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4:52 AM
Well, that sort of sells meta short. It's also a support portal and bug tracking software... among other things.
 
 
1 hour later…
6:03 AM
@gnat So Sara's "in no uncertain terms" comment was... flat out misleading, it seems.
6
0.015% vs between 1 and 20%... Wow.
 
 
5 hours later…
11:33 AM
@forest Actually, it seems like that number is just hard to measure. If you read the comments it looks like someone found a way the 0.015% could've been calculated.
 
 
3 hours later…
2:07 PM
sorry for the late ping Shog, but to be fair... shouldn't that at least reduce the amount of "users" that have go as far as sending personal insults to the specific SE employee? I mean, you said that you received insults and threats. Did the Community User ever received anything?
I am saying this because I actually used that technique on a private UO server I happened to collaborate with many years ago... It doesn't magically fix everything, that's granted... but it does help , at least a bit.
 
2:37 PM
@Catija On that subject, I'm super excited/anxious to hear/read about efforts to migrate that work/process over to a discrete bug tracker. Any plans/ETA on that kind of thing?
 
3:07 PM
@TylerH There's a lot of complex thinking there. We need a better way to handle bugs and make them easier to track ... meta isn't great for this but if we push it somewhere else that's more purpose-built, it needs to be easy to find and search but that also allows for support. We need a way for people to submit bugs that we can easily triage and respond to...
The thing is, a non-zero number of bug reports get turned into support requests. :/ Our system is complex enough that not all of our features are obvious and it's not always clear how to use tools to get what you need.
 
@forest Also known as Therac-25 ... but for some reason I think you may already know of that incident, don't you forest? Not playing devil advocate there, but there are cases when "DON'T. DO. THAT." is the kindest answer one can give. Not to the user. To the world.
 
@Catija can we agree a large amount of systems exists and works well for things even more used and getting even more feedback than SO ?
 
It almost needs to be part of meta... but not part of meta. I'm not the best person to ask about it, though, since I'm not a developer and don't know much about best practices for tracking bugs... but I'm guessing Trello probably isn't the best choice. :P
 
@forest That said, I hope that we won't ever come to the situation you fear. That would be indeed pretty dangerous
 
I mean, curl (to relate to something) handle it with github issues, jira is a popular tool, there's plenty of others and linking them is a matter of webhooks usually
 
3:32 PM
@jpmc26 To be fair, I may be missreading the context given that the question isn't exactly in my field but... I don't see that as condescending. I see another problem there. As too often happens, he asked for A and someone forced a - not there - XY problem by answering a made up question - B.
It is difficult to see the whole picture since all the comments were deleted, but the only "condescending" I see there is that someone may purposely have misinterpreted the question because "user=female=noob"
So, at least to me, the comment weren't rude. The fact that someone posted that on a question that doesn't (at least IMHO) needed or asked for that MAY be. And I underline may - as I said, I am trying to understand Jon point but I lack the larger picture (yep, deleting the comments helped protecting the users, but if he was going to mention the comments in a blog post he should have kept an anonymized version of the chain somewhere)
 
3:47 PM
@Catija Sure, triaging (and fixing mis-triaged) reports is always a big issue. We Meta folks know something about that due to working with questions on Main ;-) I think a conspicuous link on the site, top bar, side bar, and/or footer would be enough as far as discoverability goes.
Implementation-wise, I'd love to see something like Mozilla's bugtracker
As far as the current marriage to Meta goes, personally I don't think there needs to be any relationship w/ Meta for bug reports, and probably not for feature-requests, either. Any post that is posted for such ought to be closeable with a unique reason "this was meant to be posted to the bug tracker".
 
@TylerH You'd think... and yet. :/ It has to be connected enough that migrations are possible, for example... and to keep in mind that there's 170+ sources for reports... :/
 
You can then either leave it up to the poster to add to the bug tracker, or have some automated queue to look at for employees/trusted users to mark the question as 'added to bugtracker' when they have done so
@Catija Sure, I'm thinking just MSE or MSO for starters, of course
 
Wouldn't the solution to that be a SE-wide pop-up when the "bug" tag is used on a meta site that suggests the user use the bug tracker instead of posting a question? Or a checkbox that also adds the question as a bug report in the tracker? Seems to me that there are some already implemented features that could be used to simplify things.
 
