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12:00 AM
You know, if you look back at Time to Take a Stand, it appears to have been triggered by an employee upset over being personally affected. It seems like maybe part of the problem here is that taking actions that negatively affect the community is considered an acceptable response to SO employees having difficult problems.
Ironically, it's probably the worst thing you can do about them, since it drags their personal problems into the limelight of millions of users and thousands of actively involved users, many of whom will argue against it because they foresee negative consequences of doing so or see it as an inappropriate venue or just because they disagree about the situation. Certainly, most don't have any personal connection with the person's suffering, which makes it unlikely many of them will sympathize.
 
@TylerH This is the crucial question.
On the other hand, it is true that Meta is a self-selected minority, and that the user base is complex well beyond Meta citizens versus content consumers...
... on the other hand, I don't think anyone knows of any other happy medium between wholly atomised users and something unrealistic like a full-blown virtual parliament...
So it seems no one knows how to handle it.
 
@duplode Even a parliamentary system would be run by a self-selected minority. First in who would be willing to represent in it and secondly in who would be willing to vote. Most users would probably not be interested enough in voting or familiarizing themselves with the candidates to vote for them.
 
On further reflection, a key part of why this rationale annoys me is that the same consideration extended to this employee has never been extended to the community. The company didn't worry about the impact on the mods of this decision - increasing the workload and exposure to controversy of volunteers. They didn't worry we'd have panic attacks over the hostile feedback when they labelled our ideas "total garbage" and us "inhuman" "Zuckerbots" during the welcoming drive.
4
Nor did they worry we'd have panic attacks over the prospect of large amounts of our content we'd created as a labor of love going up in smoke back when they implied that mass removal of critical comments might be on the cards. I did in fact lose sleep over that.
 
@jpmc26 Sure, that's part of what makes it unrealistic.
 
@duplode I think virtually everyone on Meta agrees that our policies need to take the larger community into account. Curators will certainly argue that the best way to benefit everyone in the long run is to have quality content that comes up easily when searching. That's part of the reason we don't delete duplicates, for instance, and I've never seen anyone argue against that policy because we understand the benefits.
 
12:10 AM
The overall tone of the worst attacks on us by staff has always been more hostile than the worst attacks in the other direction (or at least the worst of those that've been allowed to stand), and we've got more to lose in every hostile interaction, but it's only the impact of our mostly civil critical feedback that ever seems to get given any moral weight by the company. I resent that.
14
 
@duplode Curators also argue that (at least to some degree) the needs of experts who know what they're doing need to be met so they'll stay and answer questions. That's why we have moderation in the first place: to try to sift out the bad stuff.
@duplode And I think all this is really what's so galling. The community is built the way it is to try to maximize the benefit to the public at large. And sure, that's a difficult problem, and sure, there's lots of people having trouble learning about new topics. But SO was incredibly successful at seeding a knowledge base the way it set out to. To simply trash that by asserting we're mean and uncaring is to ignore the complexity of the problem.
That's why Atwood is so admired, too. He has always acknowledged the enormous complexity of the problem, praised the community for the good contributions they've made, and when he advocated for changes, he always defended it by explaining why he was so confident it would actually improve things. Even if he was wrong, you always knew he was trying to make things better, and the community knew he was watching out for them, not sneering at them as villains keeping people from getting help.
(And if any SO employees are inclined to argue you're not "sneering at us as villains keeping people from getting help," I'll just remind you that the basis of your argument is that how you make people feel is more important than your intentions. And that's exactly how you're making us feel. Although I'd argue it's actually what your writings say, too.)
 
@jpmc26 Personally, I don't feel vilified, or that my contributions are being trashed, but I kinda feel that's not the key point here.
Regardless of where one stands with respect to the welcomingness drive, I guess we can all agree that SO, in between all the false starts, hasn't managed to galvanise the community towards any goal.
This, I guess, is the direction problem Makoto has been posting about lately.
 
12:35 AM
Makoto describes an SO similar to the design I described a few messages ago in his post. SO's treatment of its users during the "welcoming" push appear to be in contradiction to those values, but they have made no explicit statement about abandoning them. I suspect it's more this contradiction that he has been talking about.
E.g., "I once believed that I was helping the site out, only to be referred to as some kind of 'aristocrat' who would flog those in need of help with scorpions."
Atwood captured it rather nicely in a comment on that post:
If the solution to "beginners are not welcome" ends up being "experts are not welcome" then it is game over. I resisted it for years, too, but a separate, beginner focused stack overflow (with beginner oriented rules, and special beginner tooling) feels inevitable to me at this point if the site wants to survive. — Jeff Atwood Jun 26 at 8:34
I've considered if it would be more effective and efficient, given the sheer quantity of LQ questions we get these days, to instead try to create a separate venue for curation, or something that allows us to translate content to a curation area or mark it as canonical or what have you and then adjust rules on the normal site. I guess that's what Documentation was supposed to be, but it was built in a way that didn't make that segregation clear or provide any reasonable means of enforcing it.
But SO won't come out and do that. It just wants to say, "You're mean, you're the problem, and we are going to make the world a better place by being so much nicer!" They don't seem to actually be trying to solve any problems that their active users care about. They're not trying to build things that will satisfy both sites of their user base.
3
Not being nice enough is not the world's biggest problem. People starving or dying of contaminated water in Africa aren't worrying about people being nice. People in China are doing a lot better because of industrialization in spite of a tyrannical government. Limited resources and the effective use of them is the biggest problem we face, in every field you can imagine. If SO really wants to help more people, they need to work on finding ways to make the process of helping more efficient.
 
