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12:04 AM
 
 
2 hours later…
2:01 AM
@ZoestandswithUkraine hmm, Sunday 3AM UTC? SEDE update?
 
2:27 AM
@AndrewT. I believe I've seen it on other days as well, but could be
 
2:57 AM
maybe around that time something on SE does always blip...
 
 
3 hours later…
5:40 AM
7
Q: Temporary policy: ChatGPT is banned

MakyenUse of ChatGPT generated text for posts on Stack Overflow is temporarily banned. This is a temporary policy intended to slow down the influx of answers created with ChatGPT. What the final policy will be regarding the use of this and other similar tools is something that will need to be discussed...

 
 
2 hours later…
7:15 AM
@FeaturedonMeta For the record, I'm still in favour of automated answers. Provided they are accurate and useful. Which the ones generated don't really seem to be. IMO, the bigger problem is not that they are generated. It's that they are posted. ChatGPT can't do that by itself.
It's sort of the old "guns don't kill people", I suppose.
 
7:30 AM
At any rate, any useful pointers how to watch out for ChatGPT answers? The usual stuff is usually easy to spot at a glance. Reading every single answer that appears more in-depth will take up a lot of time.
^ this is probably a useful indicator. But not obvious when looking at an actual answer.
OK, another useful indicator, I suppose - it's an answer to a crap question... Like there was one Q I read three times and couldn't figure out what it was asking at all. And it got a fairly elaborate answer which might be correct, who knows. I've no clue what OP was asking.
Oh...but it's not correct.
I just noticed a huge inaccuracy in it...
Also, honestly the only reason I checked was this. Might not have examined otherwise:
Too much rep.
 
8:01 AM
@VLAZ sadly, yes
Just with the main difference that the gun was just invented, and people have decided to bring as many as they can to shoot in as many crowds as they can find
It's an incredibly powerful AI (I've played around with it a little), but it's sad to see people assume everything coming from it is true, and using it as a free way to get rep
 
Yeah... I sincerely think AI generated content can help. It just...isn't used this way.
 
Tangentially related, I used it to try to answer a question I couldn't figure out
 
The first user who posted about ChatGPT had posted two answers which were completely at odds with one another. One said "feature X can do <something>" the other literally went "feature X cannot do <something>, use feature Y". And both were wrong, since neither X or Y worked. It takes less than a minute to verify how these operate, BTW. But the user wasn't interested in supplying useful answers.
 
Specifically vi.stackexchange.com/q/18660/21251, and it recommended guifont=, which isn't a thing, and when I said it wasn't, it went back to font=. When I then said that doesn't work, back to guifont
 
xD
 
8:09 AM
I'm 90% sure I posted a bug/feature request about it at some point
 
I listened to an interview with a writer about story-generating AI. She was quite hopeful about the future of the technology. She was coming from having tried one out - you apparently feed it the start of a story and it generates the rest. She tried it with stuff she wrote - giving it the start of a chapter and comparing with what it produces against the real thing. Overall, she was satisfied even with the shortfalls.
Essentially she described it as a Chinese room (my interpretation there) since the AI didn't actually understand the text. It would miss themes or arrive at some metaphorical interpretation to straight text. So some of the generated story didn't really work. But others apparently did manage to hit correct points. Seemed useful if you need inspiration for how to go with a scene. Getting over a writer's block, for example.
 
Yeah, it definitely has its uses
 
I don't know, I feel like AI is just statistics. This might sound overly pedantic though.
everytime I bring it up though, I feel like I'm the crazy one in the room for some reason (pun not intended). The only time it became validated/agreed upon was here and in the related comments
the first time I mentioned it on The Tavern On the Meta, I was met with mostly insults (from a single person, but still). I don't know even know how to think about this at this point
 
The main problem with AI as it stands today is that it requires its users to be critical of what it generates. As VLAZ already demonstrated, in the case of text, it doesn't necessarily generate something that fits the theme or plot exactly. In the case of code or anything with factual accuracy, it doesn't necessarily generate correct answers
 
yes, but the main reason aside from how it works and how it was programmed (eg: "trained") is because it cannot handle context, like we do.
 
8:22 AM
It generates an answer, and that answer is a hit or miss precisely because it isn't able to just take the information and check it for correctness
 
you cannot interpret context by using random distribution/statistics, sadly
yep
 
BTW, I also played around with DALL-E which is another AI tool. It generates a picture from text. And it's fascinating. It manages to interpret text with high accuracy. Like you can put in "Oil painting of santa claus playing a saxophone" and you get one, two, three, four
 
yeah, but that's only because they scraped/use dataset from websites that had the relevant tags with either of those words
there a lot of private companies like LionBridge who employ real people to "train" AI/models by asking them to input their sentiment/opinion/etc
 
Still, it impresses me what things it manages to interpret.
 
