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08:00 - 20:0020:00 - 00:00

20:00
NodeLists
@Alex - Sizzle has a specific code path for classes: github.com/jeresig/sizzle/blob/master/sizzle.js#L421
but it still takes a selector
not a classname
that's a micro-optimization, not a classname selection feature
$('class')
doesn't work
So does getElementsByClassName(), that's just semantics, his point was browser JS engines are optimizing common use cases
It's just .class vs class for the call, that's not the main point :)
I just disagreed with the fact that getElementsByClassName was at all influenced by jQuery
Yeah -- one of the reasons Mozilla hired John Resig was to have him give feedback to their JavaScript language implementors about the requirements for framework libraries
20:03
I think it very much is, by jQuery and other libraries, since they've been around using classes to identify sets of elements is by far the easiest way
I just think that querySelect(All) matches what he was going for
getting something by classname is pretty different than getting things by selectors
even if they look the same in the simplest case
FF had getElementsByClassName long before jQuery had any mass popularity
I agree that's another example, but getElementsByClassName() is another perfectly valid one.
it's tangential
but it's not the same...
@Alex - It was added in FF3, so I disagree with that
ah, was thinking of getElementsByTagName
ah, was thinking of getElementsByTagName
which gebcn was much more likely to be inspired by...
20:08
I just think that browser makers have been influenced by the frameworks' use of CSS selectors in their additions to the JavaScript API...I don't think it's the only factor by any means, just identifying the same elements a style in your CSS does alone has a lot of uses. ....but I do think they had an impact, if for no other reason than they showed the usefulness of using a CSS selector style of finding elements to the masses.
i totally agree, in respects to querySelectorAll
but the dom level 2 spec talks about getting things by tagname
and nodelists
and the like
node name != class :)
getElementsByTagName is just as 'like' a selector engine as getElementByClassName
it's just one part of the dom element
and it returns a nodelist
tagnames are still valid css selectors
moreso than classnames actually, since tagname is actually a valid css selector (doesn't need a . prefix)
Not in the context of the discussion, getElementsByTagName() was around before the major libraries, other things like getElementsByClassName() weren't, they were influenced by the communities need for them, largely advertised by libraries like jQuery
I think you've lost the context of the original comment :)
no i haven't. I'm saying they would have come around, regardless of the major libraries.
20:13
I agree, eventually, but to say they had no influence is disingenuous, stronger the need = quicker something comes about
i think it's more disingenuous to say that jquery invented/popularized getElementsByClassName
jQuery was hardly the first library to include class-name lookup
I never said jQuery, I said all the major frameworks :)
is there any framework that had classname lookup?
and not a selector engine?
if it was so influenced by the frameworks, it seems like it would have gone there first
@Alex - again semantics, no one's aruing that, we're saying "hey classes, what a great way to organize sets of elements"...and the way libraries needed that popularized a need for a more efficient way to do it in native code, not that any of them invented it.
20:17
sigh rangy doesn't work after just plugging it in
So the browsers said: "hey look, everyone's using selectors to get nodelists. Lets do something worse!"
it's probably safe to say that both jQuery and getElementsByClassName were driven by the "unobtrusive JS" trend, wherein styling and code were implemented separately (and in similar ways)
i can only hope that it'll be easier to fix/debug than what I had been using
I think you're thinking in JavaScript, from a browser's perspective the class lookup it much more trivial to implement, that can be a factor in when a factor in when a feature debuts as well
getElementsByClassName is way more involved in what it does than, say, getElementsByTagName
20:18
so then getElementsByClassName was most driven by browser laziness
and not a logical next step after getElementByID and getElementsByTagName
@Doug Are you running the code inside an iframe, or is it on the same document that the rangy script is in? Is it not working as in throwing an error, or not working as in not selecting the correct nodes?
@AlexSexton I wouldn't go that far
@BrianGrinstead same document and not working as in throwing an error
for the record, the same code works fine in browsers with native W3C range/selection
We're used to selector engines now that can handle complex selectors, but it wasn't unusual to see simple selectors (even routines that just did single classname lookups) combined with procedural code
AFAIK, prototype.js was that way, at least originally: you retrieved elements and did stuff with them
@shog - correct about prototype there, the first major release at least
I'm having to retake screenshots of an app in IE because evidently they're got a presentation to the Gates foundation, heh
20:22
@Doug What is the error you are getting? I've been able to plug it in and use the same functions for all browsers. Maybe you are just using some other functions that I haven't needed
@Brian RangeException("INVALID_NODE_TYPE_ERR")
@Brian this is after range.insertNode(documentFragment)
i believe the fragment has only TextNodes as children
seems like the TextNodes are not expected, at least they are in the "invalidTypes" array
not sure what to make of that, tho
i'm gonna write a "Letting go of jQuery for HTML5 developers" guide i thinkkk
cuz you can get away with pretty decent syntax as long as you have a standards browser with all the new shit.
@Doug Oh well. Maybe file a bug report? It seems like the developer is really active, and I don't know of other libraries that do exactly what you want. Let me know if you find one though, I'd like to use it.
@PaulIrish I'm not sure I'd ever call NodeList traversal decent. But you can certainly write your own wrappers without much effort.
Seems like something like jQuery could still be useful in html5 land
20:28
@Brian. Yea, i noticed lots of activity on the google code page. That's a good sign, the other project i was using has been dormant for a year. So far, I haven't found anything that stands on its own outside of IERange.
@Brian and thanks for the help
the abstraction is thriving and popular and could still be leveraged pretty well
@Shog9 yeah more or less that.
i just think its kinda revealing when you discover what sorta syntax you can get away with without jq
I was using XPath in Firefox to do roughly the same sort of thing before I started using jQuery. So now querySelectorAll can get me to roughly the same place, but with slightly, slightly more browser compatibility
Some of us are stuck supporting IE7 (not 6, I'd have shot myself by now), and can't take much advantage of the new stuff, though we'll go and a tangent and add new-browser specific features when we can
big difference in being the behind the firewall and not that's for sure
oh oh i know, nick. :) i just think its interesting from an education perspective. believe me i am all about solution ie6 + 7 problems.
*sovling
or however you spell that. :-x
20:33
Heh, well, everything I do for work still does have to support IE6. So all this is fun for a hobby, but yeah...
I'm hoping the Windows 7 installs coming after the SP1 release really put a dent in the IE6 usage as corps move off XP, but unless it happens at the place you're working....
but honestly, dropping IE7 won't do much, not until the base minimum is IE9 can lots of things move on
and given how its JavaScript engine is in beta, even that's in question :)
I'm sure we'll finally move to Win7 company-wide around the time Win8 is released. Whether or not that'll mean IE8 or IE9 is anyone's guess though.
we have an old app I stay away from with <center> elements randomly in there, like </tr><center><tr>....
very scary source written about a decade ago
ouch
how do you do your IE6/7/8 testing?
20:49
IE6 on VM or Citrix, IE8 on my dev machines, IE7... don't bother.
It's tedious, but then again, web stuff is only 5% of my job at best
Evening gents
'evenin
tb
tb
@AndyE Hello.
21:10
Is it me, or are there a lot more "I'm getting no response!" cross-domain questions lately?
most of them where the OPs completely unaware of the SOP as well
21:26
@NickCraver VMFusion with two Windows machines on it — one with IE6 and another with IE8 (IE7 is IE8 with compatibility mode on)
22:07
Please make the reply buttons like 5x bigger so I can actually click on it
I would prefer also to have a threaded live-chat interface, so we can stay on topic