@jpmc26 With respect to Documentation, there is an answer by Jon Ericson that strongly hints at what you say: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/343699/2751851
 
I want to highlight this:
2 hours ago, by Script47
The reason why I think reprex was an exception was because - with all due respect to the rest of the employees - Shog was handling it.
That's the problem, in a nutshell.
I love to go up in the mountains and walk through the woods. I've spent lots of time there, have a good sense of direction and sure footing; I know how to look for mushrooms and wild flowers, how to be quiet and watch the wildlife. No matter how often I visit, I learn something new. It is peaceful; it restores my soul. And generally, I feel the same way on meta.
But sometimes I take folks with me into the mountains, and they're uncomfortable. They have trouble keeping their footing; they're worried about encountering bears, or vagrants; they're afraid they might get lost. The smell of molding pine needles does nothing for them, they look past the mushrooms and step on the flowers without realizing it, they're noisy and on edge the entire time.
They're happy only when we finally depart; nothing I can say to them will make them see the beauty that I do, and it is cruel of me to ask them to be there any longer than they can tolerate.
And I'm sympathetic because... There are times when I feel this way. When I visit a city like New York, the noise deafens me, I can't see the horizon, cars don't slow down, there are people everywhere all the time. My heart quickens and I walk in constant fear; folks try to point out beautiful buildings, they talk about amazing shows or chances to meet interesting people, but I'm too focused on controlling my breathing so that I don't collapse.
In spite of all the opportunities that surround me, I learn nothing and return exhausted and shaken.
This is what meta is like for many people: a place of fear, of visceral terror that supplants any rationale thought and obliterates any perception of beauty. Much as we might enjoy it, we can't show them the wildflowers or introduce them to the interesting people there; it is as cruel to even ask them to stay as it is to keep me in NYC or others in the mountain forests.
2
I wish it wasn't so. I wish I could share what delights me, share that feeling of hope and peace, of learning new things and seizing new opportunities. But I've spent years trying and failing, again and again and have nothing to show for it; perhaps less than nothing.
It breaks my heart to say this; I've never seen another company, another site with anything like meta; the best attempts elsewhere are like window planter geraniums to our forest in bloom.
2
But it has been ten years, a long era on the Internet, and nothing lasts forever.
The world is changing. We don't have to change with it, but we can't stop it.
2
 
12:52 AM
So... basically what you're saying is that the company has decided to blast the mountains to dust and build an implausible domed city in their place.
2
 
I have no idea what the plans are.
 
@Shog9 You know, I don't think that's it. That's not what's going on here. SO users can handle change. Even changes we disagree with, we can learn to work with given time. We're not just talking about change. We're talking about the abandonment of SO's purpose: to be a place when knowledge is not just given, but curated to be found later.
The user base wouldn't be this upset at a few changes they disagree with.
Consider MCVE. I opposed it rather vehemently, both as "reprex" and as "MRE." In the end, though, I decided MRE wasn't intolerable even though I disagreed with it.
And now it's past. I'm over it. The rest of the community is, too, having either agreed it was a good idea (which most do) or having accepted it (for the minority like me).
 
Look around you: how many people are just irate with their own government right now, assuming all of the idiocy is part of some nefarious plan, some grand conspiracy... But it's emergent behavior, the combined effects of countless people all working toward some local optimum without regard for the effect it has on others'. Or...
 
It wasn't a community breaking change. What started with the welcoming push and is advancing further as time passes is, and that's why the community is up in arms over it.
 
Hanlon's razor is an aphorism expressed in various ways, including: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."An eponymous law, probably named after a Robert J. Hanlon, it is a philosophical razor which suggests a way of eliminating unlikely explanations for human behavior. == Origin == Inspired by Occam's razor, the aphorism became known in this form and under this name by the Jargon File, a glossary of computer programmer slang. Later that same year, the Jargon File editors noted lack of knowledge about the term's derivation and the existence of a sim...
To the extent that SO, Inc. has a plan, it's all there in Sara's last blog post.
And... It took an awful long time to get to that.
 
1:01 AM
@Shog9 Huh? Why did it take so long? I knew this is where we were going from day 1 of "Welcoming." It's the obvious direction when you realize it's part of a larger social push in America right now. (Which isn't a "conspiracy," per say, but just a bunch of people advancing their ideas.)
 
Not saying we're incompetent, but... We've been really bad at working together, as an organization, for a long time now.
If it looks like we're hiding something... Well, we're probably trying to hide that, but not doing too good a job there either.
So, that's the first step: getting our shit together so that we can accomplish anything without it devolving into months and months of infighting and rewriting.
2
Then we can start in on the stuff that Sara lays out: low-hanging fruit, stuff like guidance for new users that folks have been begging for for years, the closing system that we mostly abandoned years ago, the you name it that we said we'd work on back in '15 and then... Didn't.
And... This is the hard bit when it comes to meta: we can't keep going to meta and saying "ok, THIS TIME we're serious" - because who is left to believe it? What's the point of grand announcements, polls, feature solicitation when nobody trusts you to accomplish any of it? So many years of talking, with nothing to show for it; maybe less than nothing.
2
Yes, look where all this talking got us... Either we get busy building stuff or there's nothing left to say. So best stop talking and start building.
 
