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3:01 PM
@Neoares yep that's my little stackoverfiow baby
 
<3
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier what you on about?
Do you have a baby? Can it do any tricks?
 
guys I have a dynamic list and I want to add things to it, problem is that the things I want to add to it are huge, like seriously extremely huge, 212 Lines
 
212 isn't what I'd call "extremely huge"
"moderately not small" is a more apt description
 
3:08 PM
cool cool. I mean, uncalled for and not funny due to the current date
 
hm kay, how should I add it then?
 
@Zirak not even as inches?
 
but meh
 
@towc uh killjoy
 
no ur family
 
3:09 PM
@KendallFrey See previous description
 
@Zirak im feeling insecure now, thanks
 
@AltayAkkus How are you currently adding them? Have you actually experienced problems?
 
no but It just feels bad
 
any new fun resources for learning rust?
 
@KamilSolecki the pleb with only 180, eh?
 
3:10 PM
@KendallFrey :'(
 
@KamilSolecki Welcome to Club 200
 
@towc thermite
 
editing out in case it's seen as a rant
 
3:14 PM
5600 Characters, @Zirak
how should I add it?
 
@KendallFrey this? github.com/malept/thermite
 
@AltayAkkus How did you think of adding them?
 
appending
with the string in the command
but it feels bad
 
Thermite () is a pyrotechnic composition of metal powder, which serves as fuel, and metal oxide. When ignited by heat, thermite undergoes an exothermic reduction-oxidation (redox) reaction. Most varieties are not explosive, but can create brief bursts of heat and high temperature in a small area. Its form of action is similar to that of other fuel-oxidizer mixtures, such as black powder. Thermites have diverse compositions. Fuels include aluminium, magnesium, titanium, zinc, silicon, and boron. Aluminium is common because of its high boiling point and low cost. Oxidizers include bismuth(III) oxide...
 
oh wait, it was a joke
 
3:15 PM
@KendallFrey lmao the fact that there actually was a Rust thing called thermite
 
lol
if I add Aluminium Grey too my rust site, is it Thermite then xddd
 
@Zirak @Ikari OW?
 
I trusted you kendall
 
now? gimme ~5 minutes
 
@KamilSolecki they're not that fat
 
3:18 PM
you dont know that
 
I weigh around 60kg last time I measured
 
@KamilSolecki maybe a bit later
 
lol nice
 
@KamilSolecki im ingame
 
3:41 PM
@Zirak damnit I'm too good at that
 
@Ikari carp Im leaving now
Ill be back later
 
4:03 PM
so does anyone have advice
I need to add an html object thats extremely long
 
how long?
 
extremely
 
I don't negotiate with extremelyists
 
that's an extreme opinion
 
So I joined @StackOverflow chat for the first time today, they were talking about prostitutes. I called them on it as potentially not being very welcoming (related to https://stackoverflow.blog/2018/04/26/stack-overflow-isnt-very-welcoming-its-time-for-that-to-change/) and I was kicked from the channel I just don't even know where to start with this 😔
April Wensel is on it
 
4:14 PM
lmao
 
it's because of her post on Medium that the SE staff wrote the 'Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming' blog piece
 
@GabrielRomon who?
 
the post where they attacked and discredited own their community managers? 😬
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum the author of this , which triggered this
 
4:21 PM
oh geez
 
"exactly" and "clearly" are warning signs?
 
It's as if it's not understanding that the people writing the answers aren't burned
It's as if it's not understanding that people who write answers pour their time to help people and that it's an expectation alignment problem
 
@GabrielRomon thank you for posting that
I assumed everyone here knew that, but I guess not heh
 
stack traces should be exact, unless something has gone wrong
 
It's as if this is something that can be addressed without alleviating the pain people writing answers are in
It's as if you can solve this without making the lives of those people easier
 
4:22 PM
@Loktar it was deleted after it was posted yesterday, which has been referenced as a strike against us. for lord knows what reason
 
People who write comments like that are sick of constantly being attacked and it drives them away.
 
@rlemon wait what?
 
@KimCrayton1 @StackOverflow Originally I felt bad for sharing 😔 some parts that we deleted from the subsequent conversation was the fact that they shared my tweet in the channel and started "piling on" saying things like "called it" regarding me being a troll. This toxicity makes you doubt yourself 😭
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum the burnout rate for high rep users is terrible
 
O.o
 
4:23 PM
I don't feel it is inappropriate to discuss someone tweeting about our community
 
Let's not create a culture where programmers are taught to not be curious and let's not hand feed them because that would be our demise.
 
they're doing it in a public space.
 
