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6:51 PM
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A: Is idownvotedbecau.se recommended?

Tim PostThe point of using something like this has multiple tines, kind of like a fork: It saves you from having to keep typing the same information again and again The linked information is maintained and curated over time, and it has a neutral-to-positive tone. Many of the links lead to something act...

 
Regardless of the reason to use it, I've always seen it as the act of shooting yourself in the foot. A site like Idownvoted focuses on explaining what's wrong or even worse what someone did wrong and links that to a username to be angry at; the perfect way to light a fuse. What should be happening is explaining what can be improved. Exposing that you downvoted is in no way necessary to give that explanation, it doesn't aid you in any way besides poking with a fork. I do not understand why people insist on doing this in the most volatile way possible.
 
Call me stupid but one example of how I should not use those links will help me a lot. I think I got the meaning of all the words you've used, still not sure if I'm in the group that you're about to suspend.
 
It is interesting that the same time as this answer on meta arrived a question asking for clarifications of downvotes. Anyway I do agree it's all about intent of user using it but then also about some good faith from users receiving the link.
 
user50049
@rene I updated. The cases where this is really problematic are very easy to spot. It's people taking Jon's initial answer as an opportunity to "rule lawyer" that "they were just trying to be helpful" yet in no way does it hold up to any scrutiny at all. I'm determined to not go the "this is why we can't have nice things" route.
 
Wait, hold up. Just pasting the link itself is now verboten? That seems like a pretty massive overreach straight into bad faith.
 
6:51 PM
I'm kind of worried about this. I don't use any of those links so I should be okay but it seems like more and more SO is taking away resources that encourage the OP to help themselves and instead expect us to hand hold them. Could we get a couple examples on how not to word the comments so we can keep using them as there is a lot of good information there.
 
user50049
@fbueckert Cases of people just posting multiple links. No context at all, nothing. Just "here's why you suck" is how it comes across and that's .. not okay.
 
@fbueckert That's not what the answer says.
 
@TimPost Just assuming malice and ill intent in comments that have neither is specifically violating the stated guidelines. Users are expected to assume good intentions of others. Just assuming someone is trying to be rude because they're not going into lengthy personalized explanations, rather than assuming something well intentioned, like that they didn't consider such an explanation worth their time, is specifically against the stated guidelines of how users are expected to behave here.
 
I can see how that can be unfriendly, but...I'm not a fan of how heavy handed you seem to be going with this. The expectations for curators is getting heavier and heavier, without any accompanied tooling to help with the lifting. That's not okay.
 
@TylerH It's what Tim's most recent comment just said, so...yeah.
 
6:51 PM
@Servy No, it's not.
 
Tim, if you think that these links aren't useful, then by all means, express that view. I certainly don't think that they're helpful. But treating people posting information that they pretty clearly think is trying to be helpful, even if you disagree on whether or not it's actually helpful, as if they're being rude an malicious, is not appropriate at all.
You're specifically antagonizing and alienating a group of people on a basis that your own rules state you should not be doing. It's far more constructive to approach the problem from trying to explain to others how (you think) their comments can be more useful to the users reading them than to vilify the people posting them and threaten them with disciplinary action for trying to be helpful.
 
user50049
@Servy I was ... pretty clear ... that it's a small group that seems to be taking the fact that we allow these as a free pass to ridicule people however they choose. And I also said I'm not inclined to let that group ruin it for everyone else, but it has gotten to the point where we need to warn people not to use these links to try and duck our code of conduct. How is that vilifying you in any way?
 
@TylerH According to Tim posting bare links is to be interpreted as someone saying other people suck, that it's rude, and that people will be suspended for doing it. That's literally what they say. If that's not the intention, then they need to be reworded significantly and explain that that's not the case. You just saying, "Tim didn't say that thing that I'm staring at him having said" isn't going to convince a lot of people.
@TimPost I've never have, and never will, post one of those links, so it's not vilifying me. As for how it's vilifying other's you're claiming that merely posting a bare link to a site with information on how they can improve their question is inherently to be interpreted as an insult and ridicule, rather than (attempting to) provide helpful information on the problems with the post and how the post can be improved.
 
user50049
I can't enumerate a list of this is what being mean looks like . to a bunch of adults. I'm simply not going to do that. Don't use these links as a way to be mean to people. "I downvoted because you didn't give me enough information to help" isn't mean. "Boy if only you had read 19 books on programming prior to even daring to create an account here, you'd know why you don't even understand what you're doing" is mean. And that's what I'm talking about because that's how they're increasingly being used. But I can't create a comprehensive bullet list, behavior is too dynamic.
 
