last day (27 days later) » 

3:12 PM
-106
Q: Should the mod team tighten up moderation on Meta comments?

Madara UchihaIt is the opinion of the moderation team that this change is overdue. If you have compelling arguments against it, please post an answer below. We want this to happen. This proposal comes in the wake of the last few days/weeks, most recently culminating in quite a few posts, and a discussion aro...

 
Comments are still useful when clarification about specific points of a post is required. It's just not really suitable for extended discussion.
 
I could support this proposal if it were possible to migrate comments to chat more than once. Because it isn't, many later comments will end up being deleted (as discussed earlier), which I don't like. It would be helpful if the company could support that.
 
To be transparent in my position on this: I’ve said this before; but at this point nothing said would change whether or not we should moderate meta. We’ve had a 10 year experiment with not moderating meta. We know the status quo has put us in a bad place. So while the question may be “delete vs move to chat”, keeping it like it is now isn’t viable. Which the only downside to “proposing” a change is the false sense that the status quo is an acceptable solution. It is not.
 
user4639281
I have a lot of things that I would like to say, but none of them really qualify as an answer to this question, nor do they qualify as a request for clarification, and I don't want to make another meta question with my thoughts about this question, so I guess I'll just keep it to myself. Comment moderation FTW!
 
3:12 PM
I'll try one more time @GeorgeStocker. Would employees have a way in the current system to actually flag comments or posts or whatever else needed to be flagged without it suddenly being binding and seen as a unilateral moderation action? I'm trying to tease out that this may be the underlying issue, failing any other fallback mechanism to alert community moderators of a potential issue. It'd make sense in my mind if an employee felt some kind of way about moderating a community they're not familiar with, but if they have no way of alerting the actual mods, that'd only make it worse.
 
@Makato Not to wholly reject the premise of your question; but when I look at the moderator dashboard for meta; the employee rates for comment deletion are so low that there's not even a thought that they are actively moderating comments. Literally across the four employees that have moderated posts on meta they've all together deleted a grand total of 10 comments in the past 30 days. By contrast moderators have deleted ~1350 or so in the past 30 days.
 
@Makoto It's a good concern. In general, staff will do the same thing we do. Don't handle things (unless it's really obvious) that would cause a conflict of interest. Don't delete comments that disagree with your opinion, no matter how snarky they are, for example. While there is no way for a moderator/staff to flag a comment to bring it to moderator attention, in those cases we have the blue room in which moderators are almost always active, and can request aid from one another. Staff members are aware of this, too.
 
One clarification to what @MadaraUchiha said: If you're being non-constructive to someone (whether they're a moderator, employee, or community member), then a moderator may choose to delete the non-constructive comments; however, we do not generally act on comments on our own posts; for appearances sake.
 
Is there any strategy for cleaning up comments on existing posts (which might require writing answers or chat migrations)? Or does that fall into "we'll worry about that later"?
 
@ryanyuyu Most of the damage caused by non-constructive comment threads happens around the time the comments are posted, so I don't feel it would be of much use to go around digging up old threads for the sake of a belated cleanup.
 
3:12 PM
We will clean up as we come to them; but we aren’t going to actively search out posts to clean up.
 
Could you separate your proposed solution out of the question and into an answer? I believe discussion is useful and I want to upvote it as such, but I don't believe that your solution is as useful and I don't want a vote to this post to be misunderstood as support for your proposal, especially the first bullet point.
 
Moderator note: yes, we are moderating the comments here, removing non-constructive and redundant comments. That includes comments asking if we are removing comments. If your comment was removed, it was either no longer needed, could be expressed by voting or answering instead, was addressing a different topic altogether or was not constructive.
 
@MadaraUchiha Eh, rephrasing the title in the question that way is misleading when it's the intent of the team to implement this by default unless there is some massive backlash/disagreement from the community. Phrasing it as 'the mod team intends to do this' is much more true to intentions IMO. Unless you've changed your mind on that?
 
Clarification request: How will consensus / arguments regarding for or against this proposal be assessed? Are votes taken into account or is this strictly a strength of the argument type of deal=?
 
3:12 PM
@Magisch Let me direct you to my comment on Tyler's same question: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/387883/…
 
@MadaraUchiha I think it may have been better to just do this rather then to put it up here. Regardless of what y'all end up with, there will be weeks of accusations and angry heartfelt expressions either way. As tim alluded in a comment under the answer you linked, there's no current good and commonly agreeable way to determine consensus available right now. It's clear you all want this, and it's clear that the status quo isn't an option (from several direct quotes), so what exactly are we deciding or arguing here?
 