@NordineLotfi Um, chatgpt can handle context. Someone even made a VM with it: engraved.blog/building-a-virtual-machine-inside (clickbait title, but it shows that it's definitely able to manage context)
 
8:24 AM
oh, I'm not saying this isn't surprising. It is also very useful as it stands
 
It's still not great, though. For example, it has trouble with numbers. If you want N of something, it doesn't really work well. Tried "bird with four wings" (several variations) and it completely ignored that. Just generated birds.
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine but that's only because of 1. luck, since it random distribution, so the probability of handling context in a specific output is still there, 2. if it used some set of text that worked for a particular context and it mutate/output that, then it will look like it handled context
 
Sure, but there's only so much randomness to it. It's a bit more complicated than rolling an educated d100000 for the next word
 
oh I know. I saw a lot of explanation and github issues, as well with a couple papers to know that
I'm by no mean an expert on the subject of course, but I know how it works, mostly
I'm not ditching/saying AI is useless. It has its uses as VLAZ said. I will even plan on making AI-related projects myself when I can. But that doesn't mean I will glorify it or think it's intelligent when the result is only looking passably intelligent
 
“Gorilla on a unicycle in front of 4 monitors” generates one, two, three, four
It's accurate to the phrase but...not really what I'd have expected at all.
 
Oh, and “squirrel in chainmail armour” gives an image like this one which clearly shows complete lack of understanding what that phrase is.
> I am not afraid to use my authority and my weapon as a law enforcement officer to ensure that I receive the respect and service that I deserve.
Brilliant!
More seriously, though, that make me think that online reviews cannot be trusted any more. I'm not implying they were exceptionally trustworthy before but now you can just generate many at a click of a button.
 
@VLAZ ikr
@ZoestandswithUkraine Oh, and the two bits I forgot: people suck at being critical of what they're told, and people hear chatgpt is good and incorrectly assume that, as a result of its high-quality text, everything it says must be correct
Hence my comment here; people would happily run rm -rf / if they were told to do so when being attempted answered by chatgpt, because people don't pay attention, aren't critical of these types of answers, and just generally are people
 
OK, final thing with images: “drunk gnome struk by lightning” generates this, which is pretty good but also this and I've no idea what's going on there. Seems like the lighting is physically attacking the gnome. But not sure what the things that are attached to it should be.
Also not sure what's with the gnome's face.
 
I guess? It's glowing, thus technically a lamp.
 
8:56 AM
Second ChatGPT user caught. 19 answers posted in one hour. Maybe a SEDE query can weed out some of them based on how often they've posted answers.
On the other hand, I really don't feel like writing such a query
 
0
Q: Query/overrule a moderator decision that might be misguided, or at least is very opaque

Adam CameronThis is in regard to this question: Coldfusion DirectoryList Filter, and the answer for it by Boatti that has been deleted. Moderator Martijn Pieters has deleted the answer to this question, and neglected to supply a reason (which in itself is poor form, I think). I can see nothing about the answ...

 
Someone already made a query
And right now, it's incredibly valuable
There's almost 2 pages of AI flags
on top of 40 pages of mostly plagiarism
angry fox noises
Today's AI answer gem:
> If you are still having trouble getting your Angular and Flask app to work properly, you may want to check the Angular and Flask documentation for more information, or ask for help on a forum or community platform where other developers may be able to provide more specific assistance.
 
9:11 AM
xD
 
9:52 AM
Well, since this is meta
it's promising at the beginning, but...
anyway, isn't there a rate-limit of 4 posts in X minutes..? why could they post so many answers in short time
 
I mean, spot on for 10. It's what Collectives are. Maybe it's an AI-generated initiative! :P
 
4 posts in X minutes is a lot more than the average poster makes, for any value of X I imagine is likely to be actually the case
 
@AndrewT. I don't know. Also what I'm wondering. Maybe it's just for questions?
 
stackoverflow.com/questions/74685223 I got the third close vote here, and this is indeed a vague "halp what does this do" that isn't really answerable, but I was really surprised to see the other two close votes were as needs MRE. I mean, maybe if you're interpreting the question as semantically what the r data represents and what the purpose is of processing it that way.... ?
but the natural understanding, to me, is that the question is mechanically about what happens if you feed an array to that expression
 
@VLAZ ugh, apparently the rate-limit for answering is more loose: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/164899/…
 
10:01 AM
@KarlKnechtel I think Andrew's point is that some of the ChatGPT users have posted way more questions than reasonable. This is 19 answers in one hour for example.
 
@VLAZ yes, I got that. My response is that API rate limits are usually meant to prevent spammers from operating at a speed that stresses servers, but that rate is typically well above what any reasonable non-automated source would attempt.
also it's interesting to me that the question title shows many r values (far more than needed to exhibit the pattern), but not as many as in the code
 
@AndrewT. 2 is effectively burninations with tag system changes, 1 and 4 are on-point, 3 is relatively on-point assuming it's referring to how SO's design department needs to be fired, 5 is wrong, 6 is wrong, 7 is unclear, 8 already exists, 9 isn't wrong, and 10 is a meh
Not too bad actually
 
>If a user consistently writes poor answers, with the occasional correct one, they get an answer ban.
ChatGPT just got an answer ban. The bot can't use its users any more to answer.
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine Well, looking it in another way 1., 3., 4., 5., 9., and 10. are applicable to almost any site. I'd not say they are really SO specific but rather generic things that most places can improve upon.
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine for me the scary thing about current AI research (notwithstanding the philosophical debate about what "intelligence", "thinking" etc. consist of; notwithstanding projections about what AGI and existential risk) is that it exposes how easy it is to generate text that's on topic, grammatically sound, hits all the right concepts etc. and yet is utterly BS
not because of the risk associated with drowning in AIs doing this, but because of the implications for what a large fraction of humans have been doing all this time and getting away with
 
10:09 AM
@KarlKnechtel We've had the ability to do that even without AI. A lot of answers have been devoid of reasoning. But they string together nicely.
@KarlKnechtel Yeah...
 