I see these links more as a symptom than a root cause; there's been so much complaining and pushback against downvotes without explanation that this site was made to help explain in a more generic way. So the root cause is that there's not enough explanation on SE for what downvotes are, or how they are used. I think the root cause should be fixed, and then these links will organically disappear, and this becomes a non-issue. Considering that the site's been in operation for at least 18 months, this seems more like a case of shooting the messenger than fixing the problem.
 
6:51 PM
As someone who never uses these comments, I don't feel bad at all for the following joke: "idownvotedbecau.se/IDisagreeThatItsMeanDontBeASnowflake" :)
 
@TimPost "Boy if only you had read 19 books on programming prior to even daring to create an account here, you'd know why you don't even understand what you're doing" And if you were saying you're suspending people for posting a comment like that, you wouldn't have any push back at all. The problem is (as far as I can tell) you aren't talking about comments like that. You're talking about comments saying radically different things that you're just interpreting, in bad faith, as meaning something like that quote. That is the problem.
I'm not saying you need to provide a bulleted list of all bad behavior. I'm saying you're assuming bad faith and interpreting comments intended to be helpful (given your examples) as personal insults. So either the examples you've already given aren't representative of the situations you actually have in mind (in which case you should fix them so it's clear to us that the example situation is in fact an example of malicious behavior), or you are assuming malicious intent in cases where it's not merited (in which case, stop doing that).
 
user50049
@Servy My job would be much easier if I could agree with you totally there. That would mean I could just keep focusing on better guidance that is practical to adapt / adopt and keep building more gentle nudges into the system in the form of just-in-time help. I really like that kind of work because I know how well it's going to pay off. But what I'm seeing (and I'm not going to paste too many examples because we may use some filters here and I don't want people working around them) is really bad. Bad as in, there's no question of intent - people were/are going out of their way to be mean.
 
@TimPost Well your description of the situations aren't showing that. If you actually describe the parts of their behavior that were actually obviously malicious, other than just saying that they're posting uexplained links to a site (an action not clearly malicious) then, as I said, you probably wouldn't have much or any pushback at all. For example, if you said that someone posted the same link 100 times in comments to the same post, that's obviously malicious. You appear to be leaving out the part of the example that actually shows ill intent.
 
user50049
@Servy It is similar to the LMGTFY problem we had. If we set up a list of what's currently bad, then people hell bent on being mean just find ways that don't fit the examples we provide. Hence, if someone is being obviously mean, we're going to enforce the code of conduct and do something about it.
 
@TimPost If you don't provide any information about the types of behaviors your actually considering malicious, then you have two problems. First, and most importantly what's the point of this point? If most people are doing it fine telling people not to do some thing you aren't telling us about isn't helping anyone not do what you don't want them to do. And second, we've seen so many examples recently of SO employees interpreting helpful behavior as malicious, I just don't trust your opinion of what's "obviously malicious" over situations you aren't even describing.
@TimPost Well the alternative you choose to go with was to describe helpful behavior and just call it insulting and people engaging in that behavior bad people, which I'd say is worse than providing an example of malicious behavior and having someone do some slightly different malicious behavior and use your example as a basis for saying they didn't break the rules.
 
user50049
6:51 PM
@Servy Fair enough on your second point. I don't think we're going to meet part way on the first (possibly due to the second point), but I do appreciate the conversation and your time, and your patience for me which you seem able to conjure out of the air. But your second point has been something I have been speaking internally about quite a bit, we're not in a good position to make these kinds of requests, so I hope you appreciate that knowing this, I wouldn't do it unless it was a pretty big problem starting to emerge.
 