@TylerH In no uncertain terms, the .015% of the Stack Overflow community that is on Meta does not speak on behalf of the entire community. They speak on behalf of themselves, and we are listening, but this is not the only place we are listening to.
4
 
p/
 
@Shog9 isn't the meta experience for employees similar to that of new users on the main? Meaning, they just don't know how it works because they haven't used it before therefore what is normal criticism is interpreted as "abuse"?
 
@Script47 if it isn't identical, it's at least a paternal twin
and why should it be different? The systems themselves are nearly the same.
 
1:15 AM
So wouldn't the advice be the same to the employees as the new users? Get to know the system and how it works and it all won't seem so bad.
 
Well, how's that been working out on Main? Again, I'll refer you to Sara's blog post:
> This problem is on us and it’s because of how we designed the question asking and closing process.
 
I guess, that's a case of informing users of our standards better?
 
Sure, or providing something that is a bit more effective than continually trying and failing to hammer round pegs into square holes.
 
I honestly don't think this will ever get better.
 
user3956566
@KevinB it will trust me. I can see it now. It's coming to a head.
 
user3956566
1:19 AM
People will be up in arms, but it will die down when they realise where they stand.
 
how? we'll just repeatedly get told we're only 0.115%
 
user3956566
The hysteria over it won't be tolerated for much longer
 
user3956566
it's burning people out
 
@Shog9 So my point is that (M)SO is not a hostile environment, rather, it is a misunderstood environment, no?
 
user3956566
@KevinB meaning there's a bunch of people who do want changes. Actually a lot of what we all want is aligned, there's just too much bickering over the details
 
1:20 AM
@Script47 does it matter? You can tell me that NYC isn't really a hellscape all you want, and plenty of folks have - my heartrate still skyrockets the minute I step off a plane there.
 
user3956566
everyone wants a quality site. Most of us don't want the drama and are aiming to stop it
 
@Shog9 IMHO, claiming the most active users of the site have created a hostile environment - even for the staff - is a lot worse than new users/employees have misunderstood how the sites work.

Do you see the subtle distinction?
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user3956566
@Script47 it's the sheer pile on. There's often snarky comments and people roll with it and get carried away. There's no need for 10 people to say the same thing in a comment. You haven't experienced it.
 
it's just the implications of it all. so if we're only 0.015% of the feedback you're listening to... where's the rest coming from? the thousands of people who come in, dump a garbage question and leave on a daily basis? the people answering obvious duplicates day in day out, refusing to use the tools in front of them? twitter? reddit?
4
 
@Script47 the entire purpose of meta is to allow folks to talk to one another. If a non-trivial number of people can't or won't, then it has failed in that purpose.
 
user3956566
1:23 AM
@KevinB they're doing a lot of research behind the scenes.
 
to be clear, i'm in favor of a lot of the changes coming down the pipe, it's not at all about that
 
user3956566
There's a lot of people who do not participate on meta who participate on main and some of them communicate with SO.
 
@Shog9 can't or won't because they can't deal with the responses to their discussions cannot really be helped, and that, I gather is the crux of this issue.
@YvetteColomb Yes, I have and yes, there is a need, it shows how strongly how people feel and why shouldn't be allowed to put their own opinion across?
 
@Script47 I feel the concerns are sometimes different. "You see, sometimes people will make a huge fuss because you added a few emoji to a post, and it will get massively upvoted, but in time you'll get the hang of it" doesn't seem entirely analogous to what we say to people in the main site.
 
and even then that's not the experience we want of new users on the main site either.
 
user3956566
1:25 AM
@Script47 what we're saying, is the way meta works is not actually helping to get things done. People who are delivering change are finding it soul destroying and it's obvious why to most people. There seems to be a small (compared to the site) group of people who won't try to see what it is that is overly stressful
 
@Script47 look, recent studies have shown that being around trees is really, really good for people. I think lots more people should come hiking with me in the hills behind my house. But some of them are all tetchy because they're afraid of getting chopped up by an axe-wielding vagrant, even though that only happened that one time and statistically is super unlikely to happen to them. They're still not gonna do it, and I can't browbeat them into it.
 
user3956566
@Script47 there's way to go about it. Opinions are like hats we all (should) have one. The opinions are reflected in votes.
 
user3956566
@KevinB exactly
 
I just think it's quite a bit unhelpful to constantly point out the obvious in the ways that it has been in the past few years. It doesn't help. It doesn't make the people who are the problem change, and it pushes away those who aren't the problem.
 
user3956566
Due to the lack of coordinated communication from SO, we've all been left to guess. And partial information is great for feeding fears. Now that SO has lost the good faith of the meta regulars it's hard going for the team to shore up support for the changes they are making. And they ARE making changes. In fact this is the most supported I've felt as a user on the site - 8 years.
 
1:29 AM
just fix it
clearly you don't need our opinion anyway
 
user3956566
the meta community has made their opinion clear and SO is taking it on board. Don't forget I am also one of the meta community.
 
