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12:37 AM
queue "All posts deleted...show up in search results"
 
 
6 hours later…
6:18 AM
In case I didn't mention it before, I set up a SEDE query to help with canonicalizing duplicates: https://data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/1628287/duplicates-of-duplicates-of-a-canonical
actually I'm pretty sure I mentioned it before, but tonight I patched it to skip deleted questions.
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Maybe it's every post that was deleted by Roomba (but manually deleted stuff is fine)?
 
@KarlKnechtel Nah, Henry demonstrated that it's only something like 40% of roomba'd posts.
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Alternately, it could be that other bug where posts that get deleted don't actually end up deleted :-)
That still happens from time to time.
See, e.g., this spam post (10k link)
 
the bot locked it instead of deleting? o_O
 
It's supposed to lock and delete it. It did cast a delete vote, but that delete vote did not result in the post being...well, deleted.
Until a moderator came along and unlocked it, then flagged the post again for the bot to take a second try at actually deleting it.
 
7:04 AM
0
Q: Non-first question in first question review queue

Donald SeinenI came across this item in the first question review queue. It was Not the first question of the user, Removed. It probably is one of those are you paying attention? questions. Tags look OK, Generally nicely formatted. Reproducible, 1 spelling mistake, Horizontal scroll bar & perhaps unnecessa...

 
 
1 hour later…
8:23 AM
@NewPosts Ugh, typo questions make awful audits...
Not sure if it shows the comments pointing out the "typo" though in the fake audit view
IIRC it does. That would be fair, then.
Although in that particular case, there's a colorable argument that it's a legit misunderstanding rather than a close-worthy typo.
 
9:22 AM
0
Q: If a post I edited gets downvoted, will I lose reputation too?

Nicholas ObertThe question title pretty much says it all. What would happen if I edited some user's post on Stack Overflow and said post gets downvoted? Would both the original poster and I lose reputation, or would only the OP be affected? Theoretically, the post is a product of the OP and of my edits, so wou...

 
 
3 hours later…
12:25 PM
20k and posting on MSO? With a question that would definitely be POB for main, as well?
(waiting for Feeds to announce it)
Well, it was deleted. Just for context:
 
12:50 PM
We should throw a "try to impress a veteran SO user" competition.
 
@VLAZ linkie pl0x
I think I know who that is already
 
I did not know who that was
oh well
Properly gone
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine The user is not gone.
 
Meant the post :p
 
1:40 PM
-2
Q: Bringing politics on SO profiles

serhioAs already discussed here or here on bringing politics on SO profiles, I note also the @Brad-Larson's remark on Avatars and usernames are visible on every post a user makes, and people coming here to read programming questions and answers see them. A user profile is something you have to make a ...

 
@VLAZ as a consolation prize, it's a nice The Daily WTF entry :)
@NewPosts oh, boy. Also, cc @ZoestandswithUkraine
 
@KarlKnechtel dunno - seeing deleted posts in search while lacking the privilege is weird enough for me. Probably one of the recent deploys screwed something up with a guard for "has 10k or is mod ? post : skip".
in other news: the API is severely broken for a week now
 
You know what? I'm staying out of that clusterfuck
@Larnu you said "they are free to change freely" — serhio 1 min ago
:facedesk:
there's a cross-site and/or on-site dupe for this btw. I can't be arsed to dig it up, but it should be added early, before it spirals further
wait, no, they're linked
never mind
 
1:56 PM
@ZoestandswithUkraine the best idea :)
something's telling me we have another MSO drama of the week in making
 
I mean it is annoying when a prominent user changes their username, not gonna lie. I would love a feature that let users of some certain rep threshold view username change history
 
Eh
There's good reasons not to though
we have good reasons when we clear usernames, so a complete username history is not a good idea
 
I went full Meta
 
well, I can't say I feel very comfortable (for obvious reasons) when I come across their current username, but they are in their right to do so, methinks, @TylerH. What's a bit annoying is trying to understand who you are communicating with to establish context when drastic username changes happen, though, I agree
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine Well, yeah, I didn't mention any of the implementation details that would be necessary for such a feature, I was just daydreaming :-P
 
2:04 PM
there's also a mod that cleared their username, and while I'm not sure why they did that, they're well within their right to decide how they present on the site. So are everyone else, for that matter
 
seeing username history - dunno, it feels like allowing everyone to view users' suspension history might be a bit problematic
 
If we wanna talk implementation details, I'd specifically say mods would need the ability to redact usernames from history, and it would require a rep threshold of 10k at least
 
But what's the value on that?
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine on what, specifically? on the feature at large, or on one of the details?
 
