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12:05 AM
0
Q: When rollling back your own edit, it shouldn't mark that you edited the post

10 RepI had a hypothetical idea: What if a make a small edit to a post(such as adding a space) and then do a rollback? Will it show at the bottom that I edited it? I tested this shortly after on a post (no link to avoid the meta effect), and it does indeed show at the bottom of the post that I edited...

 
 
4 hours later…
4:35 AM
0
Q: Where would I post a question regarding why 2 pieces of code, which should give the same output, are giving 2 different outputs?

sammanQuestion is as title. I have 2 pieces of code that more or less should give the same output, but they don't. However, the code does work and I'm trying to understand why I'm getting the differences in output. Do I post this on SO or Code Exchange?

 
 
3 hours later…
7:18 AM
@TheMaster Downvotes are messages. Just like upvotes are messages. The root of this is that nobody wants to see "Why the downvote?" on posts.
If anyone wanted to explain what is wrong with a post, they can. They didn't want to. So they didn't do it. Telling someone that "Oh!.. Btw, three days ago someone left a downvote on your post. So it hasn't been on the front page and nobody is going to answer it, and.. yeah, we delayed this information, so you wouldn't go and add this useless comment on your post" is just not very.. welcoming.
 
@Scratte The message is useless. That is my point. In fact most of meta agrees this message is intended for other content viewers and not the OP himself. Isn't that why you burnt the forest on adding a comment with a downvote. Why not go full on that direction? Don't show the message to the unintended recipients
 
Because the vote is also a message. And the faster it gets received, the faster one can respond. Adding a delay will not change the response.
Then you'll just get the "Why the downvote" three days after the fact.
 
@Scratte SO isn't there to answer OP's questions. It is to create content that can be searched for all and get immediate answers. The content rating system is there in place. If anyone wants to help op, they can by adding relevant messages in comments and not useless messages in the form of votes
 
and a whole host of meta-post about: "Why does the system keep my bad posts hidden from me? My post has now accumulated downvotes, and I have not even had a chance to turn is around at the beginning?!? Why? Why is Stack lying?
 
@Scratte What is the message? There is no message except that someone somewhere thinks your question is bad. How is that going to help OP?
 
7:26 AM
@TheMaster I had downvotes on my posts. I looked at them and evaluated them. And I found some of them to be bad.. then I fixed them.
 
@Scratte As I've already said: No lying. "Votes aren't displayed for 3 days as the community reviews your content" . That's it
@Scratte You should be doing that without the downvote.
 
This is not a case of "Something loose in cockpit" -> "Something tightened in cockpit". A vote is a hint.. a mighty big one. Someone thought it was so bad, they didn't even want to comment.
@TheMaster But I didn't know!
@TheMaster In those 3 days the post will absolutely accumulate downvotes. Once it has one downvote, changes are it'll get more. The longer time the post isn't edited into shape. It will make things worse.
@TheMaster That's just semantics: We're honest about deceiving you about the score of your post.
 
@Scratte Big one ... maybe ...but useless. OP is already given tour, How to Ask and [mcve]. There is no need for extra feedback. If someone wants to give feedback, they can comment. If it's so bad that no one wants to comment, then the down vote won't change the fact either. The only reason you won't comment is because you think the post is hopeless and it is
@Scratte If this is put in place, that'll change. The very definition of vote changes as it is disconnected from feedback to OP
 
@TheMaster Me, yes.. others, no. Most users don't comment, because they can't be bothered. And with good reason, because it's time consuming to explain to someone what's wrong with their post. And mostly they don't even listen.
 
@Scratte What deception? The score isn't 0. It just isn't displayed.
 
7:34 AM
@TheMaster Users want to know the score of their posts. That's just the way it is. Did you hide your achievement icon with uBlock?
Do you delay clicking in it when it goes green?
 
@Scratte If you don't care, then don't care. Don't do a half baked job of just providing partial feedback. Comment or downvote and move on. The downvote is for others. You're helping others and not op
 
@TheMaster I'm putting my mark on the post. For everyone to see, including the author! I'm not doing it for everyone other than the author.
 
Any feature request to hide/replace the score of a new question has been shot down too, I believe.
-26
Q: Hide a question's real score from users for some time so that they can't tell that it has downvotes

AtulRecently there have been some very lengthy discussion threads on metaSO on downvoting. Askers have really concerns about downvoting. At the same time downvoters support their stand by saying downvoting is essential to maintain quality of this site. There are various solutions suggested on this pr...

