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12:16 AM
I've been getting a feeling lately that feature requests to SE started to speed up in completion rates, that's refreshingly nice
 
 
1 hour later…
1:38 AM
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Q: Asked a valid, usefule, and necessary question, and asked it well. Got down voted

Triangle4I got down voted, when asking a solid, well written question. I recently got question banned and as a result I am very careful when writing a question. Today, I asked a new Question and within 5 minutes was down-voted. A good question has the following: (FYI in this question, this demonstrates re...

0
Q: How should I respond to an incorrect comment or answer?

Mr DeveloperIf a person has, say, incorrect syntax in an answer, one can simply edit. However, how can I respond to an entirely incorrect comment or answer, such as one that is simply unhelpful or doesn't actually solve the problem? The Not an Answer flag isn't correct here because it is an answer, just enti...

 
2:20 AM
0
Q: Where's Next.js in the SO 2021 Dev Survey?

Brent AriasI have the impression that Next.js is much more popular than Gatsby, but the SO developer survey didn't even mention Next.js. Is there something I'm overlooking?

 
@NewPosts [status-whocares]
 
@NewPosts [status-if-we-were-to-create-a-post-for-each-omission-in-the-developer-survey-it-would-supply-meta-with-posts-for-a-year]
also, yeah, I think it is present
 
2:39 AM
I'm tempted to hammer it closed as "does not appear to seek input and discussion from the community" but I want to go do other things and not sit around in case it gets clarified to something useful.
 
I mean... a closure (even by a mod) can be reversed by community as needed so... go for it?
 
...fair. Commented again & done.
 
2:59 AM
Wait... I just realised it was asking about last year's survey. That is even stranger. o_O
 
3:13 AM
Yes, that was why I was flummoxed as to the point of the question.
It is also asking about surveys "perhaps as far back as 2018"
 
... don't get us started musing about the questionable options on the Survey? ;p
(I personally didn't really care, but browsing the existing meta posts...)
 
Preferably stick to musing about questionable options on this year's survey ;-)
 
3:33 AM
sigh... being called toxic by the OP for a comment referencing that another user's comment was problematic because they somehow took it as referencing their comments. Sigh.
 
(not on SO, and I shared the pain...)
 
3:55 AM
oh, look, also got a parting downvote :) (which haven't happened in quite a while)
 
> Anyways, this is misuse of comments. Comments are not for debating philosophy nor for splitting hairs.
uhh, who started it?
 
Ha @CodyGray, we both jumped on "elegant"
 
Elegantly.
Just like how we both jumped on "connect with my peers".
 
the comment thread under your answer is getting more bizarre by the minute (literally)
 
@CodyGray Yep, I wasn't going to comment on it until they mentioned "nor have I anywhere Implied that"
I also very nearly told them that their definition of peer was far too specific, and that it's really much broader than just work
 
4:02 AM
Yes, the whole thing is very bizarre
It seems like they are completely backtracking now, and digging in on an entirely irrelevant debate
 
Best of luck to them in developing their own site.
 
Ugh, yeah. Totally ignored that one.
 
sorry, i bit
 
No! Bad dog! It's already got a pending "too many comments" flag, which I'm avoiding handling since it's my own post.
And that's probably why folks seem to think SO is unfriendly. Sometimes when you have questions, you just have questions. — jmarkmurphy 11 hours ago
Yes!
SO is unfriendly. There, I said it. It's hostile to questions that don't meet its requirements or expectations. The very act of building content is inherently violent, and building/curating high-quality content is even more so.
 
hostile != unfriendly
 
4:10 AM
When you aim for high quality, you're going to have to delete things that aren't high quality.
Yeah, we're not hostile.
But we're also not a place you should expect to go and get a warm reception just because you happen to have a question.
I have all kinds of questions all day long, but I don't just go post them here.
 
Earlier today I had a question
It was, should I have lemon or lime in my gin?
 
That's not even a question!
Obviously a lime.
Why would you even consider a lemon when you could have a lime?
 
