reference to your Stack Overflow account. Please refrain from giving moderators nightmares about handling Q&As in the future."
better :)
 
 
1 hour later…
2:28 PM
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Q: What flag to use for questions having a link to a photo of the real question?

justanotherguyTime and again, I come across questions like this. What I do not understand is what flag am I to use. I usually go with very low quality, and at times it gets accepted too (guess that makes it okayish). Although I'd like to know what flag is usually suggested for such questions.

 
 
3 hours later…
5:39 PM
@NewPosts Just for the record, if anyone cares, I immediately wanted to vote to reopen that question as it had been closed via SOCVR after it had been discussed on Meta. I don't have much of an opinion on whether it should be closed, or not. I just saw a high score, lots of views, and that the question isn't obviously crap/off-topic, so I couldn't see a compelling reason to keep it closed.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine That doesn't seem like a good enough dupe target. Honestly, I would rather edit the question so that it can become the canonical for "what is valid JSON? Why isn't XYZ valid?"
This is the fifth time the question has been closed, which might be a Stack Overflow record.
the question is completely transformed from the original version, and people seem to have cared a lot about putting that kind of love into it (including my most recent tweaks)
 
Regardless of the stats, I still have a problem with the title. People coming up from the search engine won't expect that that question is specifically caused by [] and {} typo, not other causes.
 
the problem I currently have with the state of the question (after diving deep into the revision history) is that subsequent edits made it about the typo when it never was about that in the first place. The edits also invalidates answers that do not address the "typo" part, and now the Q&A is a mess.
 
5:55 PM
@KarlKnechtel I got curious. Apparently there is one question with 16 closures, one with 10 then one with 7, and then few with 6 and 5. So it's in the top 5, technically.
2
The 16 might have been a bug. Apparently Sam opened and closed it multiple times. In the same minute.
 
or a test of one of the SOMU userscripts
 
Then I believe it needs the community to make up their mind on what should the question be, and then clean up. If it's about parsing JSON, then edit the title and just use a valid JSON, and clean up the answers. If it is about the typo, then... I dunno, close it as such?
 
agreed, but either option seems to lead to a huge mess, IMO, taking into account the history of the Q&A. I can see it becoming a valid question about JSONDecodeError and what that entails (invalid JSON), but that would finish off valid answers made before it was made about that. Right now, the question actually contains 3 unrelated issues: invalid JSON, "how to parse files with JSON", and "how to read properties on the parsed object"
 
... I guess I'll vote the question community as unclear then... :/
 
6:12 PM
the majority of upvotes it got were before the revisions 13-14 in March 2019
so I have a hard time believing that users landed on the question is search of what the error means or what is valid JSON
* because there was no mention of the error before that
the OP claimed the code worked
the majority of downvotes, however...:
it might also be related to the discussion that happened, of course, causing the Meta Effect
 
Yes, it makes sense for such a common task about parsing JSON file to help many and get upvoted rather than the typo. It also makes sense that people upvoted the question and answers, regardless the typo in the question, because the core question was helpful for them.
 
exactly - and it is now my view that the edits actually made the question less useful for other users and also introduced the mess with the answers since without reading the revision history, it is entirely unclear why on earth the answers completely gloss over the glaring mistake of the OP (which it turns out they never claimed they made) and go on listing ways of parsing JSON files
another edit to the top voted and accepted answer also indicates the original situation was different. Here is how the note about invalid JSON looked like initially:
> I think what Ignacio is saying is that your json file is incorrect.
Here is what it ended up being:
> Your data is not valid JSON format.
 
6:30 PM
Post an answer detailing this to convince the community and mods :)
at least if it's on my site, I'll gladly clean them up as a mod...
 
now I need to understand what to champion :(
I wish I never opened the revision history
 
The votes on the answers to both meta questions seems odd to me. Tim's answer on the older one is implying that the question is fine, while Cerbrus's answer on the newer one is saying it's not. Yet, both answers are highly upvoted, with nearly no downvotes. Am I misunderstanding one, or both, of the answers? They look like they're saying opposite things. Of course, the voter set on both questions could be mutually exclusive, but that seems unlikely.
 
-1
Q: Redirect users to the right site on offtopic questions

Josu GoñiI've just found this question searching for a written form of the Android documentation. It contains useful information although I understand it is offtopic. It says the following: Questions asking us to recommend or find a tool, library or favorite off-site resource are off-topic for Stack Over...