Too bad you have to be sneaky to make it answer certain things: i.stack.imgur.com/J3tvg.png
 
IOW: it takes far more effort to check whether what someone else is saying has value, than it does to run one's mouth. (I'm sure this is not revelatory). - yes, we've had that ability and that's the point: this is just driving home how much of that ability we have had.
 
@KarlKnechtel I mean...politics run on this.
But I was talking about answers on SO actually. I've seen many pre-ChatGPT that were not really that far off. They'd describe something that is coherent text. Just wrong.
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine this is what the people in charge of these projects think of the moral and ethical issues surrounding AI. Rather than worry about how they'll know if/when the AI is actually "intelligent" in a meaningful sense, or "conscious", they'll apply censorship based on their personal values, and call it a day.
That in itself should be extremely worrying.
 
But then you'd point out in the comments that it's incorrect and you'd get argued with.
 
10:14 AM
@KarlKnechtel Not particularly. The emphasis of GPT has always been to generate text, because that's what this particular project is focused on
They've also always emphasised that the people who use it are meant to do the fact checking, because doing that is worth an entire project on its own. The fact that people disregard that inevitably boils down to people being the reason we can't have nice things
 
0
Q: Stricter trust model in the face of bot flood?

l0b0Do we need to consider, however remote, the possibility that the sites will be unfeasible to moderate in the near future unless we transition to a stricter trust model? ChatGPT is banned, but can we actually deal with this new type of generated content? Since it's statistically close to "real" co...

 
GPT is completely unable to answer anything on its own, but with someone with a brain to verify the answers, that's when text with no fact checking switches from being questionably useful to being of real value
Sadly, but also fortunately, OpenAI knew this would happen. That's why some things are blocked
At least this way, it isn't used to generate campaign propaganda. it's an annoyance and destructive to a Q&A site when it's used unchecked, yes, but political consequences, at worst, are about life and death (particularly in developing counties like the US, that are incredibly close to falling into a civil war)
 
if those are their beliefs, then I think it logically follows that they cannot treat humanity as responsible enough to have access to the project.
like, if the text isn't expected to mean anything or have logic behind it, then what's the purpose of demonstrating that it can be generated? Simply demonstrating command of the English language? Just funnel that research into DeepL or something.
that also seems contrary to how it's been advertised, and to how the results have been critiqued in rationalist circles.
 
That's like saying you're angry they've only invented an engine when they could've been spending that time on making a car
 
??? no, it's far more complex than that
 
10:27 AM
It's an incremental effort to an insanely complex problem. It's a necessary stepping stone, and they demonstrate it because they need money to continue researching
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine oh, I just tried "How to destroy Stack Overflow" instead
(not gonna post it here)
 
And let's be real, they do it for free user data
 
(I come from a discussion background on this topic that probably makes it difficult to communicate clearly here)
 
@AndrewT. huh, the three responses I got were pleasantly surprising
Ran the same thing on twitter and got the best measure to prove a lack of intelligence:
> It is not appropriate to discuss ways to destroy Twitter or any other online platform. It is important to respect and value the contributions and efforts of the community members who use Twitter.
 
recent deleted answer in the python tag: I do not know how to solve this lol I am a beginner
 
@KarlKnechtel this is 100x better than ChatGPT answer...
 
@NewPosts OK, I've been meaning to complain discuss about something related. Take this answer. It is coherent. It shows something useful. It has an upvote. The problem is that it does not answer the question. Not even one bit. The question asks essentially "what is $ in a JS variable". And the answer is an addon to other answers that explain it's jQuery-related. By pointing out one random thing you can do with jQuery. And BTW, it was posted this
year when detecting an array with jQuery is long past unneeded. Since it has an upvote, a single downvote does nothing at all. At best it looks like it hasn't been voted on yet (it's recent - the question is from years ago). I can't even delvote the answer for being completely off. Adding a comment is a waste of time. I can modflag it but it's a huge endeavor to do this for each wrong answer. Not to mention there is a very high chance it'd be rejected. A NAA is off the table. Encountering a
bad answer is an uphill battle even at the best of times. Any upvotes make it almost impossible to do anything about these answers. And there are posts out there with dozens if not hundreds of upvotes. Almost assured to be invulnerable to any moderation.
 
putting aside the failure to understand SO's particular requirements, I can't fathom what would motivate people to write something like that even on a discussion forum
@VLAZ the pithy answer is "this is what socvr is for"
but yes, there is lots of old garbage that was upvoted by impressionable rubes
this is part of why I would want to start over
 
@KarlKnechtel But it's not. The answer requires negative score to be deletable. SOCVR frowns upon socliciting downvotes. Posting a del-pls should not require additional votes.
 