@YvetteColomb Where do you see these changes being made? I'm not being sarcastic, I genuinely don't see 'em. Is there something the mods know that the rest of us don't?
 
user3956566
If SO Inc chooses to make its own directives, people don't have to like it, but they have to accept it
 
user3956566
@Script47 unfortunately they've gone at it from the outside in, in an attempt to improve the quality that lands on the site. From my reckoning they will be addressing how the site works - curating content next @SaraChipps is this correct?
 
@YvetteColomb has this been communicated anywhere?
 
1:32 AM
that's what the post says
 
@YvetteColomb That is not as simple as you make it sound considering that SO has made community feedback a pillar for much of its lifetime.
 
@Shog9 what are chances of getting a response to this? meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/387599/…
 
user3956566
@Script47 we have a lot of chat in our mod chatroom and I'm not able to discuss that under the mod agreements. We are also having live chats with the team. I want the team to step up and say what they're planning
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 exactly! and that's the crux if the problem. We (as a community) have less power. We have some sway, but basically it's no longer a people run site. And that's the lump of coal we need to swallow.
 
But that's the problem, everything is kept so hush hush and all we get presented with is things that get removed/changed sporadically and then we are assured that it'll be fine? Does that make any sense?
 
1:34 AM
well, yes
 
@KevinB we do though. I mean... This welcoming thing is case in point: the need for it was manifest on meta years before anyone on Twitter gave a shit. We still didn't listen, and I'd put money on that being because we assumed it was just a few hundred malcontents vs. the thousands of folks who felt similarly but didn't speak up.
That was the vibe in '14, and... It's probably the worst thing we could've done.
If our plan now is to take what folks are saying - on meta, twitter, the rolling survey we're running, etc. - and instead of just assuming it's a few people try to actually gauge how many people are affected... That's a big step up.
 
user3956566
Honestly it has only truly hit home for me today.. and it's actually a relief. There needs to be a meta post. I'm am reluctant to post one, because there would be so much feedback it's hard to handle it all
 
user3956566
@Script47 ofc! and that is the problem. I've asked for a blog or post and I think there will be one.
 
user3956566
@Shog9 I actively and aggressively complained about meta for years! and to Shog. I hated it and still can at times, but honestly my security in my relationships in the community have made me more comfortable.
 
user3956566
It kinda annoyed me that it took twitter to create a fuss. It was like "hey I already said that, got boo'ed off stage and rage quite 10 times over that!"
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1:36 AM
@Script47 I donno. I kinda agree with George's answer. Meta was a hack in '09 to try & do everything, maybe it's time we started building or buying dedicated tooling for some stuff? Or... Even just using MSE more and letting other sites have a wee bit of say in how things are built?
 
i mean, that's another one of those areas where i feel like making it a blog post and bringing it to meta caused more division than it helped.
 
user3956566
yeh that wasn't handled that well hey
 
user3956566
but we live and learn. People need to stop making snide remarks about it. It's getting old
 
user3956566
I mean in meta comments
 
yeah, dammit - snide remarks are what twitter is for
 
user3956566
1:41 AM
lol yeh I left twitter. Dare I say I prefer drum roll facebook! hahaha I was well aware of fb's privacy issues long before it hit the news. In fact did some research on it. Which is why I'm extremely paranoid on the site and most others I visit
 
twitter is the NYC of social media: loud, gawdy without substance, full of itself, centered around Trump but likes to pretend it isn't.
We should... try to be better. But I feel like lately we haven't. Comments are a big part of that, I think: encourages short pithy replies instead of thoughtful responses.
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user3956566
@Shog9 hahahaha too true!
 
the lack thereof however... encourages silence
 
user3956566
@Shog9 yeh, you and I have been the A.C.E.T (anti comment establishment team) for a few years now
 
user3956566
@KevinB the lack of?
 
1:47 AM
Meg's pretty gung-ho about doing something better with comments. Hoping we can get some dev resources there at some point.
 
tldr, just a thing i hate about the blog. i feel like i can't express my opinion there, and rarely have the patience to actually write out what to me would be an acceptable question or answer.
 
user3956566
good. I'd really like to see easier changes on removing low qual content off the site
 
user3956566
@KevinB it takes energy doesn't it?
 
well, yes, i've got more than 2k of them
 
user3956566
:/
 
1:49 AM
I was just a lot more enthusiastic about it years ago
That stopped when I stopped benefitting from it, i reached a point where answering questions no longer resulted in me learning
 
user3956566
it certainly has changed
 
user3956566
@KevinB I understand that. I learnt Android answering questions
 
@Shog9 You are talking like this is all just about public image, but that is not what I see when I read all these blog posts and staff answers. What I see is the rejection of telling people unpleasant truths, like the idea that there's something wrong with telling people to use a debugger instead of printing out every line with variable values as its executing: jlericson.com/2018/03/23/race_to_1k_6.html
The welcoming push is vastly more extreme than, "Be a bit nicer," or "We want people to realize our community is not a bunch of monsters."
 
It's things they need to be told, but maybe the message saying it doesn't need a name and an avatar attached to it.
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 yep that does feel ball line. People need to be able to accept criticism. It should be ok to suggest learning about debugging, it just needs to be worded nicely. Not "go learn how to debug you mug" - more " you would benefit from learning how to use your debugger"
 
1:55 AM
@YvetteColomb The comments in question were of the latter variety. You can see them in the blog post. Also, I don't know what "ball line," means.
 
user3956566
@KevinB yep. as it is there will always be people posting bad questions and questions as answers. There's no way to fool proof a site of this size.
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 well there's nothing wrong with those
 
@YvetteColomb Ericson called them "condescending."
 
user3956566
oh ball line means not clearly one side or another
 
Right, because they are condescending, to some people
Would it be less so if they were being told that in a less public place?
 
user3956566
1:56 AM
@jpmc26 if worded with some degree of empathy there should be no problem imo
 
@KevinB They're not condescending. They are just possible to take badly because they're telling you the approach is wrong.
 
it's subjective.
 