Just auto route anything with the [bug] tag to file 13
 
4:03 PM
Heh, well I should've seen that coming -- a bunch of programmers jumping on the opportunity to suggest technical implementations for something :-D
 
If we made bugs/feature requests off topic on SO meta and pushed that all to MSE, people would have to deal with earning/losing rep for their contributions
 
4:30 PM
Let them.
Did Megan's post sound to anyone else like a consultancy firm's sales pitch? Maybe I'm just jaded about the combination of enthusiasm and buzz-words. :P
Now I'm just a crotchety old man... hoarding the wayward baseballs and frisbees of the neighborhood kids. :/
 
4:49 PM
what post
 
Seemed fine to me, though a bit out of place
 
 
2 hours later…
7:02 PM
@canon seems fine and nice - I just don't believe it cause I've heard it before and also before that, then there was the time before that, and before that, also ..... error: overflow
 
yeah...
 
or put more clearly: I need action at this point
 
That .015%(is that right?) comment still bugs me. Before dismissing a small percentage of your users, I'd be very certain that their main-site impact is likewise proportional... because it's not: data.stackexchange.com/meta.stackoverflow/query/1082529/…
 
@canon see my comment just now on that meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/387680/…
 
@TylerH That timing, though. Thanks.
Hyperbole is just what we need when we're all frustrated. Sarcasm too, I guess. ;)
 
7:07 PM
Yeah :-/
Though I'm willing to give Sara the benefit of the doubt here, what with it being her first or almost first ever interaction on Meta
It's a tough standard to meet coming prepared to this rodeo for your first ride...
Maybe she does have numbers that show a .015% figure; or maybe she didn't expect that number to be so closely analyzed. At this point either is equally likely, given the vagueness of the qualifiers
 
Making policy before actually interacting. Bold.
I guess I tuned the site out for a bit. I totally missed that post about the figure. Or maybe I'm still subconsciously reliant on HOT META POSTS. >:(
 
@TylerH haha, that is horrible
 
Damn, now I just realized I have a missing word in my meta comment, and it's already been 6 minutes
 
@AndrasDeak The best part is, I'm sure our reception of her maiden post just confirmed her suspicion that we're some bloodthirsty horde.
 
@canon oh, I certainly think that .015% could be a correct number. Its just it has no impact on me without knowing the criteria that was used to define "community that is on Meta"....but I work in data so I tend to always look at numbers and go "and how did you determine that? what does it mean? is it significant?" & etc.
 
7:20 PM
@JGreenwell That's what I mean. If .015% is correct, what's their impact on the main-site versus the other 99.985%? Then it's a matter of defining impact...
 
@opa One could argue that our Feature Request system is kinda that already... But there's a fatal flaw in FRs that I've noticed over the years... FRs are about coming up with a solution. People (myself included) get so focused on that solution that we forget to talk about the problem we're trying to solve. From the PoV of someone trying to implement a change on the network, what we need to know is what the problems are - what friction are we causing - so that we can investigate solutions that will address that problem. — Catija ♦ Jul 26 at 13:40
I'm not sure that posting FRs is the right choice any more... they may focus on the wrong things.
@KevinB Some FRs are specific to SO, particularly when they relate to things like Teams, Jobs, Dev Story... etc.
 
@Catija posting FRs is actually kinda backwards. It'd be better to just point out problems
2
the nature of a large codebase with lots of interconnecting parts and stakeholders mean whatever someone can suggest from the outside is likely to run afoul of more then one non starter issue
which means that none of them get implemented which isn't a good look for the company
 
Yep.
 
so calling the tag feature request seems backwards
 
It's amusing to me to look at all of the FRs I've requested on MSE (and a couple on MSO) with the pov I have now... and seeing how naive I was.
 
7:32 PM
I like the idea of discussing pain points because that's more useful for the designers that try to solve them. Usually a lot of popular FRs point out several pain points at once with different solutions and priorities so it never gets anywhere
 
Yeah, I agree posting FRs is likely not a sustainable thing moving forward, at least not on Meta
I know some FRs/bugs I've reported have a snowballs chance in hell of being implemented due to costs/constraints, but I posted them anyway out of principle
and to avoid the issue of years down the road complaining about it and folks going "well how come you've never requested it"
 
It's also really difficult to status tag FRs if we solve the problem but not in the way it's requested... is it completed or declined?🤔
 
status-there-are-5-problems-here-2-we-lookin-at-1-is-untenable-to-fix-2-are-low-prio
 
Ha ha ha.
 
