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12:00 PM
Nah, I'm not 60.
I'm 59.
 
a doctor?
You are 20
 
@AndrasDeak Nah, we remove noise
noise is bad, fluff is good
 
@Zoethetransgirl your ping name looks like a badass German term for a chemical phenomena I'd never understand.
 
@GeorgeStocker OK, here I am. Can you now explain why my comment was removed in a vacuum when I was responding to other comments? Surely if mine was off-topic so would those that I was responding to?
 
Zoethe trans-GiRL.
Probably an enzyme.
 
12:02 PM
@M.A.R. DEUTSCHLAND!
 
I'd play the national anthem in my mind but I don't understand that one too
 
@GeorgeStocker and now you've locked the post?
 
@M.A.R. It goes duuu-du-duuu-duuu duu-duu-dududu
 
@Script47 Did you read the bolded warnings that are in the post and its comments.
 
@M.A.R. How do you know that?
Which post?
 
12:04 PM
@GeorgeStocker yes. Why?
 
What
 
@Script47 thats your answer.
 
Oh, everyone don't use replies so chat gets confusing. Hang on, I think I can coordinate this.
 
@Script47 if you can't see new comments they are probably deleted
 
Two people talk about Mozart. Two talk about national hockey or baseball.
Three about the comment deletion.
 
12:06 PM
> . If you cannot say anything helpful or constructive, we strongly recommend refraining from leaving a comment. Moderators are monitoring this answer closely and violations will be dealt with accordingly.
Please bring off-topic discussions as well as comment replies to other users to The Meta Room. Read warning in the post above before posting a comment. We reserve the right to edit or delete any comment at any time without reason. — Samuel Liew ♦ yesterday
 
@GeorgeStocker that's not an appropriate answer to my question. You singled out my comment and deleted it. I asked for a clarification and that got deleted too. I then asked for another and that got deleted too. You told me to come on chat and now I'm asking clearly, why was my comment singled out and deleted? It was directly responding to another comment posted. Surely the whole chain should've been deleted?
2
 
reposting deleted comments is exactly what you should not do
it's like an edit war
 
@AndrasDeak I did not re-post a deleted comment.
 
@Script47 singled you out? I deleted 17 comments.
 
@Script47 okay, sorry. Keep posting angry comments about a deleted comment?
 
12:07 PM
@GeorgeStocker singled me out in that conversation that was taking place.
 
I'm sure we can reach some middle-ground here
 
Script, this is not constructive
 
@Script47 I deleted all of the comments pertaining to the conversations. I left the comments that were making a stand alone point that didn’t invite discussion.
 
@AndrasDeak absolutely. I just wanted a clarification and was told to come on here. I'm NOT angry.
 
People not listening is what gets the post locked
 
12:09 PM
I missed out the not... bad timing for a mistype.
 
it's alright
 
@GeorgeStocker Why isn't it? -500 is the same signal as -700 and comments are obviously not really necessary on there anymore
 
2 messages moved to Trash can
 
@Magisch it is now.
 
Let's keep this civil, @OrangeDog
 
12:10 PM
Kinda hard to take someone seriously when you call them Orange...
 
We’ve got a lot going on for moderators to baby sit a single post today. It’s too early to start this stuff.
 
Someone could want to post a comment that's helpful and constructive under there. Better not lock it when it's not needed, but I guess it is.
 
@GeorgeStocker FYI, no you didn't. @SteffenWinkler is asking @StuartWhitehouse's input. It isn't a standalone point.
 
sorry, but continuallt avoiding answering genuine questions is very annoying
 
Feel free to raise a new meta issue regarding whatever point you felt like you were making a comment on.
 
12:11 PM
This chat has the same rule as content moderation in general. We discuss actions, not users. If you have problems with moderator actions, raise the problems with the actions on meta or somesuch. We can't have sidesnipes at specific mods in here. It's rude
3
 
@Script47 hm?
 