@MartijnPieters "If your comment was removed, it [...] could be expressed by voting or answering instead" - voting I can understand, but "your comment could be an answer" could in theory be applied to almost everything. Could you clarify how this rule should be understood?
 
@l4mpi: Simple: if your comment goes beyond helping to improve the post you are commenting on, consider if you are really just voting on the answer (agreeing or disagreeing with the points made), or if a separate discussion (== question on Meta) is needed, if the comments can be taken to chat, or if you are really writing a new answer to the question (as in: you disagree strongly enough with an answer that writing a countering answer is warranted). Comments are not there to try to change the POV of the answerer, that's not productive.
 
This does not read as a proposal for a change that is up for debate. It reads as a declaration of intent. You have the power to enforce changes that you see fit. Please, don't phrase them like "Should the mod team tighten up moderation on Meta comments?" if you already state: "It is the opinion of the moderation team that this change is overdue. ... We want this to happen." If you want to, then just do it.
 
@k0pernikus: that sounds like an answer to the post. Note that this is a declaration of intent, but we want to hear opinions from all sides on the matter so we can adjust the new policy as needed. Just because we are making changes doesn't mean we do so without any consultation at all.
 
3:12 PM
Has changing the format of comments on Meta been considered? A multi-threaded format like Reddit has could be better. I find chat even harder to follow than comments.
 
@AndrewMorton My aim is to try to reach some sort of halfway solution without requesting dev time, because requesting for dev time is unlikely to produce real results in the near future. In general, I agree that some sort of format change is likely a good idea.
 
@TinyGiant Well, if they're not a request for clarification, but they are part of the discussion on this topic, then that's the place for an answer here. It is tagged discussion after all...
 
I read this as Should the mod team lighten up, and I was thinking, "Hell yes. Why is this getting so many downvotes?" Then I re-read the question and just sighed.
 
Perhaps it would be advantageous to create a chat room for this discussion?
 
If only users could create chatrooms for comments earlier than the auto-proposal (that should be a relatively trivial change for employees to make in the code base), then perhaps we could better apply the advice the mods are giving (e.g. extended discussion on the subject? Just start out in chat). As it stands now, we have to have an extended discussion before we have the opportunity to auto-link/copy the discussion to chat. And that also has the problem of leaving all the existing comments as comments in addition to creating a chatroom.
 
3:12 PM
@TylerH actually they can sort of - or at least you can create a normal room and link it to the comments. I can create it but I won't be home all day today so it would likely not be great for me to be the RO: see Catija's comment here
 
user4639281
@Cullub your comment was not a request for clarification and instead should have been a new meta question asking about my comment. Get with the program, comments are only to be used for requests for clarification. Oh wait... Crap...
 
3:24 PM
Meta is effectively the UN without its charter members. It's community theater. We no longer influence policy or features. Even if we were to make the case that comments are an important part of discussion on meta, meta discussions no longer matter.
 
user4639281
3:45 PM
This is the sadest day of Meta, and possibly of Stack Overflow in general. RIP: The SO Community.
 
4:06 PM
@TinyGiant That's a bit too dramatic, I think.
(Especially considering the question was asked yesterday 😛)
The position and role of meta... is not what it used to. I myself don't exactly know what it is yet, but we've all observed that it has shifted noticeably. However, I personally feel, that we're all going a bit overboard with the rants and the snark and the unconstructiveness. I am not alone in feeling that, I have been debating whether to propose this or not for weeks before I actually did, and I consulted with most of the other active moderators on the team before I decided to post it.
If we want any hope of meta returning to being more than a > /dev/null anytime soon, we need to get a hold of how we do this whole "interaction" thing.
I am not really proposing anything new in terms of policy here. These are all things that were discussed and agreed on. The proposal is that moderating meta should not be neglected by our friendly neighborhood moderators any longer.
 
user4639281
@MadaraUchiha It's my opinion, you can choose to ignore it if you like, or even delete it, that is completely within your power.
 
I've never interacted with anyone or anything on meta before but have followed several questions throughout. My only problem with a heavier emphasis on chat becoming more used is that I -at least- don't see a way to navigate to chat for a question, from the question - aside from links when comments are moved. Am I missing it, or is linking the only way?
 
@zbee You aren't missing it. The link in the comments is automatic, but anyone can also edit the link into the question to make it more prominent.
 