@Catija what's the atmosphere around the community managers right now? Is it one of grim resolve?
 
7:37 PM
It's actually probably easier to write a friction log because you're not on the hook for coming up with a solution... you just have to tell us the problems you're having.
 
FR would need to be more like user stories judging by that post ("As a FOO, I want BAR so that I can BAZ" - where BAR is just a high level overview & BAZ includes the problem description & impact itself).
but then it was also written by a PM and that's kinda how they think when it comes to making iterations (or at least its how I've been taught/think when doing PM stuff) so you have to consider that
 
I'd rather teams/jobs/dev etc be supported by other means, SO meta is for SO
4
 
granted....there is something to be said about putting it in a format that is familiar to the person/people picking which FR to focus on
 
@canon I don't think so... It's... mostly busy-ness and a little tiredness and some waiting to see what's next. There's a lot of different personalities, who handle situations differently. So even generalizing is difficult. I think there's some cautious optimism.
We've got a lot of irons in the fire (or at least I feel like I do) and it's easy for things to fall through the cracks. I mostly focus on the network but I keep an ear in to SO because so much of what happens on SO ends up impacting the network...
 
Tim is probably working the situation like a giant minecraft rube goldberg machine
with like 7d chess
 
7:46 PM
@KevinB I know right? The only time I was annoyed with Hot Meta Posts - at all - was when it was filled with Teams & Job issues (esp. the Career related ones)
 
@JGreenwell I'm not super familiar with working with PMs... but I really do like the change to focus on problems rather than solutions. I'm ... well... super meta-centric. I love meta and use it all the time, but I remember struggling to solve my own problems and then feeling bad when the thing I suggested wasn't possible. I was largely successful on meta because I spent so much time explaining the problem while I came up with solutions, though... so I was doing both.
 
it's more of a personal bias tbh, i hate teams/jobs/dev and every time i see it, it reminds me that it's there and i don't want it
 
Many people posting FRs don't remember to explain the problem they're trying to solve because of how focused they are on explaining their solution... so they can be sort of a dead-end unless we get them to explain... but I've run into so many cases of people saying "it's so obvious why it needs to change, why should I bother explaining!"...
@KevinB That, in itself, is kinda a reason to move it... not because it's off topic there but because it can act as a negative feedback loop for people who don't like it... for all that we love these products, the questions can seem like unsolicited adverts.
 
@Catija oh, I actually agree :) - I'm just trying to think of it in terms of "the high level stuff I actually turn into programming tasks when I have to deal with the higher design levels of a project" - which to me means "I have to deal with the PM stuff"
Higher level thinking is better for FR due to what everyone has already said here (esp. no idea of other projects and "under-the-hood" stuff). I was just mussing about a possible format for it that would be familiar to devs/engineers/etc..
 
It's easy enough for me to remove static links, but i can't necessarily hide questions, :p
 
7:51 PM
@KevinB I too don't care for teams/jobs stuff showing up in HMP or on my UI. I'm not interested in SO (probably ever) for that content. I currently avoid it via Stylus user styles and ViolentMonkey user scripts
 
so far i've been able to do most things with just adblock, but moving the question stats required more than that
 
@JGreenwell Meg has a link in her post to what a Friction Log looks like... did you check that out?
 