Ah, I would normally say a lime
 
The only time the answer is "a lemon" is when you are out of limes.
 
but I already needed a small amount of lemon juice for a risotto that I was making, so the lemon was on hand.
 
4:12 AM
Ah, I see...
 
get the limeon then
 
So convenience was threatening to win over good sense/taste.
 
Well, risotto sounds delicious
 
And being the sucker for convenience that I am, after squeezing lemon juice into the risotto, I chucked the two lemon halves into a glass and filled it with gin
 
4:13 AM
That must have been a pretty large glass, to accommodate an entire lemon, plus a reasonable quantity of gin.
 
It was not a particularly large lemon
but it is a large glass :p
 
Lemons are larger than life limes by nature
So I would say any lemon is certainly large enough to fill a glass
I feel like you forgot the essential step of twisting the lemon, though, to extract that oil from its peel.
 
It was not a large lemon.
 
I think Andrew was right, it's a limeon.
Wow, thanks, Cassie, for that "Informational Guide".
> So you can be forgiven for thinking they are the same fruit.
Haha, absolutely not.
 
Not even remotely lol
@CodyGray Lemon had already been zested
 
4:18 AM
Oh, you zested it into the risotto?
 
f**k, I just nearly tested my "unfollow all posts on the site in bulk" script on my MSE account
 
Would that be bad?
 
damn ya'll with all the lime talk :)
@CodyGray 2800+ follows nearly gone before I noticed, yeah
 
That's a heck of a lot of noise
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Juice be happy!
It's just some fruit for thought. Can't you peel the love in the air?
Don't go out of your rind
Or get all sour on me
 
4:21 AM
oh, no, it's time for juicy puns...
 
You can't concentrate?
 
@CodyGray nah, not really - I just keep track of a lot of posts
 
That would really grate on me
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Ooooh! I like this! This is cute!
 
The situation certainly squeezed a lot of nerves out of me
 
@CodyGray I think it's time to give it a zest.
 
4:23 AM
@CodyGray courtesy of the former resident squirrel, no less!
 
Ah, really? I guess I never saw that discussion.
 
I think it happened a long time ago
 
Before I started paying attention?
 
@AndrewT. We did use comments for debating philosophy, then @RyanM killed all the fun!
 
4:27 AM
definitely - at least it was educational compared to the rest of discussion :)
 
@CodyGray :) :( :| :/
 
The stages of reading Meta
"I don’t think it’s arguable the second slide is better than the first." this seems rather close-minded. — aquirdturtle 7 hours ago
 
:) :( :| :/ (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
 
@CodyGray Yes. It's called... an opinion 🙌
I, also, <3 punctuation.
 
@CodyGray first time ever that I got RESULT_CODE_HUNG from opening that page
 
4:31 AM
I have never heard of RESULT_CODE_HUNG.
But I don't routinely look at the console when browsing the web.
 
@CodyGray the page just... died, it's a crash code. Since I also got rate-limited right after, I suspect one of the huge bunch of userscripts has a problem
 
Perhaps a userscript that doesn't like non-SO sites? :-)
 
looks like one of them breaks on sites you don't have an account on :) Now I need to find which one is it (when the rate-limit expires that is)
 
For now, you're stuck in chat
 
yup, literally
well, unless I fire up the VPN, I guess
ok, seems like all's fine already. Went to squash the bastard that got me there, brb :)
 
4:37 AM
Wouldn't that be me? :-p
 
@CodyGray rate-limit? don't think so :) I suspect I know the "offending" script, but hope to be able to check without getting rate-limited again
 
Oh, no, I mean I'm the bastard who sent you there
 
oh, to the page :)
 
I created the page fault
 
5:01 AM
Grumble!
 
yeah, seems like one of the userscripts made a huge number of requests upon opening the page - somewhere, there is an unchecked recursion... Hope it did not get me too deep into the rate limit
 
5:26 AM
Groan, sometimes I wish mods could undelete (presumably) self deleted comments
 
They can
Vandalism of content is still vandalism of content
Even if it's on Meta, and even if it's a comment
 
I thought they were the only ones they couldn't undelete
 
No, we can undelete any comment
 
Oh
But it's hidden away in their account or some shit rather than on the Q page directly IIRC ?
 