 
I'm saying there's a problem with this content. As a result everyone trusts the author a little less.
@AndrewT. I'm happy about that :) Since.. well. If it's my post, I'd like to know how other users are rating it :)
 
@Scratte Like I said, you're doing a half baked useless job, it the downvote is intended for OP. My proposal is to make "votes" exclusively for others and not op, because it does more bad than good
 
7:38 AM
@TheMaster I'm not intending it for the author. I'm intending it for the post. Of course I also want the author to know, because they are the ones that's suppose to improve it.
 
@AndrewT. My question is distinctly different. Hide only from the asker. Not everyone. That's why it is not a duplicate. Hope someone opens my question
 
..and before you start going off the wrong track here, you can check my comment history versus my voting summary. I comment way more than I vote. But.. I usually comment to no one, because no one replies.
 
Just like building a library of high quality Q&A has a side-effect of solving the asker's problem, downvoting for curation also has a side-effect for the poster to know that something is wrong.
 
@Scratte And the author chose not to( when they posted without due diligence). A vote isn't going to change that. Feedback should exclusively be provided under comments.
 
@TheMaster No, it should not. Not if my opinion. Any feedback should be known to the author. Including non-specialized feedback, like a vote.
Do you also want to hide the fact that a Question is closed? Because that's another source of frustration.
 
7:44 AM
@AndrewT. I agree, but that's not actionable. What's wrong? I think I'm clear. Someone disagrees. I can't ask "why" and the mods delete my comment if I ask. Do you see the problem? The feedback is useless in and of itself
 
How did you comment? Did you mention "downvote"?
 
@Scratte "Closing" provides specific feedback and detail.
 
@TheMaster When you don't know why your post is bad, you can ask if there's room for improvement. There's a lot of ways to go about that. You can ask in chat, meta and a polite comment, like "I think something is off with my post. I'd be grateful if someone could suggest improvements"
 
@Scratte Exactly what I'm suggesting in point#2 of my proposal. If it reaches -3 , suggest to op to ask
 
@TheMaster No, it doesn't. It provides a run-around of links that doesn't even link to the right help-pages. And close voting is notoriously opinionated and often the deal is "Perhaps the reason is wrong, but at least it's closed!"
 
7:48 AM
Because asking "Why was this post downvoted?" making those who don't downvote the posts feeling awkward to help, usually starting with "I didn't downvote your post, but ..."
 
@AndrewT. this isn't about me, but a typical scenario
 
@TheMaster That's just so wrong. How could you ever bring a post back from -3? It's hard enough from -1.
 
Well, but the ideal scenario is: don't ask why the post is downvoted, ask how to improve it.
 
@Scratte The [-3] or [-1] can be decided later
 
anything comments that are linked to (down)vote will certainly be purged, I support that
 
7:50 AM
@TheMaster So.. instead of being told the vote, you get a notification in the inbox: Someone downvoted your post? :)
 
@Scratte It requires at least 3 users to join. It is much better feedback with some English words than a plain anonymous down vote
@Scratte I agree. That's not useful. -3 should be the criteria..-3x2=-6. After improvement, even a single up vote nullifies that
 
Every system that delays the truth, hides it, obscures it or in other way deceives people or users are not considered good systems. People/users want transparency, honestly. They want to know where they stand, and what is happening. Arguing that they will be less frustrated or that the system will be better with less transparency is just foolish, in my opinion.
@TheMaster No.. no single upvote nullifies 3 downvotes. -2 is not a good score. There's no nullifying there. The Question is counted for the Question-ban, and the post is not on the front page.
 
@AndrewT. I got told by a moderator that you shouldn't even ask that. Regardless, Why can't we use comment as a exclusive system of feedback to op and votes exclusively for others? This solves a lot of problems like revenge votes , comment independence from vote(No one will guess the initial comment is the downvoter)
 
I assume this is only for questions, since your proposal is talking about "asker"?
 
@TheMaster What?. If I do not know who downvotes my post, I cannot go and revenge myself on them. And.. if you're assuming that voters will comment if the author doesn't know the score, then I think you've been mislead. They will likely not engage either way.
 
