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user3956566
12:00
@ErikA that precisely!
Just wondering: have there ever been "real" (like serious, well thought-through) attempts of "strike" here? Or discussions about that?
@jpmc26 seeing that bleeding users is bad for business should do the trick.
@YvetteColomb I haven't had the opportunity to sit down and watch through your videos yet, though I keep meaning to. I know we're on opposite ends of the spectrum in some ways and in complete agreement in others, though.
@GhostCat does the mass resignation count?
@JohnDvorak No, I mean what would they have to do to make you trust them?
12:02
@jpmc26 i've taken the liberty
@jpmc26 Written apology and either unfiring Monica or providing a real good reason why they did it.
@JohnDvorak Also, they consider us to be just "0.015%" of users. Probably most users don't know or care, and it's entirely possible that they see those of us who try to moderate the site as hindrances to attracting more users.
That would have to change, yes
@JohnDvorak simply unfiring monica would be insufficient at this point
user3956566
@jpmc26 to me, it's all very clear. Bottom line is $$ - it's a corporation now (or whatever it actually is) and everything is motivated by that. You have employees from the old days that are altruistic. But in terms of the welcoming and the rest of it - it was to get butts on chairs - page views, stop user attrition. And then you have a bunch of people wanting to make a difference (myself included) jumping on that and forgetting - it's a business and that is what is motivating all of it.
3
12:04
that would have to come with a sincere and personal apology
user3956566
@JohnDvorak they're not allowed to disclose that. Same with Jeremy and anyone else that went before
@YvetteColomb I still disagree. It's not just about dollars. There's a particular sociopolitical ideology here. The same one behind that fiasco of a Gillette ad, which was such bad PR they killed the campaign.
@jpmc26 often times the ideology serves the $ though
I want to see any effort from them, and then we'll see where that leads.
@Haem Interpolating between the public statements, the forthcoming policy change is something about intolerance. The difficulty is that you must allow some "intolerant" statements on the religious sites, and thus some people who hold those views. But we don't need or want those views expressed at all on the technical sites.
12:06
or just for employee retention. The american tech sector is more or less uniform in ideology at this time
user3956566
@jpmc26 yeh, but I think what motivated that ideology and continues to drive it is $$ user attrition and complaints - what was driving people off the site. They were not making money
user3956566
@Magisch yep and it is largely a US concern, but we'll see with the new CEO
@YvetteColomb I won't deny there's an alliance of business people who think that the ideology will make them money with the people pushing it, but I'm still certain that many people making decisions are putting the ideology ahead of making money. Consider that Joel explicitly stated that SO was going to get more political/ideological in the wake of Time to Take a Stand, for instance. I doubt he did so believing it would make money.
@JohnDvorak A mass resignation isn't a strike. A strike is a somehow coordinated effort, organized, ideally trying to achieve a certain goal.
user3956566
If they lose the experts and more mature users, they will be left with a bunch of help vampires and people wanting to gain rep at all costs without the care of curation for content. There's a lot to be said for having a mature user base (mature == experience on the site)
12:09
@YvetteColomb And you know what? A swarm of vampires sucking each other's blood still brings money to the treasury.
@jpmc26 It's all tied together in a way. Those opposing sillicon valley's ideology are convinced the whole industry needs tough regulation. A lot of rich people stand to lose a metric ton of money in that.
user3956566
@jpmc26 I have no doubt at all that Joel knows full well what he's doing. He's made buckets and he's a clever man
And now I'm depressed.
@GhostCat Not that I think it is a solution, nor that I support the idea. But a strike online is basically a DDOS.
I need to get Jon Skeet in here to resign.
user3956566
12:09
@JohnDvorak yes, but it may dwindle
user3956566
@JohnDvorak sorry hun
but speculating on the reasoning for why things are the way they are is useless
2
@aloisdg bad idea
user3956566
we need to wait and see what happens with this fall out
@aloisdg Huh? People not writing answers, people not flagging or voting, how could taht ever be a DDOS?