^ what @Magisch said.
 
@GeorgeStocker "saying the user only 'questioned' the policy is inaccurate and a mischaracterization of the events that transpired."
 
@Magisch I was told to come on here by @GeorgeStocker.
 
I know this is stricter then usual but this is a trying time and we don't have the time to litigate every facet of this right now
 
12:12 PM
@Script47 To discuss. Not to point fingers.
 
Brb getting breakfast.
 
then everyone should stop litigating every facet and actually answer direct questions rather than diverting conversation
 
@Script47 right, but you're a capable and empathic human being. You must know sideswipes aren't a respectful form of discussion
 
@Cerbrus and @Magisch sorry, could you clarify what you mean?
 
Then what did transpire actually? I have only seen Monica Cellio's account so far, which is obviously biased.
 
12:12 PM
@Script47 Keep it constructive.
 
I need to show off my superior hunting skills and catch a guest speaker soon for our A.I. in Robotics meetup this month.
 
3 messages moved to Trash can
 
@Cerbrus once again, where have I not been constructive? I'm not being purposefully unhelpful but I'm not sure if you're following what happened.
 
No point in announcing you're exiting the room.
 
12:13 PM
meh
 
@Cerbrus ... except to say goodbye?
 
@Cerbrus it can be a helpful hint to others to disengage
 
@AnsgarWiechers a few moderators yesterday in this room indicated an accurate chain of events. I responded as such for those. Due to our moderator agreement it’s unclear how much we can say.
It was yesterday morning (21 hours ago or so)
I’m on mobile chat otherwise I’d go find it
 
Or as the old saying goes, a rumor goes around the earth twice before the truth has the time to put on its pants
 
12:15 PM
@Druckles Hey, oranges are love. Oranges are life.
 
@GeorgeStocker OK. I'll see if I can find it.
Thx.
 
Rumour is ... orange cats are fatter. Not sure whether it has any scientific backing
 
@SteffenWinkler OMG, that pronoun BS? Seriously?
 
4 hours ago, by weegee
For discussion about pronouns in CoC, join the discord server https://discord.gg/zGbMXb please don't bring this conversation in the meta room.
 
we had the room frozen yesterday because of that discussion
bringing it up at all is putting us on thinner ice then we can afford right now
 
12:18 PM
@Cerbrus Sorry.
 
Not everyone looks at starred messages, though
@AnsgarWiechers No problem.
 
@AnsgarWiechers I think everyone kinda spent their sugar rush on it and I'm feeling pretty blank personally, I'd appreciate it if you add your comments on the (I think by now) dozen related meta follow ups; it's pretty draining for it to keep coming up again and again.
 
(sorry)
 
@Cerbrus Not everyone can look at starred messages. Mobile.
 
:47452343 That one is even vaguer, so I guess even more assumptions would have to be made
 
12:20 PM
1 message moved to Trash can
Immediately after a reminder not to discuss that here...
 
@Cerbrus the weird thing is that we got told to go here to discuss it. See meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/389906/…
 
@SteffenWinkler: Not the pronoun thing.
 
@Magisch and @Cerbrus I was rereading what was wrote and wanted to clear the air. No one was taking sidesnipes @GeorgeStocker, @GeorgeStocker instructed me to come in this room to discuss what transpired between me and him.
 
Not the pronoun issue
 
@GeorgeStocker or any other mod, can we talk for a second in private over the room
 
12:22 PM
@Magisch sure
 
@Script47 Then maybe I misunderstood what you were saying
 
@GeorgeStocker now I'm confused. :/
 
@Cerbrus I believe so, hence my plea: '@Cerbrus once again, where have I not been constructive? I'm not being purposefully unhelpful but I'm not sure if you're following what happened.'
 
@SteffenWinkler "If you want to have a discussion [about this post from Sara Chipps]"
 
From my end, it looked like you blaming George and not listening.
 