 
@cigien it looks like the mess directly stems from the current schizophrenic state of the question
@NewPosts speaking of the workshopped Q&A, @HenryEcker
 
I wrote a proposal on the (new) meta question. The schizophrenia appears to be between "question about how to read JSON from a file" and "question about what is valid JSON syntax".
As it happens, there is already a mostly-good canonical for how to read JSON from a file... that happens to have a JSON syntax problem awkwardly tacked on. To me, the solution seems obvious.
 
6:37 PM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine The question has not been edited significantly since the meta answers were posted, afaict. So the votes all came in for the current state of the question.
 
It's entirely possible that meta.SO today has a different mindset than meta.SO of the previous closure round
 
@cigien ah, sorry, I was unclear - I didn't refer to the votes on Meta responses, just as to why Cerbrus's response (as well as my comment) got positive response despite being on the opposite side of the original discussion. I assume folks go look at the current state of the question and conclude that yes, it should be closed as a typo.
and those involved in the original discussion had more context about what the question is about
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine The original question is 12 years old; OP seems to have walked away satisfied (judging by OP's own deleted "Ok I have resolved. Thanks at all." answer); and the question is barely recognizable as what was originally typed. I don't think OP's original authorial intent is relevant at this point. Or else I don't understand what you mean about the revision history, other than having a headache from there being a long argument
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine also, if it hasn't been mentioned, probably need an additional note that there's always a possibility that there's no suitable SE site yet...
 
@KarlKnechtel Yes, that's certainly possible. That would mean that looking at scores on meta posts to determine consensus is completely useless, and I don't know of any other way to determine it.
 
6:43 PM
@KarlKnechtel nah, I am not speaking for the authorial intent here. Until I opened the revision history, it looked clear-cut as hell to me: it's a typo question, it should be closed as such or converted to a canonical about "what is valid JSON", or closed against one such if it already exists. Then I opened the revision history and found out that for most of the entirety of its existence it was about parsing JSON files...
 
I don't think it means that. I think it just means that consensus changes over time, perhaps as a result of people being moved by persuasive arguments. It has been over 3 years since the previous meta question, after all.
 
@AndrewT. yeah, definitely, sometimes there is just no place for a question anywhere
does anyone else get a 500 error when trying to VTC this for Cross Validated?
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine right, so. Because of the voting patterns and what answers we ended up with, it is a question about valid JSON, and I dispute that it matters what it looked like for most of its history. We do have a canonical about parsing JSON files; we don't otherwise (AFAICT) have a canonical about JSON validity; so the remaining option is to convert this to said canonical.
 
@KarlKnechtel I don't fully agree that the history should be disregarded (the edits could've turned out well-intentional, but ultimately harmful), but I don't have a preference in which way it should go. If it can be made about what JSONDecodeError means, I'll be ok with that, that's one option. That said, we are going to lose value in removing unrelated answers (or make the Q&A even more scizophrenic). The other option is to request a merge with the canonical on parsing JSON files.
 
All of that said, there's something in Cerberus' answer that gnaws at me.
> The question doesn't require any more answers, so what reason would there be for this question to need to be re-opened?
The thing is, **almost every** established canonical doesn't really require more answers. They are **very often** bait for new users to add a duplicate, or some low-quality rambling on the topic of the original question, which is why we Protect(TM) them. But we generally don't close them, even though an experienced user **still** probably wouldn't have anything new to add that justifies a completel
 
6:49 PM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine basically, this is why I said I should've never opened the history. We are currently choosing between doing nothing, and trying to find a lesser evil between 3 non-ideal options.
@KarlKnechtel no markdown in multiline chat :)
 
Canonical need wiki lock instead :p
 
>ultimately harmful edits
At the time that OP posted the "thanks" answer (subsequently converted to comment), the question was at revision **2**.
>losing value from answers
I think there are answers on both questions that need to move to the other, rather than being removed.
>no markdown in multiline chat
I'm aware; I'm relying on people to parse it mentally
 
or via scripts :) one such is on my backlog for months at this point. So annoying that chat can't handle a single newline in a message
 
@VLAZ Interesting. Please feel free to comment on my answer to the meta question so others can see
also interesting that stackoverflow.com/q/20002503 - one of the most important canonicals for - is in the 5-closure clulb
 
"ultimately harmful edits" was just an aside for a general case, I just don't think that they are good all the time. In this case they certainly improved the question quality but also apparently made it less useful to those who looked for "how to parse JSON files" and to those who looked for "why parsing fails?". So, it looks like some further work needs to be done here, the question is which. Making it about JSONDecodeError sounds like an interesting idea. Since @RyanM...
...volunteered to help in case there is a good argument to go either way to get the Q&A cleaned up, we should settle on something, I think, and discuss further once they get back.
I have no apparent objections to making it all about JSONDecodeError and its causes
other than losing value during cleanup, but that can be addressed.
 