@Catija exactly: expectations & guidance is important (I literally heard that a lot from junior data engineers & students when I started teaching/training): Giving a "standard" format which included guidance on what minimum information to include really, really helped both me & them
 
@Catija That's better than I thought. ;)
 
@KevinB speaking of which:
I am a bit concerned as to why my comments here were deleted. My comments remaining don't tell the complete picture. — Bhargav Rao ♦ 1 hour ago
@BhargavRao Please post an answer or a new meta post; comments are not meant for extended discussion and are often cleaned up. If you'd like to have more permanence attached to something, posting it as an answer is your best bet. As a moderator you can also move comments to chat. In this case that felt odd since there were three or four different discussions going on in the comments that were resolved between their parties. I left one of your comments because it stood on its own. It's also worth noting I was in the middle of a massive comment cleanup and got distracted. — George Stocker ♦ 7 mins ago
 
7:54 PM
yes I have, I just don't like friction logs for feature requests (love them for other issues mind just hard to determine action-ability with them - for me....could just be me)
 
What's that all about?
 
eh, i'd rather not express my opinion on that matter
 
the question is open to the general public...I missed the original thread :(
> It's also worth noting I was in the middle of a massive comment cleanup and got distracted.
that sounds eerily familiar :|
 
I honestly just think its cause I'm more used to Epics/User Stories from using/adapting Agile/Lean methodologies for 10 years more than friction logs being bad (I also bet I'm not the only SO person whose had that experience)
 
Epic or Sisyphean Tragedy?
 
7:58 PM
Is "mod censoring other mods in a rush" the brave new world of meta?
2
 
@AndrasDeak This probably is not the right place to discuss deletion of someone else's comments under another Q&A discussion
 
nah, they're humans, and have different opinions, like most humans.
 
@TylerH Fair enough. I just started here based on the earlier remark about that answer. Where should I ask then?
Certainly not The Tavern because I'd probably just get suspended there again, based on how the wind is blowing on MSE
 
Well, if you're truly that interested and think an answer is deserved, you could ask a question on Meta.
However, respectfully, I don't think it's worth inquiring about, personally.
 
Yeah, that's exactly the response I'd expect from such an official enquiry.
 
8:01 PM
George already owned up to it and gave an explanation why -- not sure what's left to glean, IMO
 
I would have expected them to handle that in their private chat
 
learning the contents of deleted comments out of morbid curiosity is probably not a sufficient reason, I'm guessing
 
"Mod's comments partially deleted in a way that makes them remark that it ends up in a biased view" sounds a lot more than "morbid curiosity" to me.
Especially in context and current climate. And with the deletion being done by the one mod who publicly endorses the New Era.
4
 
Except George's comment already explained that there's no intention of instilling bias, and that the remaining comment stands on its own (in George's opinion)
 
yeah, George's opinion
 
8:03 PM
@AndrasDeak Not everything is connected; mods still delete comments like they always do
 
They can work it out. Great thing about mod-deleted comments... they can always be undeleted.
 
@AndrasDeak I'm not sure where my mind went. Why did I think of Kronika just then?...
 
@TylerH right
 
(and why did it sound so apt)
 
@Makoto I believe I'm missing that reference :)
 
8:04 PM
@AndrasDeak MK11
A few minutes of YouTube'll sort you all the way out
 
thanks, I'll look it up :)
 
@AndrasDeak the acting mod's opinion is what we always get when we ask questions about mod actions, which is exactly my point -- George deleted the comments and already gave his reasoning, hence I'm not sure what else there is to gain/understand, unless you're just 1) curious for its own sake, or 2) want to make a scene out of nothing (and I'm guessing you are in the 1st camp, not the 2nd :-))
 
I'm mostly curious about context. We can argue how relevant that is in the grand scheme of things :P
 
8:19 PM
@Catija I'm probably getting too caught up thinking about it (I'm in the middle of finishing some lectures & doing some research so my analytical mind is running full tilt) but, honestly, anything from SE that would state "Hey guys! While we look at better methods for implementing FR, we'd like you to start making them using this format. This will help avoid \<insert all reasons given here & in post\> as referenced in ....".
3
Whatever this format is, and I would certainly suggest using one which is familiar to technology fields, just tell us and tell us why. A huge part of the problem right now, IMHO, is that SE has something it wants done - doesn't communicate how we could help them - then gets mad when we try to help anyway the same way we always have (yes, I agreed with this point on the blog)
and blindsides us with "well, your part of the problem" after the fact. If we have the guidance and expectations up front, not even really a discussion just at least a "lets get on the same page" style post, it would likely reduce at least some of the tension. I.E. currently this post referencing Friction Logs is kinda buried so a full post which ask for a new format for users submitting FR request would
not take any development time on SO's part, at least make it clear to users what is expected, and (hopefully) allow some positive or at least neutral interactions between SE & SO now that we have some understanding of what SO wants
 
@Makoto wow, Mortal Kombat has a plot now!
 