Chat feedback

Problems with chat? Let us know...
(you're preachin' to the choir though...)
@Shog9 can we make a threaded chat interface?
instead of chronological, just make the topics chronological and allow us to reply to topics
it would be possible
I think it's truly hilarious how many JS questions are answered with "just stop the event" (event.preventDefault(), return false)
hehe
is there FireQuery for Chrome?
or something to that effect?
22:14
@rchern - Chrome has some pretty extensive built-in tools, but you can use Firebug lite if you wish: getfirebug.com/firebuglite
@NickCraver FireQuery == jQuery + Firebug
oooo right, saw it but never looked into it
should check that out
hehe
oh and 1.4.3 is finally live on the CDN, nice
@NickCraver anything good? I haven't been following development lately.
22:20
was looking for easy access to something like .data("events")
Some handy data attribute stuff, all the CSS code was overhauled, some handy release handler stuff unless it got cut
@rchern What are you looking for?
Sorry, not sure I follow
e.g. $(selector).click(false) == $(selector).click(function() { return false; });
ah, nice
@rchern I just use the console for that out of habit, but probably not what you're looking for, e.g. console.dir($(".myClass").data("events"))
22:22
@NickCraver, right. but seeing that with the dom inspector would be so much more epic (:
@NickCraver Yeah that's what I was going to suggest
Hi can some one give a look at my question
0
Q: Passing parameters from a javascript code to JSP using XMLHttpRequest

JudyHi, I want that on a mouse click my code which is written in javascript send some parameter(id) to JSP code which is on the server. The JSP code then returns a string to the javascript. Html code for button " Click Me!" function() { var xmlHttp; xmlhttp = new XMLHttpReques...