12:24 PM
@Cerbrus from my end it looks like the opposite
 
opa
@SteffenWinkler Sara Chipps != "agreement with CoC gender issues"
 
@OrangeDog to be fair, we weren't doing that. The discussion was more about how 'the pronoun thing' and 'the firing' and 'the resignation' are related to eachother
 
@SteffenWinkler Unclear and old message.
 
@Cerbrus Lol, I guess at least someone hasn't changed after all of these events
 
should've been moved/closed/walked away from way earlier, I admit.
 
12:25 PM
The pronoun discussion resulted in this room getting frozen, so we had to stop.
 
I kinda like that.
 
@Cerbrus Nope, I was questioning his actions which naturally requires me to listen.
 
My apologies, then.
 
@SteffenWinkler which is another level of inappropriate venue. Comments aren't for discussion in the first place.
 
opa
@SteffenWinkler You can still get an answer to the whole firing thing with out making it a discussion on pronouns in CoC. Your agreement, belief, or views around gender pronouns does not need to be in that discussion
 
12:28 PM
@opa I agree. In theory. But one thing leads to another. Even just linking to a news article about the subject (what I did) set things off again.
 
@OrangeDog ah...righ. That...
 
Debating the pronoun issue is off topic here and will be squashed. We don’t have a CoC to point to for anyone to debate vis a vis pronouns so its useless to debate that. If you want to talk about the firing, resignations, or anything else, great. But don’t veer into a conversation about the pronoun debate. I wish we could but it’s already gotten out of hand twice in one day when we did.
12
 
So just don't mention it.
 
opa
@Raedwald One thing only leads to another when people insist on sea lioning thier views about gender.
 
@SteffenWinkler My comment (now deleted) was towards you and was essentially quoting: 'Instead all of them are rallying against a change of the CoC that will prevent such an extreme case of verbal abuse from happening again.' - My question is that if an extreme case of verbal abuse was taking place, why wouldn't the current CoC prevent it? Secondly, I don't think as many people are against the new CoC yet as much as they are against how Monica's firing was handled.
 
12:30 PM
~~not sure the metaphor quite holds up~~ oh it's not a metaphor
 
@Script47 you can pull your exact quote from the meta archive if it caught it before I deleted it
 
@GeorgeStocker I second this (keep it pinned). Please keep discussions on use of gender pronouns or speculations to CoC changes out of this room.
 
@Script47 that is a good question I admit.
 
@SamuelLiew He didn't pin that :P
 
@SteffenWinkler (which ironically was why I was annoyed that @GeorgeStocker deleted it...)
 
12:31 PM
as for the latter part: Not from what I have seen in the comments and 'answers'
 
@Cerbrus I didn't think George pinned it
 
@GeorgeStocker Uh, should we include the link?
 

 Meta Stack Overflow Comment Archive

A comprehensive archive of all Meta Stack Overflow Comments. C...
 
The pins are too many to read now.
 
@SamuelLiew I thought you did think that :P
 
12:32 PM
@SteffenWinkler depends which ones you read
 
a lot of 'muh free speech' proponents in the comment sections @Script47
 
Of course, a more blunt stance on what's not appropriate is appreciated
 
Im on mobile chat so an assist in pinning it would be helpful
 
@GeorgeStocker done
 
@GeorgeStocker Tell me what to do
ah
 
@SteffenWinkler yeah, I don't care about the free speech aspect because we can't really control that.
 
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Too many!
 
uh I unpinned two
 
OK/
 
one with my room link, the other was the unfreeze message by CM
 
12:34 PM
It's just it looks really long when your script isn't on
 
@Script47 from what George just linked Can you quote what verbal abuse was talking place no of course not. I'm not a mod and the mods are tightlipped and aren't providing any kind of context or source for any of this, which is really not helping the entire thing
 
@M.A.R. (o・_・)ノ”(ノ_<、)
 
or maybe it is helping it
 
┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)
 
@SteffenWinkler the request for the quoting was merely to see if what was being said is against the current CoC and if it is, why wasn't it handled appropriately. Which circles back to my original question, why is the new CoC required if the current handles it?
 