This is one of those situations where trust would go an awful long way. That is, unfortunately, one coin that SE has spent heavily on the last year. I'm afraid there's not enough in the bank at this point for me to just take you at your word for it. I'm not a fan of the way @Servy is wording the disagreement, but I agree with the thrust of what he's saying. The long and short of it is, curators just aren't trusted anymore, and that's amply backed up by SE's actions. I don't know how to fix that, but I wish I did.
 
user50049
@fbueckert If you happen to catch my last comment, you'll see that I'm agreeing with him there (and you, too). I know trust is an issue and I know a lot of people are riding on trust they have in me or others on the team, not so much the company. I'm very very aware of this, but this problem is starting to look bad enough that I (knowing this was an issue) posted anyway. I hope you can find some significance in that, and the fact that I don't want to take the resource away from people using it properly, or put wonky gates around it, etc.
 
@Servy Tim said posting a link that someone else already posted, typically without additional content, is what's not OK. That's not the same as being the first person to post the link. He went on to add other context that can change the consideration regarding these links. As always I stress reading what is actually said and accepting that it means that, rather than thinking it means whatever you assume on top of what was said.
 
Your own personal trust is still good, with me, at least. But that's a hard thing to disentangle from the trust in the company, as like it or not, at some point, they become intertwined. While I myself have not used those links, I do find this action to be rather heavy handed. I hope you can appreciate that perspective, and maybe use it to push forward with a solution so that these links aren't needed at all.
 
@TylerH can I get suspended because of race conditions, though? I type the comment (which takes me time because I'm on mobile), my internet dies as I'm posting the comment (reliable WiFi is the prime directive of the places I like to visit), mod notices I'm the second one who linked the site, follows his instructions which say that the second time the link is posted is definitely malicious... My internet doesn't even need to die. All it takes is that the comment shows but the page doesn't deem it worth its time to reload, so that I never learn about the previous comment before a mod gets angry
 
6:51 PM
@JohnDvorak First of all, I don't think that's really an edge case that needs consideration because I don't think it has happened ever or will happen more than perhaps once or maybe twice ever. Second, I still don't think it's a problem to trust our moderators to handle that appropriately because they are held to a higher standard of judgment and can and do get called out for suspicious actions here on Meta regularly, and they also can see plenty of contextual information if they land on these pages like how closely two comments were posted together, whether the poster regularly does this, etc
 
So, if someone posts images of code. I will down-vote. I will 100% not take the time to explain to someone that is programming why images of code suck, and why I down-voted, because I already have done it a lot of times (before I found idownvotedbecause page). Are you saying that you prefer me to downvote and leave than post a link explaining why? Well, "prefer", I mean, you will ban me if I post it.
As a proposed solution: Would "yourPostWillNotBePossitivelyReceivedBecau.se" work as something less rude?
 
@AnderBiguri I don't think the dns name by itself is the issue, it is how it is used
 
@TylerH No, Tim didn't say that posting the same link multiple times is malicious. They simply said that posting multiple links is malicious. So pointing out, for example, that a post is both very broad and not well researched, or unclear and also subjective. Lots of posts that aren't good have more than one problem with them. If Tim was referring specifically to someone posting the same link over and over to the same post, then that certainly wasn't made clear.
 
@rene to inform new users about why people are down-voting their questions? The text inside is very polite and even suggests pinging the commenter for a reverse on the up-vote. In my eyes, the link is better than nothing.
 
@AnderBiguri no, informing them is fine, a bare link, or multiple of them, is what seems to be the concern. I do expect if the comments are phrases like some examples here I assume we're good, although some of those might still need some redaction improvement now that I revisit them.
 
6:51 PM
@Servy Yes, actually, he did say don't post the link a second time if it's been posted already, and he said it again in a comment.
 
@TylerH Care to point out where, within the context of this comment, it refers to posting the same link multiple times: "Cases of people just posting multiple links. No context at all, nothing. Just "here's why you suck" is how it comes across and that's .. not okay." I've read the comment a number of times now. I see no reference to the links being the same link. Care to provide a quote, rather than just saying you're right over and over.
@TylerH Of course, people sometimes post a link that someone has already posted because they either were both typing the comments at the same time, or didn't notice that someone else already linked it. You've been told this. This is not malicious. It's also not the situation Tim described, but even this situation you're describing that Tim wasn't still isn't malicious or any demonstration of malicious intent.
 
user50049
We're .. doing exactly what I hoped to avoid here. What I gave as an example was people posting the links in what looked like a "pile on" or "dogpile" fashion. How many is that? That depends, however many is needed for multiple people to come a way with a perception that the interaction was deliberately hostile or punitive in some way.
 
user50049
FYI, I'm AFK for a bit, though I will be checking on mobile.
 