12:10
What does "fall out" mean?
@Magisch There's a substantial faction that believes government regulation is generally not an answer to much of anything. ;)
we've exhausted the avenues to make displeasure known, now we can only wait and draw our own conclusions
That would be the essence of a "strike". Methinks.
Was in a meeting. People not answering/doing their job is a strike if it is announced ahead of time
i.e. you don't just up and do nothing - that's a professional fault
@StephanS note that I didnt say it was
12:10
@Magisch I don't think so. Like someone else mentioned in another per meta site, the company hurts the mods and it will be hard to heal. The mods won't expect anything in return but work hard to keep a company's website clean. For a real world example, assume you helped a person to achieve everything and at the end, he told you to get lost, what would you feel? the same happens here.
@Magisch I disagree. Understanding the causes is vital to determining a solution.
user3956566
@Magisch meh, there's nothing new under the sun. And that's where there is something to be learnt from elders, as we've been around and seen it all. Half a century. You lose the idealism and become realistic about what makes the world go round/
@YvetteColomb I have a question for you, since I'm new to this context - how strict is the mod contract, if there is any?
user3956566
@SébastienRenauld the site is at a turning point. It will be interesting to see what happens
i.e. are there clear OKRs and split responsibilities, or is it implicit
user3956566
12:11
@SébastienRenauld very strict
user3956566
which is why I cannot say - but am only hinting at some things
It all started. Unfiring Monica may stop this temporarily but still the mods have a hanging knife over their head. Also they won't forget this when something like this happen in the future.
user3956566
and it needs to be strict. mods get to see PII
mods are unpaid the relationship is already unstable
Oh, I didn't want specific details, and it'd be a breach of contract for most contracts to divulge
12:12
PII?
@GhostCat Personally Identifiable Info
user3956566
dammit little i
just wanted to be sure that it isn't the usual wishy washy opensource-esque "contracts"
If the contract is this strict and this isn't anti-unionized then a strike could help a bit
user3956566
@SébastienRenauld nope, it's strict. There's more to everything than meets to eye
obviously, the answer to a strike in most non-French countries is "fire the strikers"
user3956566
12:14
I don't think the mods would agree to a strike. it's not black and white. There's various camps
@YvetteColomb @SagarV FYI, your comments have just been deleted
En France, on a une culture de la grêve :)
@SébastienRenauld that doesn't always work
@NickA noticed it already.
user3956566
@NickA aye I knew it would. which is why I posted it here/
12:15
not just ours. All comments after Samuel's comment has been deleted
Idd, but you're the 2 I remember, I had seen 2 more had just been posted
rep is earned and takes a long time to get, if you had a mass exist of high rep users the site is basically restarting in the way of who should be trusted.
More passive aggressive sniping on SE. That'll help <snark>: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/334000/…
@Magisch What about the avenues to change people's minds?
12:17
plus with the 200 per day cap getting high rep users is going to take a lot longer
@SébastienRenauld Obviously, it doesnt go like that in French, as you folks invented that helpful device to dislocate heads from shoulders, to improve the ability of bystanders to better listen what is said ...
@jpmc26 whose mind are you looking to change
@Magisch SO staff
@jpmc26 they dont read this
they dont even read meta
the only SO staff you can maybe find here are CMs, and if they had more influence we wouldn't be in this mess
Best case: we have relations to fix.
Worst case: we have a trainwreck to study in great detail.
12:19
You always have us? 🤷🏼‍♂️
The mods I've seen commenting on this are nearly all either really disappointed, resigned or are considering resigning
@StephanS The problem there is: not many people will be easily giving up all that "investment". And even when that happens, quite a lot of the more rep-hungry folks will love that situation. More questions that go unanswered, means more reputation for those left answering. And bonus: less pesky moderation and focus on quality.