You can likely expect a bit more attention to be paid to extended discussion / off topic conversation / “dunking” and what not to be addressed in comments since that is part of the pile-on mentality that led to meta no longer being a primary place for feedback for Stack Overflow the company. As always, If you’d like to have permanence for what you’re writing, post an answer or a new question as appropriate. Comments are ephemeral and are treated as such.
 
@JGreenwell I understand that frustration. There's a lot of excitement and interest in helping to make the site better and I love that. There's years worth of problems that have been discussed on meta by hundreds of people. Filtering through all of that is hard. I think that's why we started the second stack exchange quality project back in 2016... and I was there linking to suggestions, too. It's enticing to think about starting over but it's also scary.
 
We let it get really lax on meta for historical reasons and it’s resulted in this. Not good for any of us. It’s not going to be a night and day change and nor will it occur overnight, but more attention is being paid to comments.
 
@GeorgeStocker how about making this change that you alone seem to be publicly advocating be something that is first reached as a consensus among mods? Assuming that hasn't happened yet.
my impression has always been that all our mods follow the same general guidelines, but these days I'm not so sure about that, which is quite disconcerting as a "mere human"
 
8:33 PM
frankly i find comment threads as whole being moved to chat or outright deleted in cases like this to be... problematic
 
this itself is a good topic for meta. I bring it up here since there was some discussion in chat a few bars up.
 
@KevinB I much prefer the former; chat is persistent, even if it conveys the same kind of "sweep under the rug" attitude that the company is applying to meta now
 
it reeks of silencing criticism, even if that isn't why it's happening. Yes, chat is a better medium for many of these discussions, but it's also far less public.
 
let's be honest, with "hot meta" gone there's little fresh blood coming in from main
the remaining masochistic ones ("the 0.015%") are going to keep track of these anyway
 
@Catija Yes, which is why I think guidance on this one point (I certainly think there are other problems but if we just keep saying "there are a lot of problems" then nothing will get done) would be easy to do (on SO's side) and fairly well received, at least as well as can be given recent history, and a start.
I certainly could post a Meta question on it (proposing the use of a "user story" like format for FRs as I stated earlier) but then it would turn into a discussion and would again be SO.Meta making a decision "on its own with no guidance" and thereby help nothing (regarding the community, I do think it would help FR). If instead an SE employee made it (even if there was resistance) its a start.
 
8:38 PM
@KevinB It's a real issue on smaller sites like RPG.SE where mods regularly contradict the rules and delete whole comment threads instead of migrating them to chat.
well, I say mods, it's really just two of the team of 6 or so
 
In most cases, doing so (moving to chat) ends the discussion
 
but transparently, at least
 
though, i do prefer using chat for discussion rather than comments, if only people would participate the way people have here more commonly
 
Keeping all comments in chat feels a bit like hoarding. There’s definitely a loss aversion going on with deleted comments, even if the comments detracted overall from the post and make the original argument harder to understand
That said, we definitely lean towards that for meta when possible
 
@KevinB directed replies are extremely useful and unavailable on comments
that makes all the difference here, I think
 
8:47 PM
Honestly, if I notice deleted comments, on Meta.SE or SO, I just assume an SE employee deleted them (based on previous experience last year within this whole whatever this still is)
I don't mind moving to chat - I just wished it changed upvotes to stars when it did that (yes, there is a FR for that)
 
@JGreenwell that would be nice. Context is lost
 
It would be great of mods could select (including a select all and per-comment de-select feature) which comments to migrate to chat
The "all or nothing" method right now is very limiting
also yeah, upvotes to stars would be great
 
yeah
 
On a note related to the subject of the chatroom - I'm glad to see the [featured] posts can now show 3 at a time on the sidebar, cc @GeorgeStocker
 
That is nice.
I wish we could do 4.
But I’ll settle for three
 
8:52 PM
heck, 5 even
it really should be a mod-decided # if mods are in charge of it
but there's a lot of room now for additional ones with so much stuff being removed/removable from the sidebar
 
heh, actually it has two FRs one on main meta & one on Meta.SO
 
There was mention of chat being worked on a few months ago, i wonder what was done
 
