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5:01 PM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Modus Tollens
@bmm6o It's not just that. It's that OP didn't seem to be interested in getting help or learn about the site at all. This happening as often as it does is incredibly frustrating. Whatever happened to the old custom of getting aquainted with a site they're going to post on? It should be common sense to read help topics and listen to users trying to explain. — Modus Tollens 24 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
@HereticMonkey: You can successfully edit some rants to be less ranty. This was not one of them. — Makoto 29 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Bhargav Rao
Sure, we can. Once we get enough community support here, we can remove it. — Bhargav Rao ♦ 31 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@HereticMonkey anyone can see it in their profile and the meta people already went there to try to delete it. I'm not sure putting a link to it does any worse than what the people on meta can already do. — George Stocker ♦ 44 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Heretic Monkey
So, you're saying we should change the intent of their question by editing it?!? Also, editing in a link to their question would invoke the meta effect on it, probably compounding the user's frustration. — Heretic Monkey 2 mins ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by charlietfl
Can't put lipstick on every pig, but that's what this answer seems to suggest. If someone isn't willing to engage after initial rant and are politely asked to discuss rationally ... their attitude is not likely to change. — charlietfl 30 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
@GeorgeStocker: In this answer you've provided, could you edit in what you would've transformed it to? That'd actually help me see where you're coming from in all of this. — Makoto 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@Makoto I disagree with both of you on this; I won't undelete the post as it has 29 downvotes; but it's pretty easy and quick to turn it into a constructive question. — George Stocker ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Modus Tollens
In my experience a ranting user is in a mindset that often prevents them from being open to suggestions. I've seen more than a few users that got really angry when their question was edited to be more neutral. Sometimes users just want to rant. Maybe it could help to lock such a question for a while before editing it. — Modus Tollens 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@makoto I've edited my answer to provide my edit. — George Stocker ♦ 22 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Heretic Monkey
@GeorgeStocker If that had been suggested as an edit, it would have been rejected as "clearly conflicts with the author's intent". You are putting words in the OP's mouth. — Heretic Monkey 11 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@Makoto Do you sincerely believe my edit did not improve the post? — George Stocker ♦ 13 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
@GeorgeStocker: Now it reads like something entirely different; like someone was putting words in their mouth. That might have been what they were trying to say, but they had an opportunity to express at least a modicum of that direction themselves. Edits don't exist to completely reshape content; they exist to improve content. I'll leave it at me disagreeing with your edit in that this would've improved things. — Makoto 43 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
If you were going for "improvement", then sure, it's an improvement. If you were going for actually fixing the root cause, then no, it didn't really do that. It has never been policy on Meta to edit a rant for the sake of "improvement", since there's no likelihood that the OP is as engaged in the solution as one was with the edit. I earlier said "modicum of direction"; if the OP had instead actually led off with their question in the Meta question, then perhaps this would be a more wholesome edit. Right now, it feels hollow. — Makoto 17 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
@psubsee2003 here you go, I didn't bother to redact the usernames involved. We're all grown ups here, we can handle the critique / public bashing: i.stack.imgur.com/LOstF.pngrene 9 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by mason
You state that you're on Meta on a quest to make things more civil (a noble goal)....yet you're deleting posts that are entirely civil? How does deleting those comments make things more civil? And if it doesn't make things more civil, then why are you bringing up civility in these comments? — mason 25 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
My underlying opinion is that the meaning of that post was to rant. — Makoto 33 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@rene I liked your comment on that post; thank you. — George Stocker ♦ 50 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@makoto I use our standards for editing to edit. That's one post, there are dozens more like it. — George Stocker ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@Makoto if people only came here on their best days this place would be pretty quiet. If things are going well there's very little reason to visit meta. We can either close the door on them, or say, "Yea, we get you're frustrated", and help them fix it, thereby turning them from an enemy to an ally; and also that would point to the powers that be that meta is serious about welcoming new users and trying to constructively improve Stack Overflow's image. — George Stocker ♦ just now
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Will
I read that question and was struck by how easy everybody was going on OP. — Will 58 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Bhargav Rao