Yeah, you have to go to the full comment history for the user in order to undelete them.
Of course, there is a userscript that adds the "Undelete" link inline.
 
5:32 AM
Ah, that'll be why I was getting confused: inconsistent, (but consistently) bad design.
 
5:50 AM
Well, there was some thought put into it
You generally don't want to be undeleting things that a user chose to delete themselves.
So it makes sense not to have that as something too readily accessible, where it could be easily misclicked.
A lot of the scripts SO mods use would lead to chaos if they were released to the mods on other network sites. Just too many dangerous buttons to accidentally click and/or not understand.
 
Strictly speaking, the check is "is the user who deleted this currently a moderator"
This is...not the right check, for many reasons.
for example, without scripts, I don't have an inline undelete link for this comment, because Oleg isn't a moderator.
 
On SE, OP is a king moderator.
hmm, did I mess up..?
 
I have no idea?
 
6:06 AM
@RyanM Workaround: elect Oleg as moderator, undelete the comment, unelect Oleg.
 
oh yeh, I messed up. brain fart. it's the check to show the delete link for comment, not to hide...
 
Why do we need to unelect Oleg?
 
It's a temporary workaround, so a temporary mod position.
 
But I still need him with mod privileges to develop and debug scripts, so the purpose has not been fulfilled yet.
 
o_O what did I miss?
Good news: rate-limit subsided. Bad news: I am an idiot.
3
 
6:20 AM
Further bad news: you're being elected as a moderator
 
they day keeps getting worse!
 
You get... used to it... ?
 
to days getting worse? :) pretty much used to it
 
I meant being a moderator, but, yeah, that, too
 
I know, but could not resist a political jab :)
 
6:37 AM
Hey, you're not the one whose country is being invaded by your country!
 
I'm pleased you understood that
 
7:20 AM
Ugh, I regret reading that Meta Q
 
It's reasonable that you left it open-ended as to which one.
 
8:14 AM
Hmm, this is getting ridiculous - now I am getting rate-limited on an unrelated mobile network, but on the offending one limit expired
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine maybe the mobile network is NATing heavily and your IP is shared?
 
I assume you are not using the script on the mobile network?
 
@RyanM likely, but rate-limiting on that network happened only a couple of times during the time when SE issued draconian rate-limits trying to battle a DDoS
@CodyGray nope, and the script is fixed too, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I guess I am just unlucky today
 
> Now with this change that you plan, I think it is the perfect moment for splitting the total reputation into: Answerer Reputation; Questioner Reputation; No content Reputation
I'm getting increasingly convinced that the reputation system is so fundamentally broken that almost any redesign of it is corrupted from the start.
 
@VLAZ haven't you heard? How else would users get privileges? /s
 
8:26 AM
:(
Wait, I know the answer! By educating users in the comments, right?
 
correct! You just won a prize mod message :) Btw, what I alluded to above is actually an argument that was made
 
I'm aware. Which is why I'm sad.
 
don't be! Everything is fine, don't you know?
 
Serious question: why do people think it is OK for them to educate new users about how the site is supposed to work in the comments section, but go apoplectic over the idea of a moderator educating them in the moderator messages section?
 
In sort of related news, I had a recent argument with a friend. It was about game design but it touched on similar fundamentals. My stance was that levels in games are usually implemented badly. They are mostly there to level-gate content. Which when examined further is just circular - you need levels in order to have levels
@CodyGray Double standards.
Anyway, it's similar with reputation, I feel. Specifically, the redesigns all focus on having the reputation for reputation's sake.
 
8:31 AM
They probably feel like they're being talked down to, since it comes from "authority".
 
HAHAHA
 
@E_net4-KrabbemitHüten Would they react differently if the same message came from a lower privileged user? For example as a response by the user they "educated"?
 
Yeah, they probably feel bullied due to the power dynamic that inherently exists between themselves and a moderator.
 