7:01 PM
Well... I prefer to make the least conflict to existing answers, thus revert to parsing JSON files, provide a valid JSON, clean up, and optionally close as a dupe to the canonical (if exists)...
 
and that is also a valid option, and indeed, is likely to cause much less friction. This is why it's a nightmare
 
that would mean there is no home for an answer with a score of over +2000. I hardly consider that "low friction"
 
I suppose it does answer the question as originally asked:
> With data, you can now also find values like so:

data["maps"][0]["id"]
data["masks"]["id"]
data["om_points"]
as I said, every option has pros and cons here...
 
alternately, we could perform surgery on that one to remove the now-unrelated part. But then we need to go back to something much more like the original form of the question. And now this becomes a better canonical for "how to parse json files" than the current one, so if anything the duplicate closure would go the other way. And then we start at ground zero for JSON format errors.
(aside from "the json is empty", which is well covered)
 
@KarlKnechtel sure, by "clean up", I don't mean all-or-nothing deletion, just remove all references to the typo.
 
7:06 PM
ah. so, just the second half of my feedback applies then :)
 
and of course, anyone is then free to create canonical for JSON validity, or JSONDecodeError if they want :p
 
Well, you see, the last time I tried to do that sort of thing on my own initiative, it was also kinda controversial and stressful (meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/418516)
 
I wonder if we can just merge them together and remove all references to the invalid JSON from the answers to create a big canonical on parsing JSON files. Need a diamond for that, though.
 
and I think we already have some excellent content for such a canonical
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine if I were a mod on SO...
 
7:10 PM
I don't want to lose discussion of the invalid JSON, because "using [] instead of {} or vice-versa" is a really likely way to mess up when creating hand-rolled JSON, and because it helps solve a practical problem (how do I use this specific kind of error message to find the problem?).
 
@AndrewT. heh, yeah. Let's see what @RyanM has to say about the development regarding this mess then [ good morning, hope the headache that gives you is not too horrible... ].
 
(What time zone is Ryan in?)
 
was 5 AM 7 hours ago, but I don't think there's any rush
 
I suspect a mod is not going to take an action like merging (or any mod-only action), unless there's strong support for it on meta.
 
Yeah, so someone needs to post a meta answer there...
 
7:14 PM
So an answer advocating for a merge would be a good idea, and hopefully it'll get enough votes.
 
likely - I'd love to workshop it further, though, before committing to doing anything on meta regarding it. So, 3 options: leave it be; merge into a super-canonical on JSON parsing; rewrite it into a canonical on invalid JSON (specifically, about circumstances when JSONDecodeError happens). Correct?
 
as of per discussion on here, yes. So... 3 individual answer then ;p
 
yay :) Since I proposed merging, I'll draft up an answer during the evening, I suppose
 
We should just delete JSON. So we stop getting questions about it.
 
oh, finally, a sensible option! xD
 
7:17 PM
>rewrite it into a canonical on invalid JSON
my proposal (which is already represented in an answer there) is somewhat more in-depth than that
 
Cerbrus is already advocating for option 1 (at least implicitly), and Karl is advocating for option 3, so just an answer for merging is needed.
 
And let proposals hold a battle to the death.
 
@VLAZ There was a time where I would have responded to this with a snarky or pithy comment about XML. But there are really are nicer-to-work with alternatives to JSON now, like TOML, so.
 
oh, no, we are about to start a discussion on what's worse, JSON, YAML, or TOML :)
 
I'm convinced there is no format simple enough that it wouldn't be misused and misunderstood.
 
7:23 PM
true (or is that True?)
 
