last day (41 days later) » 

9:02 PM
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A: We’re removing “Hot Meta Posts” from Stack Overflow's sidebar for now; moderators now fully control [featured]

Sara ChippsI’d like to add some context to the “why” we are doing it. Tim, kindly, wanted to shield me from ire, however, in taking this job I signed up for this. I'd like to come here, own my decision, and deliver this feedback. Stack Overflow Employees have panic attacks and nightmares when they know th...

 
I have trepidation with visiting meta and I explicitly signed up to do so as a Community moderator. If you look at my meta activity I literally walked away for years (reducing my participation to as close to zero as I could) in part because of the constant rush of negativity. I can't imagine how people feel that have to do it in exchange for a paycheck. Thanks for coming in and bringing this perspective. I hope we can redirect meta to a smaller scope that makes it more productive.
 
Thank you for your response Sara, and i'm sorry to hear people are indeed negatively impacted that way. However (and maybe i'm just missing the point here, if so I apologise) I fail to see the relation between the two. How does removing "Hot on Meta" change anything posted on here, or have an affect on CM's/staff having to come into here. Or be "less forced" to go to meta? "New" people will still find their way here as well, as there will still be a direct link on the main site to here. Just under "featured" now.
 
Good question, the psychological safety for employees is the reason for moving our communications to the blog from Meta. The hope is the "Featured on Meta" links will only be things that are super important and need more eyes. TBH the CMs fought pretty hard so we could keep that and make sure the Mods have the outlet they need. They felt strongly that if we removed it we would be taking away the tools that mods need to be successful.
 
"Stack Overflow Employees have panic attacks and nightmares when they know they will need to post something to Meta." As long as we remain polite and professional, we are not responsible for your feelings. Being able to remain psychologically healthy when receiving to community criticism (or support) is a necessary qualification for this job. At some point, you must accept responsibility for yourself, rather than demand others tailor every last word they utter to your personal difficulties.
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@jpmc26 I have not observed this to be a place where people are polite and professional.
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9:02 PM
I would like to extend my thanks for the CM's that fought for that, as I personally find it a very resourceful tool (sometimes it is just as simple as reading another funny burnination pun to brighten the day). And thank you again for taking your time to step out and providing us with your view/reasoning.
 
@SaraChipps And I have observed that when people cannot disagree civilly, that content is moderated. We all have to face criticism from those who disagree with us. When it crosses the line, we have a mechanism for dealing with that. It's still necessary to be able to remain composed and be able to deal with negative feedback. Hurt feelings are a normal and sometimes necessary component of resolving disagreements and also of learning. No place where people openly disagree and debate can be a "safe space."
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Perhaps the negativity is being properly moderated away but in looking at posts dealing with recent negative scores (this one, the ads one, etc.) I don't see anything othere than reasoned concerns reflecting SO's approach or implementation. I'm a web developer by trade and feedback on designs and tools are a consistent part of the job, the only major difference between a few clients/managers and Meta is obviously one of scale; but it still seems to be feedback on changes.
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user50049
@jpmc26 When crossing the line becomes something that happens all the time and its many people doing it, directed at you, all at once - that's a different story. Please allow for the perspective of being on the receiving end of a very negative and often emotionally-charged 1:many dynamic as being a little different than what you might imagine.
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@TimPost I've been there. Many times. I've never demanded anyone just stop talking. I've engaged with them, tried to better understand their perspective, and tried to change their minds. "Stop talking" is never an acceptable response just because you don't like what's being said. I'd be demanding for the complete removal of several Stack Exchange sites if that was my attitude.
@TimPost Furthermore, SO clearly doesn't care about the feelings of people who hold opinions conflicting with your sociopolitical views. If you expect them to grin and bear it, why can't you?
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@TimPost I suspect I've received more negative feedback to content of mine than any SO employee (perhaps with maybe one exception), and yet I still firmly believe everything that jpmc26 is saying. So as someone that doesn't need to imagine that type of experience, I would have to disagree.
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9:02 PM
@TimPost Lastly, if SO consistently receives negative feedback from their community, have you considered the possibility that you're doing something wrong? One of the major points I forgot to mention before is that I step back and reconsider the validity of my understanding. It isn't always; sometimes I have to change my mind. A lot of people consistently telling me I'm wrong usually indicates there's something I'm missing, even if I'm not wrong. If your community is consistently telling you you're getting it wrong, you should reevaluate your strategy instead of doubling down.
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@jpmc26 your insistence that the feedback is wrong is concerning. I'm not interested in a back and forth argument here, but I think starting from a place of acceptance and help is always appreciated. We consider that we are doing something wrong all the time! That's why we are here. If we didn't care we wouldn't be participating and we wouldn't be talking about what we're doing. We just need to draw a line somewhere and that is here.
 
Although I agree that most of the people here raise arguments with the best intentions, and keep the language appropriate I think you can't just say "Well don't be offended, because i'm not". People react in different ways, saying "necessary qualification for this job" is just naive. People who work behind the scenes who aren't hired for any public functions can find them selves in a situation where they have to read (a maybe for them overwhelming amount of) feedback.
Also don't forget that just because we don't see unprofessional comments, doesn't mean they arn't there. Those comments get flagged for deletion and need to be handled. Guess what? by actual people who need to make the call wether or not its appropriate (and this may be an elected mod, with no professional incentive or training behind dealing with this). They will still get read by a human who deals with those bad comments on a what may be daily basis. Not taking that into consideration is a bit of a one track approach, just because it fits a personal ideal.
 