no, i know that i can print stuff to the console to look at .data("events"), but FireQuery adds the handlers to the dom inspector so that you don't need to even bother with console prints
Kindly give answer if anyone can have a look at code
and suggest
@Judy edited.
22:26
@Judy I cleaned that up for you a bit
@Shog9 damn
I should have known :-)
heh, oops...
@Shog9 We did pretty much the same things :-)
more or less; I've re-integrated your changes to the first paragraph
@Judy I have only once or twice created an AJAX request from scratch, I always use Prototype.js or jQuery
gosh, if only i had an easy way to view the question's timeline to see what you did
22:29
You might find those help you significantly!
oh wait... (;
@Josh Seriously?
LOL @rchern
Here's that .bind(evt, false) change: github.com/jquery/jquery/commit/… There's a changeData event not when .data() changes, and this one's very handy: github.com/jquery/jquery/commit/…
@Shog9 Actually no, I have once or twice when I first learned AJAX
22:29
.data("something") falls back to looking for a data-something="blah" attribute if there is no data with that key present...typed correctly too
But after that, no
@Paul - When are the 1.4.3 notes due out?
when it launches! tomorrow probz.
@Shog9 Last time I made a plain old AJAX request without a helper library was probably 5 years ago
that when the boston meeting is, or are you at that now?
22:31
@rchern the chrome devtools team is working on something like firequery... shhh
that's when the conference kicks off. bunch of us are hanging around now, ya
o:
zips her lips
looking forward to it, lots of very handy changes in 1.4.3
hehe! love the drawing effects on your site
What @Judy is trying to do is fairly straightforward, I'm sure someone here has the answer for her right?
22:34
@Josh yes
I assume you do...
Oh, actually, I see the issue
Are you writing it, or do I have to put down my beer?
@Shog9 Haha, I do, I just stopped reading when I saw the code
@Shog9 this is what i was thinking to be honest...
@Shog9 I have to look up how to do a callback without a helper library since it's been so long!
22:35
She already has the callback - just needs to implement it!
@Nick do you have an URL that shows the changes in 1.4.3.? Can't seem to find anything right now...
@Shog9 All I see is xmlHttp.onreadystatechange = handleRequestStateChange -- handleRequestStateChange doesn't appear to be defined. So finish your beer :-)
@Tom - that's what I was asking Paul for, probably tomorrow for the official notes...I tend to just look at the commit history though: github.com/jquery/jquery/commits/master/src
excllent
@Nick Yeah I guess I'll wait :-)
22:37
@Paul - this comes up on SO at least 2-5 times a month, would be nice to see it added to the docs to people feel safe using it: bugs.jquery.com/ticket/7200
This is a pretty nice feature SO added
@Shog9 I'm still going to need to look some things up to make my answer complete, heh. I know what I'm about to post isn't quite correct
Will probably get downvoted
@Josh I'll reverse my vote once you fix it... ;-p
yes, I did make mistakes, correcting
@Josh - no need for all those variables :) xmlHttp.onreadystatechange = function() { alert(xmlHttp.responseText); }; ;)
22:46
This is reminding me why I never handcrafted AJAX requests since learning AJAX @Shog9 :-D
@NickCraver I was trying to keep as much of her code in tact as possible
to demonstrate her error
I'm not a newbie, I swear! :-D
back to editing... :-)
@Josh much better. Perhaps some comments describing what you're doing...
@Shog9 working on it :-)
I'm slow at answers, which is part of my low-ish rep :-)
@rchern thanks I just learned the existence of a potentially awesome plugin
updated, working on some more changes
@cosmo0 hehehe
22:51
@Josh, @rchern - If you're working in Chrome make sure to grab PrettyPrint: chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/…
@NickCraver Awesome, thanks! I do most of my JS work in FireFox but our apps will hopefully support Chrome soon
nice thanks
Chrome's speed has me working in it daily, have to stop and close 50-80 windows every once in a while after answering SO stuff for a bit as well, get's a bit cluttered...maybe too easy/fast to open new tabs/windows in Chrome
developer tools will be a bit of an adjustment from firebug though, especially the net tab, much better in FB
@Judy it looks like you left. If you get this, check your question again
@Shog9 thoughts?
I do most of my development in Chrome now. Dev Tools much better than FireBug IMHO
22:57
@Tomalak I've heard others say that. I need to give them another look I suppose :-)
I'm so used to Firebug I feel quite at home there
i'm quite happy with them
@Josh I just hate to see any w3schools references. But, good that you added a reference. Should get her going one way or the other.
@Tom - I agree for the most part, but the net panel in particular has a much better layout in Firebug I think
@Shog9 Got a reference you prefer?
@Nick: Hm, this could indeed use some improvement. It's good enough for me most of the time though
22:58
Wikipedia can be daunting
I can blockquote their reference
@NickCraver Yes, I prefer MDC also. I will edit again :-)
@Josh I believe most of the power of tools come from habits anyway. I use what I'm most comfortable with, if the more powerful tools are not a bip step up.
@Josh Plus Chrome is fast fast fast. Amazing how much you begin to be annoyed by how slow FF is in comparison
i've used chrome since day 1
23:00
same here
firefox had my machine (which isn't that shabby) crawling...i had basically switched back to ie, ha
@Tomalak I'm using Chrome now :-)
Not sure how that regex back reference bug made it into a chrome stable release though, that should have been caught
Nope
@Shog9 and @NickCraver: /w3schools/MDC/ completed
23:02
10
Q: Blockquote glitch in editor in Chrome 6 and 7