7:58 AM
Because if I gets downvotes on my answers, then I will certainly review it again if something is wrong
 
And.. if I go on a rampage because I've realized that my post is now at -2, I can still target everyone that's commented on it.
 
@Scratte The content is written by OP but not OP's. It's licensed to others. They can chose to provide feedback on the content to others while, since it is not useful to OP, it is hidden
@AndrewT. yes
 
And no, someone who criticizes a post (no matter if they downvote or not) will most likely be targeted for "revenge" downvote
 
@TheMaster Huh?.. So the vote is a hint to other users to edit a post into a good post while hiding this to the actual author? :D
 
Unless.. you make the comment anonymous (it has been asked and shot down many times too)
 
8:00 AM
@Scratte No no.. Time delay changes things.. At that time, op might have received a answer, found a answer elsewhere, question got closed and deleted.
 
BTW. The license doesn't make the post "belong" to others. The content still belongs to the author. The license just means that other people can use it.
 
It still belongs to you, but it might as well not, it's totally out of your control, you can't even control if it gets deleted or not
 
@TheMaster No post should be deleted in 3 days. Roomba takes 10 days, and I really don't think it's often warranted to deprive the author to make edits in those 10 days.
 
@AndrewT. The votes will be hidden for 3 days. The comment if made during those three days can't be tied to the downvoter. If down vote and comment happen at the same time, it can be tied easily.
@Scratte No. It's a mark to avoid this post. Don't waste your time on this
 
For reference, the post being discussed is Hiding votes from β€œaskers only” for a specified period
 
8:03 AM
"If down vote and comment happen at the same time, it can be tied easily." - No, that is wrong and always has been
 
How is this any different than making feedbacks on downvotes mandatory? If OP will not see the downvote I cast, and I have to explain what's wrong with their post in a comment, what's the point of downvoting? Be reasonable for God's sake.
 
I have extra consciousness not to post a comment after seeing a post getting downvoted
 
@Scratte Give feedback in comments. OP doesn't deserve feedback. It's given freely and OP shouldn't demand it. It's not OP's.
 
even if the score/downvote is hidden, how about the rep history?
 
@AndrewT. Me too.. but I overcame it easily after I uBlocked my achievement icon. I'm not very fuzzed about reputation at this point. If someone wants to downvote all my posts, I'll just let them.
 
8:05 AM
@Nick Well anecdotal evidence, I got dinged a couple of times
 
@TheMaster They're not demanding it, are they? Where do they do that?
 
@AndrewT. It maybe hidden too until 3 days
 
@AndrewT. See some of my last comments on the post :)
 
@Scratte I'm not fuzzed about rep either, I just laugh at those who serial downvote me :)
 
@Scratte They don't have the right to demand feedback(i.e., current downvote score). It's not theirs, but the community's.
 
8:08 AM
@TheMaster Ahh.. so now we're into make every Question a wiki-post?
 
@TheMaster well I potentially misread your "can" I read it as "that clearly means they're related" instead of reading it as "it's possible to incorrectly assume that" (and you can understand why from the amount we hear it on meta...)
 
@oguzismail Down voting is for others. Avoid this post. It doesn't look good. Comments is for op. This is wrong or unclear fix it. A downvote says nothing to OP except someone thinks it is wrong/bad. It is useless to OP
 
If it's not my post and I'm not even being told the score, then why am I even attached to it?
 
So basically: is downvoting only for others? Is commenting only for the OP?
 
@AndrewT. Exactly.
 
8:11 AM
Commenting is officially for clarification requests, votes are for signalling the quality of a post
 
I think @TheMaster is a bit confused about the different messages. The vote is ALSO for the author.
But the questions for clarifications are obviously ONLY for the author.
 
@Nick yes. Signaling quality to others. It is useless for OP to know it.
 
If I comment: "related post, [link]", is it only for the OP?
 
And the comments pointing to options for improvements are also MOSTLY for the author.
 
Signalling quality to everyone, if OP sees downvotes it's an indication to improve the post, if others do it's a signal to take the content with a pinch of salt
 
8:13 AM
@AndrewT. In terms of feedback to OP about content , use comments. If feedback to others about content quality, vote!
 
@TheMaster No.. that's what we keep telling you. It's not useless for the author. It's the signal: Something is wrong with your post.
 
