« first day (761 days earlier)      last day (4412 days later) » 

09:00
The question is, what do we do now?
Oh, Firefox OS.
@Neil whatever the fuck you want :D
programmers need limits to program well, at least that's my idea
@Neil true
I thought you read that on the Android website somewhere. Didn't quite make sense there. :D
09:00
Being able to do anything means writing programs that lack structure
but still now nothing stops your except for computational power limit
anyways i need money .. i am broke
@OctavianDamiean Think of it this way
so i better run to the bank see ya my awesome family ;D
09:01
Suppose rather than being able to modify css properties to make a box rotate in 3d space, you were given all the functionality of OpenGL
@Abhishek I'm worried you turned us from lovers to family
@Neil you are talking about WebGL
@Zirak something like this feels nice, right? jsbin.com/egawex/1/edit
@Zirak you guys are kinda both
09:02
WebGL then.. my point is, it's a burden if all you wanted to do is rotate in 3d space
Now Web C L... that will be interesting
@Abhishek Creepy.
it makes it more complicated, not simpler, and ultimately simplicity is what allows a programmer to do more for his time
@phenomnomnominal NaCL you mean ?
@Neil true
webGL is a friken mess
took me about 3 days to understand what the fuck am i doing
That's all I meant
09:03
Nah, Khronos is working on a Web port of OpenCL
@FlorianMargaine neat, something like that
and i barely got a 3d cube
@Abhishek Have you tried three.js?
@FlorianMargaine You know that's buggy, right?
Of course, if you need to do something you couldn't do with css3, then you're going to need to delve into more complicated libraries
09:03
@AmaanCheval of course
But that's a disadvantage, not an advantage imo
@AmaanCheval I just did it in 5 minutes
@Neil It's a matter of getting used to and a handful of libraries to do the grunt work for you.
@phenomnomnominal i wanted to learn WebGL
@Abhishek I want to now
09:04
not abuse it
i learnt jQuery before javascript
learningwebgl.com is what Paul Lewis recommended
and in this room i realized the fuck code i was writing
@OctavianDamiean If you were dealing with these libraries often, you'd probably write a simple boiler plate to do things you do often with the call of methods and reuse these methods in multiple projects
But what you'd be doing is essentially building limitations
09:05
Oh noes!
slaps @Abhishek for that stupid comment
You limit yourself so that you can build on existing code3
writing everything from scratch is inefficient, like writing assembly
@Neil I don't quite see how you'd be limit yourself.
@OctavianDamiean what the ??
@OctavianDamiean I mean, for lack of a better example, if you wanted to write a slideshow presentation using webGL (for 3d support)
09:06
with my straight way jQuery code i ran straight into raynos :-|
@Neil Why? If you have several levels of abstraction, and you choose the one which suits you, that's the opposite of limiting yourself
I would use impress.js
@phenomnomnominal thats cool
Because why waste my time reinventing the wheel
@phenomnomnominal when u have to use it for job its great
09:07
Maybe you'd write an interface like "makeSlide(title, slideText, function() { effects here... });"
but when u wanna learn its shit
That's true
That is limiting what a slide can do, yet you yourself have defined that limitation
then :P
The "reinventing the wheel" argument is probably the most stupidest shit I've heard in all my life
2
09:07
@Zirak + over 9000
yes
cause u always die in a block hole
Human society didn't advance by repeatedly making the same shit over and over
its matter of personal choice
Really?
So you're still using the same wheel from 1000 BC?
09:08
uh oh... in 3 2 ..
@phenomnomnominal this might interest you github.com/bartaz/impress.js/pull/153 :p it didn't make it in, but still useful
Or was the wheel re-invented hundreds of hundreds of times?
@Abhishek You learnt jQuery before you learnt JavaScript? The fuck's that supposed to mean? You realize that's bollocks?
We all do it.. it is silly to rewrite everything from low level code
Or were methods of transmiting electrical current refined over and over and over?
09:08
@OctavianDamiean i was bullocks at that time
@FlorianMargaine, nice, that looks like it would be really useful
@Abhishek I mean that statement is bollocks.
but in order to do so, we have to limit what we're capable of if we want to get an advantage reusing code
its just a method of expression , i was using jQuery much before i understood basics of javascript
0
Q: jQuery Math Issue

xtiaanI have been trying to work this out with no luck. I have a variable that scales up and down from 221 to 915. When the variable is at 221, id like it to equal 0, and when it reaches 915, i'd like it to equal 88. So, 221 incrementing up to 915 will be represented by 0 incrementing up to 88. decima...