[asio] has been on my checklist for a long time now, related posts 1. meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/339380/… 2. meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/253796/…. This isn't simple, but I'm open to opinions as to how we can solve the entire problem with ASIO, Steinberg ASIO and Boost ASIO — Bhargav Rao ♦ 16 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Modus Tollens
@GeorgeStocker Does this really work in enough cases though? What about users who strongly disagree with edits that change the tone of their question that much? Is this really what we want to do? — Modus Tollens 21 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
I've had great success with people asking questions about why their posts were closed or downvoted and what they could do better. Those OPs came to Meta - and they may have been upset about it too - but they did so in a wholly constructive manner. There was no comparison to us and IRC or anything untowards, and those users are the ones I feel I really made a difference with. You've admitted yourself that you haven't been on Meta in a while; this is practically my pied-à-terre. I've dealt with these users for years. It'd be nice if I could give you the benefit of my experience. — Makoto 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by sarsnake
get over yourself — sarsnake just now
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@makoto I've got a lot of meta experience, given that I've been here from the beginning. I am in awe of the number of meta questions you've answered, major kudos for that! — George Stocker ♦ 10 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
You pulled an entire topic out of basically nowhere and completely changed the topic of the question. Any question can be improved by completely replacing it with a different question, but such edits are not allowed under the current rules. — Tiny Giant 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Modus Tollens
@GeorgeStocker The screenshot (posted in the comment thread on this meta question) proves how civil everybody was. Still the comments were seen as hostile? — Modus Tollens 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@ModusTollens If a user is upset that their rant was edited into a constructive question, then we've done all we could; but then we could say "We tried to help you. We even modeled the right behavior", and if we've done that, who can ask any more? — George Stocker ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@TinyGiant I've been making those edits since I've been here at Stack Overflow; far longer than I've been a moderator; I don't think anyone's ever told me "don't do that". — George Stocker ♦ 5 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@ModusTollens Where did I say the comments were "hostile"? — George Stocker ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Modus Tollens
@GeorgeStocker I am sorry, you didn't say that directly. But the question was "Is this how we want to treat newcomers" and mentiones the comments, and your answer seemed to agree. — Modus Tollens 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by gnat
you both sound as if social media activity is somehow inherently bad. I am sorry but I haven't seen compelling reasons why it could be so, especially in cases when company chooses to lead by example and do just that. What you propose instead seems to be that people should cut their media activity in cases when it may interfere with meta or with SO (the company) actions - this just doesn't feel right — gnat 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by BSMP
You didn't. It's the OP that said that Makoto's comment in particular was unwelcoming. — BSMP 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by charlietfl
@GeorgeStocker should be a diplomat! Retracted my lipstick on pig comment. Changing question from rant to completely different tone might elicit a constructive answer that OP would view at later time frame and perhaps become a convert. Glad I'm not in customer service field — charlietfl 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
I'm trying every day to write better and nicer comments @GeorgeStocker but to be honest it doesn't matter that you liked the comment. Did the comment work for the OP and did they took action to tell on twitter that they received helpful comments and an answer during their visit on Meta. That is what matters ... — rene 7 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by mason
@Will But it got 29 downvotes. I think that's what is being claimed as vicious. — mason 55 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by weegee
@Makoto had this problem today even and when using the responsive method (the one the in the answer provided, which you linked) The flag option scrolls horizontally and doesn't scroll back leaving us unable to flag — weegee 1 min ago
 
5:39 PM
 
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Jeanne Dark
There's no Tumbleweed badge anymore. — Jeanne Dark 41 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@rene if everyone did what you did then there'd be evidence of us trying to reach out and be welcoming, and I thank you for modeling the behavior we want to show the world. — George Stocker ♦ 59 secs ago
 
room topic changed to Meta Stack Overflow Comment Archive: A comprehensive archive of all Meta Stack Overflow Comments. Currently Running the SOBotics Boson Tracker to fetch comments. Please do not star messages here and do not request access. For relevant chat and discussion, please use the Workshop: chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/197325 [archive] [comments] Meta Stack Overflow
 
5:57 PM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tom
@DavyM You forgot the malicious 29 people disagreeing with that person instead of giving him/her all the food they have. That's horrible. — Tom 14 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by mason