@YvetteColomb I shouldn't need to lace every comment I make with flowery words of encouragement. That is unreasonable.
 
user3956566
@KevinB def being in public makes taking criticism harder
 
you don't have to, you don't even have to change how you leave comments
i didn't. all i did was not leave unnecessary ones.
 
user3956566
1:57 AM
@jpmc26 just pad it with a few choice words. "you could benefit from bla bla" simple
 
If it's a post that is unlikely to be helped by my leaving a comment... i mightaswell just downvote and move on
 
user3956566
exactly the biggest mistake people make is being drawn into arguments with people. State your case and walk away
 
@YvetteColomb No. Not when someone may be risking their application's security and a full production disk. Which is exactly what the comment was pointing out.
 
user3956566
@KevinB same. I close and move on. There's reasons for the closure in the banner
 
you've gotta choose your battles
 
1:59 AM
Literally, this is the comment Ericson called condescending:
 
the 20kth comment saying your php mysql shtuff is sql injectable is soooooooo useless.
 
> If you did this in production as you suggest you’d have security issues and several MB of logs for every request. Check out byebug for debugging in dev, and NewRelic or Honeybadger for handling exceptions in production.
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 state it and walk away. Honestly, if people don't want to hear these things, there's not much we can do. It's worse when it's clients rolling eyes hella stressful hey
 
let them make their own mistakes.
 
@YvetteColomb The person only left one comment. Ericson still called it condescending.
 
user3956566
2:00 AM
@jpmc26 well I disagree with him and we are allowed. don't forget it's the mods and automatic community flags that moderate the site, not Jon
 
user3956566
@KevinB that's my point on meta
 
@YvetteColomb So I'm not allowed to be concerned about SO employees taking extreme positions? And not allowed to consider those positions when examining what "welcoming" is about?
 
yeah, not so much
it's far easier to just take it with a grain of salt and continue normally than try to change them.
if you cross a line, they'll tell ya
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 yeh you are. But there's a limit to what will be achieved. Jon is a good bloke, he has his opinions, but he won't lose his job. We're all human and none of us are perfect. That's the thing. Some people are better at touching the heart of a matter, some people miss the mark
 
user3956566
@KevinB exactly
 
2:02 AM
So basically, turn the cheek and then turn the other one? Yeah, no, that doesn't seem fair or "welcoming" the us.
 
i mean, it's that or be frustrated
 
user3956566
No one ever said that @Script47.
 
@YvetteColomb @KevinB seems to agree with that summary.
 
user3956566
There's so many posts/blogs comments we could be here for months in a court of law examining it all. What I'm saying is don't put too much heed in everything
 
user3956566
@Script47 yes and no. We're essentially saying don't take any of it too seriously. Do the right thing. That's all that matters. I don't pay attention to absolutely everything/ I'd be tied in knots
 
2:04 AM
i mean, i don't often agree with yvette, but i can be respectful.
 
user3956566
if that makes sense.
 
user3956566
@KevinB lol strange times
 
@YvetteColomb I started this by saying that "welcoming" is vastly more extreme than just be nicer. You disagreed with me by claiming that the example comment in question was border line. I demonstrated that it was clearly not by responding to each of your objections, to the point that you agreed with my evaluation. My entire point was that influential SO employees are pushing something that hinders our ability to have quality content by giving people the info they need to hear.
Do you have a refutation for that claim or not? Because I don't know what you're arguing at this point.
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 oh I didn't read the comment when I first replied
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 Jon isn't always that vocal and I have not seen or heard from him for a while. There's some new people showing up. I'm hopeful
 
user3956566
2:06 AM
we are not going to like or resonate with everyone
 
@Shog9 That's all well and good. They're not obligated to take a walk in the woods. We might like it if they did, but nobody is going to force them. It ceases to be okay, though, when they declare that the very existence of the woods is something that they cannot "in good conscience" tolerate and that therefore all the woods must be chopped down.
 
the way the welcoming thing was handled was clearly a misstep, but a lot of the reasons behind it happening are real problems that need to be solved... i think most everyone is in agreement with the first part of that, and the latter of course depends on your opinion on what is and isn't an acceptable comment.
 
@YvetteColomb I don't expect to, but I expect to be able to warn people of problems they're creating without having to waste time padding my criticism with useless language to soften the blow. In particular, that can often detract from the definiteness of how bad an idea what they want to do is.
 
@MarkAmery That happens too though.
And... Sometimes it just burns down.
 