@Nick Yes. But what to improve? I have to resort to comment. Don't I? Votes provide no useful feedback to me except people think that something is wrong with my post. But what? It's useless feedback.
 
It's only useless if you don't know what is expected of you (which is why we better need to explain to newcomers our expectations of them and that's on SO to improve the tour and help materials before question posting)
 
@TheMaster Why do you assume that unless someone gives you specific actionable points, that the information is useless?
 
@Scratte And that's what I've been keep telling you: "Something is wrong with your post" means nothing to OP without specifics of "what"
 
8:17 AM
@TheMaster But it's not. "Something is wrong with your post" means something. It's not useless at all.
 
I guess there's a subtle difference between "gray-area questions" and "explicitly off-topic questions"
 
@TheMaster except someone thinks it is wrong/bad I think that's enough, that's often the signal I want the OP to receive. I can assure you that, no matter how long you guys discuss this here, this feature will never be rolled out (again).
 
@Nick Yes. If they didn't read How to Ask, [mcve] and take the tour, downvotes won't change that.
 
Commenting to the latter is... superfluous since the close vote banner will show the reason
 
@oguzismail Hey ... if hiding all downvotes got tested, mine is much better and if we judge fairly, it should also be tested
 
8:19 AM
@AndrewT. But on many occasions an unclear Question is closed as lacks focus, saying: You've asked too many questions. Now, that is useless :)
 
@Scratte yes, I blame SO for that change.
 
@TheMaster yes, and surely you can at least see that assuming people read them then, then there is useful knowledge in downvotes to be had by OP
 
@Scratte Nothing "actionable".
 
@AndrewT. No disagreement from me there. It seems they're also on a roll about hiding the truth from users and giving them destructive advice like "Oh! Your Question got closed? Just ask it again"
@TheMaster Why do you assume that unless someone holds your hand, then you shouldn't be told the truth?
Just because there's no specific actions to take, doesn't mean that no one can research it themselves.
 
Anyway, I give up... not every question deserved to be entertained, just like asking a question is a privilege, not a right...
 
8:23 AM
@Nick Three cases: 1.Op didn't read it on purpose. Downvotes doesn't provide explicit feedback. 2. OP missed it. Down vote still doesn't show links or ask page. 3.OP read it and thinks his question follows all rules. Downvotes still provides no actionable feedback to OP.
 
@TheMaster They can still try to investigate. Make it possible for the user that want to improve, to be able to improve.. don't make it harder for those users to do well.
 
you miss the 4th reason: Tim lost his keys (downvoted for whatever reason, no need action)
 
@Scratte If theres room for improvement, OP should continuously refine his question without downvotes/upvotes. Specfic comments are much better feedback.
 
I got a review-ban on my first day of reviewing. I didn't understand why the were no queues available to me. I went to investigate.. I went to improve. No one gave me any actionable things at all! I did it because I wanted to improve.
How would hiding from me that I did anything bad have helped me?
 
0
Q: When can I post again? :(

DreamLife27 I have a question about my Stack Overflow post: Set value of an ImageButton When can I post again? It's been two freakin' days!

 
8:29 AM
@NewPosts see ya in 6 months...
 
@AndrewT. I'd be surprised by a 6 month ban, they've only had an account for 3 days
 
@Scratte You didn't investigate before. You didn't do your homework. SO can't be filled with questions like these. Receive non specific feedback=> go do your homework> update your posts>get upvotes. No the first question should be of high quality like taking a test=> prepare hard=> pour out every thing=> you'll get your results later as others review your content quality
 
@TheMaster I got a downvote on my Answer. Nothing actionable. I didn't understand why. I read my own post.. twice. I checked it. It was good. It worked. I assumed it was a stray vote. Another time, I read my Answer.. and hmm.. well.. there were a lots of typos and in comparison to the other Answers, it was pretty bad.
@TheMaster My point is that the sooner I'm given the hint, the better. Do not delay telling me that something is not right.
 
@Scratte Let people give it through comments. As you said, There are people like you, who comment and want to help those who are helpable
 
@TheMaster No.. there are people like me, but I do not comment on every single post that needs action. Give users the opportunity to know this even if there is no one to hold their hand.
 