Can you elaborate on specific things that were embarrassing, and why? — mason 24 secs ago
 
6:19 PM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
 
6:35 PM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by gnat
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Craig Meier
@GeorgeStocker With due respect, those numbers support the assertion of rare participation: excluding the flurry of activity since the removal of HMP and introduction of aggressive comment deletion, I count one question and one answer in the last year and a half, and a total of five posts since the start of 2017. There's a decent amount of growing apart that can happen in two and a half years. — Craig Meier 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by fbueckert
I think flipping it around helps the perspective; is this how we want to be treated by newcomers? Pretty sure that's an emphatic no. And yet, here we are, on a subjected on regular basis to such rants. Lots of people have made suggestions on how that can be alleviated, and unfortunately, none of those have come to fruition. Many of those suggestions would almost entirely eliminate these rants. — fbueckert 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by TylerH
Wait, so you're deleting comments today because you think they might not be useful in a month? That's... ridiculous. Wait a month and then re-visit them for deletion if you think that. Such a criterion is basically the same as deleting a Q&A pair on main that's been answered/accepted because "OP has fixed their code so they no longer have the problem". — TylerH 30 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Patrice
No, you can say that Makoto was unwelcoming, if it helps to fit the current mold of "we didn't bend over backwards, reopened your question, answered it, made sure you knew how to apply it, while also giving you a backrub and offering you 1000$ for opening a question on our site" that a lot of users seem to take (in other words: some of these users will think anything that isn't "I am getting the answer to my question" is unwelcoming....) — Patrice 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Zoe
@pushkin in this context, it means they stop contributing to the site, and only read content (because, let's face it, SO still has answers to many questions, even though far too many new questions are trash). This is not to be confused with Stack Overflow's read-only mode, which temporarily locks down the site (usually for maintenance - it's a contribution block for everyone) — Zoe 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Rudolf Olah
agreed on the issue with external code; however for something like angular or react, version numbering is even more important since the apis can change a lot between versions. I think Stackblitz or whole project snippets elsewhere can help with that, though I guess the real solution is just to include the version numbers or a snippet of the package.json — Rudolf Olah 24 secs ago
 
7:03 PM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Davy M
@Tom I don't think the 29 downvotes have any useful comparison in that example. A reason to downvote is "This post is not useful." There is nothing useful about a rant. It also didn't show any research effort, as there are plenty of guidelines to help a user improve their questions. Nothing about the downvotes or the behavior of the users who cast them was malicious or horrible. It wasn't even disagreement, it was just labelling the question for what it was (Not useful and not well researched). — Davy M 57 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
Huh. I was called unwelcoming. I must've just tuned that part out in the OP's question here. — Makoto 36 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
The main point I take umbrage with to your edit is that you keep the whole "this is insulting" rant part which adds negative value to the discussion. George did the same thing. I did mention - you have to understand that the intent of the post was to rant, not to seek help. In the comments they had an opportunity to actually clarify their position, but they didn't edit their question. We don't exist to edit questions like this on the OP's behalf. We can clarify a message, but it's hard to clarify "I hate this place because y'all's negative" any better than what the OP did. — Makoto 19 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by TylerH
You can already vote on comments in chat as scohe001 said: star a message. It's also more versatile because you can star/unstar (upvote/unupvote) a message an unlimited number of times; there's no time lock on how long or edit lock on when you can star/unstar. — TylerH 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Dietrich Ayala
Hm, I don't see answers to these questions in that list at tags/api/topusers. Can you clarify where you are seeing these questions answered there, maybe with a more specific link? — Dietrich Ayala 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by TylerH
Can you clarify what you mean by "If you go to SOCVR, it would be so much easier (IMHO) to see what each post is referring to"? As Makyne has mentioned already, chat replies using the reply function already link comments via highlighting on hover, and anchor linking on click of the associated arrow at the beginning of a reply message. — TylerH 2 mins ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tom
@DavyM I guess you missed the irony in my post :P. We are on the same site here. Calling downvotes malicious (or more often "toxic") is just a default statement during a rant, that's why I used that in my comment. — Tom 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
Percent unanswered is there.... as are the top 30 users for Q and A — rene 23 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