09:09
LOL
JQUERY MATH ISSUE.
LOLOL
@Neil That's a difference in abstraction levels
-1 Needs more jQuery
09:09
So yeah, if you only made very high-level stuff available of course you can't absolutely tweak it for your needs
@Zirak Call it what you will. High-level code means being able to control less but doing more
But, writing high-level interfaces is not mutually exclusive to low-level interfaces
It's all on how much you expose
@Neil no, you don't do more when controlling less. You just do less quicker
or something like that
it's a matter of speed, not a matter of doing more/less
@FlorianMargaine Well do more per instruction.. I don't mean program execution speed
.sort, for instance, has a higher level interface of doing it for you. But it also accepts a function so you can do it your way
09:11
I'm referring to programming speed
0
Q: Change menu item state based on position on page?

swayI'm working on a one-page site, but haven't been able to figure out how to make the menu know where I am and highlight that section based on position on the page. For example, on this site, whether you scroll down or click on the navigation, it automagically highlights what section you're on in ...

Great code. Really effective usage of the jQuery math library. — Lusitanian 13 secs ago
Or really, anything I try to write, I write with nearly no privacy so you (the developer) can use and abuse it in whichever way you like, but I do provide optional sugar on top
My point is, that if you actually design things as layers, you'll only have to choose which layer to use, and not be forced to use one.
09:13
@tereško Wow
Morning ALl
@Zirak That's true, but don't mistake that for more control. That's flexibility
You choose your level of control by choosing your layer
@phenomnomnominal btw, if you want to use impress.js, see the "impress.js builders" out there, it's really long and tedious to do everything by yourself (I know it, I did it for my final year presentation)
I used Strut?
I did the same thing
Exactly. And if you can play with the chosen layer, and I mean really play with it (change how it works and shit), you basically take charge of all the higher levels as well
09:14
@phenomnomnominal Also, if you want to control it using your phone or something, use @FlorianMargaine's awesome extension :p
CAN WE call a code behind method using javascript
@AmaanCheval haha :p
@Zirak If you're playing with the lower levels to boost the higher levels, you're ultimately programming in the lower levels and thus you lose any advantage you'd have just programming in the higher levels
Ajax :S
09:15
@Neil Why? You extend your possibilities in the higher levels.
@OctavianDamiean Yeah, but if you spend all your time extending your possibilities in the higher levels by working in the lower levels, it's the same thing as working purely in the lower levels for what concerns time
@Neil uh, yeah. that's the trade-off
Actually it's worse because you then have to program the higher levels to use the lower levels.. but you do it for reuse
@Neil Well, you spend some time in the lower levels to extend your possibilities in the higher levels so you don't have to come back ans spend more time in the lower levels.
How's that worse?
@OctavianDamiean It's worse time-wise
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying not to do so.. that's my whole point in fact.. You make methods to handle the things you don't normally change so that you don't have to do so everytime
09:20
I mean that's just how the IT engineering field works and always did. There's no unicorns and other magic creatures that power your software which automagically adapt to your needs, you obviously have to do it yourself if you are fortunate enough to work with a technology that is open source of course.
However, you limit what you can do by choice
@Neil no, because it'd take more time to find a way to extend the high level without touching the low level, if the low level doesn't provide enough control
@OctavianDamiean there's no unicorn?! LIE!
The limits are completely artificial. If I tie my hands and burn my house down, of course I'm gonna have a harder time programming
Unfortunately I've found no unicorns in code yet. :(
@FlorianMargaine That's one way to go about it that would take more time.. there is another way still, which is never trying to abstract.. that takes less time
09:22
But that's irrelevant to the system you're maneuvering in
@Neil Not trying to abstract takes less time?
@Zirak Limits are self-imposed, but it's not a handicap
I think you're wrong here.
@OctavianDamiean there you go jsbin.com/uqepas/1/edit
2
@OctavianDamiean So writing low-level + high level takes less time than writing just low-level?
You do it for re-use.. that's the reason and that's why you do it
09:23
You do it because it's a different kind of thought
@Neil Yes, because you invest some time in the low level part to make use of the time saving high level part.
@FlorianMargaine SHIT! A UNICORN!
