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21:00
rlemon is not a kangaroo
Yeah he is
@Zirak worked a lot on it since then, so not sure what it even was
i need a password manager..
they scare me, though
i'm tired of resetting passwords I forget
which leads to more forgetting
@Luggage keepass?
i don't know. i'd have to do a lot of reading to know which one to choose
21:10
Just don't be a fucking moron and use an online service :P
yea, but I want the convenience of it to sync to multiple PCS, so it'll be online one way of the other
Multiple pcs in different networks?
i use chromes built-in password manager for lots of sites (But not the few key ones)
i guess just my pc and laptop, really, and they are on the same network, though rarely awake at the same time
#importantgraphs
@Luggage Get a pi so you can have an always on server :)
21:15
@phenomnomnominal I love it when foreigners care about our policies :p
@phenomnomnominal but why aren't people focusing on the outliers instead of the statistically significant empirical data?
the most recent news story should inform all decisions
@Loktar I love it when Americans pretend that they aren't a role model for the whole world :P
@phenomnomnominal We aren't, in this scenario.
role model? we're backwards in a few ways
21:16
literally the only first-world country where this happens.
where what happens?
brb, pants.
@Luggage pants
Which is why I care about this policy as well :)
The US is the only first-world country where pants happen often and without good cause.
Europe just lies about their pants statistics. they only include solved pants.
or so fox news says
21:19
@SomeKittens like what?
The fact that gun homicides are down 49% since 1993?
Data like that?
or that more people die per year falling out of their beds than in "mass shootings"
crime, in general, is going down
which data did you want to actually focus on?
Feelings, or data?
if only states would be more consistent in bed-height regulations
the yard-sale loophole
@Loktar as if mass shootings were the only shootings
21:21
!!s/crime/your mom/
@KendallFrey your mom, in general, is going down (source)
@phenomnomnominal there is a meme? nice.
that is where I read it.
> The social media meme said that "gun homicide is down 49 percent in the past 12 years." The gun homicide rate is actually down by 49 percent over the past 17 years, but this seemingly minor mistake betrays a significant misunderstanding of how rates have fluctuated over the past two decades. During the past dozen years, gun homicide rates have been largely static; their big decline mostly came in the years before the meme even started counting.
@KendallFrey Caprica is talking about your mom.
> The meme is not just incorrect; it’s a distraction from what actually happened. We rate the claim False.
21:22
Interesting, Pew research claims differently @phenomnomnominal
PewPew research.
get it?
pew pew mutha fucka.
Interesting fact I've found when debating gun control is no one actually looks at real data, just feels :)
Like your graph above lol
And also, the real issue isn't gun homicide, that's always going to happen, because people suck. It's mass gun homicides.
California is #5 in violence
@Loktar wait, what?
21:23
A dude shouldn't be able to own half a dozen guns and shoot up a school.
and has some of the strictest gun laws in the country
Violence !== guns
Violence can mean bar fights.
@phenomnomnominal a dude shouldn't own a knife and kill over 20 people in a subway
how's about this: Every datum hereafter supporting less or the same gun control is incorrect because it's just feels
21:24
otherwise, it's "real" data
@Loktar how many times has that happened in the last year?
Cool, 16 months ago
Want a list of the mass shooting deaths in america since then?
oops mispaste from IRC :p
> ...we find substantial negative correlations between firearm deaths and states that ban assault weapons (-.45), require trigger locks (-.42), and mandate safe storage requirements for guns (-.48).
^ more feels
not "real" data
at the end of the day, we are still talking about the types of guns, as other countries still allow rifles/shotguns, generally.
21:26
@Loktar okay, so 2 knife attacks in a country of 1.2 billion
there WILL be guns.
@phenomnomnominal ok so 3, ok so 4, ok so 5
just.. what do they look like, how many bullets can they hold, etc
lol no point in arguing it anyway.
@Loktar I may be coloured by my personal opinions, but trying to look at this with a calm head, it seems like there's (or I at least have) not enough *clear cut* data.
You say that gun homicide is down X% over the past Y years. First, of course, [tag:citation-needed], but that aside, what does that actually mean? Is it X% over the entire US? Maybe parts of the US went up, and parts went down?
Can we correlate between homicide rate and other factors? Is there federal research going on over this?
21:26
If that's the case then there are really only two possibilities:
1. Guns really *are* bad, and people shouldn't have them.
2. The U.S. population is somehow fucked up in a way the rest of the world isn't, and guns are just a convenient means to fill the need for violence
@Zirak citation was given
@Loktar and disputed
@Loktar 297 in 2015 in America.
