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2:05 AM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine when you say "such comments" do you mean upvote comments or acceptance comments?
 
both, @RyanM :) I don't see the difference between the two where conflict of interest is concerned
either upvote or accept comments should not be posted if the commenter is involved, I think that should be the hard rule
it also will clear out who's defending the comments because they think they are helping the site from those with less benevolent motives
I, personally, would like to see them all go, but it looks like the proposal is going to be controversial, so I propose to make a Solomon decision
as in "fine, leave the comment once as in the previous caveat, but if you are involved, that will be considered direct abuse"
regardless of the wording
simple, easy to enforce, hard to argue against
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine I think one can fairly have both motives: one can think that accepting answers is useful, and that therefore, encouraging others to accept yours when they have stated that they're correct, rather than waiting for someone else to do it for you, is indeed useful for the site.
 
@RyanM correct, and those (provided they exist) should abstain from doing that as it is impossible for an outside observer to infer which motive is in play (any party will claim it does it for the greater good)
 
My proposal also has the convenient advantage that if the system improves to inform people that "thanks, this worked" is not a useful comment, then permissible comments requesting acceptance will substantially decrease as well.
 
I'd go with your proposal + conflict of interest
at least in terms of plausiblity - it seems like there's going to be quite a storm
 
2:17 AM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Well, one could argue that about virtually anything that could benefit both the user and the site. Maybe I'm only posting answers because I want more rep, rather than because I care about helping people. How can you tell?
 
@RyanM doesn't apply as by posting an answer you do not skew voting (which brings in rep) in your favor, simple
 
That said, I'm not totally opposed to the idea of the CoI requirement, and I would prefer it to a total ban. I just don't think it's important given the situations that I would allow the comments in.
Well, you surely do skew voting in your favor. If you don't post a better answer, people might vote for the other one.
Posting an answer is at least implicitly suggesting that you'd like it to be upvoted and/or accepted.
 
@RyanM I think it will be important - by disallowing that outright, you close the windpipe on complaints that "I posted 4000 comments on my posts and acted according to the rule". Let's make rules less easier to abuse rather than harder by keeping loopholes
 
...anyway, I feel I've gone too far down that rabbit hole of a reductio ad absurdum. I think what I'm trying to say is that when selfish motives result in people doing helpful things for the site, that's a good thing.
 
sure, and I am just saying that I'd like it accompanied with airtight rules with no wiggle room :) Which is the same as what I said above: "I'd go with your proposal + conflict of interest"
 
2:23 AM
I also, as a moderator, would prefer that I not have to adjudicate potentially complex conflict-of-interest cases. For example, what if you post it on a question where a coworker has an answer?
 
that's not part of the rule - only direct conflict of interest counts. We are not in position to check if someone posted on their friend's question, or coworker, or a family member, etc. Such a relationship is outside the scope of SO.
As I said, easy to enforce :)
 
We...definitely check that stuff somewhat commonly. It comes up in lots of voting ring/sockpuppetry cases.
 
yeah, sure - voting/sockpuppetry have much graver implication, though
 
Why is the site so slow every time I try to load a page?
 
eh, it got slow in the past hour for me, was pretty fast before
 
2:27 AM
It's been like this the past day or so.
Seems like once it warms up, it's faster.
 
I can also think of a group of users who I would totally expect to have their coworkers post those on their answers for them.
 
ugh
on an unrelated note: halp, I am seeing diamonds everywhere! xD
 
Ugh, Ryan's proposal. :-(
:-)
That's the kind of thing I'd expect to see from a non-mod.
Not someone who would have to actually thread that kind of a needle.
 
I'd much rather see the "total ban", but I fear there's going to be quite a storm
 
Frankly, I'm surprised this was posted on Meta as a "proposal". Wouldn't it have made more sense to just post it as a "rule", and take it from there? Now that it's a proposal, what happens if the question ends up with a negative score? I'm optimistic that won't happen, but what if the top voted answer is against it being a rule, and has a much higher score than the question, which now seems quite likely? Will mods still enforce the rule? I don't see how that's going to work.
Of course, mods can still enforce the rule regardless of meta's opinion, but that would make the "proposal" not really a proposal, and that's not good at all.
 
2:33 AM
@cigien I was, also, surprised about that.
 
