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12:48 AM
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1:02 AM
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1:18 AM
I came here from this post
Right now I think there are some things that I'm looking for clarification on, and other things I'd like to say and see what people think about them.
One of the things I'm unsure about is whether or not meta is still going to have sway for SE, or if it's just SO meta that will have less sway.
I will say, when I first joined stack overflow, I was in high school. There was a tough learning curve, but eventually I came to love stack overflow and how things were done here. In fact, one of my favorite things about the site was that the creators of the site would post about their proposed changes in order to get feedback from the community. This was on Meta. So I felt like if there was something I really liked, or really didn't like, my voice could actually be heard by real human beings.
To contrast, today I got an email back from Google about me submitting feedback that how when I clicked on their map of a congressional district, it just gave me a map of the entire state. The response? "Thank you for submitting feedback on Google Search. You’re receiving this email to update you about your submission. We’ve reviewed your feedback. Unfortunately, the changes you suggested are not supported at this time."
No explanation why. No people saying "hey I want this too!". The interaction didn't feel like a community. It felt like me lightly poking a huge beast and it telling me "go away".
I loved it when the new privacy policy was released and I was actually able to understand what had changed, and decide that I didn't like it, and excuse myself from the binding arbitration.
I recently left this comment on a post before I saw Yvette's post, praising Stack Overflow for being so transparent.
So I guess I'm not so worried about losing Meta. What I'm worried about is losing transparency. I have enough Googles and Facebooks and Amazons in my life that don't treat me like a full, living, caring human being. Meta, to me, showed me that Stack Overflow wasn't like that. Even if it did things I didn't like, it heard me, and had a community that could support me or supply reasons as to why it didn't support me.
I'm not sure if this will be heard, or who this will be heard by, but these are my thoughts at the moment. I hope that if Stack Overflow decides to move away from Meta, they still provide methods of communication and feedback that allow me to feel like I'm a part of a community, not just like a lonely isolated powerless person. As Yvette put it, I don't want to feel like I am "SO small".
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4 hours later…
user3956566
5:46 AM
@AndrasDeak so true. And losing control on here mimics the lack of control we have with our own government. But the latter is worse :/
 
user3956566
@ProQ I've asked a CM to address your concerns
 
8:11 AM
@GeorgeStocker Not as if Elasticsearch/Chef/Ansible/Puppet/etc. have open source github repo of their products with public issues just around. I don't understand your view of SO as an exception here.
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8:53 AM
@Shog9 Only just saw this chat (link from meta), but most of the interesting discussion appears to have take place during my night, so... Thank you for your contributions here, especially your reflections on "environment" (nature vs. city). Glad to know you're on the job and know how to maintain your balance!
@GeorgeStocker (and @SaraChipps) I've only skimmed the latter part of this chat transcript, but a consideration on the point of "piling on in comments" which occurred to me while reading this transcript and getting the full force of some participants' contributions... Perhaps a limit on the number of comments within a certain time period on a single contribution (Q or A) for anyone not the OP of the contribution? Sort of forcing a "time out"?
 
9:26 AM
It doesn't really matter since the chat is, well, a chat.
That's why the comments were moved here, because comments are not for extended discussion. That's what chat is for. There's no need to place limits on chat.
 
 
1 hour later…
10:47 AM
@forest It happens aplenty in comment threads proper, though.
In fact, it was happening in this thread before it was moved to chat.
@CindyMeister I remember this sketch of how that might be done:
38
A: Can we implement temporary automatic comment ban on 'x' number of validated rude comment flags?

Shog9This suggestion is coming up with increasing frequency in various forms; one of my colleagues expressed amazement this morning that we don't already do this - he'd spent the morning cleaning up after an abusive comment-author, only to find this person had kept right on leaving abusive comments th...

This MSE question by Yvette is also relevant: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/309061/…
 
Well, that's why it's so good that mods can move comments to chat.
 
11:12 AM
@SaraChipps I guess I came late to the "party", but I left you some thoughts here. I don't know how much it will help, how much you needed those words to be spoken but if you have some time to read... they are there.
 
user3956566
@Catija you're a welcome site sight :)
 
user3956566
@forest this has to be the most successful move of comments to chat the site has... I'm sure Shog will correct me if I'm mistaken :)
 
@forest I was offering feedback on how to reduce "mobbing" in Meta. My suggestion had nothing to do with moderating chat. It's just that, reading this transcript in one go highlights the "mobbing" problem by some contributors.
That's why it was directed specifically to George and Sara: it is response to parts of their discussion.
 
user3956566
11:29 AM
@CindyMeister another post that may interest you
 
user3956566
43
Q: Can we implement temporary automatic comment ban on 'x' number of validated rude comment flags?

Yvette ColombThere's been problems with abusive comments since the site started. What's with all the rude comments recently? We still haven't managed to conquer the issue. Negative comments drive new users away, how can we fix this? Users can be issued chat bans and post bans. The API automatically bans IP ...

 
Thanks, @duplode. I don't follow Meta SE, but it appears my thought falls pretty much on the anniversary of Shog's contribution! That's very similar to what I had in mind, except my thought was to make the limit on comments posted to a single contribution (Q or A), rather than a daily limit. Although Shog's proposal would be simpler to implement. And probably adequate as long as the 100/50 isn't cumulative across sites.
Thanks, @YvetteColomb - that's the same "thread" duplode linked to, just the starting point instead of Shog's Answer to it :-) FWIW what prompted my comments here was less anything abusive than a noticeable tendency to keep putting on pressure over a long period of time. And probably without conscious intent of doing so.
 
user3956566
@CindyMeister oh sorry!
 