@SaraChipps "...but I think starting from a place of acceptance and help is always appreciated." I did start there. I actually believed that SO was trying to create a place where people could disagree civilly. SO lost my trust with "Time to Take a Stand" and its utter refusal to adhere to its own policies on the matter. Since then, I've seen many examples of such contradictory attitudes. (I linked some above.) And this action only demonstrates further what I feared "welcoming" would be: a far beyond reasonable demand. That trust has to be earned again through action, not through demands.
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@SaraChipps thanks for owning up. And besides the downvotes I don't see any blatant negativity here, only (civilised) disagreement. So Meta doesn't need to be a hostile/negative place. I appreciate that you stand up for your employees, but I also understood you are new to this game of SO. Hence I wonder if you know all that has happened in the past, and how relations between SO and the angry Meta mob (as we are now depicted) were once in a good place. I hope you are willing to look into what caused this partum, objectively. Not only taking your employees words to be the sole truth.
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@remy_rm I think you misunderstood my point. I'm not saying don't be offended. On the contrary, be offended. Be upset. But be able to deal with those feelings. Humans are remarkable for their resilience, both physically and psychologically. We cannot discard all of civilization to protect people from diseases if their immune system is weak; so too we cannot discard all disagreement and debate to protect a psyche that has far lower resilience. There must be a balance of concerns; the old Be Nice policy was a pretty good one. Trying to shield SO employees from community criticism is not.
 
9:02 PM
@Luuklag this is purely my opinion, but the comments on this answer are fairly representative of the problem. 1. OP posts answer. 2. Commentor disagrees and tries to invalidate the perspective. 3. OP elaborates in comment. 4. Commentor disagrees and tries to invalidate the perspective. 5. A person comes in and says, "You know, there are other perspectives and they are valid." 6. Commentor continues to try to invalidate others perspectives ("win the argument") 7. OP gives up trying to share understanding and perspective.
In short: If you're spending your time trying to invalidate another person's perspective, then what is the incentive for them to participate?
 
@GeorgeStocker I think "invalidate another person's perspective" is just another term for "debate" or "try to change each others' minds with reasoning and evidence." The motivation for participating in such discussions is two fold: 1. To learn. To consider viewpoints you haven't. 2. To expose others to your viewpoint in hopes of changing their minds. Doing so would seem to be one of the main reasons Meta exists, as site policy discussions and giving feedback on site changes are explicitly on topic here.
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I've never successfully changed someone's mind by invalidating their perspective.
 
@GeorgeStocker thats more then likely a clash of culture we not often take into account. When I argue with co-workers/superiors I'm direct and show them how they are looking at it from the wrong angle. Something one could call invalidating a perspective. One might find it rude, but in our culture such directness is never ill-intended and even appreciated. We dont need to discuss things over and over. At some point if we cant win over the others we have to agree to disagree and let a manager make the final call, and face disgruntled co-workers. Thats what they are managers for, with the paychek
 
user3956566
It's exhausting. I have to pace myself on meta. There's this blatant refusal by some people to see the stress of it. I am stubborn enough to dig my feet in and ride out the storms. I'm determined to outlast the stress and see change.
 
Also in a place as cultural diverce as SO you can never do everyone right, thats domething you'd have to accept and learn to live with. If you cant do that you might find more fulfillment employed in a different position.
 
9:02 PM
@YvetteColomb Have you considered that perhaps they do see the stress of it, but that they have considered the nature of the problem and decided that it's not okay to put the burden of relieving it on other people? That allowing people to express their ideas about a problem is more important than trying to make it a pleasant experience for everyone?
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 what do you mean?
 
@YvetteColomb I mean that having disagreements and debating them is inherently stressful. Even when both sides are being polite and professional. However, the value of airing those disagreements and allowing many ideas to be presented and considered to arrive at better answers vastly outweighs the downsides of the stress involved. Look at successful marriages. They're not stress free; they last because the couple learns to handle that stress. Learning to manage and deal with that kind of stress is an intractable part of participating in disagreements. It's normal throughout human history.
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user3956566
@jpmc26 oh I see, yes that is true, but when it's such a large group of people it needs to be managed in a way that we can make headway. Currently there's a lot of banging heads against walls and we need to rectify that
 
@YvetteColomb I would suggest to you that the side that has decided that hearing that feedback is a problem is the one that needs to change its approach before any headway can be made. Consider also that there's a power differential as well, where all users can do is provide feedback and hope SO listens. Being open to hearing criticism is required to arrive at any kind of agreement. No one is opposed to trying to make things slightly more pleasant; we're opposed to discarding everything SO was built to do in an attempt to make sure no one feels bad.
 
@jpmc26 thats a gross oversimplification imo. Ofcourse a marriage isn't stress free. But a constant level of stress over, say 50%, isn't durable either. If that is how SO perceives Meta, we (the angry Meta mob), have at least something to blame ourselves for. Might it be out of frustration with thr choices SO made or not, a healthy relationship needs work from both ends.
 
9:02 PM
@Luuklag I would note that the rift between SO and its community only came about as a result of a headlong charge into the "welcoming" philosophy. Many supported the idea originally, but it has become a fracturing issue as it has been put into place and become increasingly extreme and increasingly derogatory toward the most active user base. What response could we possibly have other than to tell them, "This is terrible. We are not happy. Please listen to us."? That or leave, anyway.
 
user3956566
@Luuklag you last comment sums it up. There's changes in how the site runs, as it has evolved and changed its structure. Whether we (the users) like it or not, we have to accept it. At some point all the complaining is just no longer helpful, as we cannot change the fact that the company is now laying down directives and the community has no choice in some of these. That's what's driving me nuts. People don't have to like it, but we have to accept it and hounding on about it on meta is not going to change it and is now counter productive
 
@YvetteColomb It is not "counterproductive" to challenge policies that are detrimental to the goals of the community to which they apply. Nor is it counterproductive to continue providing evidence of the damage they're doing.
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 you're missing the point, we don't have a say. The company has changed the way they do things, they need to point that out clearly on meta. People won't like it, but it's the way it is.
 
@YvetteColomb You realize that you're essentially saying that there can no longer be a healthy relationship between users and the company and that they need to get divorced, right? Seeing as SO so heavily depends on its user base, it's no surprise they would be unwilling to announce that openly. It would put them out of business.
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 I know you didn't mean it, but that comment made me smile. before the edit. the divorce bit
 
9:02 PM
@YvetteColomb I meant it quite seriously. I just couldn't more find direct terms to say it in, so I resorted to analogy.
 