Lots of bad things happen. Doesn't make them into things we should quietly accept.
 
user3956566
2:08 AM
@jpmc26 yeh, but that's life. It frustrates the hell out of me too. My own children will attempt to cherry pick my word choice in a deliberate attempt to miss my message. This is something that is common in our society. We do have to be careful how we talk. It just is This site is more a reflection of wider society
 
You don't have to accept it. The critical question is whether you can change it.
I tried. And failed. And now I gotta live with that.
 
user3956566
yep, working on the basis that I have to accept what I cannot change
 
user3956566
@Shog9 exactly, me too! we were both on a mission with this site and now I realise I have to accept the change. I cannot stop it
 
user3956566
@JeremyBanks g'day ;)
 
user3956566
it's more a position of - well this is how it is now - can I live with it. It's a question each person needs to ask themselves
 
2:11 AM
@YvetteColomb You realize Jeremy is on a 153 day chat ban, right?
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 lol no I didn't! sorry Jeremy
 
@YvetteColomb This kinda demonstrates my point. How welcome do you think he felt reading that when he is on a ban?
 
user3956566
well yes, and it was an attempt from me to be friendly. so it's easy to misinterpret things. Also there's so much cultural variation
 
Exactly, you didn't know. There's no way in the world that we can possibly know how to word something to avoid hurting someone's feelings.
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 ofc and we need to give everyone a break and assume good will
 
2:13 AM
I mean... if that's the point you're making, we're in agreement moreso than you might think
 
@YvetteColomb Okay, but SO hasn't done that for us. Yet they get to demand we do it for everyone else?
 
user3956566
@KevinB ofc. we probably always have been. we're all examining the same elephant and want the same thing, it's just huge
 
@Shog9 Indeed. I suspect the answer to that is "no", sadly, but it seems worth trying.
 
@YvetteColomb Except we don't. I don't want a system where I have to line every post I write with saccharine. In fact, I really hate when people do it to stuff they write toward me.
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 well the welcoming blog didn't come across right. People felt thrown under the bus. I'm not sure it will be reconciled, the rift is so great. The best advice is for our regulars not to take it personally. I didn't. My comments get flagged too
 
user3956566
2:16 AM
@jpmc26 I'm referring more to wanting quality content. Obtaining that is the conundrum
2
 
@YvetteColomb That's my point. That's why I'm bringing up Ericson's post and looking at Sara's reaction to criticism. It's not just that it "didn't come across right." It's that they actually have values that extreme. We clearly don't all want the same thing.
 
that's the thing
you don't have to
don't if you don't want to
 
user3956566
my suggestion would be - try and focus on the site itself. The programming aspect.
 
@jpmc26 I don't want that either. Putting Jon's post aside for a moment, though, I feel it is more often than not a question of taking away rather than padding.
 
user3956566
that sounds weak, but meta is tearing people apart
 
user3956566
2:19 AM
@duplode can you give an example?
 
@YvetteColomb No, SO's attitude is. To dismiss the conflict on Meta as unfounded is to ignore the underlying causes of it.
 
Focus on the post, make it actionable, stay objective.
 
Unless you're receiving mod messages telling you you're crossing a line... noone is forcing you to change your behavior
3
 
@jpmc26 some people do like that though. I don't understand it; it feels patronizing. But, different strokes and all. IME, the problems of communication on the 'Net are rarely a lack of sugar, but an over-willingness to talk when there's nothing to be said. To assume others' motivations, or feelings, or goals, and then fight them over it, rather than just saying what's needed... Or nothing at all.
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 well that's the point I'm making here. I can see they're putting resources into making changes on main. Meta is an issue and that will not be an easy fix
 
2:20 AM
My concern is that we need Meta to survive to have any assurance that contributions to SO main will survive, @YvetteColomb
 
meh
 
@YvetteColomb I feel this Meta answer of mine, though it is about meta-advice, is representative of the general attitude: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/365930/2751851
 
@YvetteColomb I think you're fundamentally misidentifying the problem when you say Meta is the problem. The conflict on Meta arises from the underlying problem. It doesn't just go away if we all start ignoring it.
 
user3956566
@duplode yep, sometimes less is more. People have an inherent difficulty accepting criticism from strangers in a public place. That's the crux of the problem.. then people getting frustrated with quality, tired of pussy footing around and burnt out
 
Sorry Yvette, this last ping was for @jpmc26
 
user3956566
2:21 AM
@MarkAmery def I agree. We need a way to be a community and give feedback. we do need less conflict
 
user3956566
@duplode nw :)
 
@YvetteColomb And yup, in my experience less is more tends to work pretty well.
 
We saw the whole of IPS knocked off HNQ over one politically incorrect post. We've had talk of critical comments being nuked en masse for being unfriendly. The core ideal of the site - focused on creating a high-quality library of Q&A of value to future searchers - seems to be one that the majority of the staff no longer believe in. Put together, that's a worrying set of circumstances.
5
 
user3956566
@duplode oh yes, I upvoted that. It's a shame the small things like that cannot be more prominent
 
SO will survive without the 0.015% even if they all left. there's plenty of people every year, every day, jumping on the bandwagon, turning into people who want to help others on SO. we just need to stop scaring them away, and if pushing 0.015% aside does that... it sucks for us, but SO will still be here until something replaces it.
 
2:22 AM
@duplode What do you do when the post is unsalvageable and contains something dangerous or outright wrong?
 
And now if they sleepwalk into transforming the site in some new direction - with god knows what happening to the existing content - there's no longer any means for us to protest
 
user3956566
@MarkAmery well we had an issue on Pets.se about a person abusing a kitten
 
this whole... SO won't survive without us angle is laughable
 
user3956566
that's what I've realised
 
@KevinB It will survive, but so do Yahoo answers and Quora. The question is what it will become. Will it still be something useful? Is the idea that it becomes a dumpster fire of terrible content laughable?
 