Seriously: the rep hunter in me is just meowing for such days ....
user3956566
almost nobody is siding with the company here
so we can only wait for what happens next
@GhostCat If that happens to me, I promise to doff that owl mask and put on a vulture. Even though owls are scavengers as well.
12:22
@GeorgeStocker If people keep resigning then that "us" is going to be "me" though :)
@Magisch given what I know I believe they made the best choice they had under the circumstances. I am unclear as to why the timing was what it was, but I am trusting them when they say it was necessary. Unfortunately there isn’t a lot I can say.
user3956566
@Magisch I support the company in some ways over this. I think they've made a colossal bungle in how they've handled it. But hey, are they listening to me? Nope. Much of what I've said over the years has and continues to come to pass. My late husband and I ran a business. Nope - don't listen to the old woman who's been on the site for 8 years
@Magisch Okay, that's fair. I suppose the point here, then, is to share thoughts among ourselves for the purpose of spreading them, so that they can be further shared and interpreted in light of different experiences. This can lead to variations and different presentations on different ideas, which would hopefully reach SO staff via other means and cause them to reconsider their course.
Remember; there is the action, and then there is the PR/mitigation around the action
We can't really tell what happened with the action, since we don't have the info
user3956566
@SébastienRenauld and it's been a total bungle
12:24
@GeorgeStocker So there's more going on that a pre-emptive de-modding based on a potential violation of a new CoC?
user3956566
@Cerbrus it started a loooong time ago - way back when
@GeorgeStocker Unfortunately, what has been publicly said paints SE in a very bad light.
The best SE can do now is transparency.
You don't know this since you don't know what isn't transparent
user3956566
and no one can say anything about it - due to cone of silence
12:25
You know something isn't transparent, you don't know what that is
@GeorgeStocker Given what I know, I don't trust them when they say it was necessary... shrug
@Cerbrus I would say that with how things transpired, I would have likely made the same decision that was made if I were in charge.
What they need to do is actual community mediation
I think there should be a mass movement to Yahoo answers XD it's our only move
i.e. not a random copypasta then silence
12:26
Even knowing the outcome.
@Magisch I wouldn't count on that. Megan Risdal came through here yesterday, an hour or so before Sara posted her "answer". Probably to see how riled the waters were... (Not so much, at that point.)
If they were justified in removing the moderator, surely they can explain a thing or two
@StephanS What do you do with the wealth of prior art SO has, though. Like, just talking from rust they'd have a few man-years worth of KB to rebuild
and rust is not an active tag
(Which may or may not explain the license shift, BTW)
user3956566
@GeorgeStocker same, or similar, but made it much clearer between the parties concerned
@Cerbrus Maybe, but I can imagine that a couple of lawyers need to approve both things first.
user3956566
12:27
@Cerbrus it's been the site's policy to not do that. ever.
@Cerbrus In theory, someone could be fired for reasons that are clear only in messages that they may not make public.
user3956566
@Raedwald exactly
@Cerbrus How often do other companies make the reason of a firing public?
But then said user decides to go public.
@SébastienRenauld Everything was granted under a CC-BY-SA license (though now of disputed validity - good job SO) so you can move everything somewhere else as long as it's compliant
12:28
It's not uncommon for moderators to them provide context
user3956566
the thing is, it has been bungled in such a bad way. I don't know what they were thinking.
answer is pretty much never, since in any court that can be libel unless there is rock-solid evidence that it is true
user3956566
@Cerbrus with one side - there's multiple sides
@SébastienRenauld This isn't exactly an employment situation
@SébastienRenauld "I resent that, slander is spoken, when written it's libel"
12:29
@YvetteColomb Exactly... The user is already going public with their side, so what's the harm in leveling the playing field?
user3956566
36
Q: Resignation notice

AzaWhen efforts arise to formalize or corporatize a community, there's often understandable concern that the effort could destroy the very community it seeks to grow. [...] Any effort to grow will fail if members sense that the community leadership is neglecting important values or introducing unwel...