It only really became noticeable because I was reading the entire transcript, rather than participating in real-time. It just seemed it could help some people to be forced to go take a walk on Shog's mountain (or in NYC if that's what helps).
@YvetteColomb Not a problem :-)
 
user3956566
@CindyMeister oh yes I totally agree. It's not necessarily bad intentions, but can be intense for the post author
 
11:37 AM
@YvetteColomb Indeed. Especially since the OP usually needs to be responding to more than one person, and keeping it all straight while maintaining their cool :-)
 
user3956566
yep. It's something I've not been particularly good at either :/
 
Something I've had to learn, over the last twenty years with the advent of e-mail, forums and SMS et.al. is to put something aside if I have an emotional reaction. Do something else like wash the floor. Then come back to it once my sub-conscious has had time to sort it out. In the days when we communicated by snail mail, this wan't a problem. We could crumple up the piece of paper and start over until we got it right.
 
user3956566
that is so true. And it applies really to all decisions and communication
 
user3956566
in fact writing with snail mail was cathartic
 
(WAY off-topic) One of my mother's friends wasn't always happy in her marriage. My mother asked her once, why she didn't communicate the problems she was having with her husband. She said, she'd sit down, write him a letter laying it all out... Then burn it because that was all it took to settle her down. I can't get quite that far, I fear <sigh>
 
user3956566
11:44 AM
hmmm maybe she felt she was overreacting
 
user3956566
our society is fast and intense these days.
 
Well, the 1950's/60's... Wives were supposed to knuckle under and accept. My generation was "women's lib"! "fast and intense": Yes, too much pressure to react and not think.
 
user3956566
I prefer the options I have today from my mother's generation, that's for sure
 
user3956566
we wouldn't be here having this discussion - or unlikely to be
 
We couldn't - no internet <BG>
 
user3956566
11:47 AM
not to mention computers weren't much of a thing back then and we didn't have chat rooms :)
 
user3956566
lol
 
Bridge games in the afternoon! That's where these discussions took place.
 
user3956566
I actually like playing bridge! It's hard to find people who play it
 
Really? Maybe it's not so popular, anymore... too much thinking and needing to interact in real-time, with real people? I grew up with it, but after moving to Switzerland I had to convert to Jass. Not exactly the same, but similar enough in needing to interact with a partner in order to win. Jass has no problem surviving here, thank goodness!
 
user3956566
I've never heard of that. hmm. Yeh we all grew up playing cards, but electronics were limited. We had a black and white tv.
 
11:57 AM
@CindyMeister Mahjong here.
 
B&W TV: yes, so did we, until later. Jass: euchre was as close as anything I ever encountered before coming here. We played that in secondary school, during lunch.
 
@CindyMeister I do that quite often, start typing an answer/comment/chat message/tweet, read it twice or more and just delete it because I realize it doesn't bring something new and has allowed me to "vent" the frustration/disagreement I had in regard to what I was replying to.
 
@Cœur Is Mahjong (also) a card game for more than one person? The only version I know is on the computer, with tiles, and it's solo.
@Tensibai Yes, indeed, it's a good habit to cultivate. One advantage with a mobile phone, vs. computer, is that I'm so darned SLOW with the little "keyboards". Lots of time to think about it - and keep it short!
 
@CindyMeister See the illustration: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahjong
 
user3956566
@CindyMeister oh yes! I know how to play that. 5 cards, like a mini 500?
 
user3956566
12:00 PM
Anyway I need to go to bed. It's been nice to catch up :)
 
@CindyMeister I've to admit for tweet I'm sometimes posting them and deleting after when they're long, as the text box doesn't allow a good enough rereading on phone :)
 
Some people start to use Siri to dictate things when using the phone.
Not extraordinarily frequent, but I've seen it.
 
@Coeur OK, I've skimmed the beginning of the Wikipedia article. I did play Rummy and Canasta as a child - it appears the princple is similar. This is every player for himself, no partners?
 
2 vs 2 in general
 
I'd think dictating answers would be even more dangerous. Not only the speed of the answer, but also what "IntelliSense" might make of the words. AutoCorrect is bad enough!
 
12:06 PM
of course, many variations in the rules... we're talking about more than a billion players
 
2 vs 2. OK... And how do the partners interact? In bridge or Jass there's the "bidding" phase, which enables a certain amount of communication. And then depending on how one plays, it's possible to get an idea of what the other players have. Just looking at the article, I have trouble imagining how it functions with partners.
Billions of players... With Jass I'd be surprised if it's more than a million, or maybe two!
@YvetteColomb Hope you sleep (slept) well :-)
 
@CindyMeister maybe in a different chatroom ;).
 
12:30 PM
Yeah, you're right :-)
 
 
1 hour later…
1:44 PM
@AndrasDeak that they're professors is irrelevant. Anyone interested in tag curation would benefit from gold badge powers.
@Shog9 Sounds like SO Docs, but question-based instead of Wiki-based.
 
2:17 PM
@Shog9 - "My first and worst experience as a team lead was three Indian contractors who didn't understand their assignments, couldn't do what I asked of them, and never told me either thing. Took me weeks to figure that out. Turns out that's... Not unusual."

That blows my mind. The worst experiences I've ever had as a developer were getting hit-and-run requirements from an executive where all I could do was nod my head, and then a week or a month later he's calling me an idiot because I didn't deliver something. [1/2]
[2/2] What I'm hearing is that this might be the daily experience for many offshore developers. I never thought about it from that perspective. It changes a lot.
 
2:36 PM
@ScottHannen uh-huh. It never even occurred to me that anyone would treat me in a deferential manner; so when it happened, it created this invisible wall, hampering communication and slowing any productive work down immensely.
 
@Shog9 do you men deferential or differential? If the latter, I'm not sure I understand what you mean
 
er, the former. Sorry, just woke up.
Tim Post, back when he was a SO mod, introduced me to the concept of power distance - this notion that within a culture or even within an organization there might be such an internalized idea of who can talk and what they can say in a given exchange as to make it nearly impossible for folks in one role to express certain things to someone in a different role.
Once you know about it, you start to see it everywhere...
 