on the other hand, if done properly, it can be an interesting privilege. It's not like it's private information. There's an elephant in the room, though, "properly" :) Which is... doubtful when it comes to SE
 
2:07 PM
You get to see the history, but what about everyone else? What prevents you from then just going back in the internet archive, or checking elections in the case of mods?
No one <10k get that luxury, and <10k makes up the vast majority of users
 
My argument for 10k is to reduce the amount of calls to the database, to be clear
 
yay, I've been accused of spam for linking to UNICEF and non-commercial orgs that provie humanitarian aid to UA :)
 
However, to your first two points, there's no guarantee that the internet archive will have a record of the information I want
and election pages are the same; they pull the live username. Aaron's name on the 2016 election page is his 'remove putin' name, for example
Maybe you have not had this issue, but I have spent several minutes many times trying to hunt through site history to find the previous username of users before
including for moderators
 
election pages are weird as hell in that regards. They also pull live badge status, so the candidate score is complete bull a couple of years after the election ends.
 
Well, yeah, elections need a lot of TLC as it is
 
2:16 PM
0
Q: This is bug? How I posted a comment with a reputation below 50

Tudor DevizaI wrote an answer to one question (very short answer) and it was automatically transferred to the comments section, but I can't write a comment because my reputation is below 50, is this a bug or a feature? XD

 
@TylerH I have done it once, on the mod who cleared their username. Aside that, it's usually trivial to recognize people where I care enough to check
 
I'm usually able to find comment history (one or two times I was not able to/ran out of time) that mentions the old name, yes, but the point of the feature is to save time
 
@TylerH yeah - and I am too of the opinion that user info (name, status, etc) should be frozen in place once the election ends. With the current setup, it's extremely difficult to trace the history unless you are established enough to know where to look for clues
 
In a single click I could see at least what the user's most previous username is (if it has not been redacted)
 
frankly, the only thing that stops me from seriously considering such a feature is that SE doesn't, unfortunately, seem to be able to deal with maintaining the current codebase. Judging from the recent updates breaking vital things (like exposing individual votes to mods, breaking the API, leaking deleted posts in search, etc), the tech debt is so massive that touching one thing causes a domino effect
 
2:29 PM
Please. My inbox. It's very full of messages
 
@E_net4thecommentflagger E_net4 full of messages
 
@E_net4thecommentflagger Oh no
 
E_net4 is political
 
Good answer from Bella
 
yup-yup, hopefully it will contain the trash fire
 
2:47 PM
A good point that I probably should have referred: prefer flagging over posting on Meta for these things.
Odd that I overlooked it. Flagging is my life.
 
I would remark also such a spam like @OlegValteriswithUkraine profie "For non-monetary help: Host Ukrainians and Help Locally" with links to funding of some organizations — serhio 48 mins ago
Should I remove the spam in my profile to public documentation, then?
 
yes
 
@VLAZ absolutely! Promoting a service is unacceptable /s
 
@TylerH I completely understand that. There are some users who I do want to recognise. For example, I might even search for their posts (in an external search engine) because I know it's canonical but site search somehow doesn't help in finding it by any other criteria.
With that said, I also see the flip side of this. When changing a username, you might not want your old one to remain.
 
I'm of the opinion that this case is one that should result in a name change. Regardless of your stance on the whole topic, calling for the ouster of the leader of a country, by it's own people, when there's no method for that to occur other than through violence, is in fact a call for violence... there's better ways to present that message
 
2:55 PM
For example, you had your full name there and you don't want it visible for whatever reason. It's quite valid to not show it, nor allow any regular user to see the history.
 
0
Q: Is the [attribute] tag appropriate for gcc __attribute__'s

Daniel WalkerI've seen several questions concerning gcc's __attribute__s tagged with attributes. That tag is described as The attributes tag should be used for any issues relating to a property of an object, element, or file, etc. The use of this tag in such questions seems unclear at best. Would a new tag...