@rlemon ugh, the emojis make it feel like a 4 year old is writing a letter to his principle
 
We have a moral responsibility to not help grow a generation of programmers who don't understand the value of genuine curiosity and frustration solving a problem requires.
 
The solution isn't to welcome unanswerable questions on SO, it's to teach people how to ask good questions before they get here.
 
4:24 PM
@KendallFrey setting a bar is, by definition, excluding people
 
@Zirak 👌
 
I feel like the suggested dupes could be better. but I have not enough programming knowledge to know how hard that would be to fix
 
some people turn technical bars into personal ones
 
I've never had "related questions" show me anything useful
 
@ssube exactly
 
4:25 PM
By all means, we do need to be more welcoming - but the reason people aren't welcoming isn't that people aren't nice - it's that it would be unreasonable to expect them to be nice when not treated to the same courtesy.
 
@ssube I don't think there is anything anyone can do about that in general
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum exactly.
 
I bet having a lecture on Asking Questions on Stack Overflow in every programming class would be a good thing
And of course its prerequisite, How to Debug Your Code
 
@KendallFrey there's some truth to solving the underlying problems (racism, etc) but that won't totally fix it
 
@ssube on the internet everyone is a dog.
 
4:29 PM
it's ironic that he showed up with an agenda, wanting to prove SO was bad, and then get others to pile on
 
Well racism and sexism are a completely different issue besides technical skill
I don't know how big an issue it is, but I haven't noticed it nearly as much as the technical bits
 
Well, I’ve learned how to remove the gas tank, take out and clean all 4 spark plugs, and how to get to the battery, all before I’ve even riden the damn bike
 
We were still very aggressive and willing to prove his point
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum there has been frequent and recent trolling here
the policy now is to kick first ask questions later, remember a KICK is NOT a punishment
 
I’ve never seen trolling here before ever
 
4:31 PM
Right, so we assumed he was a troll - that's the unwelcoming part.
 
Imagine walking into a coffee shop and overhearing a group of guys talking about prostitution. They're not gonna be too happy if you walk up to them and tell them you're offended and they should stop.
 
how many times have we heard kick is not a punishment? However it's being perceived as one?
 
HAMMERTIME!
 
we are a very high traffic room, and to detour the noise of trolling or arguments we'd have to kick a lot more. that has almost always resulted in other drama surrounding the kicks. most recently we're still getting occasional shit from The One Who Made
 
I missed most of the conversation but that's the analogy that came to my mind
 
4:32 PM
@Loktar you would expect someone not from the room to perceive a kick as welcoming?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum idk maybe people should drop the BS that a kick isn't a punishment then?
 
@KendallFrey they are, that wasn't my point
 
@rlemon yeah and the trolls are shit
 
because it clearly is.
 
it's the problem with false accusations when real ones are common, they're less egregious and less scrutinized
 
4:33 PM
However it's the only tool ROs have to stop issues from continuing
 
@Loktar If only there was a way to display a message to kickees
 
@KendallFrey yeah that would be nice actually
 
But there wasn't an issue - there was a rather aggressive conversation that could have died out naturally by deescalating it
 
@rlemon within a few hours of the blog post going up, we got... a half-dozen trolls? related to that alone
 
Kicking and the way we responded in that scenario caused a bunch of the escalation
 
4:34 PM
@Loktar Yeah even if it was just generic to the room
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum we're not psychiatrists in here, we're just people using a chatroom.
 
Even if the user came with a condescending agenda, we don't have to prove their point
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum it was also pretty much by the book
multiple warnings, mod warnings, kick
 
@Loktar psychologists*
 
@ndugger psychos!
 
4:34 PM
@Loktar I'm not accusing anyone of misbehavior - I'm trying to figure out how to stop shit from hitting the fan in the future.
 
I do like @KamilSolecki's suggestion from this morning that a freeze would've helped
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum the only reason it hit any fan is because of the recent blog article and the crying about a kick on twitter.
 
if we had frozen, linked the original (news article) post, and then dropped it, we would've been fine
 
@Loktar speak for yourself
 
> Guys I joined a chat, told them they were all wrong, and they kicked me out 😬
 
4:35 PM
I wasn't a participant, and I looked at all of the deleted messages. This is being painted as black and white on Twitter when it wasn't. The user was warned, a mod told him it was fine, no one insulted him (yes there was TWO, TWO questionable comments. we can deal with two users, that isn't the room). There was no point in escalating things.
 