8:35 AM
0
Q: Synonym/Re-tag request for [auto-rotation] and [autorotate]

David BuckLooking into rotation questions for the recent burnination request for rotation, I commented that there were two tags, autorotate and auto-rotation which have 407 and 124 questions respectively. Looking at the questions for both, they appear to be identical in usage, simply relating to screen aut...

 
@TheMaster Actually, I didn't ask any Question about my review-ban on meta. I read about 100 posts.. it later became 500 posts. And I learned about Stack Overflow, meta.stackexchange, arbitrage, licensing, Monica, how-to-Question, flag-bans, you name it.. how things here work.
 
@Scratte -3 should be a consensus. Enough to know op is clearly doing something wrong and send a non specfic feedback. They don't need to get out from -3 to 0. -2 or upto -1 improvement should be enough. They can prepare well for their next test. SO will then have better quality questions without needing feedback.
You don't need to know something is wrong on the first second someone provides feedback. It just shows you didn't prepare well enough for this question. Nothing else. Wait and you'll do better next time
 
@TheMaster I don't think so. Users who do not care, will already not care for the score. They're happy with any answer.. in comments, in the Answer box, it doesn't matter. They're using a throw-away account. Sometimes they'll log in again, but often they don't.
@TheMaster Yes, I do want to know. I can then delete my post while I figure out what is wrong with it!
And no.. no "Do better next time". I want to fix it, not leave trash on the site.
 
@Scratte if you've already prepared well, your question will be reviewed well. If you didn't, -3 would show you. You could only prepare for the next one. Not this one. You've wasted a couple of experts time already. Why should such behavior be rewardedw with immediate feedback? Regardless of all this, stray downvotes can be avoided, as you only receive notification later. 1 downvote means nothing
@Scratte And you should. otherwise you're going to continue to be downvoted
 
@TheMaster No.. that is not true. I asked a Question once.. it was long and boring and it did get a few upvotes. Then.. it got some stray downvotes, so I removed it. And I removed it a few minutes after the second downvote. I do not want to delay such things.
 
8:47 AM
@Scratte And the next two votes may have been upvotes. Who knows?
 
It would be unreasonable to not tell me the minute that things start to go sour that things are going sour.
 
@Scratte Exactly what I'm saying. You can't demand immediate feedback
 
@TheMaster So?.. Two uses didn't like it. That's enough for me.
@TheMaster You're proposing to take it away!.. that's different.
 
@Scratte Or two guys got fired and in a bad mood
@Scratte you're demanding it. You can't
 
@TheMaster Doesn't matter. The post is public and the score is a signal to me and to the world that it's no good.
 
8:50 AM
@Scratte Didn't you say it got a couple upvotes as well?
 
@TheMaster I can not post.. because I'm scared that the truth is being hidden from. I can then go out of my way to find out this truth and spend less time creating good posts.
@TheMaster I don't count those :D
 
@Scratte Not fair ;)
 
@TheMaster It was a Question. It's a honeypot. I don't need one.
 
@Scratte Drama Queen :D- 3 downvotes would do nothing. You're still alive and well. Scared? This is exaggeration.
 
@TheMaster No it's not. Why do users even comment "Why minus my post?!?"
 
8:53 AM
0
Q: Retag [text-rotating] to [text-rotation]

David BuckMy last request resulting from my burnination request of rotation, honest... As I mentioned in that request, there are many tags which end in -rotation. There is one tag that ends in -rotating and that is text-rotating which contains 39 questions. Can we retag text-rotating to text-rotation to ai...

 
@Scratte So we've come full circle. Because the downvote is not specific and useless
 
@TheMaster It's not to me. It was indeed actionable. I even did the action: Delete :)
Oh.. if I wanted more upvotes, I could have made my post less researched. A lot less researched, I'd say.
 
@Scratte Except it may have been a great question worthy of multiple upvotes and helping many. Yet you chose to cut it down in it's infancy. . <= non specific
 
I think our difference in opinion is basically: Transparency. If everyone else knows something about something of mine, let me know it too.
@TheMaster Heh.. are you worried that the world is worse off now? :) I think it had about 50 views and no comments and no Answers (expect my own, since I worked it out). A strange corner case, that if someone ever gets into, I can just answer their Question :D
 
@Scratte You'll know. just wait a few days. If something is out of the ordinary (-3), we'll let you know
@Scratte And you think the world is better off now? Now that you've deleted it? :)
 
9:01 AM
@TheMaster I'm telling you.. I do not want to wait until everyone has had ample opportunity to pile downvotes on. I've seen how fast a post can go down, and it's not pretty.
@TheMaster It's better for me :)
 
@Scratte [-3] is a fair number.
@Scratte May not be for some poor soul, whose only hope was your question:)
 
@TheMaster Not for me. I can maybe turn it around at -1. Not at -3.
 