@phenomnomnominal 297 what?
you don't get to say "oh, my citation is better than yours because feels"
21:27
Deaths from guns?
Mass shootings
@SomeKittens I dont pay attn to you really
Not necessarily deaths, just people shooting up shit.
People getting hurt
/me looks at ping from @SomeKittens
Second, I dislike the "ban all or ban nothing" attitude. Just because people have access to means of homicide doesn't mean we should not restrict some of them.
21:28
Is hunting legitimate?
@SomeKittens where was it disputed?
So "oh, so you want to ban guns? well people still have knives!" argument feels a bit weak.
@Loktar Phenom's PolitiFact link
@Zirak this
Australia had a mass shooting a couple of decades ago (Port Arthur). In response we banned guns. Haven't had a mass shooting since.
21:28
@Zirak the problem is mental health
Nobody said we shouldn't ban dangerous knives
@Loktar That's an additional problem.
which types of guns did australia ban?
@Loktar That's just your feels
Is there research into this?
@Luggage All of em
21:29
@Zirak haha it truly is!
Mental health is a feeling.
all? does australia not have any dangerous animals?
you could say it's more than a feeling
@SomeKittens Okay Boston.
@Luggage You can get a license to own a gun if you have a genuine need for one, such as being a farmer
But I actually agree with you
21:30
Were mass shooters investigated and revealed to be mentally unstable? Is there a strong correlation?
Furthermore, is there something which can be done about it? Maybe they reached for help, and it wasn't available, maybe more propaganda is necessary, etc
@SomeKittens you must not have seen my link later
I never said 12 years either.
I have depression, I don't shoot people.
The thing is, I don't know all that (partly because I don't actively follow), but partly because I don't think this kind of research exists.
@Loktar I saw it, but it was disputed.
It wasn't though.
The data is since 1993
21:30
@Zirak There's no such thing as too much propaganda. Trust me or I'll kill your family
@phenomnomnominal a single data point is insignificant
@phenomnomnominal hands @phenomnomnominal a cookie
> The victimization rate for all non-fatal violent crime among those ages 12 and older—simple and aggravated assaults, robberies and sex crimes, with or without firearms—dropped 53% from 1993 to 2000, and 49% from 2000 to 2010. It rose 17% from 2010 to 2011.
@Loktar And I have data saying gun ownership directly correlates to homicide deaths. (which you didn't dispute, so I'm forced to believe you agree).
@phenomnomnominal You shoot arrows through my heart each and every day
21:31
damn thats not even the exact one :p
> what does that actually mean? Is it X% over the entire US? Maybe parts of the US went up, and parts went down?
@monners Get a (different) room!
Maybe it dropped X% because of new gun control laws in certain countries
@Zirak idk read the article?
user1596138
@monners LMFAO
user1596138
21:32
Yeah, because no other countries have murderers
I'm really not on the defensive because our laws aren't changing and are currently great.
Would be nice if they were enforced.
@Loktar Who says they aren't?
@LanaKane Call me crazy, but I think I'd stand a better chance against a person with a knife than a gun
user1596138
Would anyone care to say how many people have died from mass shootings vs. how many people have died from vehicular manslaughter
@LanaKane false equivalence
> If Ayotte’s numbers are right, the nation’s .055 prosecution rate doesn’t make for a very good shooting percentage. So, we decided to run the numbers ourselves.
@Loktar I don't really know (or frankly care) enough, I just hate these kinds of discussions because they derail into, as you said, the emotional. That's what I aim to do here
user1596138
@phenomnomnominal Poor wording and has been corrected.
only 0.55% of people who try to buy firearms and legally shouldn't be are prosecuted. So the laws aren't being enforced.
21:33
@LanaKane That's not the point! Of course people will die in many horrific ways, that doesn't mean we should allow means for them to die in to go unheeded.
At least where I live there's constant propaganda about road safety, as there should be!
Cancer kills people, we should ban cancer.
@LanaKane That's because more people own cars than guns
user1596138
Point is people die there too. But we don't publicize it unless it was Suge Knight
@phenomnomnominal people will die anyway, why ban cancer?
21:34
@monners You're doing propaganda wrong there, bud
Or as I said before:
6 mins ago, by Zirak
Second, I dislike the "ban all or ban nothing" attitude. Just because people have access to means of homicide doesn't mean we should not restrict some of them.
user1596138
@KendallFrey Re-read it.
done
then what?
@SomeKittens Sorry potentially saving 40 people a year isn't worth losing a right.
user1596138
Manslaughter. Did you read that part?
21:35
@LanaKane It's still a false equivalence.
