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12:54 AM
Can someone mind making it show each comment's toxicity score, in much the same manner as IPS Comment Bot does in The Closet?
 
 
1 hour later…
2:07 AM
Is this intended as an archive, or review? or Both?
 
 
6 hours later…
8:14 AM
@Makyen I'd say archive principally, If someone think a comment has been deleted, searching for some words in the archive room may help confirming or not and give material to ask about its deletion if it's not obvious why
 
9:00 AM
@Makyen I share Tensibai's view
only @Magisch can give an official statement :P
@gparyani I don't think that would be useful, this is not what this room is about. See previous messages about archiving.
adding "objective" (yeah right) metrics like that would only fuel needless debate and incite further wars and flagging on MSO main
I only think of the room as a record of history
 
 
2 hours later…
11:05 AM
yeah, Heat Detector might be useful on mods-only chat room (to prevent potential "fire"), but on public chat room, it might become a source of entertainment another drama
 
11:55 AM
@GeorgeStocker welcome here :D
 
@Magisch reading the room, I wonder if having the Question title in boson's headline may be a good idea, something like "New comment in X thread posted by Y"
 
Thanks. This makes it much easier to see real-time problems happening in comments.
 
@Tensibai Good idea
 
hi all
 
@GeorgeStocker The original purpose of this was to provide some transparency to comment moderation, but it probably also serves as a very easy and quick way to have an overview over all currently posted comments on MSO without having all active threads open
 
12:02 PM
waves hello
 
@Magisch unintended consequences sometimes cut both ways, I guess?
 
as long as you don't extend your generosity with deletion to the archive it should be a win-win
 
@GeorgeStocker I consider this a win-win situation
 
I find it pretty usefull, but my last "idea" comes from that, I've a hard time figuring which comment relates to which questio
 
@Tensibai that's what context is for
and in any case the archive is not there for non-mods to popcorn over with
 
12:04 PM
@AndrasDeak chat deletion has the same rules it’s always had.
 
@Tensibai I pinged bhargav with the idea, as it's his boson bot that's running this, but I also find it a good idea
 
@GeorgeStocker works for me
 
From my perspective if it’s bad enough to delete in both chat and as a comment, we should probably be having a private conversation with that user about their behavior.
 
@AndrasDeak That's not to popcorn but let's take "@George that’s pretty pathetic. I’m also out. No peace." <- In isolation I'd consider it rude
 
@Tensibai it's also rude in context
 
12:05 PM
In any case, posts reported by Boson are also fully saved to the higgs archive tracker, so nothing is every truly gone unless someone pings bhargav to purge it from the database
@Tensibai I consider this rude even having read the context
 
if you're curious, click through to MSO main and read it in context to decide if you want to flag it
 
@AndrasDeak Ok, agree it's rude
 
For a mod it’s a normal Friday
 
calling someone pathethic is a non starter in a respectful discussion imo
 
I just try to understand why it comes to life, in other word is that just anger at a warranted comment deletion or kind of 'over the top'/border line comment ?
@AndrasDeak I've clicked, I see geoge's comment about not berating the user
 
12:08 PM
Again, click through for context. I don't see your problem.
 
And I've no idea if this qualificative is warranted or not from the deleted comment as I can't make the link
 
@Tensibai yes, George deleted the comment thread. You can look at the other user's comments in the archive.
 
I'm just saying as actual I'd favor trusting george judgement
 
If you're hankering for context, you can filter for all comments ever posted on this post by using the search string _388058
 
@Magisch that's a usefull tip :)
 
12:13 PM
I don't think it was that user that was doing the berating, I don't know why their comments were also deleted (and not only some of them)
 
And indeed that helps clearing out the fact and reassure me
@AndrasDeak The full starting thread has been deleted, and indeed it was heading to just argument
 
such are the mysteries of life
 
I mean
 
BSL comment has been turned into an answer, no idea who deleted it, but that sounds ok
 
mods can only turn answers into comments, not the other way around, so probably self-deleted
 