7:55 PM
phew
I'll regret proposing this :)
 
You've written it well and I can't even disagree with your reasoning, I just don't want to lose valuable content.
 
neither do I - at least we can reasonably discuss all this :)
 
that said, it's not exactly impossible to re-create... just, if I start over with a new vision I can already predict how it will go poorly
based on prior experience
 
if the merge wins out, then I think we can workshop a new canonical on JSONDecodeError. But it's hard to get those things off the ground these days.
 
what I'd love is something like "split the JSON-error content out of the old answers and migrate them to a new question", but that seems like it should be e.g. Justin Peel's prerogative, not mine or any mod's
 
8:04 PM
oh, yes, the ability for at least mods to pick and choose what they want to send where would greatly help, but as always with SO, it's all or nothing
 
it wasn't easy to get that kind of thing off the ground in 2010 either - it takes time for votes to accumulate. But at least there was less negativity then towards attempts to use the site more creatively.
any suggestions for where to draft a Q&A without actually publishing it on Stack Overflow? I could use my blog but maybe there is something better
 
heh, yeah, starting off canonicals is not an easy task
@KarlKnechtel we had a good experience with drafting in a GitHub repository lately as one option that comes to mind
Teams instance is one possible venue too
 
Interesting. Does one person make a new repo with a .md and then others use the issue tracker? or just what
 
yea, someone spearheads the repo, then others use PRs for edits, issues for general discussions (GH also has standalone "discussions" these days too, but I barely used them, so dunno) - if everyone involved is at least relatively proficient with Git and has experience using GH as remote, works like a charm (at least from my POV).
 
Sounds good. I have some errands, but I could try leading that this evening (EDT)
 
8:16 PM
oki, sure, definitely no rush - I'll be asleep by that point (it's 11:15 PM in my timezone right now), but can jump in tomorrow
 
8:52 PM
0
Q: Can you embed a Stackblitz environment in a StackOverflow question? Should you?

Jeremy KolassaI've seen a lot of questions about embedding StackOverflow questions on other websites, but I'm thinking the other way around. Is it possible to embed, say, a Stackblitz instance inside a question, so people can see directly the code I'm experimenting with. I thought it just might be easier, but ...

 
9:34 PM
0
Q: What is the "pending edit" in the review queue?

hamagustI recently got enough privilege/reputation to review posts. Considering all the help I got from SO, I am honored for such a role, and I have been motivated at first in doing reviews. But I got stuck in full edit queue-related issue already discussed a lot here. And have not reviewed all 80 questi...

 
@VLAZ I feel this argument could be used against Stack Snippets in general though... The point is to have something that demonstrated how it works. So while I agree this is by no means necessary and it's quite possible there are scenarios where this is nice to have.
Additionally, we've had issues with some of the alternative frameworks being recognised as valid code (like PUG for example). It's helpful too to be able to define the technology being used and easily indicate that the solution works. Especially for answers that recommend adding a framework to the stack. Being able to demonstrate how much "easier" something is and that it does indeed still work has some nontrivial value.
^^ There's certainly a separate conversation about the value of just adding more and more frameworks to make things "easier" while adding 1000s of lines of unneeded code, but that's a different issue....
 
Misc annoyance about the interface: I can click the score on a question to get an upvote/downvote breakdown, but it seems that I must refresh the page to undo this.
 
@KevinB The ultimate answer. I should just post that on every error Q&A and I'll get tons of rep
@NewPosts FWIW I actually think a popup like Suggested Edit queue full when clicking the "flag" button on a post makes more sense than after trying to flag at the end of the flag dialogue. It's a shame it got derailed by people talking about suggested edits....
@RyanM meh it seemed a reasonable migration at first glance. Though I agree with you I probably would have just left it deleted
@NewPosts That's just too much effort...
@RyanM What time do you typically need to get up?
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Again, not discrediting the value of an perfect world scenario. However, in practice, people don't do a good job of using the migration feature or even when they suggest other sites in the comments it's frequently done incorrectly.... =/
@KarlKnechtel I tend to agree. It's probably a fairly simple fix with a UserScript (though I don't have a link to one that does so on-hand). The data-value attribute of the container stays normalised even when the breakout is visible so you can re-attach the click listener and replace the HTML with the value from there to undo it. (I do acknowledge that it is annoying to have to use a userscript for everything...)
 
10:02 PM
I have never actually looked into how to set up userscripts. :(
 
Apparently though people have wanted to click to be able to undo vote counts since 2009
 
10:18 PM
As usual, there is zero effective process that starts with users having a good UI idea and ends with it being implemented.
 

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