I thought all mods were of one mind ;)
 
@CodyGray I also deliberately picked a rule that could be checked for compliance with a bit of random sampling from the comment search tool.
Search for the link, pick 5-10 at random, see if they're replies to a comment saying it worked. Done.
 
@cigien did you expect mods to look like this? :)
 
If you're just doing cleanup and not enforcement, anything older than a week containing the link, delete without a second thought.
 
@RyanM Meh. It's still way too much overhead. And random sampling is not a good way to moderate.
We just don't need more noise.
Hell, people are justifying this by saying that it's OK to leave noisy comments containing Help Center links telling people how to improve their questions. Well, it may shock everyone to learn that I also dislike those comments!
Cast a close vote and/or a downvote. Do so silently, with no need to leave noisy comments.
If nobody else agrees with you, then nothing else comes of it. If enough people do, then stuff happens at a system level. Perfect.
@cigien Oh, I see the confusion. You see, what is meant is that, between us, we have the intelligence of approximately one individual. We all share the same mind, just different pieces of it. :-)
2
 
2:40 AM
I share your dislike of "please read How to Ask and [tour]" comments, they're pretty useless.
 
:D
 
@CodyGray that explains the rule posted as a proposal xD [runs and hides in a corner]
 
In fact, I'd almost go the other way than saying a link to the Help Center justifies a comment: if you're leaving a comment that amounts to little more than a link to the Help Center, you shouldn't be leaving that comment at all.
 
I think that an explanation of how to improve that specific question is useful, though. Far more so than a downvote that explains nothing, or a close vote that the author won't see until days later, if ever.
 
If the close reason adequately explains how to improve the question, then no further comment is needed. The fact that the close reason's explanation doesn't show up until others agree that it actually applies is a feature, not a limitation.
Downvotes aren't meant to explain anything; common misconception.
Downvotes are meant to signal that someone thought the question was unclear or not interesting, and thus signal to future viewers that they may avoid wasting their time looking at that post.
If you do not find the opinions of others to be relevant to your own preferences, then you are free to ignore them.
 
2:43 AM
I'm not suggesting that they are meant to explain anything. In fact, I'm stating that they do not :-)
 
Right. By design.
But, yes, comments that provide specific, relevant, actionable guidance on how to improve a post are always welcome.
Better is just actually making those improvements yourself, but since that isn't always possible, a comment is an adequate fallback.
 
I have a bunch of canned comments for this...it has to be a bunch, because there are quite a few things that can be wrong.
 
But this brings us full-circle: accepting an answer, or even voting on an answer, doesn't improve the quality or usefulness of that answer.
And that is what I think people are (surprisingly) missing.
 
That answer? No. The question? Absolutely.
 
How?
How can accepting an answer improve an entirely different post?
 
2:46 AM
Scoring answers, via upvotes or acceptance, is a signal to future users with the same problem about whether the answer is worth their time.
 
Ah, yes, that's why they exist.
Should we therefore go around commenting under every answer, "If you think this answer is clear, relevant, and correct, consider giving it an upvote"?
 
Right, and so people doing that is useful, and should be encouraged. Posting "thanks, this worked!" is the worst possible way to do that.
 
This is the logical conclusion of everyone's attempt to justify these comments.
brb, building a commenting bot
 
Telling people who are currently misusing comments to stop posting the noisy comments and just use the accept button 1) reduces future comment noise and 2) improves the scoring of the answers on that question.
 
"Just this one more noisy comment, and all the other noisy comments will go away, I swear!"
 
2:50 AM
@CodyGray let's make it post the "thanks, this worked!" comment, then ask to upvote, then upvote, then proceed to suspend itself once it comments on every post. This way the problem can be dealt efficiently by FGITW'ing all the commenters.
 
Sure. Why wouldn't that work? People are exactly as likely to listen to that as any other piece of advice. Heck, following this piece of advice gives you 2 rep!
brb getting food
 
^^ Not sure if this was an ironic reply or not.
 
seems like @RyanM went for food unironically (on that note: have a nice meal!)
 
Yeah, that seems reasonable. I just finished the food thing, but Ryan is a couple hours behind me, time-zone wise.
 
in the meantime, there's quite a split on the rule-proposal
 
3:01 AM
Yeah. Ugh.
 