Yeah, it's a common issue in every place I've worked
really frustrating at times
also, good morning, go have some coffee :-D
(or tea)
 
doing so as we speak ;-)
The US is generally seen as a "low power distance culture" - but it still exists. As an org grows, so too does the distance in power between the top and the bottom - as Scott notes, most of us would find it difficult to speak frankly to an exec. Or perhaps more precisely: we wouldn't even consider frank disagreement to be an option in situations where it would come naturally were we conversing with a peer.
It's hard to recognize, particularly when you're the one with the power... But learning to recognize it makes breaking down those barriers much, much easier. Simple things like offering to help with some menial task, or... just expressing sincere interest in someone's life or work... go a long way.
For me, it's what convinced me of the value of pair programming: I don't find it all that useful for most of the stated goals, but it's great for breaking down communication barriers.
I have a friend who works in construction, been doing it for a few years now. He goes out of his way to help new folks learn basic stuff like how to accurately cut timbers to size when they're starting out, because that made such a difference for him when he was starting out.
Having someone who knows a lot, who is well-respected and trusted with a great deal of responsibility... take the time to work with you, to show you the little techniques that got him there... Helps you feel like part of the team instead of just an expendable grunt.
 
One of the biggest things I've seen help said communication issues is, when someone tells you something, you say "here's what I understand you're saying" and then you repeat back to them what you think they're saying
and requesting vice versa
it's often surprising how differently people can interpret something you literally just said to them
 
2:50 PM
yeah, that active listening thing is useful. Some folks find it annoying though :-/
 
If I could go back in time 5-10 years to when I worked with offshore teams, this would change a lot. The way we viewed them and what we got from them was at least partially a self-fulfilling prophecy. I'm struggling to get my head around how much potential was wasted.
 
yeah. I felt the same way - I spent nearly my entire time with that team feeling like I was the victim, but really... We were all hurting.
 
...and I mean that in both human and business terms. Not understanding what you're supposed to be working on and having difficulty getting clarification is a massive pain point. It sucks the life out of the job.
 
If I hadn't had a friend on the other side of that equation willing to patiently explain it to me, I'd have never gotten it.
That's scary to think about; there are so many teams like this.
 
One day I'll get that chance again.
 
user11044402
2:53 PM
Sorry for the interruption. I've just tried to catch up on the transcript of this room and I wonder if there were any intersting things being said about the answer of Sara and how the commenters reacted to it.
 
user11044402
Is the situation basically as it was one or two days ago?
 
@Shog9 Bringing it back to the the recent issues, isn't this exactly what's happening on meta?
 
user11044402
As a side note I find the arugments of you, @Script47 and @jpmc26 very compelling.
 
@LutzHorn here's a neat trick: scroll up and hit the "highlights" button (direct link) - it'll give you the starred messages with a bit of context around each one. You can click through to see the full transcript from it.
2
@Script47 yes
I'm not just reminiscing for the heck of it ;-)
 
No, I guess not. I just wanted to confirm that I was on the right track (active listening stuff...).
 
2:57 PM
@Shog9 i dont think i ever noticed that button :O
 
@LutzHorn To my knowledge? Yes.
 
@Dragonrage You're not alone. AFAIK someone even posted a question about it on meta a few months ago, assuming it was new...
But yeah - as the company has grown, as the community has aged, so too has the perceived distance in power between individuals grown with it.
And... One of the things that's made meta so appealing in the past was precisely this breaking down of walls between people: when someone with tons of experience responds to your question about the site, when a dev patiently explains how a bug occurred or why something isn't a bug... It turns that "faceless corporate facade" into a human exchange. Or as @ProQ said earlier:
13 hours ago, by Pro Q
I'm not sure if this will be heard, or who this will be heard by, but these are my thoughts at the moment. I hope that if Stack Overflow decides to move away from Meta, they still provide methods of communication and feedback that allow me to feel like I'm a part of a community, not just like a lonely isolated powerless person. As Yvette put it, I don't want to feel like I am "SO small".
 
I wonder why that is all of a sudden. SO is still positively tiny by tech company standards
the company I work for has about as many employees and not that much less revenue and most of us are on first name basis with the owners
 
it's not really; it's been slowly developing for years now. We've sorta just stopped pretending that it hasn't been.
 
Meta has been very entertaining lately. Schisms that, to me as an interested but uninvested party, have been quite informative. Meta's a lot different from how it was in my active days. Lots of new faces. Lots of old faces. The meta highlights thing was really helpful in distilling which threads I want to be reading to keep up to date on what's going on. I don't have a ton of time for Stack Overflow these days, and the highlights help keep me informed even if I don't have much to say about it.
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3:02 PM
Is that a sign that it would perhaps be better to get rid of a few layers of management?
 
@Dragonrage It's a life saver :-D
 
@Shog9 I know I keep coming back to my post and I know you mentioned that you are in agreement with @GeorgeStocker but no one has actually addressed my question: 'Why, if you are aware of this issue, do you continue to push out changes, without at the very least, consulting the community?'
 
I wouldn't have known about the front page thing at all, for example, without the hot meta posts.
 
@Shog9 I agree that that's an important contributor to what made Meta and SO the company feel special. By devs, of devs, for devs, dev-to-dev communcation.
 
@Magisch I think it's probably more than that. A flat org structure is meaningless if folks internalize a power distance and implicit hierarchy anyway; conversely, a "deep" structure need not be a problem if everyone is willing to take the time to reach out to the folks "beneath" them.
 
3:04 PM
However I don't really agree that the problems we're seeing on Meta now are caused by a move away from that
 
Yeah. We're mostly all professional developers, meaning we like speaking to the folks that run the site like peers
 
@Magisch I think its a sign that there are a bunch of silos up (lack of inter-communication if your not familiar with that PM term) within SE - esp. when I hear from CMs that they were as surprised as us (this is not the first time I've heard that). I know there is with SE vs. users but those literally are different groups so I'd expect that.
 
You're right of course, shog
 
no sweeter words...
 
We're still getting face-to-face, "talks with a person, not a company", posts throughout all of this
 
3:05 PM
You are most of the time, but in the heat of the moment, it's hard to admit when you're wrong
 
;-P
 
problem is the users have been quite hostile in a few places and the company has also been tone deaf, and neither side's willing to fix their actual issue due to the perception that the other side has a problem and thus should fix their problem first.
 