12:15 PM
I'm not so sure I agree with everyone making an immense deal of comments being poofed more readily on posts like these. OP got good advice in the form of an updated answer, the comments were at best echoing that and at average off topic
I agree when it comes to policy discussions that heavy handed comment moderation should be avoided but for something like this?
This isn't even tuesday, this is 5 minutes on tuesday
 
I think it's just that everyone's on edge
 
Aww, I wasn't on the mind to make a fuss of it, that was just a case where I see something in meta, wonder what triggered it and looked at the archive :)
 
I wouldn't blink flagging a similar discussion on main as obsolete where half the comments were echoing the correct and upvoted answer and the other half fluff
yea I know :p
Probably just everyone being on edge
I hope the archive helps that a bit
 
@Magisch in that case the comments would just disappear. But here there was an unclear mod note muddying the waters
 
by enabling people to contest deletions individually as wanted
@AndrasDeak fair
 
12:19 PM
@Magisch I think so
 
@AndrasDeak I'm a bit reluctant to ask as it's just pushing the ball to roll, but I'm unsure of what you mean here. The fact George commented to explain why he deleted the comments ?
 
Yup. He said something about "berating other users" and a user who probably wasn't the culprit in said berating took it to refer to themself
miscommunication doesn't help when people are on edge
 
Ok, I see what you mean, the overall exchange was just heading to an argument on a nitpick and was rightfully stopped, avoiding "berating" and just saying "Comment were deleted because the answer cover the talk here and it is sliding to an argument" may have avoided the 2 next comments maybe ?
 
Something like that. Or not leaving a comment at all. Or George clarifying that the offended user didn't do anything wrong, but that's probably asking too much.
 
@GeorgeStocker I hope I didn't offend you surfacing this specific event :/
 
12:27 PM
Not at all. At the time I deleted the comments the answer did not yet exist in my mobile view
I deleted the comments because the others were berating the user and the user that first got upset was effectively saying something that was somewhere between irrelevant to the new user’s specific question and an unkind dunk on the fact that it is a new user. In the context of the other comments it’s a pile on situation.
Meaning if that comment was by itself I may say “that is not helpful to this users specific question; and how would you feel if you were new to a site and that’s the first thing someone said to you. But with all the comments it felt rude of me to leave the dunk as a first users impression.
 
I'm not arguing about deletion :)
 
yeah, I think we're only musing about the misunderstanding
 
The user was asking “is it cool to promote posts on Reddit?” Given the context of not having any answers, they were asking permission. They came to us and asked permission! Us saying “you don’t have any answers, fix that first” is... unhelpful.
 
The sparkling point was the "please upvote it" in the proposed text if I read properly
 
Yup. I’m fleshing it out because while you aren’t, the people who are upset about comment deletion likely will.
Why would anyone post a link with the hopes that people downvote it?
 
12:34 PM
Well, I mean there's been a crossfire, there was comment just saying that "please upvote it" isn't really well perceived
 
I'm not sure I agree that any individual comments were rude there, but they certainly gave a harsh first impression and most of them did not really have anything to do with the subject of the question?
 
Besides the uselessness of arguing with a user about that, it doesn’t even practically make sense for them to ask people to downvote it.
But now we are getting to why answers are better than comments.
 
so with the answer there there's really no need to have any of these around. Also the question is natural. Cross promotion is a common technique all over the web, and wikipedia, a project to which ours is often likened, has opaque and extreme rules against it.
 
After it has turned into an argument and there's nothing good with it of course, but I may understand one the commenter finding "berating" as unjustified
 
Reinforcing why maybe it’s bad idea to give justifications in comments about why comments are deleted.
 
12:37 PM
Or maybe blame ESL and I'm misunderstanding "berating"
 
“My comment wasn’t bad.” Said the sea-lion.
 
@GeorgeStocker Or maybe stick to the fact "the exchange wasn't constructive and heading to an argument" ?
 