In hindsight, that's probably expected - it takes away a favourite pass time of many
 
The vast majority of users are reputation-obsessed, even the ones with excessive amounts of it.
 
ahem, especially those
 
3:18 AM
-1
Q: How can a post have 8 upvotes and 4 downvotes at the same time?

Sambhav. KI have asked a question here and realised that there are 8 upvotes and 4 downvotes. Very weird because, a question being liked by 8 ppl but also being disliked by 4 people? How it that possible?

 
@NewPosts I dunno... maybe by having 12 users visiting it? Unheard of
 
@NewPosts wat? wut? wot?
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine I suppose it's related to the complaints yesterday, about questions not having enough views/visitors?
 
@CodyGray yup, 'tis the same post of theirs
 
Meta effect, @AndrewT.? How? I don't see where they've posted a link to their question on Meta.
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Not theirs...
 
3:28 AM
@CodyGray Well, the OP showed the screenshot of their own post that may look like bragging. I did search the question from their profile directly.
 
Huh. I see.
I didn't find it because there's no link.
 
there's a link in the new post :)
they just matched on the title in my head
 
Ugh, these Meta posts by this handful of users are not productive.
 
I don't disagree with that sentiment :)
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Deleted: 0, -4, -5, -6, -7, -9, -10, -10, -11, -25.
 
In the old days, with the old profile pages, you could actually see that at a glance.
Now, scores are completely de-emphasized, to the point where you cannot just scan the page to see them.
 
@RyanM ah, a pity, so close to forming a progression
 
I definitely see a progression there.
 
I need 2 volunteers to upvote one of the -10 posts :)
 
3:38 AM
And 13 volunteers to upvote the -25 post?
 
no, that's ok, we can pretend that this is the second jump by 4
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Ah, that's... not going to be possible. The two options are: one complaining about "targeting" because they got 4 downvotes, with a "PS: Pls don't downvote it", and another feature-requesting a pop-up notification in the achievements menu for reputation loss.
 
if you are trying to find where I found a jump by 4, know that: I probably need to go get some sleep
I took the venerable "discard 10" approach to maths
 
It's a solid approach.
Here's what we can do: we can downvote the -25 post twice more, and then it'll be a jump by 4 followed by a jump by 4*4.
 
oh, that's true, I didn't think of that!
 
3:43 AM
In fairness, the "targeting" post does look like serial voting but oh my god the reputation page is so hard to read now that I can't tell if it actually got reversed or what happened.
 
Let's see what it is...
> Can we limit the stack overflow user or question deletion reputation loss?
> Now, yesterday, I lost about 17 reputation(very valuable to me) because of a question deletion. This is a loss for me. I understand that we will lose it if it does not exist. But, is it not a loss?
Yeah. I could get behind that being downvoted a few more times.
That is to say: I wouldn't see it as a loss.
@RyanM You must be looking at the wrong page. Try this one; it's fairly easy to see that it was reversed.
Interesting to note that the CM who investigated wasn't really even convinced it was targeted downvoting.
The verdict was, and I quote, "eh".
 
new headline: [mods and cats conspiring to create a sequence out of downvoted posts]
 
downvoted and deleted.
But who doesn't like sequences?
 
People who need eager evaluation.
but yeah uh, maybe MSO could use a question ban.
 
@CodyGray the discrete ones! I'll see myself out
 
3:49 AM
Did you know that discrete sequences exist? 🤯
 
aren't sequences discrete by definition?
 
I think so. But then perhaps I did not understand your joke.
 
@CodyGray I was trying to make a wordplay on the "discreet" homophone by saying that those who don't like sequences are "discrete" individuals :)
 
I guess the joke was done too discreetly.
 
Oh
A "silent majority" joke.
 
4:03 AM
 
@Feeds am I the only one that thinks that starting panel 3 the reasons aren't weird at all?
 
Perhaps it would have been better had Randall written, "...when Jenna Hager's dad was president"?
 
marginally :) I don't find it weird to know Bowie by Labyrinth and Zoolander
 
It's not even weird to know Jobs from Pixar
Pixar isn't some obscure company no one has ever heard of.
 
4:39 AM
@CodyGray ok, scratch the above - I don't find any panel weird. Maybe this was the true joke?
 