I honestly don't know where to begin with this completely hyperbolic answer... 'Stack Overflow Employees have panic attacks and nightmares when they know they will need to post something to Meta.' - Are you serious? Really? You're making it sound as though they get death threats or people follow them around hurling abuse at them, maybe I've missed it but majority of the time it's (harsh at times) criticism.
 
user3956566
@jpmc26 fwiw I've only just really come to realise this myself and it actually will save me energy. So I need to decide, do I still like the site and want to stay, can I accept these terms. For me it's a yes. I guess each user will need to make that choice
 
I mean... Yes, there's a lot of negativity... if you consider posts being downvoted and people having differing opinions negativity. If that's all it takes to get employees to stop communicating with the community... that's quite problematic. That's a problem that will always exist. You can embrace it, or ignore it. If you choose to ignore it, please also remove the venue.
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user3956566
@Script47 the mods see a lot of the community team and we've been aware of the stress they feel about meta for a long time. Which is why the mods help to take up the slack, as these are our friends and human beings. Just because you cannot see it, doesn't mean it's not real.
 
'This is outside of the CM team, who have been heroes and who I constantly see abused here.' Abused? In what way? Is it against the CoC? If so deal with them in the appropriate manner as is supposed to be done. 'The CMs feel this is something that can be remedied, and I believe them.' - Sure, we've been telling you what needs to be done, and honestly, you've acknowledged it too, you folks don't communicate anything and spring changes and when people are vocal you get offended. I can't even tell if you're being serious anymore.
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@YvetteColomb "stress" is a part of most jobs, let's not conflate "stress" with "abuse".
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user3956566
9:02 PM
@Script47 sara wrote a great blog post explaining it. I have to go right now. If you like I can link it to you when I get back
 
@YvetteColomb The blog post is not great. It's unreasonable. If you're in management and you create a policy that interferes with people getting their jobs done, you get criticized for it. That's okay. And if it's loud and vocal, that's okay, too, because maybe it needs to be to ensure that something about it gets done rather than the policy just moving forward anyway. If Sara can't handle heavy criticism from a few coworkers she knows very well, then it's clearly not our fault she can't handle ours.
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When I saw this answer I thought 'great, more context and some real details'. As I read through it though I came to agree with @Script47. This reasoning sounds pretty exaggerated. Maybe there are 1000 comments that the mods have already deleted and I cant see that contain death threats or something, but I kinda doubt it. Moreover, as I re-read this post it makes Tim Post's original post (thats a lot of post) sound duplicitous. Is it really because Meta is no longer what it was meant or is it because you don't like the content on meta? Sara makes it seem like the latter.
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@YvetteColomb I've read the post. I don't mind reading it again but I don't think it makes any compelling arguments regarding this to change my mind. Honestly, this comes across as an appeal to emotion and truth be told, as much as I might sympathize with the employees, I can't help but think that they bring it upon themselves (case in point, Tim's original post). Does that sound harsh? Eh, maybe. Does that mean we have to hide from it? No. Sometimes we all just need to hear the harsh truths, not just one side.
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Abstract demands for everyone else to suck it up are a refusal of responsibility.
 
I'm not going to downvote this because we got some actual honesty here; but considering the community response is to essentially rebuild the thing with bots and/or userscripts, a completely different decision needs to be made.
 
9:02 PM
This is starting to read a lot like abuse apologists discussions. Loads of weighing in how they don't see a problem, and that this is all just hyperbole, right? How about we assume good faith and step back and re-evaluate how we see the site and start thinking about how you might be missing that there is actually an abusive culture building here?
 
@MartijnPieters That has already been addressed. There is a fundamental difference between shutting down abusive behavior (which no one opposes) and telling people that there's something wrong with expressing their opinion on a policy or feature because it makes the people who like the idea feel bad. Quantity does not make the latter wrong, and that is explicitly the assertion of the blog post and this post.
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@SaraChipps I've always tried to help this community in my interactions….and I've come to know so many people that do the same, voluntarily ...I can tell you sincerely that it saddens me that say the you have not observed that people here are polite and professional; maybe you need to get to know thhe community better, and not let the reputation of so many great users be trashed because of the actions of a handful of people
 
@MartijnPieters Considering we have mods saying, "this is the way it is, you don't get a say in it, even talking about things you don't like is unacceptable because we are unwilling to hear feedback that's not positive" you might want to reevaluate who you think is being abusive in the relationship.
 
@jpmc26: I don't believe it has been addressed. Certainly not by you, sorry. It's not just making someone 'feel bad', the community is actively causing real anxiety. That's really not healthy, that has to change. No-one is perfect, especially not an when one side is an organisation of different people with different roles at different times, so raking up the past decisions is not exactly constructive when used as an excuse that you don't have to change or admit or introspect your own behaviour.
@Servy: this goes way beyond feedback that's not positive. This is about abusive responses, as in, not constructive and causing mental harm.
 
@SaraChipps It's sad to hear confirmation that, indeed, employees are wary and afraid of Meta. I have certainly seen examples of what you speak of. I hope one day you and your colleagues will, however, see the other side of Meta as well that I have seen, and still do in the right instances: The side that helps and guides the lost but polite new soul, or prods what seems to be an off-topic question until the true intention and on-topic request is revealed and edited into shape. Certainly, however, posts about the team have gone towards the negative end, sad to say.
 
9:02 PM
@MartijnPieters I introspect my behavior and my ideas constantly. I know full well I'm no paragon. But what you're suggesting is that because I'm not a paragon, I have discard everything I believe rather than think it through or defend my ideas. That is an ad hominem attack, and it's totally inappropriate coming from a mod. The things I've pointed out are relevant because they're examples of SO being unwelcoming based on ideology, which is why I don't trust them. We can't ban negative feedback just because there's a lot of it and because hearing that opinion makes people feel bad.
 
@jpmc26: this is not about banning negative feedback, no-one is banning negative feedback. If SO wanted to do that then it could simply lock posts like these.
 
Every interaction I have had with SE staff lately (including just reading their responses to others) has been negative (there was this one bright point w/podcasts but it faded very quickly). So I don't really participate in Meta anymore. Or basically, I understand your point and even agree but wonder if that blame should fall on SO users & regulars or on SE Employees (or more towards, there is certainly frustration on both sides which bleeds out - and I'm trying really hard not to let it come through now but again this comes out as "we don't like our regulars so we're not going to listen").
 