@VLAZ Experience tells me so.
But it goes both ways, of course. A regular user could also be told to "go away, who are you to educate me".
 
The irony just gets deeper and deeper.
 
8:34 AM
@CodyGray :P But there is no such power dynamic thing when they leave the comment, amiright?
 
Right, no, of course not. Clearly, the power dynamic exists in only one place, not in all other parallel situations.
 
Of course.
 
It's fine for them, as a high-rep user, to imperiously tell new users how to use the site in comments, but it's totally unreasonable for a moderator to deign to tell them how to use the site in mod messages.
 
I do find the "educational" comments to be a bigger problem. I doubt you disagree.
They promote a culture that is not conductive to proper Q&A. Teaching new users the wrong lessons, and also teaching other users as well. These comments are way more visible that moderator feedback. So one user leaving 100 wrong comments, even if they change their ways, might have changed the attitude of 2+ other users
 
Also a problem with downvote complaints. They incite the stigma against downvotes and spread misinformation about downvoting and explaining votes.
 
8:44 AM
haven't you heard that accepting is the way, @VLAZ [obviously when it's your answer that is accepted]?
 
Works really well when yours is the only answer!
 
and also increases chances that it stays that way as many users tend to skip "solved" questions!
 
Yep, really well.
 
@E_net4-KrabbemitHüten yeah, just got called "toxic" and "only interested in politics" for trying to warn a user that a question ban is likely to be inherited by a new account
 
9:01 AM
O boy. "I'm in a room full of children and I'm the only adult".
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Not sure if it helps at all (don't know the situation you're talking about) but I find that leading with something like this doesn't tend to end well. It's better to say something like "Please don't do <something>" without mentioning the consequences. Of course, if you're asked as a response, do feel free to elaborate.
@E_net4-KrabbemitHüten So, perfect time to start a poker competition. Children haven't learned fiscal responsibility or proper bluffing yet!
 
@VLAZ no, I was trailing with that :) it was actually a matter-of-fact statement that one has to remember that account deletion and recreation does not absolve one from a post ban (in response to a user suggesting they are going to do just that)
 
9:25 AM
0
Q: Why is the edit queue always full?

eDonkeyI am quite active on the rsyslog tag on Stack Overflow - and as it seems almost the only one. Even though a lot of questions there aren't programming related, I think it's important that the questions still get answered, as a lot of people don't know the Stack Exchange Network and thus only post ...

 
9:47 AM
It's kind of weird the misconception users have about "edit queues". It seems common to assume there are many. One per user, one per tag, one per post.
 
kind of reasonable given that to know that the queue is capped to 500 edits at a time, one has to dig up an MSO/MSE canonical. The Help Center is, as usual, utterly unhelpful.
 
10:37 AM
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Q: "How to answer" help page doesn't mention anything about commentary in answers

TomerikooToday I encountered an answer that was prefaced with a questionnaire to the OP. Something like "I'm not sure I understand what you mean..." and a few questions asking to clarify the question. To my surprise, the how to answer help article doesn't mention anything about this or give any guidance t...

 
11:04 AM
Re: "rep" & "privilege", meanwhile...
in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, 16 hours ago, by Catija
I still want to split at least some privileges away from rep entirely.
 
@E_net4-KrabbemitHüten The frustrating thing is, I never know whether to reply and correct the misconceptions, or to just silently delete them.
 
I once tried this exercise of recording each comment I made so as to keep track of positive and negative outcomes. I don't think there was any conclusion from this. :[
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine There was another one?! We already did that tonight...
 
What I do know is that it stings when we leave a comment and then they go berserk.
 
@AndrewT. Yeah, she's said this before: she wants to split the moderator privilege away from rep by revising the candidate score. :-p
@E_net4-KrabbemitHüten How would you tell a positive vs. negative outcome? A downvote would be negative, yet a positive outcome, right? :mindblown:
@E_net4-KrabbemitHüten Ah, that's when things get easy for mods, because then you know exactly what you should do: delete them all.
 