2:24 AM
At this point, I am seriously unsure if it's worth my time to contribute to SO again. Just a few weeks ago I wrote meta.stackoverflow.com/a/386704/1709587 explaining why I was happy to do so despite disagreeing with so many company decisions - that as long as the content is creative commons and there's a strong community, we can always find a way to replatform it in the event of the company going mad in some way
 
if it still helps people, it will be serving it's purpose
 
But now the whole "strong community" bit is looking like it's on its deathbed
 
@jpmc26 Point it out clearly and directly, aiming for a neutral tone.
 
@KevinB What do you think SO's purpose is?
 
it's been better at being a "help desk" than a repository of useful questions for years anyway
 
user3956566
2:25 AM
@MarkAmery that's a top answer
 
SO Docs proved that
 
@duplode How do you say, "This is wrong. [explanation and evidence]" in a neutral tone? That's going to be hurtful no matter how you say it.
 
And so I have to seriously ask myself what the site is going to look like in a few years, whether we still have a realistic exit path, and whether my contributions will have lasting value any more. Which is sad, and the reason I am not asleep right now.
 
user3956566
@MarkAmery well it's the fact that the active meta user (all of us in here right now) are a teeny weeny minority.. it's kinda a blow to how important we are to the site. Many contributors on main do not participate on meta and apparently there's enough of them to keep the site going
 
@jpmc26 "This will not work because [explanation and evidence]. I suggest [actionable advice]."
 
2:28 AM
there's far more developers out there who just want to "play the game" and don't care about all this meta shtuff and changes coming down the pipe. far more than there are of people who genuinely care about quality
 
Criticism will likely sting. I can try to make it sting less, while still saying what must be said.
 
@KevinB So you think it's already like Quora and Yahoo Answers?
 
yes
i think it's been that way for 8 years
 
user3956566
too many people are wanting a quick answer without doing the research. I rarely ask now, as I know how to find my own answers
 
@KevinB Do you recognize that SO does not see itself that way? Nor do most of the people who contribute on any kind of regular basis? And that most of those people do not want to see SO be that?
 
user3956566
2:30 AM
if it was kept for unique questions - ones that haven't already been asked - that are good quality, it would be awesome
 
@jpmc26 For the record, I also find some of that post by Jon to be a bit off (my personal gripe is with the part about quoting people in replies).
 
SO, the company?
SO the community?
or what
 
I submit that it's both.
 
I don't know what SO the company views itself as
SO the community is vastly diverse, the small meta community we have would mostly disagree with that
 
Do you recognize that it was founded under the promise that it would not be that? And that many of its users found that attractive?
 
2:31 AM
Yes. but do you realize how SO actually works?
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 money money money
 
someone asks a question... someone answers it... rarely ever do questions get dupe closed, rarely ever do questions get closed at all,
the simplest of questions, that have been asked thousands of times, are asked thousands of times more, and answered
 
@jpmc26 As Yvette noted, though, Jon is just one person, who at the time was trying (and not necessarily succeeding) to put himself in the shoes of a new user. I'm not inclined to read too much into it.
 
Yes, I do. Because I look for questions to answer and I see mostly crap from people who haven't grasped the fundamentals yet and would rather have the answer handed to them than look it up.
@duplode He defended it to me. A month or two ago. I would have never seen it if he hadn't linked me to it.
 
question and answer scores are useless now.
maybe they always have been
 
user3956566
2:33 AM
@duplode and some people are just better at reaching people than others
 
they're popularity
not quality
 
user3956566
@KevinB oh you'd be surprised. that's me seeing the dirty end of the site
 
@KevinB Do you recognize that there's a difference between, "SO is not succeeding at its goals," and, "I don't want SO to even try to succeed at its goals."?
 
Yes, but i've also seen a loosening of those goals, almost linearly, over the past 5-6 years
 
user3956566
@KevinB and that's the way of the internet. sensationalism. click bait. short attention spans
 
2:36 AM
i started out moderating the jquery forums
 
user3956566
are you showing your age? :D
 
it was a lot of fun at first, helping people, boosting my post counts, being a moderator, but... eventually, it got to the point where i realized everythign was a duplicate.
 
So, that's kinda the crux, right? For all the work we do here - you, me, the mods, random reviewers - we're clearly not keeping up. Quality is slipping. I think we all know that.
 
so i moved to SO, and alas, a huge supply of new questions to answer!
 
@KevinB I mean, if you want to give up, that's your prerogative. That doesn't mean everyone else should shut up and stop pointing out the issue.
 
2:36 AM
and then... after a year or two, i'm right back in the same position
but these new, enthusaistic users who havne't seen that yet, are more than happy to pick up the torch and answer these new and exciting (to them) questions.
 
user3956566
@Shog9 we need the ability to shut down posts quickly we've only asked for that a billion times
 
@Shog9 No, the crux is quality is slipping (or has taken a nose dive off the cliff, depending on your perspective) and SO is talking about how mean we are for trying to do anything about it, rather than admitting it and trying to help us do something about it.
 
user3956566
@KevinB exactly. I ended up moderating, cos I would browse for questions to answer and so many of them were lousy I'd get side tracked into closing them and forget my original intention
 
i used to think that, but... now not so much. why not let the next generation come in and answer them, learn the same way i did.
it's a lot less frustrating for me personally
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 you do make a valid point. I think it's the pile on that's overwhelming
 
2:39 AM
I kinda think Kevin's got it right here.
 