I actually really like this idea. — Tiny Giant 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Braiam
"Meta has always been just a tiny fraction of the entire community, and it was never representative of the wider userbase for SO and the network sites" incidentally, meta is the most representative group of the main contributors to the site. If you compare the group of users by answer count vs participation in meta. — Braiam 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by SecretAgentMan
"That's not how I want to be treated by newcomers." (+1) — SecretAgentMan 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by TylerH
It's unclear what you're asking? What policy exactly are you referring to? The policy of employees being able to respond to specific mentions of @stackoverflow on a public platform as representatives of their company? What clarification is it you're wanting? — TylerH 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
stock overflow meta ... a subconscious typo? — rene just now
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
Wait, how isn't this clear @TylerH, in the wake of what we've had happen with Twitter and how it's had a measurable impact on the network in the last, what, eight or nine months? I'm looking to know what the policy is for official action taken as a result of social media feedback. If someone in an official capacity is making a decision based on something they saw on social media, I'd like to know when this is triggered, and when it'll have an impact on the site, and when we should reasonably expect it to occur. — Makoto 47 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Andrew Morton
@TylerH If there are, say, three or four conversations going on at the same time, why have them presented in a linear fashion? — Andrew Morton 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
@gnat: Social media by itself isn't bad. The major consequence of social media has rocked us to our core - starting with some Medium post about how trolls have taken over Stack Overflow, next with the Welcoming initiative, down to changing features wholesale overnight while completely ignoring valid community feedback on how to improve it BEFORE it had got that bad, to stupid stuff like this edit. I need consistency with how the company decides to override the will of a community based on some social media post so I can at least have that to shout at. — Makoto 29 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
@gnat: Furthermore...guess what? We were teased a policy would be circulated internally, at least. Has it made the rounds? Who knows?Makoto 59 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by TylerH
@Makoto I am pretty sure I can tell from this and from comments by you on Meta that you're very upset that employees have responded quickly to a few specific Tweets mentioning some issue on SO and tagging stackoverflow, and in some cases have effected (sometimes significant) changes to the site based on those Tweet (conversation)s. What's unclear is what you're asking here. You seem to be insinuating that there is or was some policy wherein the company or an employee has to consult with the Meta community before they can engage with someone on a public (external) platform. — TylerH 8 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
You could go over some of the SEDE questions on MSE that are about tags. — rene 33 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
@TylerH: No, they don't; it's cool if they override the community. It'd just be useful to know in what situations overriding the community is the overarching choice for them based on some social media feedback. — Makoto 43 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by TylerH
@Makoto But there's never been such a policy or even a gentleman's agreement, AFAIK. Your comment here makes it a little more clear what your asking, though I'm not sure if it's likely the company will or even should bother to explain their own public communications policy here, at least in the context as you've framed it. — TylerH 51 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
The app isn't supported - I'd strongly encourage you to use the responsive mobile site instead. — Makoto 2 mins ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@TylerH I recognize that's shocking to you; but cleaning up a post when cleaning up parts of it has been standard fare for moderators since time immemorial. We just never did it for meta because we really didn't moderate meta. — George Stocker ♦ 2 mins ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Claire
@Makoto I didn’t realize it wasn’t supported. That’s a shame, I think it’s pretty great. Who built it initially? — Claire 23 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by TylerH
@Makoto That's what's unclear. How are they "overriding" the community? What makes you imply that they are even checking what the community thinks? In what way does the Meta community have "rights" that are not being respected here? Why can't they just engage with someone on a platform and then make a change to their product based on that feedback? — TylerH 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
Now if they don't bother explaining why they do this, they run the very real risk of having people upset about decisions made on Twitter engaging on Twitter about those decisions. I firmly believe that this is the Wrong Choice™ for both parties, since people will get blocked on Twitter and nothing good will come of this. I mean hey, I'm genuinely trying to not be a jerk here. I just want consistency. And if I'm told there is no consistency, then I can at least be assured of the consistency of chaos. — Makoto 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