11:18 AM
@CodyGray A positive outcome would be the user following the feedback given without going obscene in the process.
@CodyGray Until they decide to spread the toxicity to their bio, Twitter, emails, and so on.
 
Yeah, but I can't do anything about that.
We don't have a moderator exchange program with Twitter.
 
Twitter has moderators?
 
I thought so? What else is Elon Musk complaining about?
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine Yes, so that they can ban libs calling out toxic people.
 
Who kicked off Trump?
 
11:21 AM
Obviously the anti-free speech lobby, duh
 
@E_net4-KrabbemitHüten OTOH, I posted a comment. On a post by an unregistered user. Who lost their cookie as soon as they closed their browser...
 
0
Q: Does this edit improve or add something to the question?

S. DreI submitted an edit to this question. Then, another user made another edit on top of mine (I am completely cool with that, obviously). But I have checked the edit to see what I had missed and I found myself with this: The user in question does not have the privileges to make an edit without goin...

0
Q: Advice for improving chances of reopening of my question about XML processing

Reto HöhenerHow to programmatically fix an XML document based on maxLength restrictions in the schema? Immediately after posting and receiving down- and close-votes, I edited the question to provide focus, research and code. A day later now it was closed anyway.

 
That's an awful lot of meta posts
This is gonna be a long week :')
 
Emphasis on "awful"
yesterday, by Cody Gray
Is it just me, or have the Meta questions over the past few weeks gotten way worse than ever before?
 
I wonder if someone posted about meta on reddit or something
 
11:30 AM
"Go here to post stuff even more inane than what you can get away with here!"
In fact, as @Tomerikoo noted, you've nearly answered your own question. The reason why the suggested edit queue is always full is because people are submitting edits to blatantly off-topic questions when they should be simply flagging them to be closed. Off-topic questions should not be edited; that just wastes everyone's time. — Cody Gray ♦ 11 secs ago
Sigh.
 
11:42 AM
Just for fun, I tried googling "meta.stackoverflow.com" -site:stackoverflow.com -site:stackexchange.com and found sur.ly/i/meta.stackoverflow.com and ...
 
Feature-request: instantly reject edits on questions when they're closed
 
So, it's child-safe? Good to know!
@ZoestandswithUkraine das Kind mit dem Bade ausschütten!
 
Genau! Wir sollten nicht scheiße Frage polieren, so warum nicht?
My German is reeeeally rusty
 
Yeah, probably not as bad as mine
I don't even know the word "Genau"
 
Stop ze Deutsch
 
11:49 AM
"Stoppen ze Deutsch", I think you meant. :-p
 
KFC.
@CodyGray the last time I used it properly was the second year of high school, which is 3 years ago now
But positively surprised it hasn't degraded more
 
I don't think words degrade, even without regular use
 
12:15 PM
Meant that I'm happy I can form basic sentences
More than with Korean at least :p
 
Is that a you problem or a language problem?
 
It's a me problem
Relatively tiny vocabulary, and conjugation is hard
There's no gender or anything to worry about, but verbs have an obnoxious number of forms: verbix.com/webverbix/korean/…
And I struggle finding rules for regular verbs
There might not be gender, but they instead have formality as a part of conjungation
 
 
4 hours later…
4:02 PM
@CodyGray Hey, my tag synonym/merge request is at least 'below average' quality...
 
4:55 PM
0
Q: Unclear why a bounty was posted on this question

Bender the GreatestI came across this question, which is off-topic (asks how to perform OS functions only, does not present a programmatic issue). I initially flagged for moderator intervention to remove the bounty as directed here, since you cannot VTC a question with an active bounty. However... I've now noticed ...

 
 
5:51 PM
my comment on the blog was denied, i can't imagine why
 
I never even bothered to check back about my last comment
I don't even remember the article it was under
 
> 🤮
why are they partnering with such awful companies
Why are podcasts that feature paid partners not tagged as partnered content?
 