@MadaraUchiha are there policy reasons that prevent anyone from setting up an archiving bot for meta comments?
I'm thinking one of us could do that independantly of the discussion
 
@Magisch None that I can think of.
@TimPost care to weigh in on that? ^
 
user4639281
4:19 PM
@MadaraUchiha You're saying that you're not changing anything while you are literally changing the very core of meta operation. 10 years of using the comment system for discussion is being thrown out the window. That you can't see this makes the day (last 24 hours is what I'm referring to) sadder.
 
@MadaraUchiha Can you clear that with the relevant authorities for me? I'm interested in setting one up
 
@TinyGiant We're still going to use comments for discussion.
That has not changed.
 
user4639281
That seems to be directly contrary to your post and the comments by Martijn
 
user4639281
And the rampant comment deletion
 
user4639281
And basically all of your behavior so far.
 
4:21 PM
@MadaraUchiha Is there any way to start a chat aside from moving chat to discussion? If not, then I imagine that does make it okay to use, but it is still more difficult to get to, in my opinion - are there any thoughts on addressing that?
 
user4639281
You're saying that you're not doing something, while doing that very thing.
 
@zbee Sure, any user with over a certain amount of reputation can create chatrooms.
@TinyGiant We want to keep things on-topic.
 
@TinyGiant There are still several answers even just on this question that have detailed discussion in comments
 
Because the signal:noise ratio on meta today, especially on controversial posts, is not great (understatement of the year)
 
user4639281
Ok, so lets get rid of all of the signal with all of the noise and call it a day, right?
 
user4639281
4:22 PM
Just like you did with the comments under the OP.
 
@TinyGiant No...
Like I mentioned in my post, I identify two kinds of "noise"
 
user4639281
That's exactly what your deletion and moving to chat does.
 
The ranty/non-constructive kind, that one is deleted, not moved to chat.
 
user4639281
Just delete it all and wash your hands.
 
Can we agree on that?
That rants and "oh woe is me" kinds of comments are not helping anything and anyone?
3
Putting aside the topic of extended discussion and chat for a moment.
Or do you think those should definitely stay too?
 
4:28 PM
@MadaraUchiha So if chatrooms can be created aside from moving comments to chat, which automatically links to them, is there anything that would provide a link from the question to the chatroom (unless marked as off-topic,unrelated or something of the like of course)? I just feel that's a missing part of chat that would make it more useful, as well as apparent
 
@zbee Every chat room has a valid, unique URL.
You can take that URL and post it anywhere, in a comment, in a question, in your blog, whatever.
If you want, there's nothing that's preventing you from creating a room and posting a link to it on a comment to a question, or editing one of your questions to add the link there.
 
Fair enough, that just seems like a prominent disconnect. Do you disagree with that, you think linking is appropriate for connecting chatrooms to questions?
 
user4639281
@MadaraUchiha I think you should make a meta question asking how the community would like comments on meta to be moderated instead of just telling us that you're going to completely change how comments on meta are moderated, then walk that back and make it like you didn't say what you originally said. But then, the community's opinion doesn't matter anymore as we've been repeatedly told so according to the new direction of the site you should do exactly what you did. Again, saddening.
 
@JL2210 worth noting that any comment that didn't make it through the migration, was already deleted at the time of the migration.
And yes, that includes your chicken has flown comment.
@TinyGiant If I had wanted to do that, I wouldn't be here, debating this with you.
 
@MadaraUchiha OK.
 
4:32 PM
I'd talk to my fellow mods in our private room that no one can challenge, and made the decision there in secret.
But that is not what I did, despite knowing that I'm likely to hit -100 or more on meta.
 
user4639281
It sure seems like that's exactly what you did.
 
@MadaraUchiha You're already on -118
 
Because I do value the opinion of our most experienced users, and I don't appreciate those same users making assumptions on my motives.
 
@TinyGiant If he did that, why would he open a meta question?
 
So please, do cut the "you're not listening to us" crap. We are.
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user4639281
4:34 PM
@Magisch To explain the change in moderation. I thought that was obvious.
 