4:58 AM
There's more than one way to skin a cat
 
5:15 AM
sure [gulps nervously]
on a related note, apparently, it takes a Cody to shift the balance :)
 
Is the "How you gain technical skills" survey the same as the professional development series?
Nobody really came back to clarify what that was.
May 11 at 16:20, by Andrew T.
Professional Developer Service Series, where top SO users will be competing 1-on-1 to become the first SO Pro Developer!
Unless it's this.
 
might as well be ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> then that will certainly remove some of my enjoyment or motivation for producing great answers (11,000+ answers so far)
^ yes, please, stop machine-gunning answers to everything that looks like a question
 
Gordon Linoff Jr, is that you?
 
that would explain a lot, actually
 
5:32 AM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Which balance?
 
ah, no, nevermind, as all things in life, all things should be balanced
and so a very familiar face appeared
@OlegValteriswithUkraine ok, definitely need to sleep, this is borderline unintelligible
 
You need to balance not sleeping and sleeping.
 
maybe if I could eliminate half the sleep, it would help?
 
That's not normally how balancing works
You're thinking of subtraction
 
Well, substitution works. You can substitute some of the sleep with caffeine.
For a while, at least.
 
5:45 AM
Dear God, am I tired of Ubuntu popping up a "Software Update" message every freaking day.
 
@VLAZ wait, if I substitute what's left of the sleep schedule with caffeine, what will be left is caffeine only
 
It's literally worse than Windows now.
 
My messages went together, as a little contextual island.
 
5:48 AM
No, scratch that - you're saying caffeine is worse than Windows. Just aim to confuse Oleg more :P
 
I switched over to my Ubuntu dev box to do some actual work, after finishing with emails, and I was frustrated to see (A) another day, yet another irritating "Software Update" pop-up in front of the work I am actually trying to do (sometimes it even steals keyboard input!), and (B) that the machine had hard crashed, something that the "Software Update" pop-up seems to bring about frequently, but probably only a spurious correlation, as both tend to happen after the machine sits for a while.
Caffeine is, likely, worse than Windows.
 
@CodyGray hmm
@CodyGray lol, it sounds literally worse than Windows updates
 
Yeah. Well, on the upside, I just discovered in the settings where I can change the frequency of notifications to be "Weekly", as opposed to what was previously set "Daily", which I assume is the default.
Weekly would be a bit more like Windows's Patch Tuesday.
Still way more frequently than I want.
 
Just install Windows 95 and you won't have these problems.
 
6:03 AM
@CodyGray huh, yeah, there's always a setting somewhere... which is still a bit annoying. I am not sure I'd survive daily updates for long - I wonder what's the reasoning for this to be the default
 
@VLAZ A qualified yes. NT 4 is better because it's more stable than 95.
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Lazy, ineffective developers constantly breaking things, and so wanting users to rapidly install updates to hide their incompetence.
You see, I have some opinions about this.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Probably security, stability, and very likely the perception of being better. "Ubuntu is much more active!"
 
Actively annoying.
 
6:19 AM
I don't argue that it's not annoying. But what they want to portray it as. And, to be honest, it might work for other people.
 
I can't imagine that would ever factor into anyone's decision to use Ubuntu.
Personally, I use it only because it is the officially supported platform for building a thing that I need to build.
 
I've seen people counting "support" as a good thing. And defining "support" as constant patches that are released.
 
Seems way better not to write buggy code in the first place that needs addressed via constant patches.
 
That seems logical to me, yes.
 
7:00 AM
0
Q: Do I have to subscribe to take exam Oracle Database SQL Exam Number: 1Z0-071

Le Thi LinhI'm preparing for taking an Oracle exam, but I don't know do I have to subscribe to take the test. I read the info from this page: https://education.oracle.com/oracle-database-sql/pexam_1Z0-071 Please give me some advice, thanks

 
@CodyGray good teamwork
very efficient
 
I clicked one button. I think your button might be defective?
 
7:12 AM
-1
Q: Request: "AMOLED" dark mode

Tamás SengelThe high contrast dark mode is awesome, I use it as my main theme for Stack Overflow. However, the underlines used for every link are annoying. It would be awesome if we could have a tweaked version of the high contrast mode as an "AMOLED" dark mode, because the black background is so much better...

 
> If you really think that, then why not just get rid of reputation entirely
^ yes, please, you are finally thinking in the right direction!
 
You want to bring back the "Ultra Dark" mode from April Fools' Day 2020? — Cody Gray ♦ 31 secs ago
Ultra-dark 3D glasses mode when?
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Nah, that's silly. Reputation should be kept; how else would we measure engagement? But gamification should be removed.
 