@Tensibai from a practical perspective do you think it would result in more justifications or less justifications if we needed to spend 5 minutes workshopping what to say when we delete a swath of comments for different reasons or to call out which user on which reason they were deleted?
From a practical perspective it’d be far more productive and useful to just delete and move on without going the extra mile of explaining why.
 
@GeorgeStocker well, TBH, if I had seen in the archive quickly what trigerred it I wouldn't have mention it at all :)
 
If someone really cares about their argument, they’ll put it in an answer. Comments are kinda like being employed at McDonalds, easy to hire, easy to fire.
 
12:41 PM
Agree, I'm not asking you to justify each time, and I appreciate when you do
 
In this specific case not leaving a comment would've prevented confusion that arose from the misleading comment, so in that way comment-less deletion is better. We can't expect mods to nail the explanation each time anyway.
 
Just sharing idea about "How the wording in a justification when it's made may minimize talks about why they were deleted"
 
But again I think the fundamental issue is trust. If community trusts our mods to delete only what is necessary and do so justly then this whole debate doesn't arise. Explanations for deletions are only necessary because a lot of people don't have that trust for various reasons.
if we get out of this gloomy pit that the company pushed us into again and relationships stabilize, the whole issue should solve itself
 
I'll a bit repeat myself here, but there's a pattern of choosing to deliver news at the worse possible time for them being correctly perceived
If only things could have settled a bit after meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/387370/…
No new removal/policy change/<whatever itch> before a 5 or 6 FR have been deployed, things would have been far easier...
 
At some point, interactions on meta flip flopped. It used to be that arguments for or against a viewpoint were put in answers; and yes those answers were debated in the comments; but arguments — serious arguments, and not just snipes — were in answers.
Now, arguments are made in comments and are not easily found, mixed in with snipes and unkind words. When you find yourself moderating these; it’s hard to separate and make the judgment of “this is a gem” when all of the comments start to look alike.
Putting it into an answer represents that you care enough about the issue to put it in a permanently findable place and that you believe in it enough to have others downvote it or to leave comments on it
 
12:51 PM
@GeorgeStocker Perhaps that's when you should step back and let someone else do the classification?
 
I liken it to going up to the open mic vs shouting from the back of the room.
“There’s too much shouting in this room, if you want to be heard, come up to the mic.” crickets
At the point where the entire room prefers to shout from the back instead of coming up to the mic, I think you’ve reached the point that they no longer realize the effect on shouting from the back.
2
 
You're rehearsing a point you already made a 100th time which I've a hard time relating to what was said above
 
@GeorgeStocker there are always plenty of answers on meta, and most comments don't add anything substantial enough, and they might only make sense in context, as critique for instance
 
It’s the first time for this analogy; but yes the point is the same and has been made by moderators and employees alike since meta started: if you want something to stick around, put it in an answer. Make it a viewpoint.
 
you might not know how to sing a good song for the audience but you might still want to indicate that the previous singer was off-key, which you mostly do by heckling
 
12:55 PM
Does the heckling make anything better or does it just lake the heckler feel good?
 
there's both kinds, but people with worse hearing might not notice the off-key singer until pointed out
 
Ok, the subject is clearly derailing on something else...
 
The person who says “there was a grain of truth to something that heckler said, let’s write up something around it and flesh it out” is the real mvp.
 
@GeorgeStocker that won't happen if you put bouncers at the back that kick anyone trying to heckle
Some comments are without doubt noise or harmful, but again others are definitely constructive and with merit as comments. I only object to the absolute nature of the new policy.
 
Ideally we'd all start being more willing to write answers, even short, single viewpoint ones, and stop doing that so much in comments
getting your even tangentially related answer NAA deleted on meta is practically unheard of
so it'll most certainly stick around
 
1:02 PM
But we also don't have a web of answers that point to other answers, requesting clarification or formulating critique. And it would certainly sound weird to me.
 