@OctavianDamiean We're trained to work like that because of the obvious advantage in doing so, but someone mislead you if they told you it was because it is faster to write high level abstraction and low-level
But at no point are you actually limited, you may be having a harder time, but on a sufficiently abstracted platform, you really can do anything.
This is totally meta.
@OctavianDamiean HOW DARE YOU SAY SHIT AND UNICORN IN THE SAME SENTENCE
09:25
"Fuck, I just stepped in unicorn shit"
@Zirak Let me give you an example. You have a method called "getConnection" which loads drivers, loads from a property file connection information, and queries a connection to the database and returns it.
Mmm, unicorn shit.
!!/define Unicorn Shit
@FlorianMargaine Unicorns are the shit.
@Zirak unicorns don't poop
hm
You have the advantage that you can call that method and get the connection without worrying about the details after that.. however you cannot, for example, make getConnection also test the connection prior to making the connection first
09:25
@AmaanCheval I'm so going to flag that as offensive.
They do. But they poop nyancats and rainbows.
they may poop rainbows though
Anyone want to start a band with me? I'm thinking "Unicorn Shit"
that requires you to rewrite getConnection and thereby changing it everywhere
@OctavianDamiean The shit!
09:26
You lose control.. you'd have to write yet another method getAndTestConnection
!!/tell OctavianDamiean urban the shit
However that is an acceptable loss in control that lets you work faster
@Neil All examples are irrelevant because they define a specific point in a system, not the system itself. But using your example, you build a different version of getConnection. That's not losing control. The fact you can do that shows you don't have that limit
You probably won't need to test the connection, so you leave getConnection as it is. As a result you are more productive as a programmer
09:26
@AmaanCheval @FlorianMargaine Running now
@AmaanCheval the shit The best. This word is very interesting. The important part of it is without THE, an entirely different meaning applies. My teacher is shit= bad teacher. My teacher is THE shit = greatest teacher
@AmaanCheval the shit The best. This word is very interesting. The important part of it is without THE, an entirely different meaning applies. My teacher is shit= bad teacher. My teacher is THE shit = greatest teacher
I'm stopping mine then
@OctavianDamiean the shit The best. This word is very interesting. The important part of it is without THE, an entirely different meaning applies. My teacher is shit= bad teacher. My teacher is THE shit = greatest teacher
@Neil Without diving into deeper pattern discussions, there's proxies which can do that for you. Depending on the language though.
09:28
@Zirak In order to truly lose no control, you'd have to write a method "getDrivers" and another "getConnectionProperties" and finally "getConnection" passing both the drivers and the connection properties
@Zirak, the bot's eval works aye?
But you are not writing high level code
Oh I didn't notice the "the".
... my male rat gave birth to 14 baby rats.
No shit man. Writing higher-level code lets you do less things?
09:29
If I wanted to perform some operation between getting the drivers and loading the conection properties, the only true way to do that is to make each call separate
Abstractions are funnels. If you're not happy with them, get a different one
But that's only possible if there's a funnel store. So build a funnel store.
@Zirak Then we're in agreement. Not sure what you're arguing then. That was my whole point. High level programming means self-imposing limits
And then you can get all the funnels you want.
Glad you finally agree with me
~_~
09:29
I disagree with you both.
And also neither of you.
Build a funnel store, and you inadvertantly rewrite low-level code
I don't really have my own opinions :(
If every possibility is coded into a method, you've done nothing but make a wrapper for every low level method call
I still fail to understand how higher level code is limiting you in any way.
@phenomnomnominal sucker
09:30
You must say, "these instructions will always be run together", and therefore, by calling that method, you accept that you cannot call them in separate moments.
That is one of many ways of limiting yourself
@OctavianDamiean higher level code is abstraction -> you don't have access to everything the lower level gives you
so if the abstraction is badly done, it can severly limit you
@FlorianMargaine That's just limiting you downwards not upwards or on the same level though.
Things can be higher level without abstraction though right?
@phenomnomnominal Depends on your definition of abstraction, but I would say no
I mean, relative to the point we are at now
09:32
@FlorianMargaine We all agree that if something is shit it's ... well ... shit. That's not what we're debating here, I hope.
Grouping sequences of instructions in of itself is an abstraction
@OctavianDamiean jsbin.com/ugasey/1/edit you can't reach usefulMethod in the higher level
that's what I mean by "limiting"
@FlorianMargaine We're down to hairsplitting now.