@MartijnPieters 'How about we assume good faith and step back and re-evaluate how we see the site and start thinking about how you might be missing that there is actually an abusive culture building here?' - and when will we be extended the same good faith? Not all harsh criticism is abuse, no matter how much you might want it to be. And as I mentioned above, if a user is going against CoC then deal with them.
 
@jpmc26: what I personally am concerned about is the dismissal of the report that employees, who's job it is to post here on Meta, are having anxiety attacks over having to do so. I have real issues with the way the report is swatted away as 'just hyperbole, an exageration'. That's what I came to say, what I wanted to focus on.
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@MartijnPieters Okay, yes. That's hyperbolic. Sorry. I should have thought that last sentence through more. Let me put it in better terms. You can't declare negative feedback to be undesirable just because it makes people feel bad.
 
9:02 PM
I appreciate the honesty.
 
@MartijnPieters I've had anxiety attacks myself. They can be pretty scary. But let me tell you this: the answer to them is not to demand that all your sources of stress go away. The answer is for you to adjust your life to deal with that stress. Maybe that means you take on different responsibilities. Maybe it means you change something important about your life. Maybe that mean approaching problems differently or changing your mindset. But you can't put the onus for dealing with them on everyone else.
@MartijnPieters And you certainly can't stop listening to the people you depend on to provide all your content for free because your employees can't handle that feedback. Handling that feedback is part of the job. Maybe you can filter out the worst of it (since moderators apparently can handle seeing the worst of it) to shield them from that actual rude or threatening content, but you can't say, "We, as the company, are not even going to read it or participate anymore." At some point, you're unqualified for the job if you can't handle it.
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It is also worth noting that it is entirely possible to be polite, professional and still act like a pompous blowhard, or worse.
 
@duplode It's also possible to miss an important and useful point because you decided to be dismissive of someone else's ideas just because you don't like the person. It's also possible to violate the CoC by calling people names without specifying who.
 
@jpmc26 one thing that my own mental health journey has taught me is that not every situation can be assumed to be the same as your own experience, and not every bad situation is down to lack of coping strategies. My take on Meta is that there is a cultural trend towards vilifying the company that translates to a lot of pressure on the individuals associated with the company, amplified with an overwhelming scale. I can totally see the need for a different way to gather feedback, one that is more resistant to mob-mentality reactions.
 
@MartijnPieters in all seriousness, I don't want to insult your intelligence or your dedication to this community but you do realize that people didn't just wake up one morning and start "vilifying" the company? You make it sound so simplistic as though people just pile on the company for no reason.
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9:02 PM
@MartijnPieters I think you're missing the point. It doesn't matter if it's down to a lack of coping strategies. If it's physical, okay, you get whatever treatment you need and do everything you can to get better. Key word: everything. If being an SO employee who has to deal with a large community that might respond badly to your decisions interferes with your mental health, you really need to be responsible enough to take yourself out of that position rather than vilify the community as the source of your problem.
@MartijnPieters I also rather strongly disagree that you can attribute the level of negativity to simple "mob mentality." Sara's blog posts asserts that even when the criticisms are completely valid and reasonable, it's still wrong to present them. In a community as large as SO's there's going to be lots and lots of people who have a slightly different take on an issue and want to present it for others to consider. That isn't a problem; that's a strength.
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If most of them have a negative view of a policy or change, that's a strong indicator of an actual problem.
@MartijnPieters I think also you're misinterpreting a principled argument about the nature of discourse and the inevitability of people feeling bad as a result of it as some kind of dismissal of concern for others. For myself, it's actually the opposite. When you're trying to make things the best they can be, you can't only consider who's involved and the situation at the moment. You have to think just as hard about the long term and who will be impacted in the future.
Disagreement is fundamental to arriving at the best outcomes in the long term. If you sacrifice that for the sake of the people who might be negatively impacted in short term, you're discounting concern for people in the future.
That's why I said there has to be a balance. And I am confident that where we were on politeness and professionalism before the welcoming push was much, much closer to the appropriate balance.
Feeling bad, and yes, even mental health problems, are facts of life that we cannot simply make go away. There are always trade offs. You can try to adjust everything to try to minimize or eliminate those feelings or those mental health issues, but you can't do it for free. You have to sacrifice something else to get them, and you might well be sacrificing the well being of a lot of people you'll never meet.
 
9:39 PM
@SaraChipps Thank you for your answer. I figured when Tim made this announcement that it was directly related to your revelation about Stack Overflow referenced in your blog post. However, I think "I can’t sleep at night knowing that we are forcing people to participate here as part of their jobs." is fairly overblown. Anyone with access to any sort of metrics about user engagement/participation on Meta knows that overwhelmingly, SO users/readers don't come to, let alone participate in, Meta.
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To say the company is "forcing" people to participate is far from a realistic claim from what I can tell. I'm not sure what you mean by "as part of their jobs"... maybe you can clarify that.
@SaraChipps From what I gather in the discussion about all this, the company is arguing that they can't work with Meta because it's always overwhelmingly negative vs 1 person, and your solution (thus far) to that is to remove Hot Meta Posts. With Hot Meta Posts now gone, is it the company's position that CMs (or whoever) can now safely engage with Meta again? Or not...
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And on that subject, if the feeling of 1:many that Tim Post complained about is a major issue, why not create a generic "SO Company" account that employees can use to post questions (and answers?) to Meta so that there's absolutely no worry about feeling like the target of personal/directed ire?
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9:59 PM
@TylerH but having a single account operated by multiple users will breach the ToS ...
 
I believe they can simply avoid calling themselves a "user" and exclusively an "employee" to avoid that violation.
As it stands all the bots on SO violate the ToS anyway
The interesting way to go about doing it would be to create a basic webapp that allows them to input new questions and then on submission writes to the database directly and assigns Community to the post owner role or something.
That way they don't even have to "create" an account.
 
Look at all this activity. Someone must have tweeted...
 
@SaraChipps is that statement to be read as a generalization of the state Meta is in or is that an absolute statement that applies to each and every user and all their interactions? if it is the latter then I don't recognize myself in that statement.
 