The Q/A format is not made to answer making a point toward another answer, that's just crazy and unusable
 
@AndrasDeak if my choices are “let people heckle and hope someone puts it into a coherent write up” and “keep hecklers from heckling and they stop coming.” Then I don’t think there’s a real choice there. After a few hecklers leave maybe the rest would say “gosh, heckling isn’t having the effect I want, maybe I should start writing up critiques instead of shouting them from the back”
 
Thats true, but a lot of comments aren't really addressing other answers, they make unique points
I'm guilty of this too, a comment is easier and less emotional investment then a full answer
a full answer can get downvoted, and we all know the sting of what happens when you catch meta on the wrong foot
 
@Magisch a million times this. It requires no effort. An answer requires the person think about their argument and flesh it out and leads to better understanding on everyone’s part
 
Ok, case in point then (on mse): meta.stackexchange.com/questions/331513/…
 
1:04 PM
@GeorgeStocker "maybe", but I don't think so. All evidence of human nature points to more hecklers swarming in being angry they can't heckle. And you'll always have a steady stream of angy hecklers who had no idea they shouldn't heckle.
 
Would that make sense as an answer ?
 
@Magisch those should be moved. But I've heard the "comments responding to comments" argument, which I just can't accept as a general rule. Removing those clearly bias attempts to clarify or remove inaccuracies in posts.
 
One problem begets the other
 
I just feel there are several anti-patterns as well as idiomatic behaviour being mushed together by the proposed policy that (mostly) George tries to uphold
 
@Tensibai if the comments we’re talking about were all like that we’d be in an amazing place
 
1:06 PM
if people stop posting answers in comments, people stop responding to comments as if they were answers and do that to answers instead
as a side effect, following a specific line of inquiry as an outsider becomes easier as well
 
If it was about: "Ok, we'be been to lax on snark/harsh comments, let's flag more and make the place more civil" I'd be full in
 
It is more or less that though
 
it's more, not less
 
But the actual position goes far more than that and open the door to debatable moves
 
"comments that are on-topic but should be answers instead" and friends are neither snakry nor harsh, nor off-topic usually
as I said, multiple kinds of comments being treated as if they're the same "problem"
 
1:08 PM
much as I am an advocate for meta if it was my job to keep up with the endless vortex of negativity and veiled insinuations i'm actually involved in a nefarious scheme behind the scenes and I could see deleted comments I would probably reconsider wanting to work there
2
and having answer threads hidden between the insults and questioning of my competence or good faith so that I have to scan those lest I miss a highly relevant argument is ... not great
 
Sorry, I've a hard time parsing that
Ok the last sentence cleared it up
 
The people who seriously think any moderator wants to quash arguments is far more invested in the meta part of meta than moderators are.
Meta is a means to an end. It is a means to effect changes on Stack overflow.
 
So there are 2 distinct problems here, one is less bad then the other (the answer threads are less bad then the insults et al) but they both reinforce each other, and become worse then the sum of their parts
so something is needed to break up this dynamic if we want constructive dialogue at some point
 
We want to keep it focused on effecting change on Stack overflow and it’s impossible to do that when the mentality is to heckle and hope someone walking in understands what their actual argument is from the noise in the room
The problem that led us here is the hecklers have grown in number and gotten louder we are getting open-mic’rs who are like “why would I want to go there?”
“It’s disorganized, it’s unruly, and I can’t make heads or tails of what people are trying to say”
 
@Magisch And I'll cycle: presenting that as "We, mods, are going to tighten the moderation of comments" instead of "Could we, as community, tighten what is acceptable on comments" , shortly after the slaps from HMP is probably not the best approach to break that
Worst effect, it has undermined the confidence in mods (or we wouldn't be there to start with)...
 
1:17 PM
@Tensibai from my personal (subjective) judgement the issue was not the mods' decision, because there was no decision. Exactly the issue that undermines confidence is the haphazard change in policy in the middle of the debate that tries to solicit community feedback about the same policy.
if mods said "OK, we're moderating meta comments hard now, get used to it" I'd be much less pissed than I am now
If the community isn't on par with the mods and the mods aren't on the same page it's all chaotic, which is exactly what we're seeing now. Chaos begets uncertainty and mistrust.
I believe we're much worse off in the long run with this improvised mess of a moderation change.
 