12:35 PM
on the other hand, de-platforming everyone you disagree with, or even just everyone who is an asshole, is unhelpful and unhealthy and not nice
 
"de-platforming everyone who is an asshole' I'm going to regret this but...why would that be a bad thing?
 
That heavily depends on your classification of asshole.
 
@SteffenWinkler because depending on what we consider the border for disagreement, everyone could be thrown off the site
 
@Roberrrt fair point.
 
@GeorgeStocker RE comment archive: I had no idea it existed. Thanks.
 
user3956566
12:38 PM
@DaImTo hi hun. Yes the state of the site was brought to my attention, so I've returned to help support people. How are you?
 
It started some time ago as a measure to quall fears over stricter mso comment moderation
 
Regarding what the mods who have stayed around (not resigned) have said:
 
I suppose no formal response issued by SE has been issued regarding the latest dumpster fire?
 
17 hours ago, by Rob
@JohnDvorak She was not de-modded for asking for clarification, or a discussion. It was a flat out refusal to agree to the terms we were asked to. There's debate between moderators as to whether the terms are fair. What the majority of mods agree on, is that the demodding of Monica wasn't handled in the best way possible
 
(in the last 12h)
 
user3956566
12:39 PM
@OrangeDog thanks for looking out for me, but @DaImTo is welcome to ping me at any time. I'm just delighted to have her in this chat room. It took a lot of coaxing :D Next I will gently encourage her to run for mod :p She's a hella experienced programmer with a level head.
 
@Script47 erh to your question. As long as nobody pulls up quotes I don't think anyone can answer that
 
@AnsgarWiechers see my last message regarding your question on what remaining mods can say
 
Already saw it. Thx.
 
The "New spam/offensive flags" popup: is there a way to jump to the context?
 
12:41 PM
Throws popcorn at @YvetteColomb
 
user3956566
@NickA catches in mouth Nom nom nom
 
@YvetteColomb Encourage her to run for mod? Maybe the timing for that is a bit awkward :)
 
user3956566
@Gimby ikr! there may not be a site to have mods! or we may really need mods! Who the heck knows!
 
user3956566
There's more people remaining in moderator positions than there are leaving.
 
For now :)
 
user3956566
12:44 PM
anyway I'm in the middle of thingz.... I'll pop in later \o
 
I’d be worried if 600 moderators left
 
I trust the moderators to correctly identify verbal abuse. Now, we might disagree whether snark or subtle put downs are really over the line of being rude. But I suspect we can all agree what constitutes verbal abuse.
 
@YvetteColomb Assuming the site survives long enough to see an election :]
 
user3956566
@GeorgeStocker Exactly! I think we're on the same page on this issue
 
@GeorgeStocker We have 600 moderators?
 
12:44 PM
@GeorgeStocker Some sites, all of them left. Thats significant
2
 
@GeorgeStocker Hm, I never really thought about how many there are in total.
 
@Raedwald technically can it verbal if it's written down instead?
 
user3956566
@Zoethetransgirl true that. It's possible it could collapse, but I don't think it's probable
 
@Zoethetransgirl I think we have over 1000?
 
One of the problems with the TL is that everyone in there is a moderator, there’s no real way to moderate a room where everyone is a moderator.
 
12:45 PM
I have no idea, I guesstimated max 500
 
Though you're right in the big picture
 
The technical guards have no effect.
 
@Magisch Shouldn't it be roughly three times 200?
 
how do you flag something in that room?
 