6:53 PM
I guess it's true the people running the company now have totally different values when it comes to coding/devs
we should not be surprised since that's what happens when a company sells out
@KevinB frankly I'm shocked the article didn't start out with a disclaimer about the author's position with the company his blog post was shilling
 
They edited the author's name to include that information after the fact
 
yeah
after someone requested it in the comments
 
claimed it was a "bug" that the partnered content tag wasn't more prominent
the sorting is hardly the issue
It should say partnered content in the bulliten board that presents it on SO
 
I left a follow up reply saying I expect to see a banner at the top of such a blog post explicitly proclaiming that the author is an employee of the company they are writing the post for
I mean, they have a clear financial interest in advertising their own company here, because it's a cryptocurrency company
 
better yet... omit posts with 'partnered content' tags from SO entirely
 
6:57 PM
conflict of interest regarding the subject (web3)
as well
@KevinB pipe dream, then no one would see the blog posts
 
that would be better for everyone
jus tlook through all the recent posts
it's all the same junk other than the survey... which itself is just a marketing tool pretending to be a service to the community.
also kinda funny how in the name of diversity the blog images haven't been all that... diverse lately
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
I would love to see them interview SwiftOnSecurity or Lesley Carhart; they probably have some really good content to share on infosec
 
7:43 PM
@CodyGray no, no, same one :) just another comment
 
@KevinB funny that
I wonder where the problem is though
Read: is it an input problem, or do the editor(s) have a bit of a bias?
And per tradition, we'll never know
 
8:41 PM
i'm sure if you look at it on avg over a longer period rather than just the three latest posts its fine
 
9:02 PM
Gib stats :p
 
After looking at the blog announcements over a long period of time, I decided that on average, it's waste of my time even reading the titles, so I blocked the announcements (blog + podcast) from the sidebar.
 
I use a lot of plugins and userscripts. One of them blocked the blog, and I have no idea which
Not complaining though, the blog is 99% trash
 
i rather leave it on so that there's one more thing to complain about
 
9:24 PM
I have enough to complain about
Seriously, get elected if you need stuff to complain about
 
no chance that ever happens
 
Nearly all the mod tools are regularly broken, and overall have anywhere from mediocre to bad and outright awful usability in some of the worst cases
 
Workaround: do not use the mod tools.
It's not a good workaround but it's an option, at least!
 
yeah, and that's what tends to happen
I've made some tools to make comment moderation less garbage, Sam has countless userscripts for everything, and a lot of the active mods have made and maintain at least one userscript
 
I have yet to write any, but I debug them sometimes.
The mod room last night was filled with a back-and-forth between Cody and I trying to debug an issue with a mod script. :-p
It turned out that it was broken, but in different ways depending on which other scripts you were or weren't running...
 
9:41 PM
It's insane though
Userscripts that do elementary stuff have an individual complexity exceeding the entirety of the site they run on
 
Not to mention that across orgs and individual developers we have enough helpers to build a new client for the network
 
I considered getting the ball rolling on one, but I don't have a chance alone
 
that's probably a full-time work even for a group of users, so not sure it's worth undertaking. Although it's an interesting idea to entertain
 
seems pointless
 
9:57 PM
More pointless than hoping for basic UI features we'll literally never get?
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine However, if you are in dire need of UI reworks that break more stuff than they improve, SE got you covered.
 
stage a mod walkout
 
0
A: Please allow users without the close/reopen votes privilege to see the full details of close reasons

CatijaThe changes requested here went live recently without much notice but I thought I'd go over the full slate of things that had to be updated to meet the request while attempting to catch all of the edge cases. If there's stuff we missed, please let us know. So, I'm going to start out by saying tha...

 
10:27 PM
@ZoestandswithUkraine it's enough to make a person start yelling at robots:
 
 
1 hour later…
11:56 PM
0
Q: Update "please consider adding a comment" message when downvoting questions

AndreiWhen downvoting a (recent?) question, a prompt appears stating: Please consider adding a comment if you think this post can be improved. I feel like this should also take into account whether or not you already upvoted another comment that already points out what is wrong with the post / how it...

 

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