Really? Wow.
I wouldn't mind if the mobile version magically became on par with the desktop one...I guess one can dream :P
 
At work I can only access chat through mobile
 
about a mobile version that works? yeah, I've been having that dream since I started on SE
 
8:57 PM
It's a pain to moderate, even as a room owner. I can imagine it's worse for mods.
 
i think the mobile chat works surprisingly well
 
@KevinB yes, but still hamstrung compared to desktop
 
@GeorgeStocker I wish we could configure it so we could dismiss posts and open spots.
 
unfortunately none of my userscripts work there
nor does my adblock
 
@canon as like “I’ve seen this, remove it so next in line will show up?”
 
8:58 PM
yes
 
I like that too
Right now there isn’t much use in featuring more than 3 items since they won’t show up no matter what
The extras, that is
 
I don't really need that much real-estate devoted to the filters... you know?
 
@canon that would be a great feature to implement if the people deciding what to implement would want hot meta posts to be easily accessible
I sense a fatal flaw in that plan...
 
Probably performance since it's so heavily cached as it is.
 
yeah, just that
 
9:01 PM
Apparently there are several caches at play for the sidebar
 
mhmm
 
I removed the Facebook post from featured and it took six hours for it to be removed
2
 
The cache has an agenda!
 
@GeorgeStocker Were you making room for something else? Is there a process for unfeaturing stuff now? Or just winging it?
 
it needs to be... a bit more reactive than that to function well
 
9:03 PM
@AndrasDeak I am literally walking so I can’t link you to what I said but I can restate it: there was a lot going on that day that needed the spot; the removal of HMP for one, Yvette’s two posts, the breakdown in communication post; to name three
Or is that 4?
 
@GeorgeStocker ah, sure thing, I'll look it up in the transcript
 
I have a habit of looking to that list very often... but it's so unlikely for it to change now, it's futile
 
I may have said it here but I definitely posted it in a comment on meta
 
ah, OK, thanks for clarifying
 
Another problem with comments, they’re impossible to categorize and find
 
9:04 PM
@GeorgeStocker I thought at least mods would have some tooling for that
 
Not as much as you’d think. I can go into my history and find it even if it’s feleted, but that’s it
 
:(
That doesn't sound like a very good system for moderating comments. I thought you could search the comments of a user to find patterns of abuse and whatnot.
 
If only the comments history page were as sortable as the flag history page. :(
 
it's almost as if moderation tooling was inadequate
 
But I wouldn’t undelete it; I would however suggest that if someone raised the question on meta as to why it was removed I’d post an answer with the info as to why.
 
9:07 PM
I haven't had much trouble in the past finding recent comments that i've made, but once it's off the first 2 pages... i'll never find it again
 
new hot meta post criteria: any post where comments were moved to chat :P
 
(Why the Facebook post was unfeatured, that is)
 
@GeorgeStocker I see
 
@AndrasDeak no. We can sort comments by all, deleted, flagged. But not by flag reason, even. Oh and the pages are 500 comments long.
 
@Catija sounds like a very good direction for development work...I suspect this has been a very recent issue, considering the difficulty it must cause for moderators :P
...can't we put the design team on this feature?
 
9:10 PM
heh, we can't put the design team on any feature Andras - weren't you paying attention?! ;)
 
well when I say "we" I mean "them" because I was told there's no "us vs them"
 
@AndrasDeak Improving mod tools is generally one of our priorities.
 
I'm very glad to hear that
 
That's why we're working on the mod dashboard. I'm very interested in improving comment handling. Particularly as it relates to flags on comments. There's a lot of room for improvement.
2
 
 
2 hours later…
11:25 PM
Not sure whether to be excited or frightened by that, @Catija. I have a lot of valuable information in Stack Overflow comments; our mods have historically been much more conservative than other sites on the network about comment deletion, and allow (succinct, technical, non-rebutted) critiques of posts in the comments to stand. Any time I hear about changes to comment moderation, my hair stands up, because we have a lot to lose if the site's moderation shifts in a more deletionist direction.
6
(For the avoidance of doubt, there's nothing specific in your comment that hints to me that it will - it's just that even touching on the topic, in such an open-ended way, is enough to make me nervous.)
 

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