What I fear is that meta as a community is not organized enough to jump its own shadow and start making amends
we're hundreds of different people who scarcely agree on anything, with no coherence, from dozens of cultures with no unified purpose or coordination
2
 
I'm reminded of the scene in Boy Meets World where Corey and Topanga break up, even though neither of them want to, and then they both walk off scene in separate directions. Then Corey comes back, ready to take it back, but Topanga's not there, so he turns around and leaves. Then Topanga comes back, same thing... Corey's not there, so she leaves.
 
anyway, I'm out - I cannot waste anymore time on this. I said my peace a year ago on Meta.SE and it started to get better then went right back to this for the exact same reasons so too much (or too little)
 
3:07 PM
@Magisch I agree, hence my recommendation the other day about having a focus group of Meta regulars/non-regulars that SO could meet with and bounce ideas/perception off of before posting to the whole community
 
might be a good idea
I've found my little niche where participation in curation is still fun though, so I'm not too worried
 
3:21 PM
I'm not sure anyone knows where this is going right now, or where it will end. It's big, complicated, messy... The best any of us can do is to try our best to understand one another.
btw, nice to hear from you @Welbog - been a while!
 
user50049
4:13 PM
@TylerH There's a middle to that, and that's been pretty much where I've been. I think the platform itself is just prone to bringing out the worst in people all too often. It tends to reward harsh punditry, sensationalism, hyperbole and groupthink. While every community does have some members that are notoriously more abrasive as the rest,i I don't think the problem with meta is the people.
 
user50049
so if that's the glue between a company and a community, any misalignment is going to be greatly exacerbated, encouraged and perpetuated.
 
user50049
Sara's answer was a bit more direct than what I was prepared to share (mostly because of concerns for people's privacy, even though we don't directly mention anyone or any interaction, folks experiencing that stuff are watching this). But these are symptoms of a system that doesn't incentivize the right kind of communication, or worse, incentivizes the wrong kind, however tacitly.
 
@TimPost Alternative interpretation: our recent subject matter is prone to bringing out the worst in people, not the platform
Perhaps you'll disagree, but I think our level of civility, kindness, and understanding - in both directions - was much higher prior to the welcoming drive. There were occasional bad interactions, but I remember staff-community discussions being generally friendly as respectful back then
11
Also, we've seen plenty of hostility in the discourse lately not merely in comments but in full Meta posts and in blog posts
And I don't think that's surprising, given that our current hot topics are, and have been for the last year and a bit, 1) is the fundamental goal of Stack Overflow changing in a way that destroys the community the old guard were trying to build? Should it? Will/should their years of work be put to the torch? and
2) in what ways is it acceptable to talk to others? Whose personal or cultural habits around communication make them personally immoral? How shall we punish those people?
The stakes around those issues, and the degree to which they are deeply emotionally sensitive to people, are going to lead to conversations blowing up and people getting hurt no matter what platform they happen on
 
user50049
5:21 PM
@MarkAmery I don't think the two are mutually-exclusive. In fact, I think one is prone to feeding the other, in whichever order you place them.
 
user50049
@MarkAmery Have you ever heard of the adage "death by a thousand cuts"?
 
user50049
Okay, so, if you look deep enough into a history of what any given user has ever typed on a site, you're going to find times where they were transparently annoyed, to say the least. However, on meta, most terrible reactions come from commentary that I'd generally only classify as well, blunt. Sometimes a little abrasive, sometimes a little strained, but just .. blunt.
 
user50049
Coming from one or a few people to one person at once, I don't think anyone would really mind it. But, coming from hundreds at once, it's a much different story.
 
user50049
Everyone having their say, when that say is a negative reaction, is just way too much for one person's inbox, and that's how the funnel ends up taking shape.
 
user50049
I don't think @MarkAmery that we can avoid people getting passionate because they have an emotional investment. That's going to happen anywhere you put human beings together and ask them to cooperate. But, meta, as designed, is like an amplifier and super collider for it.
 
user50049
5:32 PM
The best analogy I have for what I see is actually what I hear, whenever I take a vintage guitar and put it right in front of a high gain amplified speaker.
 
user50049
@MarkAmery That's also a point in time where we had things we knew we had to do, and were going to do, and no real amount of feedback was going to change anything in how we approached it. It's so easy to look back on things, but at the time - the worst thing we could do is put something out there we knew we weren't receptive to changing much and essentially waste people's time.
 
user50049
First it was one or two things. Then we had to put a few more things on hold to reinforce those things. Then it snowballed.
 
user50049
So at the time, "Well, it's just this one thing, or these other things, or we can get to that next month instead" and it keeps going like that until you realize we've now got very fundamentally different understandings of how things are supposed to work.
 
@TimPost FWIW I agree with (or at least understand and see the element of truth in) everything you just said up until your last three messages, which I don't understand. (The lack of understanding is probably correlated with the fact that when I CMD-F for the word "thing", there are 11 matches on the page and they're all in the last three messages; they're abstract to the point that I can't really figure out what you mean or match up what you're saying to anything concrete)
 
@YvetteColomb Thank you
 
5:50 PM
@MarkAmery Best I can interpret, there was a need that had to be filled, and executing it led to other knock on aspects that had to be changed, too.
Essentially, SE bit off more than they could chew, and nobody knows what it will take, or where it will end.
 
@fbueckert ... I think I'm being wittily trolled, but I'm not sure :P
But suffice it to say that that interpretation was not exactly any more concrete than the original
 
user50049
@fbueckert Not more than we could chew, just I think .. more than we anticipated. And a great deal of what we need to do has to happen pretty quickly. While we're completely open to bugs and feedback, we don't want us not acting on it to seem like we're not listening to it. And that was a problem way before this snowball started rolling.
 
@MarkAmery Er, wasn't an attempt at trolling, but probably just me minsunderstanding what's going on.
 
user50049
The dilemma essentially: If we communicate it but don't act on feedback much at all, we're not listening. If we don't communicate it, we're not involving. And it became a bigger struggle over time to help keep people feeling like a part of things in the space where we could listen and react.
 
@TimPost Well, for what credit I can give, SE is far more responsive here than you've been since the beginning of the welcoming drive.
 
user50049
5:57 PM
@fbueckert I made a mistake and it's an honest one, so I'll own it. I tried so hard to keep things from coming to a head ... and really, that's what had to happen months ago.
 
@TimPost what mistake do you reckon you made?
 