@OrangeDog has somebody lawyered up and proved solidly and without possibility for dismissal or interpretation that the change to the SO license to keep ownership a posteriori is incompatible with the prior license?
@NickA Didn't know, thanks for the correction! Editing
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely detest how this is (not) being handled
@SébastienRenauld A reference to a well known film, it is true however :)
user3956566
@Cerbrus it's unprofessional and I don't think it was handled well - which is why it has caused such a stir
12:30
@SébastienRenauld Not to my knowledge, though a number of people have said they will. Such a process will take months.
@SébastienRenauld let's calm down with the use of legal terms
That was kinda my point - so for a few months we have a choice to copy our own stuff elsewhere and risk lawyers, or to not do anything, until somebody clears it up
user3956566
the mods don't know the full picture - the way the team handled it with the mods was not good - the way the team handled it publicly was not good - probably didn't handle it well with monica - doesn't mean that there was no basis to begin with . does that make sense?
Sure
@YvetteColomb It makes sense, but that doesn't make it good enough
12:32
@YvetteColomb What is possible is not always probable. The reason people are siding against SO here is because given what information people do have, it's improbable that what you describe is the case.
Well, one interesting thing about all this is that I've never seen so many people listed in the pane at the right as participating (lurking) :-)
user3956566
as it is. I'm skirting a fine line. But there's been so much written publicly - there needs to be some level.
@CindyMeister it's a very sensitive issue, tbh
user3956566
@CindyMeister lmao! our little room is busy busy busy
honestly ... when you mods gonna learn, if you are good at something, never do it for free
12:33
You don't expect philosophy from nightclub bouncers. Once I saw a fight in a nightclub. The bouncers threw both the men out. Afterwards I approached one of the bouncers, and told him I saw which of the men had started the fight. His reply: "It takes two people to start a fight".
@SébastienRenauld if you want to ask a legal question about the license we would love to answer it over at Law.SE
user3956566
hey! I finally got my brumby into a large paddock with a herd! @CindyMeister @Cerbrus
@YvetteColomb What's the worst that can happen? You're not a mod.. :P
@SébastienRenauld I think you mean sensitive? In English, "sensible" means something quite different...
user3956566
@Cerbrus they could take legal action against us technically. we do accept a contract
12:33
@Cerbrus Slapped with a 5 year suspension I'd wager...
@Raedwald I don't think that analogy really applies to online interactions
@YvetteColomb Oh right
user3956566
and I'm not going to pollute my own values.. or put my head on that French block
Yea, that'd be bad
@CindyMeister Damnit, now everybody knows I'm french ;-)
user3956566
yes indeed
user3956566
12:34
@SébastienRenauld there was nothing about your name that gave that away at all :p
Funny how even after 20+ years in english-speaking countries, mistakes like these still happen
@SébastienRenauld This is good. This is how we can spot you French people.
France: Liberty, equality, fraternity. England: cup-of-tea.
user3956566
go watch the horses! it will cheer you up! She is a wild horse who has been trapped and had a hard time. she is now with friends
12:35
Cup of tea and brexit
@YvetteColomb Well he could have been from Belgium :)
@GeorgeStocker that's good to know
user3956566
@Gimby or China - he could live in China!
@Gimby I've lived in Belgium for more time than I have in France. Could also have been from Quebec
@GeorgeStocker Thats the clincher isnt it. For this to be justifiable in any way there'd have to be some real revelations we cant see
12:36
or one of the french-speaking countries in Africa, for that matter
@YvetteColomb And all are still hale and healthy :-)? We brought ours back from pasture, yesterday. Too wet... But that required a massive amount of work to get things ready. Not like we hadn't had four months to do it in, but didn't. All is well, though!
they must know we wont take their word for it
so why?