@Scratte Let's put it to a vote later. -1 could just be a stray. No need to disclose it
 
@TheMaster But.. users already voted, no? On your post. Do you think you can turn that around now?
 
@Scratte I said something like: -1 or -3 after the feature is in beta test.
@Scratte Don't know. But I'll try :)
 
9:06 AM
@TheMaster Turning a post around from a negative is unrelated to this feature. Pick any old post with a -3 score and see if you can turn it around with an edit :D
I'd predict that maybe you can in one of 20 posts.. I predict you can do it more easily if the post is at -1.
 
@Scratte Doesn't mean I won't try. You're just giving extra reasons for why a downvote is useless even for content rating
@Scratte To be clear, What I meant was: After my post is reopened andv the feature request is accepted, let's put a vote for whether it should be -1 or -3. A guy can dream :)
 
Ah, but I never claimed that it's an accurate rating system. I just said that the owner of the post should be aware of the score. Especially since the Question-ban is very sensitive to score. And turning posts around is the way to get out of the ban.
@TheMaster Oh.. that will likely be: never. Considering there are a lot of feature-requests with a score of more than 100 that's been just sitting in limbo for years.
 
@Scratte Exactly why -3 is a fair number as users decide among themselves. -2 to +2 is natural deviation
 
@TheMaster So.. it better for users to try to turn their posts around 3 days after the fact at the score of -3? Rather than immediately at a score of -1? :D
 
@Scratte -1 means nothing. Just natural to and fro. -2 to +2 shouldn't be considered reliable feedback, given the feedback is very unspecific and random in nature(unlike a comment)
 
9:14 AM
See.. the hint/message is not going to be more actionable with the delay. It's just as in-actionable as it's been for the 3 days. Just way to late.
@TheMaster The Question ban doesn't like -1. Nor does it like 0.
 
@Scratte Any action should be taken before. Now it's too late. If something can be improved it'll be commented to you. Simple.
 
@TheMaster No.. no one will comment for the most part. They'll just downvote and move on. Your only chance, if you tried and failed.. it to know you failed as early as possible.
 
@Scratte If this is implemented, I believe that'll change. Also, I see comments in almost all posts in apps script tag within 24 hours
 
Then you can ask your friend: I got a downvote on my post here. Can you see what's wrong with it? Or you can ask in a comment: "I think I missed something in my post, but I'm blind to it. Please tell me what I may have missed". Or you can post on meta. Or you can ask someone in chat. Or.. or.. or.. :)
When I comment on a post, it usually already has downvotes on it.
 
@Scratte Only if your post is considered unsalvageable, it'll get more downvotes without comments
@Scratte -2 to +2 is not worth reviewing, IMO. And you should've asked your friends before and do all research before. After submitting the post, you can only wait for comments or 3days for final result or if something is really bad, you'll be notified.
 
9:22 AM
@TheMaster No.. not only then. But they are mostly the posts I do comment on, because I want to tell the user what is wrong with their post. And yet.. they often do nothing. But, they have a choice.
@TheMaster I did.. I thought it was fine. It wasn't. I missed a detail, I had not considered. Nobody is perfect. I want to fix it before 598 people have seen my mistake :)
 
@Scratte Exactly. If they respond to specific feedback that way, how likely are they going to react to non specific downvotes? Better to just let them be hidden. Just because 1 or 2 will improve doesn't mean mods should engage daily in these dog fights with 1000s who don't
 
@TheMaster No.. because if they do not respond, it doesn't even matter. If they do respond and they do care, they should be given that opportunity as early as possible. Not when it's already too late. To hide this from user that want to improve, is not going to bring in those users.
So.. you'll just get less users that care and more users that don't care.
 