This is an example of scope.
09:35
@OctavianDamiean scope is a manner of abstraction
@OctavianDamiean YOU LIE! THIS IS ABOUT THE MATRIX!
what Neil said ^
@Neil It sure is but not the kind of abstraction we're talking about.
this is to illustrate, you get the idea
09:35
That's abstraction on the same level.
@OctavianDamiean That's the kind of abstraction I'm talking about. What kind of abstraction are you talking about?
Wait a minute, we were talking about adding an additional abstraction layer on the same abstraction level?
Abstraction could mean writing a method to do many operations or it could mean hiding information from the caller, even if the caller is you
I thought we were discussing the drawbacks of having to got one step deeper to add or fix something for n + 1 abstraction levels.
@OctavianDamiean No, abstraction period. Anything considered an abstraction is a limitation of one's ability to do everything you could without said abstraction
09:37
@OctavianDamiean which can also be seen in the example
I was talking about abstraction in general, and "same level" is relative too
soooo
now let's stop talking, I got some work to do
So that'd mean that if method A alone can't do what method C can do in combination with method A and B then that's a form of limiting yourself?
The best (as in, most easily understood) example of abstraction is garbage collection. You can have (a)no garbage collection at all (low-level), (b)automatic garbage collection (high-level), (c)automatic garbage collection with access to memory (low and high)
(d) use the stack and don't bother about garbage collection
OH BURRRRN
:>
Of course, there are many more cases, as the memory doesn't have to be available but the GC can have methods to call it and so forth
@FlorianMargaine You just "oh burrnn"ed yourself.
09:41
Yea, I'm well aware of the memory management example, coming from the Java world and also having experience in C/C++. :)
That's...that's pretty sad
@OctavianDamiean If method C calls methods A and B, and A and B are hidden to caller of C, then yes, you've limited your ability to call A and B in any sequence at any time
If A, B, and C methods are all available, you've not performed true abstraction
@Neil Now, I understand what you mean. Yes, that's obviously true.
Seems I misunderstood where we started off.
@FlorianMargaine It was pretty funny
meh, it is, it's also shameful :p
09:43
Too soon?
yeah, you can talk about it when I'll have recovered
@OctavianDamiean *head nod* ok good. Probably you were thinking A,B, and C offered all the control of A and B and the abstraction of C
and found nice excuses such as "I was a noob", "I was tired"...
@phenomnomnominal random award!
It was getting too intense for me. So I ran.
@FlorianMargaine Oh dude, that's awesome. Could have totally used that.
I hate when people think you're just using Prezi.
That's so 2011.
I updated my code: jsfiddle.net/RF6df/48 "current" is now a class, not an ID. But now I can't close my container when I click on "current" thumbnail. I'm learning the hard way...
@phenomnomnominal hahaha
@phenomnomnominal prezi doesn't do 3D :)
It's a bit of an abstraction... but it does the trick :P
@phenomnomnominal nope, it didn't exist when I did my prez ^^
but I heard of it, yes
09:50
I made mine with it
hm
isn't it possible to 3d-rotate with strut?
It is, it's fairly unintuitive though.
There's an interface for an individual 'slide' then there a (for lack of a better word) global interface where you can manipulate the whole infinite canvas
@phenomnomnominal how? I'm not seeing it :/
ah, got it
it's kinda buggy though
Very
But a fairly good start I think
09:53
It uses local storage which is a nice touch
ah, yeah
so yeah I tried using it for my fyp presentation
aaand... I spent some time on it
Good god I hate stupid people ... people which don't think when deciding on ID names ...
like, 2 weeks or so
then I realized it took way too much time and redid the whole thing in 2 hours with keynote
Haha ouch. I was running quite behind on my fyp presentation and I managed to do it in 2 days with strut?
@OctavianDamiean ...?
09:55
you mean like <div id='OctavianDamieanIsDumb'></div>
Yeah, people are fuckwits.
@Zirak Meh, a project I'm working on. A website which was designed by someone clearly lacking a brain.
<div class="row" id="right23">
The entire page is full of such meaningful IDs ...
facepalm I didn't even think of html IDs
<ul id='ul4'>
    <li id='li1'>
    <li id='li2'>
    ...
    <li id='li5318008'>
</ul>
4
Hi guys
Great example of stupidity.

« first day (761 days earlier)      last day (4412 days later) »