@YvetteColomb workspace.SE just lost all their mods
 
12:45 PM
couldn't everyone see who flagged everything
 
*place
 
@Magisch Post a gif
 
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
 
workspace, workplace, some SE site with "work" in it. (Spelling is hard, OK? xd)
 
user3956566
@GeorgeStocker in a way this isn't wholly a bad thing. It is hell for the staff right now, but when things subside it will be interesting to see what is left over. Hopefully the site will be calmer. I dunno.
 
12:46 PM
So let’s say there was verbal abuse in the TL. It’d be hard to deal with it from a technical perspective, and much like any other chat room with 600 people you’d need to be watching it 24/7 to catch it when it happens
 
Si tacuisses ...?
 
@Raedwald it's not the who but how that's significant here
 
@Raedwald Meta watchmen. Duh.
 
I think quantifying the amount of moderators that leave in order to make the impact significant is a terrible way of looking at it. The fact people are leaving that have been here for years should be the significance.
 
user3956566
@Zoethetransgirl hmmmm dammit. Why did I just have to go and be positive in public? Honestly, I think it will work out
 
12:47 PM
in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, yesterday, by M.A.R.
I mean no disrespect for the newer mods, but if there was a "supermoderator honorary volunteer awesome" title, then probably 50 percent of the ones that were around left.
 
Maybe eventually, but it requires a lot from SE to fix
 
I can’t speak specifically to that but I can say generally that not everything is for everyone. One of the things it looks like SE is doing is finding its voice and tribe. They are standing up for what they want the community to be and that will necessarily drive away folks who don’t share those values.
 
user3956566
@M.A.R. wow, that's untrue. There's a lot of dedicated and hard working moderators still active on the network, the SO mods for example
 
@YvetteColomb Of course.
 
That can cause turmoil but it’ll also ensure those that stay around reflect the values SE preaches
 
12:48 PM
@GeorgeStocker While in itself thet's an admirable goal, the way they're going about it isn't exactly... optimal
 
@Rob Monica issuing a "flat-out refusal" to comply with the new CoC doesn't really square with her post, or Caleb's. I am confused, because between what you say and what they say I struggle to see any possible interpretation in which one side isn't either outright lying to us or at least telling a version of events that's highly deceptively selective.
 
And if your moderators don’t reflect your values, how do you expect them to enforce those values?
 
user3956566
@GeorgeStocker I actually agree with you. Though I think the community shouldn't be dismissed outright. there's plenty of people here who are good eggs and work hard for the site
 
user3956566
@Cerbrus yep agree. I'm hoping all this brings out a resolution that works
 
@MarkAmery Rashomon is my favourite film. I am not a post modernist.
 
12:49 PM
Ah man, I'm not up for this again. Ciao!
@GeorgeStocker Aren't your terms a bit loaded?
I don't think you're depicting the sides in an unbiased manner, but I digress.
 
user3956566
@MarkAmery I have a copy of the post from the moderator teams where she flatly refuses - this is from some time ago
 
Gonna do something fun
 
user3956566
I'm not able to share it
 
@MarkAmery I find it striking that the people that left didn’t post their chats to prove their case. It would have been trivially easy to do so. The people that stayed are forbidden from doing it.
 
Tribalism and cultural warfare isn't helpful though for the stated goals of the network. The problem is the stated goals are not the actual goals, which are now "make money".
 
12:50 PM
@GeorgeStocker Aren't contents of the TL covered under the mod agreement NDA?
 
@GeorgeStocker retaliation
 
@GeorgeStocker from what I understood, if leavers shared that kind of stuff, they might face legal action
 
@Magisch sure, but If you’re leaving what do you care?
 
user3956566
@GeorgeStocker exactly! and there were enough moderator breaches in a couple of the resignations that kinda implied they were up for breaking those confidences
 
@GeorgeStocker an NDA is court oder enforcible
 
12:51 PM
@GeorgeStocker TBF, they might feel honour bound to maintain the confidentiality and not to burn bridges.
 
Sooo, they shouldn't worry about legal action?
 