@Scratte For the 1 or 2, it's already too late. This shouldn't be using SO as a testing platform. They should've prepared before. If there's any mistake. There is a mistake. You can't compare voting patterns now to voting patterns when it is implemented. It might be entirely different. People might try comments more without fearing backlash
@Scratte Isn't that already the case?
 
@TheMaster To an extend yes. Lets not make it even worse.
 
-1
Q: post your question greyed out , please resolve it

Tarandeepsinghtoday I tried to post a question but it won't let me , a quick google search indicated that its bug that has been occuring for a while on top right in 1st image it says question ready but I can't click on post your question button

 
9:30 AM
I already have to open up a Question in a different browser if I want to know if it's protected. Why.. o why?!?.. does Stack want to hide this from me when I am logged in?
 
@Scratte This is the remedy. If they've prepared well enough and care enough, Even if they make a mistake, 8 out of 10 times, their post would be high quality and at least half would be upvoted. It's a numbers game.
 
@TheMaster Ahh.. so you're saying that voting is unimportant, and hence users should not even know about it. But only on their own posts, because everyone else should know :D
 
@Scratte Yes. The overall quality should be the main measure as judged by others. My proposal will increase initial quality of the post in the long run.
 
I do not think so though. I think it will make it worse.. because I do not want to spend time refreshing (for 3 days) a post that I posted, so I will post a lot less.
 
@Scratte A lot less is better. More time for research. Less questions means more quality.
 
9:39 AM
Creating a user script that keeps sending requests to the API will also seriously bring down my quota..
@TheMaster No, it is not. Because you're missing from whom you will get fewer posts :)
I don't think I post a lot of crap, but you will get fewer non-crap posts from me :)
You will get the same amount of posts from users that don't care though.
 
@Scratte -3 and post banned quickly
 
They use VPNs.. and other interesting workarounds..
 
@Scratte Surly you're in the minority. More questions in general means more noise
@Scratte At least it's extra work.
 
@TheMaster How is that extra work? It's picking a new host from a dropdown.
 
@Scratte Even for you. If after 3 days, you keep getting +3s on each questions, you'll ask more. It's a pleasant surprise
@Scratte SO has other workarounds as well. Don't they?
 
9:46 AM
I don't ask Question. I only Answer them. I want to know if I do well.. or I need to improve them. If I'm not told without delay, I'll have to figure out how to get told without delay. Until such a time, I'll have to manually monitor my post from another account or from anonymous. I don't want to waste my time doing that, so I'll just post a lot less.
 
@Scratte My proposal only deals with askers
 
@TheMaster Funny you mention that because the Question-ban "feature" and the pile-on downvote mob-like behaviour that I've seen, have already turned me away from asking any Question on this network. I use other networks for that. How very.. ironic, wouldn't you say? :D
So.. maybe the real question isn't: How can we deliberately hide information about how well you're doing here? But instead: How can we bring in more users that want to ask good Questions, but are currently not doing it?
 
@Scratte I still think most questions should be removed. My proposal only deals with avoiding unnecessary confrontation with new users due to the unspecific nature of votes.
 
@TheMaster You're trying to get rid of the ruff.. but nothing is going to do that :) You're getting rid of the better users in the process though.
 
@Scratte Isn't that the point of every meta post, to make the site a better place for everyone?
@Scratte Delaying the votes would do nothing except award good users and bad users a little late. Nothing else changes except unnecessary dog fights.
 
9:53 AM
@TheMaster I think so. But sometimes, the Question asker just gets it wrong ;)
 
Using comments to exclusively provide feedback will increase good question askers and remove bad askers.
 
@TheMaster Ahh.. you're right. Less fighting, more fleeing. Unless you count all the meta-posts about: Why did no one tell me that my post was bad for 3 full days? Why? Why? Why?
 
@Scratte Then they will be provided feedback. A canonical and closed.
 
@TheMaster No. Most bad askers have not even a single comment :D
@TheMaster You'll still have frustrated users.
 
@Scratte if no one told them, the question was particularly unsalvageable. Bad asker. Leaves. Good asker. Stays.
 
9:56 AM
@TheMaster No.. good asker with a bad start, may not stay. I stayed, but I'm never asking again.
..you have a total of: 4 Questions :D
 
@Scratte Acceptable risk.
 
Why do you not ask more? You know everything?
 