It's one of those damned if you, damned if you don't situations. I can understand people aren't perfect. Just that there's been a ton of frustration building for quite some time.
 
user50049
I kept struggling to try to find a way to make everything continue to work in a whole new process and .. I think a part of me resisted a feeling I had early on that it just wasn't possible to continue the way we're used to doing things.
 
FWIW, while I acknowledge that a lot of the community are frequently frustrated by the lack of transparency or by feedback being ignored (or by both, or the perception of one or both of those things where it's not really true), I think that's at most one component of the cause of the relationship breakdown we've had with y'all
The bigger problem is the sense that our values and objectives are not just misaligned but, increasingly, in irreconcilable opposition to each other
 
user50049
The other problem was, because things were getting increasingly tense, it was hard to promote the idea of more communication on meta internally. So it ended up being a few of us that have gotten to know folks over the years and know that individually, each person means only the best, but we're not the people with direct control over the schedule. So we became kinda like proxies, which, well, wasn't ideal.
 
6:01 PM
Switching from laissez faire oversight to a major shift nobody saw coming causes fear and frustration.
2
 
A company that didn't listen to us or share its thoughts with us much might frustrate from time to time, but wouldn't provoke the level of anger that's been around recently. A company that does that and also seems like it may burn down everything here we care about is a different matter
sorry, gtg
 
user50049
@MarkAmery I think that's a bigger discussion. Sara and I talk about this a lot. The principles are solid, we agree on them. The mechanics that enforce them are growing increasingly irrelevant.
 
It removes what little agency people had, and pushing changes the community doesn't agree with just reinforces that lack.
 
user50049
Well, we're gonna keep pushing changes certain parts of the broader community don't agree with. And folks in this room are just that, part of the broader community.
 
user50049
Has anyone ever been in a position where new parts of leadership take over in large portions?
 
6:03 PM
I'm not saying you shouldn't.
 
user50049
Like, you have a couple of VPs and a CEO rotate all at once?
 
I'm just pointing out that reinforcing the lack of agency is going to result in disillusionment and disgruntlement.
 
user50049
It sucks when you realize that your experience and opinion weighs less than it used to. Hard stop. I acknowledge that.
 
user50049
(kinda going through that over here, too)
 
Cost of doing business, I guess.
I don't really have much to add beyond that. Just reading this chat tires me out. Kudos for truth, at least.
 
6:10 PM
I don't buy the argument that the platform is what's prone to bringing out the worst in people, really at all. I agree the platform reinforces groupthink, but that's true of literally any platform, not a problem that's unique to SO/SE. I agree with Mark that it's the subject matter and, specifically, the deliverance of the subject matter that's led to that. The folks who've gotten really really upset and/or left due to feeling unheard are not leaving because SO's decided to do things differently
they're that way because of the communication issue. Specifically, saying things like "That's also a point in time where we had things we knew we had to do, and were going to do, and no real amount of feedback was going to change anything in how we approached it." and "Well, we're gonna keep pushing changes certain parts of the broader community don't agree with" don't help. That's not how you talk about change that nobody likes
 
I wouldn't be too sure about that, to be honest. I am not really fully involved in this thing but iirc a lot of people were upset about this whole welcoming thing. There was no reason for them to be more welcoming to people who were using the site "incorrectly" (whatever that might be).
 
You say "the company has decided this change is in its best interest. We're sorry that this isn't what some of you want to hear/prefer to happen, but it's happening"
News that folks don't want to receive should be self-effacing, apologetic.
@geisterfurz007 That issue I think stems from a company leader calling SO users racist, writ large
All in all it seems clear SO wants to change to be a site where newer, younger, less-experienced programmers can come and learn programming and stay. That's different from what SO was billed as when it came out. And it's different from how the SO meta community has curated the site over all these years. And for some reason, the company doesn't want to come out and admit that the new goal means a different SO than the one it's been in the past (some comments notwithstanding, like Sara's posts).
4
 
Ok, yeah I see where that goes, true.
 
That's bad enough as it is, but what's worse is the company (Tim, mostly) has been saying the opposite to Meta when Meta asks if that's what the company is doing. E.g. "no, you guys are still fine/right. Keep making quality standards a priority. Keep doing what you're doing. Review bad stuff, expect lots of research, etc."
So I totally understand when some folks get fed up and call that being lied to. Now that doesn't excuse people going overboard, and it doesn't begin to cover that a lot of users are expressing a real sense of entitlement about what the company ought to do, but I understand their frustration.
 
user50049
@TylerH I think some of that dissonance is just perspective of the people communicating the vision that we've got, which is something we're getting better at doing. SO has always been for programmers and programming enthusiasts. But the industry changed, the reasons people get into programming changed, the need to get into programming has increased across many disciplines.
 
user50049
6:23 PM
We did something major. We became what calculators are to math, just for programmers. And therein lies the problem.
 
user50049
We still serve the same audience, they're just ... a lot different than we were in 2008.
 
user50049
I gotta hop for back to back meetings, but I'll be watching the room.
 
user50049
The meetings will continue until morale improves.
 
Whose morale :-)?
 
user50049
Yes.
 
6:26 PM
@TimPost "SO has always been for programmers and programming enthusiasts. " That's not really the mission statement though, which is what's changing.
 
6:40 PM
@TimPost In your question "Lots of things are taking attention away from tag requests, moderators explaining actions taken, and similar things." Won't the featured tag on questions do the same? People are already trying to build something similar to what HMP was previously, by making a script and running it.
Regardless of relevance, they are automatically featuring posts based on views and votes to the users
2
 
i mean... doesn't really matter if feedback at those posts are ignored.
 
@SaraChipps I wonder how much main-site traffic could be attributed to the contributions of that .015%.
 
@canon Quite a lot, if you consider "people reached" as a metric. But that's just one cherry picked example.
 
I have some trepidation wading in here, because as my sibling answer states I am indeed not a regular Meta partisan, nor do I wish to become one. First, to the the answer itself: I empathize with the SO employees who refuse to participate in Meta. Second: I thought the Sara Chipps blog post was insightful if (necessarily) short on concrete steps forward.
 
The whole point of HMP and Featured was to draw in meta outsiders to provide their opinion. Now we're purposely reducing that, for.... "reasons"
 
6:52 PM
@TylerH That metric was built on a poor algorithm and based on paltry data. It can't even credit views based on whether they ocurred after the answer was created. So, if your answer overtakes another, you'll get credit for all the views... even if a million of them happened prior to your answer.
 