 
@NewPosts Fortunately, we also have someone having "Glory to Russia" as a profile name, and that is also acceptable
 
3:55 PM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine yeah things are not great right now
 
4:20 PM
@TylerH only fitting fpr the current world-wide situation :) although the amount of bugs is truly astounding lately
 
4:49 PM
@VLAZ Yeah there are definitely multiple situations which are perfectly reasonable to redact
Gender changes also; I don't begrudge someone wanting to avoid deadnaming, etc.
But unrelated changes or pseudonym to pseudonym changes, for example, "RazorUnicorn" -> "user108344" or "Aaron Hall" -> "Putin must be removed"... yeah no; we ought to be able to see what their previous acct name was
 
@TylerH For high-profile users, there usually is. For everyone else, again, why does it matter?
@TylerH yes, but there's a link to Aaron's profile with Aaron's old username. Many other nominations also flat out include a header with their username at the time, or possibly real name depending on the person. (Assuming username != real name, of course)
@TylerH Not just that. Some people change names for other reasons. Some people change their name to disassociate with an abusive past. Some people suddenly realized they don't want their account associated with their full name. The list goes on and on. And for all of those, there's a redaction request
And for each redaction request, there's a flag we mods have to deal with, and a button we have to press, and that's such a waste of time. Displaying more information in public with a redaction feature always means more mod workload, unless you offload the option to users (such as Steam did, though only with display names), but if you do that, users can just wipe their own username history on their own
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine "there usually is" still == "there is no guarantee". And I don't want to have to spend the time stepping further and further back in time on a 3rd party site to see what someone's SO username is. That should be self-explanatory
@ZoestandswithUkraine Where? I did not see it. stackoverflow.com/election/8 and the list of elections in general all show his current name
@ZoestandswithUkraine So, are you missing the part where I have mentioned multiple times the opportunity for moderators to redact username history?
If someone is trying to escape abuse, I would consider that a reasonable condition for redaction
@ZoestandswithUkraine I think the benefit would outweigh the cost in terms of extra work, personally.
 
@TylerH But why do you need to know? How does it help you to know what someone was once named? There's only two categories of importance, and that's high-profile users and mods. With sufficiently high-profile users, it's trivial. If Jon Skeet suddenly changes his name, you can still connect the dots trivially
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine Various reasons. Not only is it not trivial often, but I like to know who is authoring certain content or make sure I'm not seeing plagiarism, etc.
 
@TylerH That message was background for the next message. I did not miss the bit where redaction was an intended feature
@TylerH And now we suddenly have a list for what does or doesn't constitute redactions, which itself causes meta posts, and is yet another thing to keep track of
@TylerH Are you missing the part where we have over 20 million users? I don't think you quite understand how often usernames are changed just for the sake of privacy alone
 
5:01 PM
@ZoestandswithUkraine if you're concerned that making a change to the site means changes will come to the site, well, yes. That's not going to get any sympathy from me because that's how things always work
@ZoestandswithUkraine Where do you see "aaron hall" there? I see "Russia must remove Putin"
 
we get flags regularly about removing old names from comments. Slapping a username history in people's faces will increase that volume substantially
@TylerH read the preview in the bottom left corner
 
That's not really discoverable. If I don't happen to look at it when I hover over the link to the username, or if I don't click on the username at all, I won't see it
 
@TylerH I welcome change, but I'm not a fan of the bickering it comes with in this case. names are often deeply personal, and changes come with deeply rooted personal reasons. Fights over that are messy
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine Why? Wouldn't it decrease the number of flags if users know the history is still viewable even after the name change? Or do you mean it would increase the number of redaction flags (which is currently zero as it's about a feature that doesn't exist)?
 
@TylerH people who change their names usually want it gone afterwards
 
5:05 PM
@ZoestandswithUkraine I agree names are personal, but pseudonyms on a random website aren't necessarily that. Arguably they should not ever be, unless you're using your real name for your SO/SE name, it really shouldn't matter if users can see what the history is. Unless you have a good reason to hide it (e.g. harassment)
 
If there's a history, they panic and want it gone
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine OK, so sounds like you are talking about the latter, then
 
@TylerH and yet, that often isn't the case. People use their full real names and regret it
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine Again, notice the "unless" in front of the real name sentence
 
 
2 hours later…
6:51 PM
I have some quite personal pseudonyms but back when I joined stack overflow I think I expected it to be relevant to my professional development.
 
7:12 PM
Yeah, I used to use my full name on SO. Quickly changed that after getting into curation.
It's still my real name, and it's still possible to figure out who I am if you look hard enough, but usually angry people aren't that determined...
Usually people are content with a bit of revenge downvoting.
 
7:28 PM
I like downvoting. Not the revenge kind, though.
 
I like trains
 
 
1 hour later…
8:56 PM
gosh, I thought the fire was put out
 
Another CM joined the discussion so now there are two competing views...
something something xkcd about competing standards
 
well, more like what happens if there is no formal policy
 
but but but some people said some things in the past that i want to use as precedent!
 
9:14 PM
It's news to me that we don't have a policy, given, y'know, the previous policy-sounding answers from staff...
I imagine the intent there was to say that we don't have a policy forbidding political content in usernames. Of course, I can't say for sure.
 