What do you mean by engagement?
 
Not the kind that results in marriage.
 
7:17 AM
So, the military kind?
 
Yup, with tanks in advancement and everything.
 
@RyanM pfff, I have an even better version for chat :)
 
Well, that's awful.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine What is this?
 
that's the whole point!
@CodyGray Ultra Dark Mode for chat (unpublished). Created as a joke while I was bored
 
7:20 AM
Oh. The battery indicator icon is something you added, too?
 
yup, fully interactive - rechargeable and starts to drain upon being charged. Discharge time is also configurable :)
 
Hah
And how do you charge it? Leaving the screen in dark mode for a while?
 
you have to click until it recharges - like a manual flashlight
I am still entertaining the idea of making a horror game out of this
Imagine combining this with a chord sound from pings on meta.chat if spending too much time in the dark - truly nerve-wrecking
 
You don't have to implement anything to get horrible-sounding pings from the SE chat server!
With the light on or off, they can knock you out of your chair.
 
Hmm, true that, it's just a matter of having it on anywhere on SE chat server
 
7:28 AM
Wouldn't clicking consume power, though?
Sounds like this is not well thought-out. :-p
 
@CodyGray clicking acts as a "wound-up" mechanism when the battery fully drains :)
 
Someone told him that the downvotes were due to the "meta effect"
It's the new "Tim lost his keys" meme for explaining why low-quality things get downvoted...
When the real explanation is because they're low-quality.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Nope.
 
@RyanM thnaks!
> I don't ever "tell" someone to accept an answer
 
Sounds right to me: they don't ever "tell" someone; they "demand" it.
It can still be a demand, even if you say please.
 
7:37 AM
I mean...that was a self-answer, though...
 
Somehow, it's even worse that they did it imperiously, without realizing that the user couldn't even accept the answer at the time of reading the comment.
 
2/3: That's informing them that they can, not telling them to..
 
"Uhh!"
Yeah, that sounds like they're super excited and did not feel at all pressured.
 
7:38 AM
I can do this all day :) I have a nice little SEDE query for calling out users on "I never said it"
 
That's fun. I click to delete a comment, and it shows up as having been deleted by Ryan M.
I did get one he didn't, though!
 
Oh, I hadn't read that far down the page.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Ehhh.... I'm not sure this counts.
 
^ no pressure at all
 
7:40 AM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Eeeeek.
 
@CodyGray yeah, that's one of the of the most mild
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine that one crosses the line, even for me. However, I can't necessarily blame them for forgetting what they wrote literally a decade ago.
 
Well, it's not about mildness. It's because it doesn't tell someone to accept an answer. It complains about the answer they did accept.
 
I'd consider a mod message for that comment on its own.
 
@CodyGray yeah, I guess - just going through the list I just fetched
didn't even have to look far
 
7:42 AM
Oh, I assumed you were reading the comments :-p
 
@CodyGray well, #4 sounded like nagging to me, but I can safely write it off as my bad judgement :) there's more! just a sec...
@RyanM well, I wouldn't either if they haven't claimed they "don't ever tell"
 
Totally different types of nagging
 
and why am I not surprised that while going through the list I see a "slight" correlation between the commenter leaving the comments and being the answerer
 
Because that's how this works
 
of course - that's not really about helping the site, isn't it? hardly ever is
 
7:48 AM
Well, sure it is. They already explained how. Maybe you missed it? I'll try to summarize.
By bullying people into accepting answers, they get more of their answers accepted, and that gets them more reputation points, which makes them more motivated to contribute, which means they'll post more answers, which gets more questions answered, which makes the site better.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine also banned under my proposed regime
Also would ban:
That does not entitle you to downvote. His answer was correct for the question you asked. — Tim Roberts 13 hours ago
the best part? It wasn't them.
@wickedpanda. I didn't downvote you on purpose, maybe accidentally clicked that?But I click the upper arrow and try to make it "1", I can only make it to 0, not 1. Sorry for the misunderstanding again. — Weixu Pan 13 hours ago
 
@TimRoberts: The OP doesn't have enough reputation to downvote answers, so it definitely wasn't them. — Jeremy Caney 12 hours ago
 
^ no... never begged for upvotes
 

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