I was going to comment, but saw this chat instead. So, I know I wasn't in the thread but I had this to say: this reminds me of the reason why "what have you tried" was banned. If there is a growing amount of use which is simply a link only, that isn't really helping for the same reason; namely that if users aren't interested enough to actually explain what the issue was, then they should probably just move on.
 
user50049
6:57 PM
The "Let me Google that for you" thing took a similar turn. Initially it was a softer / nicer way to point out something really obvious that someone overlooked and was taken tongue-in-cheek.
 
I can't help but feel all these, "Don't do that, and then don't do that, and you better not do that!" messages aren't really fixing the issue so much as just papering over the problem.
 
It is unfortunate, but that is the way these things seem to go. If everyone simple LMGTFY stuff like "javascript microtask queue" then sure, it works well. But when people start LMGTFY "how do I facebook" it becomes an issue.
@fbueckert Totally, but they aren't meant to fix the whole issue. It is just at least improving part of the problem.
Shog had a really good quote on this once, let me see if I can find it.
 
user50049
For context, most people use idownvotedbecau.se responsibly and respectfully, and are visibly trying to be helpful. But there's a growing frequency of people being just downright jerks and trying to hide behind the "I was just being helpful! Show me what rule I technically violated!" thing and they have all the time in the world to defend their horse sh*t while everyone else has work to do.
 
@TimPost It was the same with the New Contributor icon, you were saying.
 
user50049
I can't give concrete examples because I don't wanna skew a lot of testing we have in place right now, nor do I want to vilify people by having folks dig Google to turn up stuff, so I have to be a bit vague.
 
7:03 PM
I'm fine with not having concrete examples. I just don't like this whole, "shooting the messenger" feeling.
2
 
Well, if I had a dollar for every time I tried to find something I remember Shog saying but couldn't.... Basically it was this: if we took away closure, flagging, or even downvoting, users would find some way of indicating that they don't think that content should be there.
 
user50049
Yeah, so we're not taking it away. I like the purpose of the site.
 
So I think that all of these issues with lmgtfy, what have you tried, WSOIN, idownvoted, etc. is the result of users trying to explain that they simply do not agree the content is topical.
 
There's obviously going to be some exhaustion and frustration mixed up in there, too.
 
user50049
^^^^ That
 
user50049
7:04 PM
It's cathartic.
 
All of them are symptoms of a greater problem.
 
user50049
Ayup. One we have to fix.
 
Like, I spent this morning monitoring .
There was almost not a single new question that didn't deserve a downvote.
 
user50049
I am really excited about working with David to re-invest in quality and community needs. Let me just leave it at that, I have not been quiet internally about our lack of doing that.
 
Images of code, how do I do this without code, etc., etc.
 
user50049
7:06 PM
Oh I love the images of code to evade copyright detectors and cheat scanners
 
VBA isn't fun at the best of times, and is generally an itty bitty wrench when a whole sledgehammer and blowtorch is what's actually needed.
 
user50049
but now they're using OCR and there's nowhere to hide.
 
But most posters are beginners, so it's super frustrating trying to get something approaching even code most of the time.
 
Most questions are asked because of a lack of understanding. If I were to ask a question about R it would probably look rather lame.
I think that there is a quick jump to assumption that just because there is lack of knowledge in one subject the asker lacks all expertise.
 
user50049
We're not going to harass people that have good intentions, and we do need to fix a lot of underlying issues. But I also have to speak to that subset who is really creating a bad perception of the community (and they aren't generally contributors on meta, though they're quick to furnish a link they think is a license to be a jerk) and that's what I did today. I didn't want to spook people but I can only work with what I've got.
 
7:10 PM
Can I ask you this though Tim, getting back to the topic at hand: when is idownvotedbecau.se recommended?
 
user50049
Whenever it helps someone figure out where they could have done something better and ideally provides some kind of call to action on how they could fix it.
2
 
user50049
The latter isn't always possible. Sometimes the belly flop is so enormous that all they can do is break up a question into smaller more descriptive parts and try again.
 
user50049
But in instances where you feel like the person is just beyond, or probably not even ready for help, and that's all you can really offer, it's best to just downvote and move on.
 
user50049
What I saw was pretty clearly people ganging up on users for having the audacity to not be as smart as they were. There was little doubt about it.
 