Zoe
10:17 PM
If you mean on discussions like reprex and the HMP removal post, that's a certain amount of frustration mixed in with a "why didn't you give us a heads up in advance?". Shog took the meta input and turned it into a positive in the reprex case (TL;DR: changed MCVE to a middle-ground, which I honestly think is an improvement over both MCVE and reprex). In this case, Bhargav's answer summarizes it too well: "Please don't do this to us". There's no attacking, there's no rudeness, it's feedback.
@SaraChipps SE is still to this day one of the very few sites I personally feel safe on. Sure, there are conflicts, and there are users who aren't polite, and there's users who are outright rude, but most of the people I've talked to, whether on meta or elsewhere, have mainly been polite independently of the topic. Please don't get this the wrong way, but what data are you basing that on?
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Also, I see far too many contradictions. You claim you're forcing employees to interact with meta, but there's hundreds, if not thousands of meta posts that need employee feedback that still has none. One example, up until recently, was the FB tracking post. Further, if employees are as affected as this as you say, how does that translate to removing hot meta posts? All you're doing is depriving users, who may not even be active on meta, the chance to participate in discussions.
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Giving moderators full access to featured as a replacement only means more work for moderators. What about conflicts? Some mods feel the featured tag should be on some post, others don't. What do you do if you end up with a featured rollback war? I get that the chances of that are extremely small because, well, moderators, but what if it happens? Stranger things have happened before (and to be clear, I'm not saying mods are out to abuse it as soon as they can, I'm saying "what if?").
 
@TylerH that would work. Not even a bad idea
 
Zoe
That being said, the mods have reached out on meta (meta.stackoverflow.com/q/387602/6296561) and asked what the users want. The top rated suggestion suggests a script that, based on views and votes, suggests posts that should be featured. Doesn't that sound an awful lot like Hot Meta Posts, just instead of having a pre-defined systems, it'll end up being created by the community? And this seems like a polite and professional discussion.
With a system that probably will end up as a [featured] HMP replacement, why remove it at all? You're not in any way improving the site - meta is still the same, the community is still the same, and if that script happens, the post suggestions will be nearly the same. The same users would see it, and the same users would end up on meta. Users who end up posting on meta anyway aren't as affected by the change.
You are right there are some instances where the situation could've been handled better, but the way you've said it makes it sound like the whole meta community is filled with rude, unprofessional people who are only out to get other people for even the slightest thing done wrong. If that actually is what you're saying, then the SE I've loved and contributed to is dead.
Especially the developers who've been implementing feature requests have gotten positive feedback (as far as I have seen anyway). There's even a meta post thanking SE for starting to implement feature requests.
 
Tyler, you bring up an excellent point. SO users don't participate on Meta. In fact, Meta has so few active users I could have them all my apartment over for a potluck :). Yet, it seems to be a place that a lot of people leave unhappy. The CMs are welcome to participate on Meta if they want.

It has, in the past, been part of team expectations to participate on Meta. Now, what has changed is that it is optional, with the caveat that most announcements will happen on the blog.

I like the idea of the SO Company account, however, it still doesn't really help with the fact that there are Milli
@rene it's definitely the former. There are some VERY kind people on Meta! They tend to get dwarfed by the angry and loud few.
@Zoe Sorry, what data am I basing what on?
 
Zoe
1 hour ago, by Sara Chipps
@jpmc26 I have not observed this to be a place where people are polite and professional.
 
10:34 PM
@Zoe since I have started, nearly a year ago. I have seen over a dozen threads where an employee is berated, mocked, and belittled.
 
@SaraChipps 'Yet, it seems to be a place that a lot of people leave unhappy.' - Meta is a place where people come to discuss and yes, sometimes, they're discussing contentious topics ('Why was my post closed?!', 'Why did I receive these down-votes?!') so you can't expect people to leave happy all the time.
 
@SaraChipps You seem to be conflating two separate issues. First is your perception that "Meta users are hurtful" and second is that "User needs are not being met."
There does not seem to be any immediate connection between the two. Here we are talking about the former, not the latter.
 
@Script47 With out a doubt, however, there is a difference between unhappy and abusive.
 
@SaraChipps you used the word "unhappy", not "abusive".
 
@jpmc26 Those are the two most prominent issues as I see them. Two separate issues, definitely.
@Script47 You are correct, I used unhappy in a different context than you did.
 
10:37 PM
@SaraChipps as for: ':46855268 We need to take a step back, and start getting feedback from all types of users in different places. Meta will continue to be one of those places, but it can't be the most important.' - This has been said so many times and still nothing has happened with regards to genuinely collecting feedback from the curators.
@SaraChipps Could you please clarify what you mean?
 
@SaraChipps What is your expectation with regard to whether you feel negative emotions at work? Is your expectation that you will never feel any?
 
@Script47 I'm sorry that you've experienced that. We will continue to ask curators for feedback along with other groups through user testing, UX research, and other venues.
@jpmc26 that's a great question, thanks for showing concern for my work experience. I think all of us experience negative emotions at work sometimes.
 
Zoe
@SaraChipps this is going to be extremely direct, but are you actively ignoring positives? You're still sounding like the entire meta community is rude. Take reprex, again, in which there was some "why?!", but the community overall came with alternatives, not a slaughter of the person who made the change
 
@SaraChipps: Thanks for providing the missing context to the decision. I'm quite glad to at least know now.
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@SaraChipps Under what circumstances do you think it's acceptable for a work environment to cause negative emotions?
 
10:40 PM
@Zoe Definitely not overlooking the positive folks in the community, there are a lot of those!
 
It does suck to have the circumstance of giving feedback to Meta become one full of anxiety.
 
@jpmc26 great question, I'll have to think about that one!
 
I'll want to respond in detail later but at least now I feel somewhat assuaged knowing the reason behind the decision.
 
@Makoto <3
 
@SaraChipps Do you understand that what your blog post and your answer here suggest is that you don't consider it to ever be acceptable?
 
10:42 PM
@Makoto you hadn't guessed the reasoning behind it being hidden?
 
@jpmc26 that's great feedback, thanks for sharing!
 