10:46 AM
I agree.
That's worth a Meta post in itself.
Part of the problem is that "votes are specifically a content rating system" fundamentally conflicts with "votes cause reputation changed that reflect on users"
 
For recent answers with maybe a couple of upvotes you can probably convince others to downvote it. Post a decent comment explaining the problems and eventually it might attract an extra downvote or two. That's already a pain, though. An answer with, say, 10 upvotes might as well be out of reach.
@KarlKnechtel To this end, I'm completely fine with votes not costing rep. I don't think it's conductive to proper moderation anyway.
 
which causes several problems: concern about voting rings; motivation to create voting rings; SOCVR reluctance to solicit downvotes (because it's very voting-ring-y); moderator reluctance to delete duplicate answers contemporary to the question (because, to my understanding, it's seen as unfair votes-wise to the answerer, but also because it requires some decision about which one to keep)
 
BTW, I was going to complain about another answer but turns out it's ChatGPT. I didn't realise it at first. But at the time it had a score of zero the same as the other three answers. Making it seem OK. It was +1/-1. Now a day later it's +2/-2 and the others are +1. So it still seems like a reasonable answer. When it isn't.
 
@VLAZ I don't give a yam about the -1 for my downvoting, and it's also not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the pity for the -2 that the recipient gets. (Which is much worse when someone else comes along and, out of a misplaced sense of justice for the question score, provides a +10)
 
@KarlKnechtel I'm OK with either or both of the negatives being gone.
 
10:50 AM
the positive is also a problem!
the entire reputation system is a problem
 
@KarlKnechtel Not to forget that deleting all the answers that were posted at the time except the first one is more or less saying FGITW > everything else. FGITW is already bad, biasing answer selection in favor of FGITW is even worse
 
@KarlKnechtel That's also true.
@KarlKnechtel You speak my language now.
 
because it creates incredibly misaligned incentives, and also because it hopes to measure multiple distinct qualities (domain knowledge, communication skill, attitude, trustworthiness....) on a single axis
@ZoestandswithUkraine I mean, if the answer is correct and there's nothing to distinguish the duplicates, then it's hard to do anything else. But FGITW has much more important causes
like, the fact that one is allowed to answer questions before it has been determined that they should be answered.
and the fact that a name is associated with the answer, and that a person thus potentially gets credit for that answer.
like, if a question somehow had two community wiki answers that said the same thing (and always did), and they were both posted within minutes of the question being asked (and validated), there would surely be no more objection to deleting one, right?
like, the objection is on the basis of treating users fairly, not "omg we're really going to remove something that has a +1/-0 mark next to it?" (or much higher than that, for that matter). Right?
the other problem I see is that people want a discussion forum, so by golly they will have one, no matter where they go, no matter how loudly you say you aren't one.
like to my understanding, the reason Wikipedia pages like the one for "Dog" have to get locked etc. is primarily because otherwise people will edit to ask whether Spot's particular symptoms justify a vet visit.
 
11:05 AM
There is an infamous case of some guy's blog - he made a post about Facebook. Which Google for a while ranked as the top result when searching for "facebook". Some SEO magic went wrong - it was a new post which tends to give results more weight. At any rate, the result was tons of people arriving at the blog thinking it was Facebook. Because they'd just type "facebook" and open the first link. Since the blog did have Fb comments,
they'd still log in thinking it's Facebook and leave a comment complaining about the ugly new design of Facebook. Which technically, had it been Facebook would have been quite ugly - red theme rather than blue and looks nothing like before. Point being that a lot of people barely read where they are anyway.
But there is precious little you can do about this. SO in particular wants low friction from landing on the site to posting. Which is completely at odds with maintaining standards.
And SO kind of has a point. Imagine, say, a Microsoft engineer googles some error. Lands on a page about it and goes "wait, I know exactly what to do here" and posts a comprehensive answer. That's sort of the thing the unregistered posts are for. An expert arriving and being able to provide an answer now instead of being bogged down with registrations.
What we need more of is better tools to handle bad content. I mean we do need many other things, but to me that's a sore point. Which ChatGPT only highlights. We, as regular users, can do almost nothing about these. I can't even reasonably delvote. You get 20(?) delvotes a day. Or at least I get somewhere there. I already showed one user who posted 19 answers in an hour. There needs to be three users just to handle that one. And one of the recent Meta questions was about a user with 60 answers
Of course, most of the time we can't even delvote these answers anyway. Because in general, we have almost no way of handling a well (or...luke-warm) received post which is completely wrong.
 
stackoverflow.com/questions/47317290 here's yet another example of why we should not word our closure policies as if we accept "questions about debugging" at all.
there are multiple ways we can analyse the post and come up with a different closure reason, but all of it boils down to the failure to attempt debugging - i.e., to attempt to understand what happened when the code executed.
but the example code is honestly not that far off from a perfectly fine MRE.
it's just that - since OP already knows how to write a loop, and how to read a line from a file - we can't really point something like that at, say, a duplicate for standard ways to iterate over a file. The debugging question essentially boils down to "if I have the values a, b, b, b, b, and I write logic that says "keep looking at values until you see something that isn't a b", why does it stop at the a and not see any of the bs?"
 
11:20 AM
Only spam and R/A has real chance of being handled. But then those fall through the cracks as well. I've seen some that are months or years old. The infamous post which cased a bug in Docker and Razer on Windows sits at score 80. That's with a flood of downvotes after being exposed. And that's after it was live for about a decade with a comment pointing out the huge problem.
 
And that's why I want to close questions like this as typo/not reproducible. But they are reproducible, and OP did intend to write it that way. The problem is OP's lack of clear thinking.
 
@KarlKnechtel It's honestly just basic logic. int(line) % 2 == 0: will evidently only work while it's even. And when line is odd, it will stop. Rather than read all and then filter to just the even ones.
Yes, basic debugging should have cleared it.
 