Dan TaoUpdate 2010-10-05 Hey guys... I think this is working, now? At least it seems to be for me -- I'm still using Chrome 6 and I have used the blockquote feature a number of times in the past week or so without issue. Can anybody else confirm that this is fixed? I took a look at the Chromium ticket...

@Josh excellent, thanks
hello
this is interesting
@NickCraver, ?
@rchern - The SO issue is a bug in the Chrome regex engine, completely replaced in 6.0
@Paolo - good evenin :)
@NickCraver oh, i see. sorry, i missed this initial comment, so your question quote seemed to come from left field
and i love how that question is a complete dupe but is still open >_<
i had reported it 2 months earlier (: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/56610/…
23:08
the only other annoyance, and maybe it's something I have...when you click inspect element it'll open the elements pane (even switching there directly does this) and the console beneath it will take up all the tools space
yeah
have to vertically resize the tools or collapse the console, very annoying
hit esc
you have to be kidding me
@rchern that's what I wanted to say :P
23:09
@NickCraver Hello sir, how are you doing today?
Kicking ass in jquery and javascript questions I see.
hahaha, thanks @rchern, that would have saved me at least 10 hours of my life so far
@NickCraver, if there's a way to do something without the mouse, chances are i know it (:
@Paolo - pretty good...converting an app linq layer from Oracle to SQL Server at the moment, jQuery's just an SO hobby :)
@Nick I found out only by chance as well :)
@rchern hooray for keyboard shortcuts. too few people are using them these days
have you seen gleeBox?
23:12
I thought that was a Glee plugin for HTPCs before clicking
@rchern No. Installing now. (Did I mention that I love how Chrome loads/unloads extensions dynamically?)
teehee
i feel like i've only scratched the surface with gleeBox and still i think it is fantabulous
If you dig keyboard shortcuts for most things, I highly recommend Slickrun: fiddler2.com/SlickRun
very, very handy, and very light
installing (:
any opinions stable vs beta?
hmm, i guess by installing i meant ready to download, HA
beta all the way? really, stable is for girls. :-P (#scnr)
23:21
um
|:
beta can mean a lot of different things.
incidentally, i run chrome's dev channel
been in beta for years, i've yet to find any bugs though
and fiddler's beta
i'm 82% sure the developer died
but sometimes beta isn't all that stable hehe
o: ):
@Tomalak, kinda seems like you're telling me to run stable (;
@rchern I'd rather not imagine the implications if you do :-D
23:24
huh?
It would imply you are a girl. That would break my system. ;-)
@rchern oh wow, new version...guess he's alive
don't look closely at my gravatar then?
@Nick, the beta link on the homepage does not match the link in the group message
23:27
is Eric the real developer or someone new?
dunno actually
ah, that answers whether or not the beta i dl'd was the same then
I must run though, food beckons, goodnight all :)
nite @NickCraver
@rchern gleeBox has some ugly side effects in my Chrome :-/
how so?
23:34
dunno
erratic behavior and rendering issues on pages
hmm
don't think i've seen this
the box does not appear hovering over the content in some pages, but below instead, incl. scrolling to the bottom when you type "g" for example
example link?
maybe the noscript extension interferes? hmm
oeffingerfreidenker.blogspot.com/2010/10/vetternregierung.html is completely broken since I installed gleeBox and restarted the browser for example
seems fine for me
disable noscript and try again?
23:39
yeah I suppose it's the noscript extension that makes trouble
yes that fixes it. now what to prefer? noscript or gleebox? :D
on a ticket related to firefox the author says it doesn't work when block all is used in noscript github.com/glee/glee/issues/labels/Firefox#issue/110
@rchern I'm using a Chrome variant of noscript but I guess it's more or less the same issue. noscript is kinda like deliberately shooing yourself in the foot, but then again it has its positive sides
sure
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