@Script47: I had only assumed. I'm trying to be better about making assumptions and presuming intent. My frustration with the decision is only rivaled by my frustration at watching the situation just...kind of implode all around me.
Shouting doesn't help anyone, of course, and that's what a lot of the post begat. In fairness, a shield was presented and our opinions came across like a battering ram, but that's not quite the point here...
Now that I know a bit more, I can at least take that back and parse it. Instead of having the reason hidden from me (which would've produced more angst), I can face it and reconcile it. So I'll do that...after I get other errands done later tonight.
Just...expect some big-ol' prose from me later in this chat.
 
@SaraChipps As an aside, I feel like I'm talking to automatically replying bot when you say that. It doesn't make me feel better. It doesn't make me feel respected. It doesn't make feel like you're acknowledging what I'm saying. On second though, maybe it is relevant. Because it demonstrates that human interaction is complicated beyond all belief.
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I'm ESL, I can only subscribe to what @jpmc26 just said, the fact this is a "great feedback" to the author of the post whose work is exactly about that makes me lost at best, suspicious at worst
 
meta users are the minority and not worth listening to over the hordes of new users who may actually be interested in the other products.
 
10:46 PM
@jpmc26 I think you're right, these things are complicated. I'm receiving your feedback, and am going to evaluate it against my own experiences and decide where to go from there. That's all any of us can do.
 
@Makoto I look forward to it.
 
...yeah @Script47, this is what I'm talking about (cc @KevinB)
There's enough to unpack here that cooler heads should probably take a stab at this.
 
Zoe
@SaraChipps then why does that lead to the removal of a feature that only affects passive meta viewers?
 
I'll drop it anywway: You're not dumb, you knew removing HMP would be badly received, why on earth dropping it now after the good effort on FR from the last days ?
 
@KevinB but isn't the biggest product (possibly most profitable) SO?
 
10:48 PM
That seems like voluntarily breaking the thin trust which were just reestablished...
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Zoe
^
 
@Tensibai I touched upon that in my post: '[...] or, from a cynic's perspective, are actively trying to push out the old folks to make way for the new direction SO is headed in [...]'
 
@SaraChipps Everyone is different, and if you really believe that differences are a strength, that means you're gonna have to accept that some people interact differently than you do. Some are more negative than you're going to like. Some are inclined to be direct and harsh. It means you'll have to learn to absorb feedback from people you actively dislike and think are wrong about a lot of things. And that means you'll never be able to construct a truly safe space.
@SaraChipps The only way to really be safe is to be strong enough to take whatever comes at you. To grow from it, instead of caving to it.
 
Zoe
@Zoe this was supposed to be after the reply :] thanks flaky connection
 
So call me paranoid if that's the case (and I'll be comfortable with that): but that really looks like what Script said in his post, and finally, if that's the case, stop torturing us and SAY it clearly, that will be easier for everyone
 
10:50 PM
@jpmc26 absorbing feedback I didn't enjoy is what you saw above. I try to be my best at it.
 
I just find it incredibly frustrating that we have this location, the only location where people freely give public feedback, open to scrutiny, findable by the entire community, that's essentially being shunned as a hateful place. That we're actively de-emphasizing the feedback from that location to instead gather feedback from other magical places that noone else can see.
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I know it's frustrating for you as well, that everything that's ever posted by employees is heavily downvoted
 
@SaraChipps Okay. If you agree with all that, I don't understand why you're saying Meta's negativity is a major problem. Those do not seem to me to be compatible views.
 
but... it's the place we can give feedback, obviously if it's publicly denounced and called negative that's gonna ruffle some feathers.
I don't understand the point of even saying this publicly.
 
Okay, all, I need to step away for the day. I appreciate the feedback and the conversation.
 
it's like, transparency in all the wrong places.
 
Zoe
10:52 PM
@KevinB you're assuming there is transparency
There's no official update logs for one
 
eh, there's an unofficial one that is kept up to date pretty well
 
@KevinB Let's not perpetuate this misconception. People don't just down-vote any employee post, just the bad ones.
 
you're correct
 
Zoe
@KevinB Yeah, but it still can't cover all the changes, because not all of it is visible. We have no idea what's put into all the updates beyond what we can see
 
but if you just look at the most voted on posts in the past couple months by employees... it's a pretty noticable trend
 
Zoe
10:55 PM
And it's not rare for userscripts to break because of an unannounced, undocumented change in page structure
 
@Zoe Kevin is saying transparency is the wrong places. His point is that this is something that does little good to say publicly, while other things that would be good to make public aren't. I actually agree there's transparency here; we're seeing SO's worldview (basically the "safe space" mentality some U.S. colleges have been adopting) being put into practice as company policy.
 
^
 
@KevinB But notice the other trend, it's generally those posts that the community had no say in. Just told that this is how it'll work. Which, I guess is fine, but tell us straight up that we aren't interested in your opinions (anymore).
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i would have been better off not knowing my feedback was less valued.
 
Zoe
Oh
 
10:59 PM
@KevinB But you'd be saved the time of presenting your feedback and the pretense of change. Which, incidentally, is the issue here, MSE is shouting at the top of its lungs and we are told that people a listening but nothing happens. Rinse, repeat.
 
@KevinB If SO sees a problem, though, I don't feel not knowing what they think is any better.
 
i mean, i'd rather be oblivious (to that fact) and happy :shrug:
 
@KevinB Well, ignorance is bliss.
 
@Script47 I get it. You're frustrated. And it's not like I don't think you have a point. But you made it. You don't have to be sarcastic anymore. Let's not actually become the antagonists they want to cast us as. Seriously consider walking away and cooling down a little.
 
That's how you get the situation with Tim's post, in which for 24 hours no one had a clue of what was going on, and we were left to speculate.
 
11:01 PM
@jpmc26 sorry, where am I being sarcastic?
 
@Script47 Aw, come on, man. I'm practically on your side with this issue; you don't need to argue with me. It's right at the start of your message: "But you'd be saved the time of presenting your feedback and the pretense of change."
 
that's kinda what i'm saying though. I do want transparency, it's just the transparency we're getting is in things that cause more division... rather than in the things that are coming down the pipe/being developed. Instead of discussing a new feature or change, we're discussing feedback sources and negativity/division.
 
@jpmc26 I promise you, there was no sarcasm in that statement. That is what's happening. Take a look here.
 