@AndrasDeak the post you saw was a compromise between the viewpoints
 
Do you mean Madara's post?
 
I don't mind Madara's post. I mind that it was an explicit attempt to ask the community what to do. And then it was all thrown out the window, but only by some of the mods from what I can tell. That is my issue.
3
And before you say I should raise my concerns in meta posts: I did. And Madara agreed with me, albeit in a comment :P
 
A bunch of answers did address what's not welcome with the proposal as it stands, listening to it and adapting the policy, doing a second attempt to ensure everyone's on the same line and then enforcing it wouldn't have created issues at all
 
1:25 PM
Agreed. I have been deleting comments very sparingly, and only when flagged on this thread (most commonly, obsolete comments leftover from the deletion of others). Until a decision is made, moderators should act the same as they always have. — Madara Uchiha ♦ 2 days ago
^ that is my problem, i.e. the lack of "moderators should act the same"
the mods starting to enforce a policy (not even agreed upon by mods, from what I can tell) during the debate of the policy pulled the rug out from under Madara's feet, severly harming good-faith outcomes
 
@GeorgeStocker is a followup with conclusions drawn from it coming?
 
and those mods are also responsible for Madara taking flak, because his question of what to do now seems as a passive-aggressive announcement of the change
 
@AndrasDeak I read it; the analogy is a bit off but the viewpoint is interesting and reinforces that a good number of people are so used to the heckling they don’t see the problem.
 
Okay?
 
But, because getting into a debate in the comments will neither change your mind or mine, I elected not to respond in the comments.
 
1:31 PM
I didn't expect any less
@GeorgeStocker My bottom line is "please don't apply policy on a question asking whether to apply the policy". Did you understand this part? And if so, why do you disagree with it?
Seems like a straightforward request in any kind of debate. Partly courtesy towards the community, but in any case courtesy toward Madara who thought it's worth asking the community first.
 
@Magisch there will likely be an attempt to codify what’s happening but it’s going to have the usual caveats.
Right now I’m putting some thoughts towards a meta post from yesterday and will attempt in part to explain some of it there.
@AndrasDeak in my personal opinion, to use our analogy from earlier, asking hecklers whether or not it’s ok to enforce the “no heckling” sign that’s been in the room since day one is a bit... odd.
 
But once you start asking your hands are tied...or so I'd think.
Can you try to see how it comes across when you disregard this process started by a fellow moderator no less?
 
Further, saying to hecklers, If you want to be heard write down your heckles into coherent notes seems to be th way. You’re giving people an avenue to constructive participation.
1 min ago, by George Stocker
@AndrasDeak in my personal opinion, to use our analogy from earlier, asking hecklers whether or not it’s ok to enforce the “no heckling sign” that’s been in the room since day one is a bit... odd.
 
I'll try to detach from my biases here and make sure I understand correctly: you don't give a damn because people on meta are just a noisy crowd, so any kind of due process is meaningless because you know for a fact that these comments should be deleted?
 
@AndrasDeak are all the people on meta heckling?
(Again, to use our analogy from earlier)
 
1:39 PM
I'm getting weary of analogies
But if you insist: the premise is that hecklers and singers and stand-up comedians are all invited to the room to share their thoughts on whether heckling should be forbidden in the future. Which implies that it's not forbidden for the time being. Or so some would think.
 
The sign has been hanging out since day one, some people follow the sign, some don’t. We are saying that we are now enforcing the sign. That’s going to make the people who didn’t read or follow the sign very angry. The ones who were like “yea, or course you shouldn’t heckle” will go about their business.
 
okay, we're not getting anywhere
you seem to blank out the whole issue of Madara initiating discussion with the community
 
@AndrasDeak not at all, I responded directly to it twice.
 