Just start doing it, it's not like we have official review. That would have been the MO. And how to interpret the comment policy is in the mod remit, so it's not even like we could really have complained.
 
user4639281
@MadaraUchiha I'm just explaining how it appears to me, thanks for calling my feedback "crap"
 
(Not that that would have stopped us from doing so)
 
@TinyGiant And I'm here talking to you, and I'm telling you that's not how it is.
And I'd like to say again, that if I had wanted to do what you're claiming I wanted to have done, I would not have posted anything on meta.
I would have just started moderating more strictly, and that's that.
I don't need to remind you that I'm not getting paid by the company, and their business goals don't particularly align with my interests, either. My obligation is to the community first, and this is what that meta post is. I am speaking what I think is the best course of action for meta, because otherwise we can effectively all pack and go home.
4
If you want to keep meta as an echo chamber that nobody with power looks at, this current direction is the one we ought to keep heading to.
4
And that's not just my opinion here.
🤷
@Magisch What does your idea with archiving meta comments entail?
Do you have a plan of action (even a vague one?)
 
@MadaraUchiha 1) Open a chatroom
2) have a bot post a direct inline link to every meta comment that gets posted on the site via the feed
 
4:40 PM
@JGreenwell That's not at all the same thing.
 
This achieves several things:
1) It archives every comment posted on meta permanently.
2) It makes them searchable by post and by author through chat's inherent search
3) It allows through that for anyone to see which comments were deleted on any post.
2
A bot with this exact functionality (but also regex detection patterns and chattiness ratings and feedback) exists already at interpersonal stack exchange, and it posts to this room: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/63296/the-closet
I was going to ask / look for the source code of that bot and either get someone to adapt/host it or do it myself.
 
@Magisch I don't think that there's going to be a policy problem, but more of a volume problem.
Did we reach the conclusion on how many comments meta gets approximately?
(Sorry, I missed the followup on our discussion)
 
Eh. The daily API quota is 10000, and I've pulled numbers on that via SEDE. Even with generous assumptions on unknowns, hardly any day has more then 600 individual comments.
 
Then I think there shouldn't be a problem.
 
The average # of undeleted comments on meta per day is somewhere in the 250-300 range for weekdays, and 100-150 for weekends
concentraitng mostly on the 14.00-16.00 window of the SE time of day
here is an average listing of comment per day of the last 90 days, here is an average of weekday distribution across the last 1800 days, and here is an all time average per weekday and time of day.
If my data is correct, there are scarcely 1 hour timeframes with more then 40 undeleted comments. Taking into account chat rate limits, and even assuming half of all comments get deleted (an extremely highball assumption, shog puts it at ~10% even on the main site), we're looking at less then 2 comments per minute. Certainly a volume that is possible to capture and inline via bot.
 
4:50 PM
@Magisch What do you plan to do with blatantly offensive/spammy comments that get posted and then nuked?
I don't rekon it would be a huge problem, but a chat room with lots of shite is going to get frowned upon.
 
@MadaraUchiha On IPS they are just left there because nobody but volunteers looks at that room anyways, but y'all got mod powers, so if you see something, nothing easier then just poofing it right then
I mean, charcoal HQ is also filled with offensive and spam titles and post bodies, including links to spammy websites and graphic material and imagery. Nobody really cares because its charcoal HQ and if you go there you kinda know what you sign up for
I don't reckon there's a lot of comment spam, what with meta being kinda obscure compared to main and comments needing 50 rep.
 
5:07 PM
@Magisch Are links to comments permanent, regardless of being deleted then?
 
The links aren't, but direct comment links get inlined, and that inlining is
take a look at chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/63296/the-closet , the comments are all there, even the ones who were deleted. Even after deletion, the direct link still shows on which post they were made
 
@Magisch That makes more sense, I thought you were just providing links with the bot, that is much more useful this way
 
@Magisch Alright, you have a (tentative) greenlight. We're still waiting on a staff's reply, but I have at least one other moderator willing to give this a shot and keep an eye out. Regular disclaimers about bots (you should stay close to make sure nothing funky is happening, it may be shut down by mods if it goes haywire or tries to take over the world, etc.) apply.
Is that OK with you?
 
fair
I'll work on getting the thing setup this weekend
and reach out to the author of the IPS comment bot to see if I can have part of its source
 
Sure thing, keep me posted? 😀 I'm usually lurking in chat.
 
 
1 hour later…
6:28 PM
Since I'm sure you don't hear it enough... I think this is a step in the right direction. While the community has certainly been unfairly portrayed in many, many cases; the rants are getting very old as well.
 