@Loktar I disagree
user1596138
Murder by vehicle lol
@LanaKane Yes
Just like I don't want to lose my access to high fat foods.
@Loktar how many would make it worth it?
21:35
which kills magnitudes more.
@Loktar People felt the same way about goto
user1596138
That is totally a fair equivalence.
Dozens died from velociraptor attacks
@SomeKittens strawman
@Loktar You don't really know what a strawman is, do you?
21:36
@LanaKane it's not. You don't need to chose between the two of them, so you need not compare them.
How can you find an object with a given id?
We accept that some people will die in a car, accidentally or otherwise. We also accept that some people die by gun accidentally and otherwise. The threshold is WAY different, as car related death are more on the accidental side and there is inherent risk in any travel. We accept less gun related deaths, as we should, but there will always be some. Not that many with the million and millions of guns in america, really.
@corvid .filter?
@corvid your question is too broad.
@LanaKane Taken simply, your argument is "if we let people die from cars, we should let them die from guns as well"
21:36
However, it's empirically proven that you can easily reduce the number of gun deaths, but taking more action than America has.
@Loktar There is a difference between voluntarily putting a donut in your stomach and involuntarily getting a bullet in your stomach.
That's just..weird.
user1596138
@Luggage lol no I was talking deliberate murder by vehicle.
user1596138
@Zirak Sorry, I am pro "having enough food to go around in another century" and don't mind death.
@LanaKane now you're equating murder with manslaughter
user1596138
21:37
Notice my lack of seriousness.
I stand by my statement. I am actually for more consistent gun laws and even soem more restriction, but not an outright ban.
@SomeKittens you're right it wasn't a strawman, but it would be based on feelings.
@Luggage Agreed, this works in most other countries.
@Luggage I'm for consistency as well.
@Loktar as would any pro-gun arguments, as we've covered earlier
21:38
@Luggage I saw a nice comparison of gun and vehicle restrictions the other day, highlighting how vehicle restrictions are much stronger.
@SomeKittens nah you just decided to ignore what I posted for the most part.
user1596138
Because this isn't an actual issue, it's an issue to mindless sheep who worry most about what is presented to them most or in the most devious ways. Mass shootings are not an epidemic in the USA, nor are they approaching anything of the sort. The argument simply doesn't need to be had. End of story. Call me ignorant but I look at facts and numbers, not emotions.
Require a license with training and a written test, check eyesight, all that.
21:38
I still think the self-defense argument is flawed
@Loktar That's an interesting side point. Do you really consider the right to bear arms a basic human liberty, worth (potentially) having innocents die for?
@LanaKane but the shooting are not going away from the news, and they'll continue to rub this topic in people's faces.
@Zirak I consider the right to self defense a basic human liberty.
@KendallFrey Especially since that study that said you have more chance of staying alive by running away from someone with a gun than having your own gun.
@Zirak Our Bill of Rights allows us to have guns "For the common defense". The exact meaning of that quote has never been resolved.
21:39
@KendallFrey When we were going over this the other day, that's what I said. Guns are too small to help in a revolution.
Your government has drones.
Sorry guys, but they've got you beat.
@Loktar You can interpret that sentence in so many ways.
Twitter > Guns for modern revolution. Imagine telling the founding fathers that.
Anyone that's ever played an FPS knows that whoever pulls the gun first has the advantage.
@SomeKittens Pen, sword, etc.
21:40
Free karate lessons for all fall under this umbrella.
@ssube May I ask what /\w/g (regex) this does? I mean the "/\". I tried to google it but couldnt find any matches. What is the difference between / and \? Sometimes I even see things like this: /\/\/\
@SomeKittens Twitter didn't do shit for Syria
guns have.
@ssube precisely.
A gun when the nearest cop is 1 hour away makes sense. a gun in a tight apartment in the city makes less sense. (for defense)
@KendallFrey Unless one of you is a bear.
21:40
Iranians didn't have guns
they failed in their revolution.
I'd much rather know he doesn't have a gun than that I do have a gun
We should all just go back to swords
Can't remember the last time Twitter actually removed someone in power. Its a tool thats helpful, but not the tool.
@KendallFrey but only one of those factors is in your power to control
21:41
@Asperger "\" is a special character in regex, it escapes the following character to change it's behaviour
crl
crl
Pilums
user1596138
@Luggage So grow up lol. Form your own opinions and care about things that you care about not what you are being told is huge. Ebola was bigger than mass shootings a year ago...
@Loktar Now that's a weak correlation. The attempted Iranian revolution is a very complex topic which is more than a "yes gun" / "no gun" binary.