I guess I tried
 
6 mins ago, by George Stocker
@AndrasDeak in my personal opinion, to use our analogy from earlier, asking hecklers whether or not it’s ok to enforce the “no heckling” sign that’s been in the room since day one is a bit... odd.
I would also add “unproductive” to “odd”.
 
1:42 PM
I already read it the first time
this would only be an argument if we were before Madara's post, and you were trying to convince Madara not to post his post
 
The non-hecklers were like “oh, ok. They’re finally enforcing that sign” and went on with their day.
 
what you think about asking the community is totally irrelevant now :)
 
“The community”. I think someone somewhere recently made the point that “the community” doesn’t hold just one viewpoint.
 
With all language gymnatics in the world I don't know how else it can be seen when a moderator asks a discussion question on meta. What is that if not asking the community?
 
If this causes the hecklers to say “I’m done heckling, I’m going elsewhere” then I’d say mission accomplished. If it causes the hecklers to say “ok, I want to participate constructively so I’ll stop heckling” I’d also say “mission accomplished.”
(Again, to use the analogy from earlier)
 
1:45 PM
And what is +89/-251 votes if not community? And the bunch of upvoted answers mostly rejecting the change or accepting it given better tooling with moving to chat and whatnot?
I'm not sure what you're trying to say other than "people who don't agree with me don't even belong to the community"
 
@AndrasDeak you are of course welcome to interpret it in any fashion that suits you; but I’ve made what I said hopefully clear: constructive participation is encouraged, non-constructive participation is discouraged.
 
you're always loud and clear
 
2:07 PM
In the future, I think all meta discussions are better to be done on periodic Town Hall chat room instead...
 
there will be no meta discussions, because they are pointless :P
we'll start an email-based newsletter disseminating the policies and changes
 
At least I've found a partial answer to one question I had: votes are not the reason of negativity perceived by employees: data.stackexchange.com/meta.stackoverflow/query/1085241
 
go do a SEDE query for "perceived votes"
 
2:22 PM
I trying to see the mostly negative scoring ones
So I assume that's mostly comments ?
I should probably exclude Shog, he's overrepresented :D
 
2:44 PM
Raw data 162 post with score 0 or negative on 4579 by employees (take or less, as the list of employees id may be incomplete)
 
@AndrewT. naa we use Twitter now!
 
 
1 hour later…
3:53 PM
Happy august everyone, leaving for vacations :)
 
 
2 hours later…
5:24 PM
The archive looks useful... the comments even got starred as a marker...
 
Hmmm... I'm not that thrilled with having comments starred in there. What is having them starred supposed to mean? How are people that view the room going to interpret the fact that a message is starred? Is starring going to attract inappropriate attention to some messages?
 
I dunno because I'm not the starrer, but the current one is for comments that got deleted and contested on the linked post.
Also, anyone can bookmark a transcript in addition to starring it...
(just FYI in case the policy is to ban and remove stars and bookmarks)
 
@Makyen yeah, I think we should probably unstar them. @Magisch?
 
go ahead
 
5:39 PM
Might as well to add that notice to the room topic...
 
@Magisch done (and thanks)
 
@Magisch thanks
So, what is the policy for stars and bookmarks? Total ban?
 
yeah, sorry, already edited the topic
 
I'd prefer if people didn't
 
5:43 PM
bookmarks are difficult because only mods can remove them :/ Better to just ignore them and hope that most users aren't aware of their existence
 
The archive is supposed to be an archive and as little as possible else
 
I'd prefer ^ that.
 
yup
 
BTW: if there ends up being a lot of stars, there's a userscript Chat mass-unstar script, which allows quickly unstarring multiple starred messages.
 
@Makyen great, that might come handy
 
5:49 PM
Yeah, it's not something I use often, but it's certainly helpful when needed.
 
 
1 hour later…
6:52 PM
hey @Loong
 
 
5 hours later…
11:48 PM
@Tensibai oddly enough (or actually, not that odd to me) the employees with the most downvotes seem to be the ones who are not calling for an end to meta...probably because they actually used it before being staff and know what it means
 

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