@Scratte About the topic in my expertise. Pretty much. I guess I'm a giver and not a receiver:)
 
@TheMaster Ah.. so, you're proposing something based on your expectation that people will ask better Questions if they're not told how well their Question is received until it's too late to change the tide on said post. And that the ones that will stay are the ones that will improve on their skills by this process, while the ones that will leave are the ones that have no intentions of even making an effort.
@TheMaster You receive post that you can Answer. It's like a being given a little puzzle. I assume you do it because you like the challenge or to help someone.
 
@Scratte Pretty much :)
@Scratte Partially true. Comments would play a important role in feedback( rather the only role)
 
10:10 AM
@TheMaster But.. it doesn't scale. It really doesn't. There's not enough users sticking around to deal with all the Questions coming it. Voting is much faster and impersonal :)
Downvote my post and I'll be sure to try to find out why :) Comment "You need to improve your post" on my post, and I'll be sure to try to find why :)
But.. I'll be more likely to respond to the comment, and maybe someone just doesn't have the time.
But I see those comments a lot. From users that had no intentions of actually engaging. Like "What have you tried so far?"
 
@Scratte Nay. All their emotions are involved on both sides. Burning indignation on both sides. They don't say it, but it's personal, vengeful. Removing this link between feedback and voting at least takes some of the emotions out of the process. In summary, specific feedback or non specific 3 days later.
@Scratte comments will be specific. Explain this variable or post this function fully. Quote the text of this error
 
@TheMaster I don't think so. If I get a dent in my car, I'm not going to be less upset just because I didn't notice for 3 days.
 
@Scratte Before the end of 3 days, some one might have bought a better door for that dent and it's better than ever
@Scratte the dent can also be defined as -3 and not -1
 
@TheMaster You're assuming people will actually leave good comments? :) Just looking at my pending flags, I have users asking for code in how-to-Questions, "What have you tried so far?", Answering in comments, "Welcome to Stack Overflow", "Stack Overflow is not a code writing service".. and most of them would be empty if I hadn't put a comment there myself.
@TheMaster What? A dent in my car is not going to fix itself. I need to take care of it. I will be equally upset after 3 days as if I had know on the day.
Just like if I get upset from a downvote, I will not be less upset after 3 days. I will be upset when I'm informed about it.
 
@Scratte What makes you think these people won't down vote for fun and leave? Just by delaying the votes, We are avoiding direct confrontation.
@Scratte Someone would've just upvoted it. Not every question is downvoted because it itself has a mistake. Someone dents it on purpose sometimes.
@Scratte You'll do better next time. Examine what you've done and do better next time. If you take a test, do they give you the answers or feedback in the middle of the test? Or do you wait for results after sometime?
 
10:27 AM
@TheMaster You're not avoiding anything of the sort. There's no direct confrontation with voting. Lets say I post, I get a downvote.. then another.. and then.. 10 minutes later someone posts a comment. I'd be likely to assume that maybe.. the 3 events are unrelated. But what if I'm told that I have 3 downvotes on this post later on. Why would I not assume that the ones that commented are the same ones that voted?
@TheMaster I have those dents on my car too. I just live with them. I can't change it.. because I need a car. I do not need to ask Questions on Stack Overflow :D
@TheMaster We don't want users to abandon their posts. It's not like an exam. We want all the posts to be good. You can't edit an exam.
 
@Scratte You can only assume. By the time you already might have a answer. You won't care. Doing something in the heat of the moment is different from doing something later
 
@TheMaster With multiple choice, you usually get the result as soon as it's in.
@TheMaster My point is that the moment you're being informed is: the heat of the moment. That is when you react.
 
@Scratte I'm tired of saying. Comments are for feedback and that is enough. Votes are used by the rest of the community. If you want feedback, comments may be provided.
 
I don't get more upset about the dent in my car just because it just happened. Than if I only notice after 3 days. It's the same level of upset.
Fair enough.. I've got stuff to do too :)
 
@Scratte that moment is detached from the comments moment
 
10:33 AM
@TheMaster I don't care. I know who commented, and now I'm upset about the votes. So.. who do I focus my reaction on?
 
@Scratte πŸ‘ Nice talking with you. I did get to know your point of view. Thanks.
@Scratte the wall perhaps πŸ˜‰
 
It was a challenging discussion :) Lets have another one.. when there's time :)
 
@Scratte SureπŸ‘
 
 
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