@canon Top 10 users on , for example, have a combined 237.1 million people reached
 
I'm trying to rationalize the HMP removal either as one of those steps (newcomer sees in sidebar that existing people claim not to like it here and figures they wouldn't want to stay either) or as a "guys, just give the complaining a rest while we fix things"
 
@canon Sure, I'm just giving one cherry picked example, as I said
 
I was mildly cynical about the HMP removal as shown in my exchange with Baum, but I went ahead and flagged the Facebook Avatar post to be featured, because it's a thing I happen to care about. I was frankly shocked when it actually went up.
And then a bit grouchy (maybe justifiably? maybe not?) when it came back down. Nonetheless, it did get a Tim Post response out of the ordeal, now deleted, wherein the OP and Tim both seemed to expect the worst from each other in the comments.
 
Even if you guys took that major step because of mental issues in work to make the work experience better or any other reasons, I accept it and even posted a criterion as to how we should assign posts in the "featured" section by keeping the relevance. What would be your response to the users who are still trying to modify the "featured" section to work just like HMP? @TimPost
By keeping in mind that this feature is supported by the major population of our community. I am curious as to how you will handle that.
 
7:02 PM
@Michael I'm sure Tim won't confirm or disconfirm this, but to my eyes it was blatantly obvious that Tim was being leaned on from above and going against his own conscience through gritted teeth in that answer
It was transparently disingenuous, coming from someone who clearly personally cares about the issue, and after a conspicuous silence that lasted for months
 
I’d wait for an official answer before jumping to conclusions. Conspiracy theories are fun but seldom constructive.
3
 
Lol
 
y'all heard him: conspiracy theories are fun!
(but yeah; answer is probably coming back - just got some stuff to iron out. Don't get too worried just yet)
 
@Michael For a long time meta has had no more control than a toddler in a car-seat with a Fisher-Price driving wheel. We've had some say in how things were done in the past because Jeff needed the community and its input in order to get the site into position. Now they've got 300 people with data scientists and UI/UX specialists! They're not going to "fix meta" in any way that's meaningful to us. They're not suddenly going to start taking the meta community seriously again.
 
@GeorgeStocker Sounds good. But it's thing I care about, unrelated (I thought) to the usual suspects in Meta controversy. But it ended up bringing the contention along with it.
 
7:06 PM
Stack overflow is a corporate entity with shareholders and an org chart. This isn’t yesteryear when we could just expect the CTO to randomly respond to everything.
 
@GeorgeStocker Eh, even if the second sentence is true, the first doesn't really go with it. Official answers generally don't confirm conspiracy theories even if they're true.
 
they generally don't confirm anything.
 
Hey @Shog9, I just was thinking about our conversation yesterday about "library" questions, and I was thinking that maybe this is a distinction that has always existed, but was simply less of a visible problem because when the library was empty, there were so many things that needed to be added to it, and now that the library is jam packed, more and more things don't fit in. Does that make sense (asking you as someone who's been around for a while, since I haven't been).
 
Personally, I'm relieved that they've pretty much admitted that, "We don't really care for meta's input." That's all I ever wanted. If this isn't really collaborative, just say so.
 
@thesecretmaster probably a part of it, yeah. You see this elsewhere too.
 
7:18 PM
@Shog9 I thought your proposal here was one of the best I've ever seen - it would make moderation easier, give some extra value to tag badges, and reduce embarrassment and other negative emotions for newbies. Is there any chance we'll ever see something like this implemented?
 
@Shog9 forgive me if I asked you this already, but do you know if there are any plans on rolling out the question wizard to other sites?
 
"Green and yellow purple." /aghast
Shog's favourite color is that of a bruise.
 
7:34 PM
@thesecretmaster I think I disagree with this or at least think that the metaphor you're using is one that's likely to lead you astray. Calling on a physical, space-based metaphor - by talking about a "jam-packed" library in which new things no longer "fit" - is a questionable match for a website where there's effectively no limit on how many questions we can have. We have infinite space in this library!
Does that mean new questions can't do harm by their very existence? No - they can do harm. But the right metaphor, I think, isn't "we're running out of space"
 
user50049
@weegee We're working with the moderators and they know that the one major stake we have in that is not re-creating HMP with the featured section. If any solution started to approach that, we'd need to have a discussion at the minimum. It looks like they're settling on using some automation to help surface things that need boosts, like tag requests, and will be using featured to help that stuff get more eyes.
 
@MarkAmery I kinda meant "space" as in "topics to cover" -- lotsa the questions that get asked already have answers elsewhere.
 
user50049
I'm not going to micromanage what the mods feature. At the same time, I have a boss, and she says "Don't let featured become the new HMP"
 
:(
 
user50049
That said, communication to users vested in any given tag about maintenance work that needs to happen in that tag needs to be more deliberate than hoping people notice a post about it in the sidebar.
 
user50049
7:39 PM
We said "Just post on meta" as a solution to so many things that probably needed a more deliberate and documented channel just because we had it and it was good at doing all things.
 
user50049
(yes, that's a jQuery joke)
 
@thesecretmaster Rather, good Q&A pairs are beautiful statues in a vast, vast countryside that is still full of empty space. Bad but well-SEOed Q&A pairs on superficially similar topics are rubbish, tacky statues that have positioned themselves near to the beautiful ones and put up neon signs to lure people away. But the empty space - the totally unrelated topics to ask about - still very much exists, and can still be filled with beauty.
 
@TimPost I must be brain-dead. I've got to go re-read why HMP was bad in the first place.
 
@TimPost Boss == Sara?
3
 
user50049
@canon It was drawing people into bad experiences, in a mixed bag of ways.
 
7:40 PM
If i'm parsing that correctly, what is currently showing up in the featured list... goes against that request.
 
user50049
@MarkAmery Yes.
 
user50049
@KevinB I think we can allow a little time for the mods to figure out how they want to handle it.
 