0
Q: org.apache.axis2.kernel not found

Michael ChenI generated axis2 client stub code with axis2 1.7.0, with "-d adb". The stub contains a line: org.apache.axis2.kernel.TransportUtils.detachInputStream(_returnMessageContext); and then compilation error "org.apache.axis2.kernel not found". What is the jar (groupId/artifactId) file containing that...

 
I think the company wants to avoid making any blanket (comprehensive) policy that they could be held to, which is understandable. So far the policy posts have been quite specific: certain political content is forbidden/allowed, while pointing out that it shouldn't be generalized. In this case, I'm not sure why they aren't coming out and saying "Anti-Putin political statements are acceptable in usernames/profiles" since that certainly seems to be the company's (and popular) sentiment.
 
of course
they want to be able to pick and choose what's acceptable. They've always allowed the name that's specifically crafted to get people blocked from viewing so from within china's firewall, for whatever reason, that's a case where the message isn't a call for violence. this case on the other hand..
Would a similar message against the leader of any other country be allowed?
 
9:40 PM
@KevinB isn't it something like "Xi Jinping is a pooh bear"?
but in Mandarin
 
effectively
 
@KevinB Pretty sure Ciro's done something like that.
Don't quote me on that, though, I can't remember every iteration of that profile...
 
If only we all had access to username history, we could just go look for ourselves... whistles
 
Mods don't even have full username history
it only goes back so far
 
@KevinB It's an interesting question in the general case. Would a username saying "USA must remove Biden", with a call to US citizens to take to the streets to overthrow Biden by any means possible, be acceptable? I don't know. It probably depends on the individual CMs, how many complaints they get about it, etc. But with regards to Putin, it seems quite clear that it's acceptable (and I don't mean because of the recent MSO post, but this has come up several times recently on both MSO and MSE)
 
9:45 PM
Oh, actually maybe we can if we look elsewhere...
Yeah, we can, it's just extra clicks and there's no indication if it wasn't recent.
Also username history wouldn't get you profile history
 
I guess what i'm getting at is, there's no line, by design, and I don't see much difference between the current case and the name instead calling for an assassination.
 
Also with username history there's too much risk of personal information exposure, IMHO.
 
Yes, the profile clarifies it, but... i also find that what is being asked for in the profile is absurd. like saying hey we need to stop this train, how many people need to stand in front of it
 
My understanding of the policy is that "USA must remove Biden" would be fine, while calling for an assassination would not because it's more of a direct attack than a policy opinion? It's admittedly not a very clear policy.
We often send the borderline cases to CMs because the policy is a bit unclear.
 
in the case of USA, there is a path to the goal that doesn't include violence
with Russia on the other hand..
 
9:50 PM
Well, the bar is whether it's offensive, not whether it's absurd ;) But I see what you mean: maybe the company isn't comfortable with the message in the profile. It'll be interesting to see what happens. Any action/inaction will be a good indicator of whether they find this acceptable, or not.
 
10:05 PM
FWIW, I feel that user profile pages shouldn't be moderated at all. We already allow unlimited amounts of profanity and spam there, so why bother moderating specific political messages? Usernames and avatars on the other hand are much trickier; they appear everywhere on posts and comments, and are unavoidably linked to the content, so some amount of moderation is definitely required. I don't have any good suggestions for how to deal with that.
 
I agree wrt profile pages
usernames on the other hand appear in passing. you might cross them on a question list, a review queue, an answer, search results,
it's a different level of visibility
also find it... frustrating, that they apply this in a way that is clearly political, at least from my PoV. It's not that i support what russia is doing, it's that if we're gonna say it's crossing the line to say you support russia in your username/profile... but it's not crossing the line tos ay you support ukrain similarly, it's just ugly policy. Do away with all of it, keep your activism to twitter
put another way, when you're getting into the business of what kinds of activisim is acceptable to the point where you're allowing A to do X but not B, it's no longer an open welcoming place
 
10:30 PM
@cigien I thought we enforced rules against gratuitous profanity in profiles. We do allow spam, though, which is...sometimes unfortunate.
 
I really hate having to do it, but this is one of the few instances on the site where I've given up all hope for consistency. The issue is that there are many users (including some current site moderators) who will fight hard for the right to make political statements in their usernames. However, there are also many users who will fight hard to disallow certain political statements.
Of course, each side feels they're being reasonable (as is usually the case when it comes to politics), but often the definitions of "reasonable" vary widely, and are sometimes in direct conflict with each other. I don't see any way out of it, unfortunately, other than for the company to just say that all political messages are disallowed. I'm not optimistic about them attempting such a move though.
I guess SO could have a site-specific policy, which wouldn't require the company's involvement, but I don't see that happening either.
 