@KevinB That's a fair point.
 
@Script47 I know it's what's happening. I guess I misread. I was thinking you were saying it sarcastically as a positive, but taking a closer look, I see you weren't. Sorry for the confusion.
 
11:06 PM
@KevinB While I can understand why SO sees a need to reorganise the feedback channels, it feels weird to have Hot Meta Posts being turned off with no clarity about what is going to replace it as a community gaterhing tool.
 
eh, i don't think any additional clarity on that change would have changed the response from meta regulars
 
Not to mention the suddenness of the announcement has put our mods in a tough spot.
 
@duplode Nothing. The change is intended explicitly to decrease and de-emphasize community feedback. Although I'm don't particularly see how this change would bring that effect about, unless it's just to get less by hiding posts from users.
 
Well, for my part this is a bit too much of dismissal at this point, I'll take a break. Hope this may come to something with a clear position of what SE wants when I'll get back.
 
@jpmc26 No problem.
 
11:09 PM
It's clearly being done to tailor what users on SO see in that sidebar. whether it be showing less negative stuff, or more... i dunno, important stuff. either way, it's about control. Now moderators can almost fully control what shows up there. I think that's generally a good change, it's more the reasoning/timing that bothers me.
 
'Out of sight, out of mind'
 
At a time when we need as much participation on meta as we can get to discuss the big changes flowing around, we're reducing the number of questions that will flow through that list.
 
@jpmc26 "Nothing" is a possible outcome, given how little we know about their concrete plans.
 
that might be a good thing. will just have to wait and see.
 
@SaraChipps I'm still not convinced SO is asking for feedback from anyone except those who will give them positive results. I have several other comments & posts which state this (& know several SO users in RL who relate the same concern). I know I have a small sample size and should just take it as a low percentage but the less trust I have....
 
11:11 PM
@SaraChipps So just so I'm clear, we lose HMP because the SE Staff feel the site is too unwelcoming? Geez, what chance do we have...Honestly what is going on at SE HQ these days? Actual paid employeeswho can't take a bit of feedback, I'd be out if a job if I curled up in a ball every time a client disagreed with me!
 
@duplode I understand the desire not to assume, but they're pretty much telling us straight out they don't consider their established, active, engaged user base to be very important anymore. When someone tells you something, you don't have to guess about it.
 
@jpmc26 It is worth noting that if there is a selection bias issue in Meta (and I do think there is), removing Hot Meta Posts may well make it worse.
 
I personally don't trust many of the mods we have to select posts very well. but i'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. give it a month or two and see how it works.
 
@jpmc26 Why was this flagged?
 
I was wondering, too. I literally linked the message that proved it above, and it's not worded in a rude manner. But... retracted now, I guess? I dunno.
 
11:15 PM
@Script47 I have no idea.
A popup was shown over here asking whether the flag was valid; I marked it invalid.
 
@jpmc26 I marked it as invalid too.
 
Guys (meaning everyone), we just have concede that SO can't take criticism and that is why we no longer have HMP. Let's all take the opportunity to sing come by ah and hug it out, may be then they'll reinstate it.
2
 
@Zoe The reprex case seems an exception. But did you see the comments on the anti-emoji post or the Q/A attacking the data science topics last month? There is absolutely abuse being thrown at SE employees. Often whoever posts takes the brunt of all complaints people have about the company even though they may not be involved in the majority of those decisions. I can see why employees would be unwilling to post on Meta about pretty much anything as a result.
2
 
The reason why I think reprex was an exception was because - with all due respect to the rest of the employees - Shog was handling it.
2
 
Zoe
@Troyen from my point of view, the anti-emoji post is the exception.
And yeah, Shog stepped in there too. Shog seems to be very good at handling meta.
 
11:19 PM
@KevinB Well, personally I would be more at ease if the announcement included something like "Discussions about the company should now be held at MSE" (as George Stocker speculated in his answer here), or "This is our rodamap for reorganising MSO". I don't doubt the overall reaction would be similarly negative, though.
 
Yes, and he also was in a position to do something about it. I don't think e.g. Donna has much control over the master SO development plan. Her job seems to be gathering data to help guide decisions, not make them.
 
@Troyen I posted an answer on one of them pointing out the problem with the approach, which seemed to be a common one among many of the data science posts (lack of establishing the assumptions the analysis was built on). There was plenty of criticism, sure, but I didn't see anything that wasn't actually addressing a problem with the analysis. (Well, the emoji thing, maybe, but whatever.) Did you?
 
@Troyen Not even that, Shog has a lot more experience dealing with MSO (with respect to criticism).
 
The answers on the data science thread specifically seemed ok. I recall there was a separate question posted by the community that was attacking the whole point of the data science releases and their value because they disagreed with the approach and focus. And sure, you can disagree with their direction, but the wording and responses were fairly harsh.
 
@Zoe He's better than most, but... I have not enjoyed my engagements with him. My experience is that he generally side steps the question at hand and then frequently refuses to actually do much about it once you get past the distractions. It took hours to convince him that calling people "stupid" was a Be Nice violation back with the Time to Take a Stand post.
 
11:25 PM
Honestly reprex was an awful idea, hey I know MCVE is too long winded I've got a better idea let's use REPREX :/ Really? You wonder why people disagree with you...
 
That's not to say all responses have been negative. I do realize a number of people are good at responding constructively or positively. But as you might know from all the reactions to downvotes, a negative interaction can outweigh a number of positive interactions, and there's enough people throwing negativity at employees it can easily discourage them from participating.
(To be clear, I am disappointed about the HMQ removal. I used that frequently to keep up with meta.)
 
i don't like reprex.
but.... i never used the old page or asked for mcve's using the old page... so...
idc
 
To suggest they don't interact with meta because it's so negative is just ludicrous. Seriously people need to grow a back-bone and stop acting like everybody is against them. If I turned around to my employer and said I'm not talking to that client anymore they don't agree with me, I'd be out on my ear.
 
@Troyen But see, I find that response fundamentally problematic. If you're an SO employee who needs to engage with the community, your response to that should be, "Okay. They did not like that one bit! Why not? Do they disagree with my stance entirely? Did they misunderstand it?" Engaging in disagreements is part of managing a community. You're going to have some unpleasant encounters; it comes with the territory. If you can't do that, you literally can't do your job.
 