And again @TylerH - I'm going to be blunt and say no, I'm not giving examples. It's happened more than enough times to not warrant answers, if you've been following along at home. If you haven't, you're probably not the intended audience of this Meta post. — Makoto 19 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
@TylerH: Supposing that someone has an issue with an edit they made. Ideally a Stack Exchange community should be able to defend and justify why the edit would be rejected under normal circumstances. Did the person who made the edit know that Meta existed, or did they feel comfortable coming here? Could we not have had a discussion about it? (Meta is fairly civil in this context.) By not directing someone who has a support issue to Meta, a workflow is established in which people believe it's okay to ping SE employees to do this kind of thing on their behalf. — Makoto 57 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by TylerH
@Makoto I know you have avoided mentioning specifics here, but I think you kind of need to specify the examples you're talking about if you're going to so heavily imply that there's been some issue. — TylerH 2 mins ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
It was Stack Overflow who built and maintained it, but priorities shifted (likely after the release of the formal Stack Overflow app), and mobile web was mostly baked in. — Makoto 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Victor
thanks George Stocker — Victor 14 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Travis J
Clearly the meta police disliked your question. They are too busy running around looking for crap. "Curators"... often they fail at content creation, and it is no small relation that content creation from experts is an issue we face right now. Don't let them dissuade you from still working on solving problems like this. Just because there isn't a quick fix to use a default method to solve some basic problem doesn't mean the question isn't worth retaining. Unfortunately, such people have chased out the rational experts from many of these arenas and we are left with this current environment. — Travis J 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tom
One little thing: although the empty lines may exist in your original code, it is useful to avoid them here, if they aren't necessary. As you can see, the size of the code block in your question is limited, thus these empty lines make it harder to read your code, due to the needed scrolling — Tom 9 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Claire
@Makoto so why was the SO app scrapped? — Claire 46 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by mason
@GeorgeStocker Since when have mods deleted on topic, civil comments in the middle of a conversation? That has never been the modus operandi as far as I'm aware. — mason 18 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Soonts
@TravisJ Thanks for encouragement, but that’s not even my question. It’s a question from a user registered on SO today. I just answered it. The question was close voted. One of the downvoting web developers even came to comment to both answers, telling us the question is against the rules, and we made a mistake answering it. I can’t see deleted comments but they were there. Yes, I am dissuaded. — Soonts 39 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Davy M
@Rene Is your localhost running? Well, you should go catch it!Davy M 26 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@mason I dispute that it was 'in the middle of a conversation' given that they were deleted 5 days later after the conversation happened. As far as deleting comments, you may never have encountered it on the main site; but we clean up comments all the time. You've probably never encountered it on meta because we neglected to moderate meta before now. — George Stocker ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
We could give this welcoming thing a new dimension and pay them a house visit (without a giant-S) ? Hello, we're here to look at your localhostrene 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
This is a good answer, thanks @makoto. — George Stocker ♦ 5 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by bmm6o
@Makoto I understand that it can be frustrating, maintaining a community is hard work. Since you were involved with the post in question and took it as a personal affront, maybe you are too close to answer objectively, but what I'm getting at is: given that this question came in, do we really think the way it was handled was optimal and represents this community in the best light? Yes, people are tired and maybe this is the result. Does that mean we can't strive for more? — bmm6o 20 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
I'm not 100% sure about the inner workings of the app but IIRC it uses the Stack API for all its features. Retracting flags isn't supported on the API, there is an open FR for on MSE: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/288120/… so even if development would get restarted then the API would need an update as well. — rene 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
@bmm6o: The OP wasn't called outside of their name, belittled, attacked and no comment on that thread directly went out of their way to exclude them. I attempted to engage, knowing full well that questions like this would be closed until they were edited into shape. I honestly feel like I bent over backwards and am still made out to be a villain. — Makoto 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by mason
Meta hasn't been neglected - it was being moderated properly. Personal attacks were being removed. You're expanding your moderation of comments despite the -160 score of this question. Why? You're clearly doing the opposite of what the community wanted. — mason 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by EJoshuaS