They might be stuck between a rock and a hard place
misclick
Consider the following hypothetical situation: they have info we don't, but throwing it out there would mean even more stuff gets dug up/hypothesized
if that's the case, they have an incentive to not say anything
user3956566
12:37
@CindyMeister my herds are really well. My old girl is holding her own with weight- still needs more, but getting there. All in all good. Yeh, we're in Spring and the rain is good, so we get pasture. It would be expensive bringing them in from pasture :/
@SébastienRenauld I didn't tell them, you did :-) But I do understand about the confusion with this particular pair of words since the Swiss (with a massive French influence on their dialect) use "sensible" the same way. Still drives me a bit nuts, but less since I started dreaming in the language...
One problem with all of this is they don't say when they cannot say. "Our lawyers will not allow us to say" or "A response is being prepared but may take x weeks" would go so far to improving things,
@YvetteColomb hey you... hope you're well... just thought I'd let ya know I'm still blaming you for YT keep suggesting horse related videos :p
Would've definitely been better than the copypasta, but what happens if you do state that and don't deliver?
@SébastienRenauld arguably still better than the alternative
user3956566
12:39
@Magisch inaction for too long - not their fault - no money was put into site development - at one point they retrenched staff due to lack of $$ (this is all public). Then they do get $$ for development, but it's been after years of features requests waiting and then with a dogmatic approach of do it our way or the highway - doesn't shore up community faith. I've told them this repeatedly. I've offered to help them, as I have a good relationship with our community.
Only state that if you know you're going to deliver. If you're not then say that you're not, for legal reasons.
@OrangeDog Ok first Lawyers can't stop clients from speaking, no matter how much they wish they could
user3956566
@JonClements oh yeh! Love you and miss you!!! xoxoxoxoxox
user3956566
next episode: yvette goes to court for sexual harassment
The legal council of a company can totally stop employees from speaking. Otherwise at minimum they'll lose their jobs.
2
12:40
Jon and Yvette, sitting in a tree. K.I.S.pom pom pom that's... pretty wrong.
@StephanS Contracts can obligate silence, though. Saying, "Our lawyers will not allow ____" implies that the lawyers are advising on some legal basis such as a contract or a law.
user3956566
@OrangeDog absolutely and the way to handle those situations is tricky at best.
user3956566
@Gimby ewwww gross lol
@YvetteColomb hahaha.... friendly hug back at ya... don't sue me, I won't sue you? :p
Or just "we are not at liberty to explain" if it's some other management or they like the lawyers
user3956566
12:41
@JonClements nah, not at all
@jpmc26 then it's not the Lawyer stopping you from speaking it's the NDA
@StephanS no, it's your boss, and the terms of your employment
user3956566
@JonClements the horses are good - I should be moving onto a property and living with them soon I hope. Will give me a billion more times and make life easier and happier
@StephanS For the layman, there isn't really a difference. The lawyer is the face and personality of the things they're advising on.
you don't have a contract with your boss
you have a contract with the company
user3956566
12:42
ok I g2g
user3956566
bye all
Take care
@StephanS are you trolling? You will be fired if you directly go against the instructions of your management.
@YvetteColomb sounds great... good luck with that... just glad to know you're well and looking forward :)
user3956566
@AndrasDeak you too
12:43
Hey, Jon
cbg @Andras...
It's not a gun that kills you, it's the blood loss caused by vascular perforations.
user3956566
@JonClements thanks pup - here's some scooby snacks - if you bite you may be able to get popcorn from @NickA or @Zoe
@JohnDvorak now that's an original take I haven't heard before.
@YvetteColomb you know I don't bite... I'm a cutey wutey puppy wuppy :)
but for some decent popcorn... might be worth giving it a go :p
12:45
For example, Tim has clearly been instructed to not answer any legal queries about licensing, so he isn't going to. All we can hope is he (or someone else, or some legal action) changes someone's mind about it.
2
tosses popcorn at Jon, here you go
@JonClements I was joking, but now I'm about ready to start singing again.
@NickA yay! happy puppy!
gently pats Jon
F
@GeorgeStocker You would not have given Monica a chance to step down of her own accord first?
12:58
You heard him, twice

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