I have always had a different perspective on the quality slippage due to finding all my questions to answer via Google, not the front page
I've never seen the quality slip
 
user3956566
@KevinB actually that's what I've started to adopt. They're learning by it. The answerers too
 
But man... It'd be a real trick if we could figure out some way to do this without having to rebuild a forum from scratch every decade.
 
Google remarkably reliably surfaces the good stuff and hides the bad stuff
 
^
i can still find the good stuff
no matter how many cors doesn't work questions are posted.
 
2:40 AM
To anyone who isn't a serious user who watches the front page, all the crap just... doesn't really exist
 
@MarkAmery I've actually noticed a drop in the quality of what Google returns for me in the past year or two. It's been getting harder to find decent questions with decent answers.
 
no matter how many for loop closure problems are posted. doesn't matter, the good stuff is still there
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 same
 
user3956566
I have to be more persistent in my searches
 
you are a mod aftreall
 
2:41 AM
it varies for me. Google is great at pulling out metadata - so topics that get lots of votes tend to surface useful stuff. But that long tail that nobody votes on... It can be a bit of a mess.
 
for me it's mostly memorization
i know what the title of the post i'm looking for is
 
heh
 
user3956566
@KevinB true. there's an inherent notion that duplicates are bad. Maybe we should change that. The thing I don't like is unanswerable questions and bad answers. I'd love to see them taken care of more quickly
 
there's only maybe 3-4 dozen questions people ask these days
 
@Shog9 I apologize for not having any explicit examples on hand, but I don't believe the results that came up were particularly obscure.
 
2:42 AM
for a given tag anyway
 
user3956566
agree
 
Google has also been downranking SO posts, as well. It'll turn up other random crap first. Blog posts, Quora, who knows. Sometimes I'll see a whole page without any SO posts and have to add "stack overflow" or something to the search.
 
user3956566
it's only when there's an update in a framework that there will be some refreshing new questions. If you're not there when they're first asked, forget it
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 I've noticed that
 
Somebody pointed to this the other day; old Pekka suggestion, but sounds like just what we need right now:
138
Q: A SWAT team of nice II: temporarily show new questions only to designated "guide" users, allowing for fixing problems

Pekka 웃 tl;dr: Let's allow new users to request a temporary "pit stop" for their questions before they enter the race track - a mode where the question is visible only to a group of designated "guide" users who can provide assistance - or moderation, including downvoting/closing (it's not a free for a...

 
2:44 AM
the mentorship program?
i thought it was a good idea, but had zero interest in taking
 
@Shog9 I feel like that's just another version of Triage. I doubt it will be sustainable. People will get frustrated and stop using it.
 
user3956566
@Shog9 yep. which is a take on my suggestion, make the new posts visible to only selected users once they are down voted. So it takes them out of the mainstream and possibly those users can opt in to see these posts, perhaps by tag
 
That's why SO chose moderation in the first place: because people get sick of dealing with users who don't want to work for their answer or who are pretty much totally lost.
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 that's where we need to be able to knock them on their head. There could be a separate tab to see these types of posts. If no one wants to go there, no one needs to see them
 
user3956566
"downvoted new questions" tab
 
2:47 AM
@YvetteColomb I cannot think of a faster way to drive community growth down the tubes than for no one to see new users' questions, which is explicitly what SO the company is terrified of.
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 oh yes. I am aware of that. It
 
user3956566
oops. It is my fantasy site :D
 
@KevinB That's fair. As long as there are some people on either side willing to go for it, something can be achieved.
This particular sort of guidance isn't really meant to stop the influx of bad questions, anyway.
 
The problem with Triage is twofold:
1) it can't scale beyond the number of folks willing to review no matter how high the volume of questions gets
2) it only hides stuff from the homepage
 
user3956566
the problem with triage and helping new people shape questions is, it is exhausting and we are so restricted on what we can say.
 
2:52 AM
IOW, everything still ends up in Google and it chews up a lot of work. OTOH, it works pretty damn well as a gateway for the close queue, which would be in even worse shape without it.
 
As I see it, it is more about setting expectations, and providing a pathway to those who can appreciate guidance.
 
user3956566
agree
 
Imagine this: a question gets asked and just sorta sits there out of sight. Folks can find and answer or edit or guide if they go looking for it, but it doesn't show up to Google or the default tag views unless/until it gets votes, or edits, or some other signal that someone thinks it's worth showing off.
Less work for everyone, less stress for new askers, less crap in search results.
 
user3956566
then people who really cannot be bothered cry "foul and twitter!"
 
user3956566
@Shog9 I made that suggestion on meta years ago grinding teeth
 
2:58 AM
would that mean those questions would stop showing up on the home page? eh, i guess i could alter what i use as a homepage
 
@YvetteColomb yeah... So did Will, now that I think about it...
 
if it came down to it
 
...it's come up a lot...
 
@Shog9 So, something sorta like Pekka's proposal, but with fewer formalities and not opt-in for askers?
 
@duplode I donno. Maybe you can opt in. Maybe you have to opt out. That's the problem, right? Easy to spitball, but really we'd have to spend some serious time testing.
 

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