This seems like more of a rant than an actual question or suggestion. — EJoshuaS 29 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Modus Tollens
@bmm6o What I don't get is: what was wrong with the comments on that post? It was handled very well for being a rant! I completely agree with Makoto. Commenting on meta feels like walking on eggshells lately. People were very civil in those comments, how were those comments unfriendly? What were they supposed to look like? — Modus Tollens 41 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
@bmm6o sure, we can strive for more. But how much more do you want? It was handled better then many other posts. It got an answer, helpful comments (at least by the standards of one mod) and got closed and down voted to signal to other (meta) visitors: this post isn't that useful to look at. The full Q/A model in all its glory. There is only one thing missing. An OP that says: Thanks, that was helpful, if not in comments, then in an accept vote. It needs two to tango. — rene 37 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
@rene huh.....? — Yvette Colomb ♦ 49 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by bmm6o
You're right, it did get an answer. Is that an important distinction for you? Would you VTC only if an answer has been posted? — bmm6o 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Travis J
@Soonts - I meant this question (which was yours). I understood the situation of the one you answered. — Travis J 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by EJoshuaS
Do you want people to have to supply detailed proof in order to be allowed to upvote your questions, too? — EJoshuaS 55 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by mason
Great answer. I'll add that those pointed questions that arise from attempting an implementation usually come to Stack Overflow in the form of a [MCVE]. — mason 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by JackArbiter
I made a meta post years ago with a simple common suggestion that's at +44 but the first comment and downvote came 10 seconds after I posted - a snide comment (that showed my post hadn't even been read, just the title), followed soon by another, both from high-rep users. So it started at -5 about 5 minutes after the post. I for one am glad the employees have the control. Meta is for burninating godaddy tags and being derisive towards casual visitors. — JackArbiter 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
Ah - I'll change the cardinality. — Makoto 37 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Soonts
You can’t replace desktop compositor on Windows a-la Compiz. On Windows, you have to live with whatever’s offered by dwm.exe, and by Windows graphics APIs. And it offers very limited set of ways to process video from the desktop, even counting hacks like dll injection I’ve proposed to OP (BTW the approach was also used by OBS studio on Win7). — Soonts 42 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Soonts
I’m not asking anything. My only mistake was writing an answer. Sorry for trying to help a newly registered SO user, won’t happen again. — Soonts 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
@Tom: :%s/start/end/gMakoto 32 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tom
@Soonts "I’m not asking anything. My only mistake was writing an answer. Sorry for trying to help a newly registered SO user, won’t happen again." Great way to start/end a discussion. — Tom 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
Yeah @Soonts; my brain was on autopilot since it's usually the OP in this context asking about why their question was closed. I've corrected that. — Makoto 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Soonts
@Tom See edit history for this answer. — Soonts 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tom
@Makoto I'll use both. — Tom 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tom
@Soonts I saw the original answer. That doesn't change the fact that Makoto didn't said that your answer was unhelpful, he didn't wrote that you shouldn't help a new user and he didn't wrote that you should stop doing that. So, such comments don't add anything helpful here. — Tom 1 min ago
 
9:01 PM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by TylerH
@AndrewMorton Also, regarding Joel mentioning the stupidity of chat, the earliest reference I can find to that was my comment on March 26th, 2015: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/41570?m=22323852#22323852. So I would probably work through podcasts from that date back to find where Joel mentioned it. — TylerH 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by peterh
The close reason is false, the problem can be easily reproduced: by asking a question keeping the Tumbleweed criteria, you won't get the badge. It is because this badge is removed. I vote to "leave open" (might be closed as dupe). — peterh 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Davy M
I believe this feature request is not useful because it's based on the premise that this question requires domain knowledge to tell if it's too broad, and that the people voting to close are doing so without that knowledge. It's already true that people are advised to skip if they don't know, so people who vote to close are asserting that they have enough knowledge about the subject to judge the vote they're casting. You state that there is an issue, and claim that there are many examples, but you only provide one example, and that example isn't very convincing. — Davy M 18 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by TylerH
@GeorgeStocker That doesn't address what my shock is. My shock is that you're trying to predict the future usefulness of a comment at some arbitrary point in the future and apply that future determination now. If it's not clear to you why that's problematic, then I implore you to return to ignoring Meta moderation immediately to avoid having that kind of improper moderation happen. It's not an issue to clean up posts or comment threads. It is an issue to delete a comment because you think it might not be useful 30 days from now. — TylerH 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Soonts