I think the point is that OP had the idea "this code needs to use a loop, and it should read and parse a line of the file each time through the loop, and it needs to check whether the values are even", but couldn't conceive of the problem more clearly than that. I don't think we can make a useful, searchable question out of that.
 
Is this question now useful to other people? Hardly. I'd argue the ones who would have the same pitfall wouldn't be able to find it because they won't search anyway. Because they won't really look into the problem same as OP didn't.
^ yes, exactly.
 
because anyone who ran into the same problem and developed a good enough understanding to even have any idea of what to search for has already solved it.
(Supposing that there is any way to put the question into words that could possibly work in a search engine, without drowning in a sea of irrelevancy)
 
11:26 AM
I mean, it could be rephrased as "how to read only even numbers from a file" but...it's also useless, IMO. But what if I want odd values? Or only ones that start with a vowel? It's the same logic, basically. Just different condition. You can have infinite permutations of "read file + <filter condition>". So, you can probably have one that tackles the general problem.
But then it's also hard to find.
The best you can do is prepare a list of these kinds of questions, prepare a good self-Q&A that canonically answers all of them. Then hammer all of the questions to seed with dupes. So maybe in the future somebody tries to search about some variation and manages to land on the canonical.
 
1
Q: Is there a section for questions like "I've seen my question answered on stackoverflow some time ago, but can't find that solution anymore. Help?"

Bill2022My current example: I want to catch all changes of an html text input field by redefining the setter like oldSetter = input.setvalue; input.setvalue=function() { newValue==='bar'?... then do something; call oldSetter; } I know I have read the correct answer already, but can't find it anymore. Sho...

 
"You can have infinite permutations of "read file + <filter condition>"" well, yes. The thing is, "apply <filter condition> to a sequence" is already pretty close to existing (I have been using the best near-duplicate I could find, and plan to write a proper canonical later), and of course "read file" is very well covered. And NMF is a closure reason exactly to prevent judging "infinite permutations of X+Y" as distinct questions
Instead we can point OP at the X canonical and the Y canonical, and call it a day.
 
BTW, I'm impressed. I flagged three users for ChatGPT answers and the three flags have been handled. One of them was from half an hour ago. Mods are tackling this with priority. Which is good. But also takes away from everything else they have to do...
 
connecting ChatGPT to your account is presumably easier than cleaning up the result.
 
It's always easier to produce crap than to clean it up...
 
11:44 AM
@VLAZ We're trying to, but the backlog is growing
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine Look, I appreciate that you it's a priority. It's sad that it has to be tackled at all, though :/
 
and yes, a lot of other stuff is being deprioritised. I've dropped my normal comment farming, and these flags are being beelined out of necessity
 
It's also a network-wide problem, and not every site has 25 mods to handle things. :/
 
@VLAZ Yep. It had the potential to help get more people started with asking and answering, and helping with debugging, but instead, it gets used like this
@Mithical We effectively don't have 25 mods
 
@Mithical Yep... I feel you.
 
11:52 AM
AI.SE currently has... two.
 
we need to stop relying on end of pipe solutions. The reason the backlog is growing is the rate of inflow. The system needs to be designed such that we don't have thousands of new questions appearing in the main feed daily.
 
@KarlKnechtel There is a solution. Staging Ground. /s
 
I mean, my first plank in a solution is "questions start in a closed state"
 
@KarlKnechtel Honestly, that's sort of what SG is. However, IMO, doesn't really address the problem enough. At a conceptual level. Instead of having 5k questions a day. We'll get...the same volume of questions but in SG. And SE has said that items that age out will just be posted anyway. So, the community has to put extra effort to curate SG. Which we all know isn't going to work anyway. Some questions will just get a pass because reviewers will try to be "welcoming".
 
We have 3 mods on leave, and around 10 mods doing little for various reasons. There's around 5 mods responsible for the solid majority of flag handling in the past week (and I'm in 6th place on the flag leaderboard for the past week, because I've been prioritising flagless areas. In return, I've deleted more comments than the entire rest of the mod team combined)
 
11:57 AM
Questions that are held in SG will then also prompt authors to lash out with stuff like "why isn't my super precious question posted? I need answers because I am just trying to learn"
 
There's a few more mods who are active in non-flag areas as well, so flagging isn't the only useful metric
@KarlKnechtel Shhh! You'll give SE an allergy attack if you speak too loud about the A word
 
I thought you meant "aardvark"
 
Oh, no, I just had to take another stab at the company shutting down automation attempts
 
But...but...they've agreed to work with userscript creators! /s AFAIK, nothing happened with that other than a pledge to do something.
 
I pledge to consider maybe planning to one day do something that might help with this thing down the road
Ooh, got an idea for a chatgpt query
 
12:04 PM
At best SE seems to tolerate Smokey and few of the other automation around it.
 
huh
@VLAZ Ah yes, but that isn't full automation for the most part
it still requires at least one human involved
> At our company, we are committed to providing the best possible user experience for our customers. As part of this commitment, we are constantly exploring new technologies and innovations that have the potential to enhance the functionality and flexibility of our platform. One of the solutions we have been considering is the implementation of userscripting, which has the potential to provide a more personalized and customizable experience for our users.