@Loktar yeah, but that puts unreasonable pressure on SE employees to respond by behaving the way shog did last time.
 
@Loktar but expecting twitter not to get angry is like expecting fire not to be hot
 
> They said a lot of mean stuff too that they deleted, so no proof!
 
I agree, it really feels like someone was looking for offence
 
the short-format makes sure that you can't explain yourself and everyone is angry
 
4:36 PM
@ssube people are just looking to be angry at something.
@rlemon oh for sure
 
that's why they're on twitter :)
 
I don't think that was the case here
 
Rabble rabble rabble
 
@rlemon opening with the blog post was indicative of that
 
@ndugger garble garble
 
4:37 PM
The person kept saying they were banned too.. it was a 60 second kick. I wasn't actually part of the discussion fortunately but looking at it, it was all quite silly.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum if that wasn't the case, why did he completely ignore Madara in favor of escalating further?
 
Wait, did someone take to twitter about this room specifically?
 
the comments about the deleted content being overtly nasty is not true at all. the only deleted message that was a target to the user was "I called it" about the tweet going out.
@ndugger yes
 
@ndugger yes. ^
 
Oh, nice
 
4:38 PM
I don't like where SO is going. I just hope it doesn't result in changes to the other SE sites
 
Link?
 
@Loktar since when do we have 30 second kicks?
 
We are gonna be famous \o/
 
To be clear - I agree StackOverflow has a problem of being unwelcoming which has kept driving some people out and keeping them out. I disagree with the way they propose to fix it. I think the way to fix it is to give people who answer questions more opportunities to be gracious by improving their experience.
 
@KendallFrey idk dude how long is the initial kick?
 
4:38 PM
1 minute
 
I know kick 2 is 5 mins right?
 
1/5/30
 
1 minute, 5, 30
 
60 seconds iirc
 
then 5 then 30
and always 30 after that
 
4:39 PM
shit ok I guess that extra 30 seconds makes the difference
 
aw
 
basically a ban.
 
@ssube because he was unfamiliar with the room rules? He just saw something that bothered him and jumped the gun - I think that if we calmly explained the situation to him it wouldn't have escalated.
 
Sorry I retract my statement
 
but by that point madara usually shows up :P
 
4:39 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum in my opinion, the problems aren’t specific to stackoverflow. I think it’s how social circles in programming are, from what I’ve seen.
 
Tim Cook was watching me
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I think we (me and Madara) did calmly explain it, more than once.
 
so I had to cover my tracks
 
lmao
 
@KendallFrey lmao dude... Rlemon alerted me to that last night.. then I saw your comment and died
 
4:39 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum I don't. I read the convo you had in the other room, he wasn't having any of the 'excuses', but appreciated you reaching out. that isn't the same as "yes, you are correct. I maybe jumped the gun and so did everyone else"
 
He chose to ignore us and focus on the peanut gallery
 
was laughing in the restaurant
 
@ndugger it's as general as human communication and community forming itself
 
@Loktar wait so i wasn't the first person to make the joke? damn
 
no you were, he alerted me to your joke 😋 on hangouts
 
4:40 PM
@KendallFrey you were, but I didn't see your github reply
 
oh ok
 
I saw his post, laughed, pinged him, saw yours.
 
!!^5
 
@rlemon I'm not on his side, I think he was very rude - but I don't really care about him. I care about the room though so I'm looking at what we could have done differently.
 
4:40 PM
._.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Sorry, that's not how I read that situation (in retrospect). He came in to an unknown group seemingly at random (did he previously contribute to the room?), told the group that they're bad people and shouldn't talk about the things they're talking, and demanded they change their tone. This case was handled too delicately
 
I think that user was to blame for what happened and not us but that doesn't mean we can't prevent the next case.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum honestly the only reason anyone cares at all is because of the current climate and that it went to twitter.
 
that's where my mixed feelings come from. This was clearly a troll, but that bad press is bad.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum and I agree, I believe I said as much on github (or if that didn't come through, I meant to) -- however we are dealing with a specific issue now, so I want to tackle that first.
 