@Makoto OK I fixed, too. Could you please respond to my second comment? — Soonts 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Davy M
I say it's not convincing because you assert your experience as to why the question is not broad, but you don't provide objective reasons as to why apart from your 20 years. You're claiming that the question is not too broad based on your own experience, and 5 people claimed it is too broad based on their experience. 1 versus 5, even if you try to claim they can't know it because they're web developers. Your follow up question, Closed as too broad, isn't making any claims about what people do and don't know, and is therefore much more useful. — Davy M 25 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makyen
@Makoto It appears clear the person who made the edit doesn't know how Stack Exchange is designed for them to initiate resolution to a situation where they feel there's a problem. That person has almost no interaction with Meta (no non-deleted questions, answers, comments, helpful flags, edits, votes, etc.; although they have at least visited Meta once, for the annual survey), and no helpful flags on SO main. They have also never taken the tour (not that the tour would have helped for this situation). It appears they went with attracting attention the way they already knew: Social Media. — Makyen 27 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by TylerH
@Makoto All the questions in your comment are reasonable and I would like to see them be asked in a Meta question/discussed on Meta. My point is your question above doesn't say any of the things your comments have said. Your question is really vague and assuming/asking a bunch of things that rely on knowledge that you're thus far refusing to include in the question. — TylerH 51 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
@Makyen: Probably not, but I don't want to say that's their fault. It seems more like that's something we'd want CMs directing them to. Or maybe not. Depends on what the standing policy and recommendations would be, in light of a few things that have happened here... — Makoto 42 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Davy M
(By the way, the main site question looks way better after your edit, nicely done) — Davy M 48 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
@bmm6o I'm the most evil of all close voters, so no. Close vote first, talk later is my motto. YMMV — rene 2 mins ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by BSMP
@Makoto I actually meant to change "insulting" to "frustrating", so that was a mistake I'll fix in a moment. But I'm not suggesting that you were obligated to edit it at all, much less that anyone exists to do so. — BSMP 16 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Soonts
@DavyM Would you like to see more examples? stackoverflow.com/q/57064879/126995 stackoverflow.com/q/57062704/126995 stackoverflow.com/q/56843086/126995 Can’t give more because SO only has a link “Deleted Recent Answers”, it doesn’t have a link to “all deleted answers” — Soonts 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by TylerH
Funnily enough, Joel himself mentions something I and others have mentioned several times about the ask question wizard; "put the title at the bottom, after the question" at about 15:50 here stackoverflow.blog/2015/03/25/… (not relevant to this thread, but I'm going through trying to find where Joel mentioned chat and I found that gem. A good example of a good idea from the CEO that he had the opportunity to push and ...never did, even after the community asked for it. — TylerH 2 mins ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by brasofilo
I've seen Shog make magical edits, bringing badly written stuff into very decent shape. Always had those in mind when facing poorly received posts. Sorry, George, but this is the opposite of what I thought good edits were. — brasofilo 59 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@brasofile can you expound on why? — George Stocker ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makyen
@Makoto I didn't intend to blame the user who edited. It's something where the Stack Exchange design has failed to educate the user as to the "normal" method of resolving such issues. SE should look into making it more obvious to users how resolution of such issues is intended to be accomplished. — Makyen 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makyen
IMO, the person responding to the tweet should've taken the opportunity to educate the user as to the normal method of initiating resolution. An SE employee, by extension SE the company, choosing to A) immediately and effectively respond to such social media posts, and B) not educating the user, at the time, how the system is designed to work, implicitly trains that person, and anyone that sees the post, that the way to get an effective response from SE is to use social media. That isn't inherently good nor bad. SE just needs to choose if they want that and it's significant consequences. — Makyen 20 secs ago
 
9:41 PM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
Yep @Makyen - you're preaching to the choir. I would want to know if that's covered in some kind of policy document... — Makoto 52 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Soonts
@DavyM Especially the first one, stackoverflow.com/q/57064879/126995 Why that one was too broad? It’s very well-formulated question, it has very simple and elegant solution, see my answer there. In that case even the tag filter I’ve proposed here on meta wouldn’t help, the people who closevoted are C++ developers just like me. — Soonts 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Davy M