If I signed that thing I would never break it even if I wasnt a mod anymore
 
@Magisch there are no legal contracts with legal consequences here
 
@GeorgeStocker Are you absolutely certain about that?
 
They're following their moral compass, and wouldn't it be morally wrong to break that agreement.
 
12:52 PM
At least where I am, breaking an NDA even when the NDA itself does not have spelled out contract penalties is illegal
 
tbh
 
user3956566
@OrangeDog agree, but the site still has a lot of altruistic dictates that align with that goal. That's what I am hanging onto.
 
There are signed agreements that threaten termination of you don’t adhere to them. If you’re leaving then that wouldn’t apply to you
 
the NDA I signed for my job is 2 lines long, I would still be utterly screwed if I broke it
 
@Cerbrus source — I know what I agreed to?
 
12:52 PM
FWIW, Monica did post a transcript. From memory, but still.
 
Well that opens up a whole new set op possibilities... and a can of worms
 
@JohnDvorak link?
 
user3956566
@Magisch yep but a couple of the mods have broken that agreement in their public posts. With what they've written
 
@Roberrrt exactly, the sort of people to resign on principal are not the sort of people who would break their own promises of confidentiality
 
@GeorgeStocker I don't know what mods agree to :P You're the first one I hear claim that legal actions aren't something to worry about.
 
12:53 PM
@YvetteColomb This mess is quickly becoming multidimensional and too much to keep up with as a mere mortal
 
I regret I commented at all about it yesterday
 
This mess would be way easier to deal with it if SE would just post their new CoC.
 
@JohnDvorak it is, let’s say... not an objectively accurate depiction of what transpired.
 
user3956566
@Magisch exactly cactus man and on that note, I must flee, as I'm being drawn back in and it's all my own doing O>O
 
12:53 PM
They're probably working on that
 
user3956566
@GeorgeStocker did you see my MSE post on it? I thought it offered another POV of how things transpired. As it was totally skewed from the one POV that was ignoring many facts of the case
 
Come to think of it, they should probably sit down and make their moderator agreement an actual legal document.
 
@GeorgeStocker I'm backing you up on this
 
@GeorgeStocker Surely you can release the official transcript now that the other side has agreed to it being published by actually claiming to have published it?
 
@JohnDvorak I'd be very against that
 
12:55 PM
@JohnDvorak I wish I could. It would make things much simpler.
 
user3956566
@JohnDvorak there's too many people in that room who are in that room on a guarantee of privacy
 
Any chance it'll be done by the staff then?
 
user3956566
nope
 
People discuss things in the TL with the guarantee of confidentiality
 
user3956566
it is a private room with the promise of confidentiality
 
12:56 PM
So unless SE decides to release it themselves, we are bound to not disclose what was discussed.
 
user3956566
the thing that annoys me, is how it's been dragged out in public with a lopsided view.
 
And that line is weird. So weird we don’t quite know where it ends and begins
 
user3956566
No one has the complete truth - except the team and Monica.
 
Direct quotes are out, copy pasta and screenshots are out, paraphrases are out.
 
@GeorgeStocker I was under the impression it was an industry standard NPI NDA
 
12:57 PM
@Magisch I don’t know what that is
 
Non disclosure agreement for access to non public personally identifiying information
 
An accurate transcript would name the participants. As the subject is evidently heated, that would cause heat directed at particular people. Not good.
 
And to Yvette’s point, there is later communication that happened over email that we aren’t privy to (alluded to, mentioned by monica in her post)
 
sweeeeet
 
@GeorgeStocker to which, allegedly, there has not been a response
 
is that the whole thing?
 
Oh that's a lot less than I expected
 
@GeorgeStocker Also mentioned in Sara Chopp's e-mail to The Register.
 
@Magisch yup.
I think the help center has specific policies, but that’s the mod agreement
 
@GeorgeStocker :/ I thought that was an executive summary like the blurb you get on a license
 

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