4:41 PM
we've had plenty of people come in and tell us to change the convo to JS
 
and in general, I agree with the larger problem
 
@Loktar right, it wouldn't be a priority IMO otherwise.
 
even if it is a part of something we have to discuss as a whole
 
If another person comes along and demands we change, then he should also be excluded
 
^
 
4:42 PM
@Zirak TheTobiWhoTweeted did that
 
59 secs ago, by Benjamin Gruenbaum
I think that user was to blame for what happened and not us but that doesn't mean we can't prevent the next case.
 
THE ONLY thing that is shitty is that people were talking about strippers and hookers
 
49 secs ago, by Zirak
If another person comes along and demands we change, then he should also be excluded
 
tbh it should stay somewhat professional if possible I mean that's the only piece that makes the entire thing look bad imo.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum and we should definitely try to prevent any more egg on SO's face
 
4:42 PM
to quote myself:
> I read over everything, including the conversation with Benji, and I've come to think that the room overall jumped a bit fast to not explain or link policies we were enforcing.
 
@ssube definitely.
 
@Loktar my only concern with that is that keeping it "professional" will bite a few people
and they'll feel biased against
 
@Zirak just not in a way that would stir shit up
 
most people will have no problem, no kicks, but a few people can't keep it above our currently-low bar
 
@ssube right, I don't even think professional is the right word, no talk of drugs or overtly sexual subjects
 
4:43 PM
those also tend to be the most vocal when kicked
 
@Loktar eh. While SO chat should be always on topic, this is also not on topic. It's a community. If SO only wants purely technical talk (like in super specialised irc rooms or some gitter.im/slack communities or whatever) then mods need to tell us that so we can leave and there won't be any more chat
 
@Loktar I'm on board, I think it will help, I just think a few people will have their feelings hurt
 
@Zirak I agree. can't help people if chats are boring and we dont' look at them
 
@Zirak yeah for sure I 100% agree man, I'm just looking at it from the outside people on twitter are like "OMG HOOKERS?!"
 
@Zirak there's a difference between technical off-topic (Java, PHP, Basic, printing, plants, cars) and NSFW off-topic (hookers and blow).
 
Wonder how long they waited around for that kind of discussion to crop up to become angry.
 
@Loktar "HOOKERS!? In MY chat room!?"
 
If we go this route, we need to make some examples and be clear about what we're getting rid of.
 
@Loktar I don't think we should censor - we can agree to be respectful and stop when asked and that could suffice
 
and not sure why talking about the sex industry is such a terrible thing anyway. But meh.
 
4:45 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum that makes it too complicated and opinionated
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum we shouldn't be stopping discussions for random new users.
What if someone hates Overwatch and it offends them?
 
@Loktar it's not, especially if not done in a disrespecful way
 
we need to have consistent rules, regardless of who is around
 
There is absolutely no way to not talk about what's going to offend someone
 
we can change conversations, we do it all the time. but they need to be steered there, not demanded they stop or shamed into stopping.
 
4:45 PM
when someone is offended... remember THEY are offended, they are the one currently holding onto the offense...
 
@Loktar that's right, we shouldn't - but we should be willing to calmly explain ourselves if new users come and "demand answers".
 
we need to be clear about what is ok and what is discouraged
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I can agree with that, point them to the rules for sure
 
A page in our FAQ?
 
^
ok: printing, space
 
4:46 PM
@rlemon yeah, exactly
 
^++ second this
 
An faq page or specific paragraphs could work.
 
not ok: drugs, sex
if you have to: java scripting
 
I'm fine with drugs and sex
3
 
in certain contexts
 
4:46 PM
I like the occasional weed discussion
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum we should github it for a bit, collect a list
 
I mean tbh I'm not against that either, but I can see how those would be "taboo" subjects
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Especially together
 
tbh, I think weed is less controversial than sex now
 
even though sex is how we all exist..
 
4:47 PM
it's also way less touchy of a subject
 
there's a difference between talking about some social topic and talking about in detail your last date. There is a line, but it gets blurry near the edges
 
weed is legal in big parts of the world - if we exclude it then exclude alcohol with it and caffeine probably
 
@Loktar illegal weed and illegal sex, specifically
weed doesn't kill, doritoes do
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum so is sex :/
I mean paid for sex...
lol man we are all programmers
we all analyze the shit out of everything
 
I'm fine with discussion of sex as long as we're not being dicks about it.
 