6:52 PM
The community really does seem to resent a lot of the changes that have been going on lately, which is why there are more rants, causing more fear of posting changes to meta, causing more rules changes, causing more resentment, causing more rants, etc. There appears to be a spiral, and the way out of a spiral is to recognize that it's happening, that it's not productive and that the owners of each step in the spiral need to be more cognizant of the factors leading to the spiral.
The answer isn't going to be you can't do rants anymore, or to rant more, or to ignore legitimate concerns about corporate changes or the community's needs.
The community needs to have high standards, and corporate needs to support that, lest SO's content-at-rest be useless for future searchers. Corporate needs to have high standards, and the community needs to support that, lest SO's reputation be hurt to the point that someone else rises up to eat its lunch.
It's definitely a hard balance to strike. Rants and fear aren't the path forward. Rules shouldn't be based on reactions to fear, but rather on a focus on what corporate expects from the community.
I guess what I'm saying is that while I think there shouldn't be rants on Meta, I think moderating them after the fact is just going to cause more damage - to extend the spiral rather than break out of it. The solution is to address the real concerns that give rise to them.
2
And since some of those concerns are themselves caused by reactions to the rants, the folks doing the ranting should realize that the things they want to pile onto have been said already instead of adding fuel to the existing rants. A little self control could hopefully make Meta seem less scary to SO employees who are trying to improve SO and/or nudge it slightly in new directions, making it easier for them to have a dialogue instead of posting "big change" content that gets downvoted like mad.
4
 
i mean, that's gonna happen on the blog for now on anyway, so that won't be a problem
To me, though, the deletion of comments that aren't abusive/unkind will do nothing more than prevent dialog, prevent discussion, prevent engagement. it will discourage people from participating. It isn't going to all of a sudden result in people posting answers/questions instead.
It's just going to result in a bunch of silenced opinions.
 
7:08 PM
When every opinion posted is some variant of "I am unhappy with [thing]," at what point is enough enough? You downvoted, all you're doing is adding a drop to a sea.
Of course, if no one acknowledges that the community is unhappy with [thing] for long enough, resentment grows.
What I'm saying is I think the resentment is high enough that most things are met with this kind of pile-on. Both sides need to de-escalate. Fewer reactive rulings from corporate, fewer rants from the community. Get back to a situation where you're willing to see each other as two parts of a greater whole rather than a
 
If there's been no response in years, why not restate it every now and then?
it's not our fault it hasn't been responded to.
 
The old saying, insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?
If there's been no response in years, make your own SO and solve the problems yourself, make a ton of money? If things are as bad as the community's reactions imply, it should be easy to bring back some kind of SO golden age somewhere else.
 
Why would you not try again, if every time you've tried previously resulted in a positive response?
 
@KevinB Is there some post about announcements going only to the blog now?
 
yea, somewhere
 
7:18 PM
-677
Q: We’re removing “Hot Meta Posts” from Stack Overflow's sidebar for now; moderators now fully control [featured]

Tim Post tl;dr: We're removing the "Hot Meta Posts" from Stack Overflow's sidebar while we work on looking at how Meta can better meet its goals. To ensure that moderators are able to bring important posts to the community, we'll be giving them exclusive access to the featured tag. "Featured on Meta" w...

> Employees will be posting updates on our blog, or sometimes coordinating with moderators to make use of a featured slot. But, it's going to be totally up to the moderators. In fact, I'm not even featuring this one, but a moderator can if they want to (wink, wink).
@GrumpyCrouton ^
 
Interesting. Because around the time of the Hot Network Questions stuff, I posted this question, regarding closing of questions on Meta which do not appear to be seeking input or discussion but are also posted by employees, my question was downvoted, and the highest upvoted answer is from a moderator who, in a comment, said that "the blog is not the right communication medium for that." (announcements)
 
The answer by another moderator is the same answer I have.
 
i mean... closing employee posts is kinda... obviously not going to accomplish anything.
not sure why you'd even try
 
Yes I know. But that's not the point
 
Basically If the landlord wants to use your apartment to stage a showing then that’s up to them.
@KevinB they have moderator powers, it’d be a pointless activity, purely for show.
 
7:23 PM
I'm not arguing the fact that closing employees posts is pointless and will literally do nothing.
 
Not sure if sharecropping or feudalism is a more appropriate term for the relationship the community site and the corporate company have.
 
Right. and your post was downvoted. do you know why it was downvoted?
I know why i would downvote it
 
@grumpycrouton my point is, “they who have the gold make the rules.” In this case, SO can post things really wherever they want. We do not own this land, we merely tend it.
 
I do know why it was downvoted, that wasn't my point of posting it here.
 
 
3 hours later…
10:18 PM
I've been looking stuff up on StackOverflow for ages, and never realized it had a chat! Kinda shows why i (and probably many other) don't really use to for long discussions instead of comments.
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