So, part of the problem here is that there's no logical connection between HMP and the problems Sara listed as her reason for removing it :/
2
Controversial staff posts were... always featured anyway
 
@TimPost That's what I thought... though, I don't know that you're really going to stop the community-driven solution from doing the exact same thing without taking that control back from the mods.
 
We want HMP because it helps us bring visible to community curation-related posts
So any policy of "remove HMP, don't create HMP" would seem to amount to a policy of... focussing the community's attention solely on the most divisive, anger-inducing posts on Meta while removing all exposure to the uncontroversial, totally constructive stuff
2
 
user50049
7:43 PM
@MarkAmery There is. The HMP tended to amplify so much negativity. And it created a dynamic where at any given moment, 300 angry people were coming at someone at once. That's why we're moving product communication to the blog.
 
@MarkAmery Is the controversial stuff not important? :/
 
user50049
Since removing HMP also results in less visibility of site-maintenance stuff, we let mods know they could feature whatever needed eyeballs, and that we'd no longer occupy any slots.
 
@TimPost "That's why we're moving product communication to the blog." Ouch. I guess the only place to complain about product communication will be on twitter. ;)
5
 
@canon Sure. I'm not arguing otherwise. I'm just arguing that if you want to specifically reduce the eyeballs on controversial posts in which staff members are involved (which seems to be the stated objective) then it makes no sense to remove HMP
 
@MarkAmery Yarp.
 
user50049
7:46 PM
We will answer questions about blog posts on meta. As long as there's some possibility of there being an answer people wouldn't just reject and rage over.
 
Is the company actually interested in meta feedback, though? Honestly?
 
user50049
Yes.
 
user50049
Absolutely.
 
I disagree with many of your other comments, but I think you are correct here, Mark. I think it's self-evident how this came to be, but I'd like to make it explicit:
Posters were feeling discouraged, for the reasons outlined in Sara's blog post, but the way they were able to describe the reasons they were discouraged sounded more like "Long-time users are mean to me." Then, Management embarked upon the welcoming project, which sounded to long-time users like "You're being mean."
People took that personally. (_I_ took that personally for a while.) They were self-righteous, and took up their
 
user50049
I think people believe that because we didn't act on it that we didn't find it valuable, or interesting, or that it didn't somehow influence other decisions in different ways.
 
user50049
7:48 PM
The other disconnect is we do listen, even if we ultimately do something other than what a few hundred people voted in favor of.
 
God bless the userscript.
 
@Michael I think that's accurate. Only quibble I have with it is one of framing - you say the welcoming project "sounded" to us like "You're being mean.", which seems to carry the implication that wasn't the intended message. It frequently was - indeed, much of the language used has featured explicit moral criticism
Such as Jay's post describing many of us as not being "kind", or Sara's answer here characterising us as dishing out "abuse"; those aren't morally neutral terms describing misunderstandings or culture clashes. They're openly attributing other people's feelings to our moral failings.
2
@TimPost This... still seems like a roundabout way of doing things. Migrating staff posts to the blog is the only part of that plan that will really shelter staff from any Meta negativity.
 
@Dragonrage No current plans. I would expect future work to aim at bringing some of the lessons learned from the Wizard into the standard Ask form, across all sites.
 
Just a personal thought that you should also take part in deciding what goes on under the featured section instead of putting all on the mods. Hope you are seeing this meta.stackoverflow.com/a/387605/10967889 and know what might happen next. @TimPost
 
@StephenKennedy there's always a chance. But no current plans.
 
7:58 PM
Like, how does Sara envisage the new featured slots being different to HMQ in terms of what content they're gonna have in it?
What's not going to go in there that was in there before?
 
user50049
44
A: Creating a system for featuring posts. Tell the mods what you want

weegeeAdd the featured tag to the posts that need judgment, attention, feedback from the community. Instead of assigning featured to post that have high votes and views, assign it to those which needs attention from the community. The categories of the posts that should be featured. Burninations...

 
user50049
^^^ That's where things are ending up, but it's still a bit vague.
 
All of those things listed as included are all the same things that were showing up in HNQ.
 
Edit it. I have no idea what more to put there
 
user50049
There are things not on that list. E.g. "Stack Overflow is Evil"
 
user50049
8:01 PM
or "Why did user1234 call me a wookie?"
 
user50049
or a whole subset of selections that ... quickly start qualifying as "hot" to a machine
 
user50049
I gotta run to the store. I'll be around a little later (maybe 5 - 6 hours)
 
"Why did user1234 call me a wookie" Never saw questions like that making it to HMP. I really have missed a lot of points under what should not be featured. Preparing an edit now.
 
@TimPost It's tough because, for meta, the expectation of collaboration was established years ago. It might be helpful if someone told meta, in an official capacity, that the relationship has changed, e.g.: "We announce product changes, once they're live, on the blog. Comments will be disabled. Make a bug report if something is functionally broken. If we'd like your opinion, we'll explicitly create a discussion." The truth may be unpleasant but it's better to know where you stand, imo...
2
It looks like it's headed that way if it's not there already. If I've misinterpreted, I apologize.
 
I mean, whether or not that's true, they'll never come out and state it.
 
8:13 PM
@KevinB Still, it'd probably be healthier for everyone, in the long run, if they took some control back and owned it.
 
Eh, can't say I'm a fan of that list at all (sorry @weegee). The list notably doesn't include:
* Curation discussions (e.g. what to do with this particular post? should we have a canonical about X?)
* Support questions
* Rules discussions (e.g. how to handle this sort-of-plagiarism edge case? Are questions about X on-topic?)

I also disagree quite strongly with explicitly _not_ featuring discussions about diamond moderator decisions. Unlike the staff, the mods are elected by us, and seem to have no problem with receiving feedback from us on Meta, or with justifying themselves to us there, a
 
the fact is, they are still going to look to meta for feedback. it's just they want to make it very clear that the feedback will 99 times out of 100 be countered by the vast amount of magical hidden un-shareable feedback that they're getting elsewhere.
 
@KevinB I'm also pretty angry, but this is a very uncharitable interpretation
 
howso?
 