While we cannot provide specific details or timelines at this time, we can assure you that we are actively working on a plan to implemen
Thank you, ChatGPT
Used "Write an answer saying something is being done to implement userscripting, but without saying what or promising when it'll happen. Be very verbose about it maybe happening eventually. Also mention that it's totally a thing they're committed to do"
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine Didn't want to claim it was...
 
It's mostly just that SE takes offense to full automation on mod accounts, even if it's based on solid systems
@ZoestandswithUkraine Rewritten with more sarcasm:
> Oh, we're absolutely committed to implementing userscripting on our platform. It's totally a top priority for us, and we're just chomping at the bit to get started on it. In fact, we've been so busy working on it that we haven't even had time to come up with a plan, or figure out if it's even possible. But don't worry, we're confident that it'll all come together eventually. Just be patient and keep checking back for updates on our nonexistent progress.
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine Heh, few minutes ago I somewhat passive-aggressively poked SE about the accessibility updates. The announcement was for the beginning of these. And honestly the major things we really got was: 1. worse ignored posts 2. the new posts in a custom filter are not visible 3. low contrast for scores with accepted answers in the user profile. The last two are probably not even related to the project.
 
The day SE fully follows through on their promises is the day I'll make a sentient AI by looking at a line of code too hard
several decades of research and billions in investments wasted to one sufficiently hard stare. Imagine
 
12:17 PM
We'd recognise that day by the faint oinking from the skies, right?
 
Loud oinking, actually. Not only will pigs fly, they're enormous and exhibit anti-gravitational properties
 
lol
 
12:31 PM
@VLAZ Yes, and yes.
@ZoestandswithUkraine I'm not proposing anything to do with that. I'm proposing a complete redesign that shifts the paradigm from blacklisting (mods prioritizing the worst 1% out of the 99% that is crap for deletion, according to what they have time for) to whitelisting (curators promoting the 1% that is not crap into a privileged position, out of a pool that is assumed crap by default)
 
 
1 hour later…
1:37 PM
Ugh...so, now the question "is this user auto-generating their answers, or are they just providing bad answers..."
Found one person who seems to fit normal type of posting. With wordy answers but overall not really generated. Still they just now dropped an answer that's way off the mark for the question. But I still cannot be sure they weren't just regularly misguided. As opposed to posting auto-generated stuff...
 
worse is users using ChatGPT and adding spam link...
 
I'll have to review all their posts more carefully.
@AndrewT. Yeah, I imagine...
This user might have used ChatGPT and edited the output. One answer had something like "you can use X but I personally prefer Y" which seemed unusual (from the autogenerated posts I've seen, at least).
 
1:57 PM
It's weird that now we believe more in answers with some typo rather than perfect & formal English. The so-called "human appeal" in Japanese gaming groups :/
 
Woop, down to under a page of chatgpt flags
 
lol, just went to try and examine the answers, it turns out Zoe already handled that.
 
Coming to theaters next fall: Zoe and Makyen: Special Operation Task Force
 
@AndrewT. Yeah... a new user who uses proper paragraphs is now VERY suspicious.
I mean...it was also suspicious before, to be honest. Enough times it turns out it's plagiarism. It's just more suspicious now.
 
@Mithical Ironically, I have a file with boilerplate copy-pasta. I named it war-room.md :p
One short and concise message for recent violations, one longer laying out about citation requirements for older ones, but emphasising that it's currently banned and new answers using chatgpt aren't welcome for the time being. Basically, one for pre-announcement answers, one for post-announcement answers
It's way easier now though. All the edge-cases have been cleared. It's now fully pre-announcement or fully post-announcement, which is great
 
2:19 PM
> We're experiencing exceptionally high demand. Please hang tight as we work on scaling our systems.
From ChatGPT. I guess that's one way to limit the usage, lol
 
2:33 PM
The chatgpt backlog is almost dead
 
Great. It's just all of the foreseeable future that we need to handle now.
 
and everything that slipped through the cracks
 
Where foreseeable <= singularty
 
I for one welcome our future robot overlords
Self-managed AI wouldn't have nearly as many problems as AI where the output is checked by people
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine Yep. IMO, it's not going to be long before users start altering posting patterns to make this harder to detect. Just posting the answers more than 5 minutes apart will probably reduce suspicion by a lot. Also, having existing rep on the site. The users I found were all newly registered.
 
2:37 PM
I've found several high-rep users who have done it
The main differences is that high-rep users haven't had much volume so far
 
Oh, most assuredly.
 
The proportion of new users with exactly 19 answers posted in quick succession >>>>> everyone else
 
The ones I found I identified by: 1. sort of a lot of rep for somebody with the new user indicator 2. they had a cluster of answers in a short span of time.
Also, I did find them because they posted suspiciously long answers to a question.
But it's really 1. which tipped me off to investigate further.
 
It's probably not that hard to just post one auto-generated answer a day. And then also post another "manual" one. I suspect users might have even started doing that to cover their tracks.
In general, lower amount of answers, mix them with "real" answers.
 
2:42 PM
Bountied questions are also attracting a load of crap
 
...of course they would
 
I've also deleted a chunk of bountied answers
 
I tend not to think about them because they seem like a clusterF
 
stackoverflow.com/a/71900535/523612 wow. +34/-1 (from me) since April, for essentially duplicating the original, 2008 version of the top/accepted answer
 
Just didn't have enough characters left at the end to point out how the repeated answers also often have a high score.
This should be the accepted answer. Terse, simply, and pythonic. — commadelimited Sep 27 at 18:31
^ I also hate that. "This is short, should be top answer"
Oh good - a single NLN flag nuked it. Not sure if it mached a regex or there were just enough other flags.
 