@Soonts I would actually disagree with that too-broad closure because I disagree with the community consensus that algorithm-based questions must include at least an attempt at solving it. I get the community doesn't want to encourage "code for me" type questions, but questions about algorithms are explicitly on topic, much like questions that give a specific start and end point. But that's not a domain knowledge issue, it's a community consensus issue. — Davy M 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. — Yvette Colomb ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by peterh
@ModusTollens I explained in the footnote at the bottom. — peterh 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Modus Tollens
Would you mind explaining how the community was hostile on the meta question that is the topic of this question? — Modus Tollens 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Soonts
@DavyM I agree that I might be wrong about which issue it is, and I’m not exactly sure how to solve it either. But I just observe the issue: good questions are closed, good answers to them are lost. Generally speaking, community consensus can probably be fixed by adjusting how the site works (e.g. require more than 5 votes to close as “to broad” as opposed to other reasons), and/or by adjusting the policies. My main motivation when I asked this question here on meta is bring the attention to the issue. — Soonts 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Modus Tollens
You made a statement, but didn't explain it. Are you talking about this question? The topic is another question. — Modus Tollens 2 mins ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
But that first stat is biased for older posts as those had much more time to gather votes. A post from 2009 might have gotten an upvote today. That first stat is not useful to draw conclusion specially not the one you try to spin there. — rene 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by peterh
@ModusTollens I am not talking about this question. I answered this question (on the top). — peterh 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by peterh
@rene You are right! This is what I like in you. Even if we are mostly on opposing view, your critics are correct. I am making a better stat, be back in around 10 min. — peterh 1 min ago
 
10:19 PM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by peterh
@rene I fixed the stat. Already it counts only the (well-)estimated score after 30 days. — peterh 1 min ago
 
10:39 PM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
Your links go to the same place, by the way. — Makoto 12 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by David C. Rankin
That I can fix... -- done. Thank you. — David C. Rankin 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Makoto
Maybe it's the flavor of question posed. The difference between the first and the second one is that the first question has a concrete problem defined, with (some) demonstrated effort. The second one has a concrete problem defined with no demonstrated effort. — Makoto 40 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by peterh
I find it a very nice initiative! Question ban should be lifted if the Q-banned user fixes the questions of others. — peterh 6 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by David C. Rankin
Yes, that was there but not entirely the point of this question. The MCVE standard is workable. The question here is more "All things being equal -- what utilities_abc are valid to ask about and what utilities_xyz are not?" I was trying not to focus on other aspect and just look at the utility -- there are many, many instances where that is what it falls down to and more guidance there, a list, or something to point to and say ON or OFF topic to would be greatly helpful. — David C. Rankin 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by peterh
I think the lack of research is not a big problem: 1) there problems which are practically impossible to research 2) it causes users to inject fake "research" into their questions, hugely reducing the information density. | About "too broad" questions, my opinion is this. — peterh 1 min ago
 
11:27 PM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by bmm6o
@mason Because there's been a lot of discussion already about the way newcomers are treated here, as I'm sure you know. I was never entirely convinced that there was a problem because the instances that you could point to seemed like definite outliers and real exceptions. Then yesterday, I step in to try to help someone out, and there's this interaction that 1) goes really poorly very quickly and 2) gets nuked so nobody but the newby sees it. My house is dirtier than I thought. — bmm6o 56 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by bmm6o
And I don't even know how dirty it is since it can so quickly be swept away. — bmm6o 2 mins ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by bmm6o
@fbueckert You're definitely right - nobody wants to be subjected to a rant. Maybe I'm just taking it way less personally than everyone else? When you read it, can't you sense the author's frustration? I think the attitude of "you have to change your tone before we'll help you" leads to a downward spiral. — bmm6o 1 min ago
 
11:55 PM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by bmm6o
@AndrewT It's true, I guess I visit MSO infrequently enough that I don't see many like this - it was fortuitous that I came in yesterday and was able to write an answer before it was deleted. Maybe I'm naive, and the question wasn't made in good faith, I should have waited for the polite re-write, and my effort was wasted. Just trying to be the change I wish to see in the world. — bmm6o 14 secs ago
 
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