They have a lot of feedback sources, but it's not "magical hidden unshareable feedback"
Most of that is individualized and they do share at least the methods and most of the time the gist of what they were getting
 
8:16 PM
@KevinB If I had a nickle for every time "meta is not representative of the community..."
2
 
It's not like any of that is a black box or a "just trust us" kind of deal.
 
aka "we have other sources but won't share them"
 
But they have been sharing them!
 
where?
 
@MarkAmery if there is a discussion that needs wider community involvement, we are going to do our best to feature it. Only two featured items show up and unless we bust the cache we won’t see it for some time; but the idea that we won’t publicize events that need community input isn’t supported by the evidence.
 
8:17 PM
@MarkAmery I created the list by keeping in mind as to why HMP was removed. I tried to keep the posts that need feedback from the whole community. Not just meta regulars.
 
@MarkAmery Various kinds of petty, inflammatory, sensationalist, or otherwise nonconstructive posts.
 
Just make that sidebar configurable, imo. I couldn't care less about those podcasts.
3
 
Here's a list of things I can remember they've said they use to gather feedback, just from casually following discussion:

- The research list
- Usability testing
- Personal interviews with long term users, non users and casual users
- "Friction score" e.g a data science way of analyzing which parts of the process people struggle with the most
- quantitative and qualitative analysis of how systems are being used
2
Thats just from what they told us after we asked where specific decisions came from
 
@GeorgeStocker Pretty sure you're misunderstanding me, @GeorgeStocker. I'm responding to a hypothetical set of rules about what you ought to feature that isn't yet in force; not sure what you think I'm saying.
 
That list is probably even incomplete since I haven't followed all of it closely
 
8:19 PM
(∩ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)⊃━☆゚. * ・ 。
 
Questions about support should never make it to [featured].
 
@weegee Why? Stuff like meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/254589/… seems pretty important to give visibility to.
 
What extra will you achieve by putting them inside featured?
More refined support?
Or just votes?
 
Making people aware of the change to how the site works
 
eyeballs
 
8:23 PM
Where is the change in a support question?
Support questions don't need eyeballs. Just support
 
Support questions are often of the form "Whoa, a thing happened that has never happened before. What's changed under the hood and how does this new feature work?"
And those questions deserve to be seen by everyone
 
That is a question which should be featured. This comes under Changes to some features on the site
Under the criterion, I proposed
 
Only if it's an announcement by SO staff
But:
 
My answer is really incomplete. That part will also be edited. Thanks @MarkAmery
 
1. Things can change without an announcement, leaving us to ask "Hey, what's going on"
 
8:27 PM
A major change and it will be announced by the staff
Minor changes don't really bother. If they do then its a bug.
 
2. It sounds like announcements are going to be on the blog in future, so there won't really be room for asking basic questions about how a new feature work; they're going to need new supports questions on Meta that will need to also be featured
 
seems like a pretty useless list at the end of the day
 
@KevinB what else you will like to propose? Make it HMP again?
 
No, it's just that it's rather obvious what should and shoudln't be listed
mods can handle it
 
I mean... yeah? Or even just "HMP with anti-SO rants filtered out".
Everything that ended up in HMP ended up there because it was of interest to the community, or else we wouldn't've voted on it
3
 
8:31 PM
I wonder then why the question was posted
 
people like to post stuff that will get votes
 
Not just anti SO rants
There's more to it than that
 
?
what... does anti so rants have to do with what i said, lol
 
I was referring to mark
 
like, it's obvious someone complaining about a mod action or being downvoted or any other number of stupid things shouldn't be featured. it's not a topic that needs community interaction.
what does need community interaction may not fit neatly into your defined list
it's why close reasons, downvote reasons, voting reasons in general, flags, are purposely vague
 
8:34 PM
If it's that obvious then the mods should never have posted that question. They needed information as to what should be kept inside featured.
 
Again, there are certain mods that like attention.
:shrug:
 
I don't believe it was done out of need for attention. The staff said that mods control the featured tag now. The mods then asked us what should be featured? Because they wanted to settle upon a stable version
 
it's a false sense of having some kind of control or say in the outcome
 
It was rather nice to me. The mods didn't go on settling some of their own thoughts and without telling us about the posts they are putting in featured. If that happened then someone would've gotten curious anyhow and posted a question asking "What posts are featured? Can you tell me?
 
9:05 PM
*Rules discussions*, Comes under support
*Curation discussions* under support too Like *How to handle these types of post?*
 
9:16 PM
Neither of those would normally be tagged [support], I think - rather, they're usually [discussion]
 
"never" rules are never truly "never"
 
Then it will be decided by the mods that what type of post it is. is just ambiguous in this sense. People should tag it with too if that's what their question is really about
 
@weegee I don't think so. Collective deliberation by curators doesn't really fall under support.
[support] is primarily for when someone should know the answer you are looking for; [discussion] is primarily for when we still have to hash out the answer.
(There certainly is a grey zone, but I think these are the two poles.)
 
9:42 PM
@MarkAmery Not sure about that. I don't think calling out abusive behaviour means assigning moral failings.
If I see someone dishing out personal attacks, I can denounce that as abuse, regardless of what I think about what has driven the person dishing it out.
 
@Magisch I think it would be interesting to know what was the friction score calculated for removal of HMP
 
9:57 PM
it feels like more of a knee-jerk reaction.
 
10:31 PM
@MarkAmery Even pushing people onto the blog doesn't really fully prevent all exposure. The only way they can be not exposed to criticism from the community is to just not go anywhere near the public facing site. Basically, we'd have to have no way of reaching them period. I don't know how feasible that is for a job at SO. The only idea I have is to have them use a test environment that contains a lot of dummy data instead of real Q&A.
 
eh, meta has historically always been that place you go to post complaints. naturally it's going to have more complaints than, say, SO, or twitter, etc. looking at complaints all day can be draining, demoralizing, etc, for a lot of people. If meta is going to continue to be a place where we deal with problems at SO that can benefit from employee interaction, it needs to also be a place that employees actually want to go.
I think if we instead had some alternative place to do that, to provide that kind of feedback on changes, that wasn't so open to pile on, it wouldn't be as hard to participate in.
All people want is to be able to express their opinion, most notably in a way that can hopefully be read.
If there was some other way to express my dislike of the view counts relocation i would, but for now a downvote will have to do.
 

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