Not really disputing your claim, was just trying to get a little coalescence.
 
user50049
7:14 PM
Well, what I didn't say well enough (and it's hard to because I don't want to spark a mass crawling of every comment in history) is most people aren't part of the problem I need to address, even though they live in the same neighborhood, so to say.
 
user50049
I really debated posting too, because I know full well how much we've overextended any capital we ever had to ask people to change somehow. That has to get paid down massively before we undertake anything else where trust is a pretty key component. That's well-known internally, and I repeat it often.
 
user50049
It was just, well, bad enough (what I have been seeing as I dig through the comment classification tests) that I had to try to do something about it right now. It just couldn't wait.
 
user50049
I don't want it to get to the point where people start digging Google for that URL in comments and auto-flagging, which was already starting to happen.
 
I would assume the worst ones were the result of the mvce suggestion. Personally, it bothers me that there is the belief that a working example must be included if code is included. Often it isn't required if you are a domain expert.
Sure, if you were just hoping to post a quick answer that didn't require actually using a relevant IDE, then not having a whole working example can be problematic; but often if you have the IDE open, recreating the situation is rather straightforward given proper code to reproduce the issue (even if it isn't necessarily a whole working example).
Hi @rene, what's your take here?
 
user50049
I was a little surprised at how that was a sincere belief too, as in how widely folks think that applies. Some of my best questions were about Mercurial or complier flags or .. well, not much code there to show.
 
user50049
7:21 PM
The wizard will soon have an archetype for tool-oriented questions which doesn't require code, but asks for commands you've tried or such.
 
Really looking forward to the wizard, does it have a name? Can we call it Merlin? :P
 
user50049
Because after all, we thrive on the blood of souls that have punctured themselves with git.
 
@TravisJ Well, I'm concerned and trying to figure out if what we have in our repo will be causing problems;: github.com/SO-Close-Vote-Reviewers/auto-comments/blob/master/…
 
@TimPost I almost self hosted git yesterday. || this close
 
@TravisJ there is only one Wizard and we called him Shadow ...
 
7:23 PM
Fair enough, Shadow is a great Wizard
 
user50049
@rene Nah. The "Unresponsive" one could use some words around it but it's also kinda self-explanatory.
 
user50049
But if your link text was like "You need to go back to elementary school and learn math" (closer to what I was reacting to) then we'd definitely need to talk about it
 
@rene Some of them seem a little curt, but most of them seem generally helpful. I don't see how there is any difference between the comment for No MVCE and simply linking to idownvotedbecau.se/nomcve though.
@rene - I think it would help a lot if, at least in the MVCE auto generated comment, there was a way to pass in a string that allowed for at least some suggestion of where to aim for the example.
I don't think the Unresponsive comment really solves anything. How many times has someone actually had a positive reaction to that comment and started being more attentive to their question?
 
user50049
The generic "There's just nothing to work with here" is not problematic. If you're able to help them identify what's relevant, that's preferable, but that's all part of ideal comments ending in some way the person could actually do something with what you suggest.
 
user50049
I'd say 70% of questions lacking any code (and needing it) also offer no real hint as to what else might be there. So for those "Hey, you need this thing called an MCVE" is fine.
 
7:30 PM
I like all of them, except the MVCE one seems kind of like "you need an MVCE because you need an MVCE", the unresponsive one seems useless imo, and the No debugging could use a little improvement to explain why it was needed (I know why, but just guidance helps the OP).
@TimPost There is a "No Code" one though. I actually like that one.
"It seems you have a problem with your code. However, we can't help unless we have [code or information that can reproduce the problem]". I mean, that looks really good to me.
 
user50049
But then again, good-faith use of this hasn't been really problematic, even when the comments have been terse, they usually point at something the person can conceivably do to help themselves. It's the ones that do little more than belittle someone obviously lacking the experience to realize what they're being shown, especially when the pile on, that just come off as cruel.
 
Yeah, the pile on. That is always rough.
 
@TravisJ yeah, agree on that. I fixed the unresponiveness one for now.
 
@rene I like the unresponsive version you put up
 
@TravisJ SOCVR has always seen that as a problem. We have it as a rule in our FAQ: socvr.org/faq#GEfM-only-one-member-on-post
 

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