@jpmc26 absolutely!
 
11:30 PM
Panic attacks? Nightmares? Psychological damage? What? Why on earth would someone experience such things over a conversation on Meta?
I'm profoundly confused by the entire premise of this post, honestly.
 
@MarkAmery that is the million dollar question...I've got nothing.
 
@MarkAmery I don't discount the possibility entirely. But I would suggest that someone experiencing them has serious psychological issues that are not caused by Meta. If they have problems that severe, this probably just isn't a good environment for them to work in. Kind of like a person with asthma shouldn't be in a coal mine.
 
that's... getting pretty close to a personal attack.
 
@KevinB What is?
 
@jpmc26 it's almost the same attitude with "newcomers" to SO that is leading to this..."You disagree with how I've asked my question, I'm not going to interact with you anymore because you are unfriendly".
 
11:33 PM
@KevinB I'd say it's an honest interpretation. See the issue we have? Personal attacks are subjective.
 
@jpmc26 I think that would be true if it was part of their job description (which it is for the CMs) but most companies don't have their devs defending every decision to their customers. Not every customer will agree with every design decision you make.
 
i mean, saying someone shouldn't have the job they have is... not cool. regardless of how honestly you believe it.
3
 
Early SO had that, as do some companies in startup mode, but inevitably it doesn't scale as companies grow larger and older and experience culture changes from turnover
 
@KevinB No, I can see that, but I'm just saying that this whole thing is pretty subjective and it's understandable why it might not be seen by all parties involved.
 
@Troyen Okay, but did someone instruct them that they have do that? If the answer is, "Leave it to the people who are paid to deal with that crap," then that's a real solution. If the job duties are changing quietly with no pay increase or title change or anything, that seems like a problem with their employer, not the community. If they volunteered to do it, then it's on them to figure out how to manage it.
 
11:38 PM
@Troyen in which case SE need to look long and hard at their employment structure and hire people that can interact, can take criticism and understand the community. Not marketers, not Data Analysts (they have their place don't get me wrong), people that can work with the community to solve problems.
 
@jpmc26 What I got from Sara's answer is there was an implicit expectation that they had to previously and that expectation is explicitly no more.
 
@SaraChipps So, this is something I keep seeing being brought up as justification for concerns, but it is a huge assumption of the goal/purpose of Stack Overflow. I think, for what seems like the 3rd or 4th time at least, it's of paramount importance that the company (you, Tim, Jon, Shog, Joel, whoever) clarify via announcement what Stack Overflow is now and, crucially, what that means for users of the old guard.
3
Specifically, I'm talking about this line:
> it still doesn't really help with the fact that there are Millions of users on Stack Overflow whose needs aren't being met because in the past we've spent so much time on Meta which has .015% of Stack Overflow's active users and is not representative of the community as a whole
 
@KevinB Definitely not. No one is qualified for every job. Even disability discrimination laws only require employers to make reasonable accommodations. Telling the people who make your product viable by putting content in it to stuff it and stop giving feedback (when you've been asking for it for years) doesn't strike me as reasonable in any sense of the word. Allowing them to avoid participating in the community or reading that content directly? Fine, if their job doesn't require it.
5
 
@SaraChipps as far as Meta can tell, that .015% is what all of Stack Overflow should be and their guidelines and usage is what people should be adhering to.
If Stack Overflow is supposed to be something else, the .015% on Meta needs to be told that in no uncertain terms. So far we've just had Tim and others saying "the .015% on Meta is not mistaken" and then actions by the company show otherwise
4
Not to mention the elephant left in that room of that solidifying the fact that SO's Meta community is unique in that it doesn't get a say in the quality or subject matter guidelines like other Meta communities do. At least not to anywhere near the same extent.
 
@jpmc26 I agree - trying to blackhole feedback because an employee has panic attacks is like permanently closing the kitchen at a pub because a haemophiliac chef cuts themself on a knife. You just plain shouldn't apply accommodations that are that destructive to the functioning of a business and the satisfaction of its customers, especially when you can trivially just change that employee's responsibilities so they don't expose them to whatever the thing they can't deal with is.
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11:43 PM
You assume it's one employee. There's trash that gets aimed at pretty much every employee.
 
@Troyen There's trash that gets aimed at pretty much every user. That's part of being in an online community. Take a deep breath, flag it, and move on. SO is actually remarkably good at moderating such content compared to other communities.
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I can't believe you're actually arguing that telling someone to their face, here in SO chat, that they shouldn't have the job they have, is abiding by the be nice policy and is Ok, and a good thing to do.
2
 
@Troyen in which case the wrong people are being hired, or not enough of the right people to balance it out.
 
When people have panic attacks and nightmares for posting on meta, you should strongly consider that you might have hired the wrong people for the job, and saying that they are "abused" is ridiculously parabolic. There will always be disagreement with certain decisions. But I think SO would be surprised to see how few people would disagree if the decisions were sensible, considerate and well thought-through in view of the site's original goals, and not blind actionism.
5
 
@KevinB I never took the be nice policy as meaning sugarcoat things. I thought it meant don't attack people for no reason and stay within the bounds. Which I feel is being done here.
 
11:46 PM
@KevinB I am not assuming Sara is the one having panic attacks. In fact, I was assuming it was someone else.
 
who very well could be right here
 
@jpmc26 I was assuming it was the lot of them.
 
@KevinB Regardless, it doesn't matter. If the person in question is here reading this (which is admittedly unlikely), I'm telling them to make a decision to protect their mental health. I am not ashamed of trying to give good advice that makes people healthier.
3
 
It's certainly not an ingredient to a constructive discussion
not in the slightest
 
Have you spent any time on Workplace.SE? "Protect your mental health first and foremost" is common advice there, often paired with the idea that leaving their job is the best thing the asker can do for that.
2
 
11:49 PM
What are we meant to do, then? Pretend it's normal to have freaking panic attacks over disagreements on Meta? Decency doesn't demand that any more than it demands that I not advise an asthmatic against working in a coal mine or a man blind in one eye from doing experiments with lasers.
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