(I haven't personally had to handle a flag for a profane profile, so I haven't had to familiarize myself with the rules, so don't quote me on that.)
 
This is the canonical on MSE I think. It mentions Welbog's profile, which until it was edited, was very profane. Also hilarious, but definitely contained lots of vulgarity. But as the answers say, profanity is allowed, and won't be removed. Basically, hate speech and hard-core pornography are the only things that are removed.
And of course, now things like "Z"-imagery are removed, but I think the argument is that that falls under hate speech.
 
On the other hand, Welbog's profile was, eventually, cleared.
 
Was that done by Welgog themself, or by a mod/staff?
 
10:39 PM
So...idk. I no longer have any idea what the policy is.
Moderator
They could, of course, have been mistaken about the policy.
 
There's other related posts about this. My general impression is that the profanity alone is not an issue (in any quantity), it's only an issue if it's directed at specific people/groups of people. Of course, individual mods may interpret this differently, and so the actual enforcement might vary widely.
Another one meta.stackexchange.com/questions/31197 (also possibly Welbog related) that indicates that the profanity alone is not an issue.
 
I’d be fine with either outcome, enforce it or not, but not let’s enforce it when it goes against our ideals
It’s the same kind of crap we’re dealing with in politics these days. “What? I’m just the messenger, it’s not my fault if it’s fake, I’m just repeating what someone else said!”
> X is offensive because we decided to interpret it as Y
 
11:18 PM
btw, am I the only one interpreting "take to the streets" as "go protest" and not as "take guns and overthrow the government"?
@cigien frankly, I think they are doing the right thing by avoiding defining a clear policy and acting on a case-by-case basis. As soon as they define a clear policy, there's bound to be a flame war.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine i'd assume that's what most take it as. however, it's the same messaging coming from certain people in the US that is being called calls for violence
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
@KevinB I suppose it can - I lack some context by being on the outside of the US political situation. I just get a feeling that the OP interpreted that as calling for violence, vut I struggle to make that leap after analysing the rest of the quote. IDK, though
 
it's a call to action to do something that is, due to the overall message, insinuated as being something that can result in the removal of Putin
would daily protests between now and the end of the year be able to perform that action?
 
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ none have resulted in anything substantial so far
 
but, i don't have an issue with their profile itself
like, calling for protests, sure
protests in russia often result in violence of one form or another due to it being, well, illegal
 
11:33 PM
heh, I know. Usually from the law enforcement
 
but i don't think that's the problem
 
I am pretty sure the offended user considered it as a direct call to violence whereas I can't read the profile with that interpretation no matter how I try. It's basically a "do what you can" kind of statement.
 
I could see it being interpreted as placing blame
for example, say you live in a country with a radical leader that can't be voted out by the people. now imagine someone from the outside telling you you just need to try harder.
 
I live in that country :)
 
oh, right
but still
 
11:37 PM
but I understand what you mean
that stings a bit, yeah (as in "well, try saying that if you're the one facing huge fines or 5-10 years in prison"), but I am fine with the sting (IDK if others will agree) - after all, it is the fear for well-being of oneself and close ones that keeps many (me included) from not doing much
anyways, that post opened a very nasty can of worms
 
it just seems really short-sighted to me. almost... it's not my problem-ish, to say oh, that's something the people of russia should fix. ? it's gonna take that and much more
but i think that's straying a bit from whether or not the username should be changed,
:p
its easy for me to sit here in Mississippi and just say whatever, living in one of the poorest states of the nation with a cushy job
 
@KevinB yup, that's something I agree in general - it's not very helpful in terms of actions (like saying "People of USSR should overthrow Stalin"). Actually one of the reasons I chose to list well-known charities in the profile - at least people can do some good for normal folks.
@KevinB yeah :) dunno, though, seems like if the company ends up forcing the change, it will create a dangerous precedent
 
I don't think it's feasable to police usernames across the board with a strict policy
 
well, I suppose it won't be that hard, but it will consistently create dramas that need CM involvement
 
more, i'd prefer people of standing within the community police themselves
 
11:50 PM
and it will likely open a giant can of worms
 
;)
idunno. it's a different state of mind, a different set of priorities
from my pov the goal should be not being visible unless necessary
this is the opposite of that
 
@KevinB yeah, I'd much rather see that too
@KevinB there's a well-known phrase that I like in that sense: "the best government is that which governs least"
which I'd modify to say "that has to govern least"
 

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