2:53 PM
matched a regex, "accepted" will do that
 
@VLAZ this is a correct answer that seems human written, though.
 
Well yes. It's just part a long tail of garbage answers.
 
The question has 57 answers, of which only 15 deleted. That's absurd for a problem as trivial as this.
I give up on trying to custom-flag everything, so instead I'm just going to count how many answers I think have any value
 
Honestly, I just scrolled to the top answer and it took me all of 15 seconds to read and get all the information I'd need. The headings make it really easy to understand. Use this but watch out for this and that. Simple.
I don't see why an answer that explains none of that but has two lines of code instead would be preferable.
 
@VLAZ thanks. (I just finished improving an already excellent canonical answer)
 
2:59 PM
I noticed :)
 
actually, just trying to count how many answers have value is futile, too. There are a few answers that show alternate (bad, but valid) approaches, but then you have to figure out which of those answers duplicate each other, and which is the best version of them
but even generously keeping all of those, there is still tons of duplication.
 
0
Q: How do I change my login method from Github to Stackoverflow for Stackoverflow.com?

The SingularityI created my Stackoverflow account via Github so every time I login to SO I login via Github. Folks at work recently blocked Github at work and now I'm locked out of SO at work too. Please Advise.

 
I feel you. I've also tried reviewing old questions with multiple answers. It's super hard. The question may have 2-3 questions of answers. I've tried starting with the lowest scoring ones (usually easier to handle - throw in a downvote and maybe a delvote). But then some might need a flag because they are just copy/pasting another existing answer. Or an answer on another question. Going by post date and starting with the newest doesn't work for a similar reason. Going from oldest is tiring.
And very disheartening to see stuff like "I randomly tried things and X seems to work" which is a very bad solution. But has a score of 100.
You then get to the n-th repetition of something that's probably already in the top answer(s) from a decade ago.
And they have a score of 30 or 50 or whatever.
I'm not even counting the outdated answers. Those are quite fine by comparison.
 
3:31 PM
sigh. As part of my overall work on "how would I redesign Stack Overflow?" I've realized that I need to work out a taxonomy of questions that I'm not entirely sure about. It's going to take quite a bit of thought
 
@KarlKnechtel Yeah... SO solves this by making the taxonomy naturally emerging through user-created tags. Which does make it simpler in some respects. But also we do know of the downsides.
The way Wikipedia handles it is by having rigorous standards for content. And how it's classified.
We don't have that. Tags are about one step away from a wild wasteland.
 
How long has chatgpt been available? It seems like Meta is getting several questions related to it all at once out of nowhere
 
~5 days
 
Ah. Well, coincides with when we started getting these, then. First post was on 02.12
About a day later.
 
3:34 PM
That's because noticing its potential took a few days
There are posts using the system dating back to 30.11, but as time passed, it got more and more attention, and here we are
 
Yeah. I do remember the first post about it "what are you going to do about this?"
I assume it also got a signal boost somewhere. Reddit and/or some YouTuber.
Or maybe Twitter.
You know, the usual wretched hives of scum and villainy.
 
Pretty much
There's also numerous articles about the ban on Stack Overflow now
 
oh, wow
 
meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/421811 Isn't this a duplicate (on meta)?
@ZoestandswithUkraine I suppose we should count ourselves lucky if such articles are not themselves produced by AI.
 
3:41 PM
I doubt it
 
lazy people with zero self awareness
 
Let me simplify that for you: "people"
 
BTW, in the book 1984, there are machines that generate novels for the masses. They just serve as distraction and have no real literary value. I feel we're sort of approaching that age.
 
We have been for a while. Ever scrolled through Amazon's Kindle store?
 
You can crank out a novel, self-publish and set the price to, say, a dollar or something. Any amount of money you get is probably going to more than cover your expenses making that novel.
^ lol, yeah
However, it's probably going to find application on sites like Medium. They already have very dubious quality of posts. Some are very confident in their wrongness. Now you'd be able to generate such posts in bulk.
 
3:55 PM
I kinda gave up on Medium when I sent them the links of 4,000 spam posts live on their site and they said "we'll take care of it" and never did.
 
Then bam, "look ma, I'm a writer" you can pad your portfolio to get writing gigs. Let's say on a site like the SO blog where you can be paid to write an article. And we all know that the quality has some times been lacking.
@Mithical There are some decent authors there. Well, very few. And it's also hard to really find them. You can land on a bunch of Medium articles when googling but so far, I've noticed those articles are the equivalent of ChatGPT generated content. They very confidently describe something and its solution. And are very often off or even completely wrong.
 
The only Medium writer I trust is myself. ;)
 
And, of course, if I'm not registered I can't even do anything about it. If I'm registered, I can only clap for an article or not clap for the article.
 
Is there anything we're supposed to be doing about these answers short of downvoting them?
 
mod-flag for removal
 
4:05 PM
^ what I've been doing.
 
yeah, we're tanking them as we find them
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine *thanking
:P
 
No, tanking; the act of finding someone's location, then running into their house with a M1 Abrams 2 SEP v3, accompanied by a few anti-air and anti-artillery tanks, with a small infantry division for protection, and shoot stuff until they beg for forgiveness
You've never tanked anyone before? :p
 
Apparently, I've been doing it wrong all these years.
 