4:48 PM
:P
 
I think it's a lot easier to say "keep it mostly professional"
 
that's just what we do... idk man, it's just frustrating.
 
yeah talking about prostitution isn't bad, it can be interesting all around if handled well
 
because you're unlikely to get fired for mentioning weed, but details are bad
 
exactly ^ @Zirak
 
4:48 PM
1 min ago, by rlemon
there's a difference between talking about some social topic and talking about in detail your last date. There is a line, but it gets blurry near the edges
 
!!s/weed/Doritos/
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum because you're unlikely to get fired for mentioning Doritos, but details are bad (source)
 
is talking about animu fine here, sometimes?
 
@Ikari no
 
@Ikari only when Madara is around to protect you
 
4:49 PM
if porn is out, animes are right out
 
:42315359 some fucktard
 
:'(
 
@Zirak 😬 you're right
 
the last thing we need is somebody seeing your posts and thinking we're all diddlers
 
umm...
 
4:50 PM
@ssube We need to compile a list of the room's diddlers
 
@Ikari don't umm us, we've been to maid cafe
 
Diddler's List
 
@Zirak I sure hope it's a short list
ideally < 1 items
otherwise we're gonna have some more voting to do
 
anyway, like always, intangible problem, intangible solutions, carry on carrying on?
 
Until we cannot carry on any longer.
 
4:53 PM
ded?
 
!!s/any.*/my wayward son/
 
then the fire nation will attack
 
@rlemon Until we cannot carry on my wayward son (source)
 
fuck, now that's gonna be stuck in my head all day
what's with old songs getting so stuck?
 
radio
you've heard them 10,000 times
!!afk greenhouse
 
4:55 PM
It was before song magic was all used up, the magic was stronger then.
 
mfw someone mentions some retro song, and I do not know the reference
 
Then rap came along...
and then anime..
 
Is that really something you want online?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum it's a private repo is it not?
 
5:00 PM
No, it is not
Oh wait, it is
Forget I said anything
 
lol deleted anyway
yeah you had me worried for a second that maybe Tim Cook really could see it.
 
what was it about? :3
 
@Loktar Quite ironic, given the name
 
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kerbal is on humble bundle now
 
5:14 PM
@SterlingArcher wohoo first golf day this year!
 
@KamilSolecki SterlingArcher is afk: beach
 
@KamilSolecki you've finally hit retirement?
 
is golf fun?
 
5:22 PM
Code golf is fun
 
@Ikari if you like hard things lenny
It can be super frustrating
But also super fulfilling if you doing good
 
I've played Golf It with some friends, and it was fun
 
5:49 PM
hi
 
hello
 
6:28 PM
so, mmiszy seems to feel very emotional about the kick to the guy yesterday
I really thought of him as reasonable
does someone know if something happened to him?
 
who
 
he used to be a regular here. I don't know if you were around back then
he pretty much mentored me through basic frontend web dev
maybe 3 years ago
 
who
 
you were definitely there
MMiszy used to be the nick, I think
he now blocked me on twitter, but look through the replies to ate_red's tweet or whatever that guy's name was, if you're curious. He cc-ed me there
I asked him why he cc-ed me there, I think nicely, and he ranted about how bad SO is, and that I'm a bully
I tried to explain that there really wasn't much to that, but he thinks I'm a bully and ended up blocking me
I guess something radical happened to him, or he's having a bad day?
he didn't use to be like that afaik
which is why I'm asking
 
6:45 PM
I have no idea who that is :P
 
you were definitely not here :P
 
Does jQuery.fadeIn set the display to unset?
 
he's polish btw
 
@VioAriton Welcome to the JavaScript chat! Please review the room rules. Please don't ask if you can ask or if anyone's around; just ask your question, and if anyone's free and interested they'll help.
 
actually came to BA when badger/copy were here, just after you came
 
6:46 PM
it sets the display to whatever it was prior
 
for a conference
 
supposedly
 
@VioAriton did you try checking the docs?
 
yeah it doesn't mention anything
about the display
 
it probably doesn't use it then
what else does it mention?
 
6:50 PM
@VioAriton Aside from trying it out, you can see it here: Go to github.com/jquery/jquery, search for fadeIn, you'll find it here github.com/jquery/jquery/blob/…
So it just changes the opacity
 
oh thanks
 

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