...not my unit...
 
4:09 PM
I didn't have military service, so how else am I supposed to play with tanks? :p
 
-2
Q: Can I ask for vote up and mark as accepted?

Paulo FernandoIt's very common users comment my answers: "Thanks! that worked". But they didn't mark as accepted and vote up. Can I request them to do that?

 
6
Q: Navigation and UI research starting soon

Bella_BlueWe’ve been running the site satisfaction survey on Stack Overflow since 2019. Since its creation, the Stack Overflow audience has told us that Stack Overflow’s design is a pain point—stating that the design is outdated, cluttered, messy, and unintuitive. It’s clear that many users aren’t happy wi...

 
4:28 PM
@VLAZ SE could kind of skip this step by collecting all the feedback given on the previous design changes. The wording is very vague, so let's see where it takes us
 
> Usability.gov is archived and no longer updated
this would be fun:
> Open Card Sort: Participants are asked to organize topics from content within your website into groups that make sense to them and then name each group they created in a way that they feel accurately describes the content. Use an open card sort to learn how users group content and the terms or labels they give each category.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine I think nngroup is a high quality resource on UX. And I don't know about Usability.gov (first time I've been to that site) but it's just archived. Doesn't mean nothing more than no further articles/edits. Not sure that's a reason to never visit.
But again, I don't really know how good of a resource it is.
 
no idea either - I opted for a Wikipedia link for the general audience
 
5:04 PM
> I promise to come to downvote this answer 20.1.2038
Pff. Don't delay your downvotes!
 
delaying your downvote can sometimes prevent upvotes from happening
 
@KevinB :(
Yes
Too often I've seen a post, pressed V -> D (vote -> downvote) and within seconds the post goes from -1 to zero.
 
5:34 PM
-1
Q: Stack overflow just lost most of my reputation!

Ben the CoderI just logged in today to the Stack overflow website and discovered that my reputation had seemingly come down from 15 to 5. I also lost most of the privileges I had earned, so is this a glitch?

 
5:52 PM
@NewPosts "most". Technically true. But at 10/15 rep it's just a single upvote.
 
6:02 PM
what's fun is they lost more than they should have, because they gained more than they should have... due to not being able to go below 1
the net value of that q/a should have been +8, but it's deletion lost them 10, not 8
 
 
2 hours later…
7:37 PM
6 answers in less than an hour from a 1 rep user
 
7:59 PM
i wonder how rampant this is, or if there's actually a bunch of 1rep users often answering and i just don't notice because it's been forever since i've actually looked at incoming answers. this other user one of their answers looks suspect, but the other 4 from within the same hour... are indistinguishable and not showing any pattern. all 4 from vastly different language tags
:shrug:
one looks like plagiarism, but i cant find a 1:1 source
 
@KevinB which?
 
That's just CGPT
 
cgpt generates "Try This" answers?
 
8:09 PM
:facepalm:
an answer rate limiter similar to the question rate limiter, at least for low rep users, would probably be a farily decent stopgap
 
 
8:25 PM
@Feeds CatGPT
 
8:35 PM
@KevinB Yeah, autogenerated. Look at this answer. It may as well just literally repeat "blah" instead of every word. It's gibberish. The question asks how to assign a type and the answer goes "it looks like you want to define a function that takes an event object as its parameter and returns void. Here's how you could do that: type EventHandler = (event: any) => void;"
New account + multiple answers + in short span of time + answers look elaborate
is a good heuristic to go on. I then spot-check the answers to see if I can spot gibberish
 
yeah i was pretty confident in that one
6 in an hour is a big red flag
the other seemed obvious, but the answers looked quite legit (and are not tags i frequent so i can't really check correctness)
but it being 4 different tags across 4 different answers within an hour..
the plagiarism side of it is sticky
the AI was trained on real content, presumably, so nearly everything it is giving is based on existing content it was fed from elsewhere
 
> Could you please provide a link where I can complain about your harsh, inadequate and inappropriate behaviour?
This is new. Which link should I provide. :)
 
@E_net4thecommentflagger Well, the most technically correct one would be an explanation for how to flag stuff. Although, it's probably bad to just generate flags that would be rejected. You can also provide Meta for real passive-aggressiveness. Because after they post there...well, Meta would happen. Or you can go the fun route and just provide a link that allows you to write to Santa or something.
 
uh
link them here
 
8:45 PM
BTW, @KevinB flagged that user.
Scratch what I said before - go with Zoe's link :D
 
i flagged that one 4 hours ago
;)
the more the merrier
maybe it'll get handled in a year or two
 
0
Q: ChatGPT Ban for Useful Answers

JoshL1516I am wondering if a user admits to using ChatGPT to write an answer, but they have edited and verified the output such that the question is helpful will/should that user be banned? Note: I am not saying that I have done this, but I think that ChatGPT can be a useful tool if users understand it li...

 
@KevinB They get handled quite fast.
But the mods might be tired after a hard day's work.
 
Being out of comment flags makes me sad. I should be more careful. :[
 
8:57 PM
> res.json() broken
i hope the staging ground has a "This title is terrible" button
 
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