@Luggage only if guns are legal
@KendallFrey That thumbnail doesn't look like a real bear.
21:41
@LanaKane and Ebola killed many more.
@ssube just watch it lol
@LanaKane and we did somthing about Ebola. Mass shootings are bigger now, shall we do something about them?
Neature Walk is crazy
@LanaKane no one is asking you to chose between stopping ebola and stopping mass shootings
@KendallFrey when I get home
21:41
Believe it or not, you can do both.
@SomeKittens bigger than what?
user1596138
@SomeKittens No, we didn't.
@phenomnomnominal what a crazy idea!
@phenomnomnominal thanks for letting me know
user1596138
Hardly
21:42
Falling out of beds kills more Americans per year.
user1596138
It just wasn't EVER as big a deal as they said.
There are many things much bigger.
@Loktar so that's your metric for "We should do something about this problem"?
Media determines what you think is big.
Why do we keep circling back to this fallacy?
21:42
@Loktar Too bad we aren't talking about bed control
@Zirak Because it's the last defense for the lack of gun control.
user1596138
Oh well with that kind of sham argument...
@Zirak because it's all they've got? I assume if there were non-fallacitical arguments to be made, they would be.
@KendallFrey too bad we are talking about something that really doesn't affect most of the people here :)
Can we agree that just because people die, doesn't mean we shouldn't do anything about death?
21:42
We know what we can do about gun violence. We still haven't come up with a solution to people being clumsy.
user1596138
> Your point doesn't fall in line with mine and is therefore off-topic and does not matter herp
If you fall out of your bed and die, that sucks. If you really want, you can buy a little fence and possibly prevent it.
@KendallFrey Remove guns from law abiding citizens, thats surely the way!
user1596138
@KendallFrey Do the states with the strictest gun control have the least gun violence?
@Loktar Then why do you care about self-defense, if it's so unlikely to happen to you?
21:43
@LanaKane no.
adult cribs
user1596138
@Loktar Shhhh let him figure it out he needs to Google on the issue for the first time ever
@KendallFrey being in a mass shooting is extremely unlikely.
Not being attacked.
We're not talking about mass shootings
We're talking about shootings
@Loktar New question: How many people, per year, exercise the right for self defense by using guns?
21:44
hm. Only number I could find for bed deaths was 450 and that was from a clickbait site
user1596138
^ that's not an issue?
low-mass shootings
user1596138
Quote me some stats on how many more murders by gun we have in the USA than your country
user1596138
Someone who doesn't live in Canada please
21:44
you haven't been paying attention son.
@Zirak it's a teensy tiny number
@Loktar Can you correlate constitutional use of guns with "crazy" use of guns?
small enough that most of those make the news, too
@ssube bullshit it is.
I guess America has just become used to falling behind the rest of the world in most metrics, why should they care about falling behind in mass shootings and gun violence?
21:45
You can't even gauge the deterence factor.
THIS IS THE SHIT THAT NEEDS TO BE RESEARCHED
@phenomnomnominal That's just exacerbated by the fact that many of us still think we're leading in those same metrics.
user1596138
Wow... Canada has more firearm related deaths per person than the USA.
@phenomnomnominal yeah, it sucks being the only super global power.
user1596138
But that's not what we're talking about right?
21:46
The only one the average american knows we're behind in is mass shootings.
@phenomnomnominal metrics hehehe
so 450 for beds (from clickbait site) and 33,169 deaths from non-law-enforcement gun violence in the US in 2013 from CDC.
soooo, no, guns are more dangerous than beds
@SomeKittens when did the argument change from mass shootings?
This is a historical list of countries by firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population in one year. It should be noted that the following list includes suicides, accidental fatalities, and justifiable homicides. Not included are suicides by other means, homicides by other means, accidental deaths by other means, and/or justifiable deaths by other means. == ListEdit == This is an incomplete list of 75 Countries and Dependencies, which may never be able to satisfy particular standards for completeness. You can help by expanding it with reliably sourced entries. == Charts and graphsEdit == ...
(would love a better source on the bed deaths)
21:46
I was talking about mass shootings, as you were or so I thought.
@LanaKane Is this accidents or homicides?
user1596138
@monners I already have been there. That's a wikipedia article. Please show me what you want to from it
Australia 0.86 per 100,000 vs America 10.64 100,000
@Loktar I've been talking overall gun deaths.
@monners Australia doesn't need guns, there are plenty of other ways to die.
21:47
that chart seems to indicate there are far larger contributors to gun-deaths than how legal they are
@Loktar when you spend more than most of the other other countries in the world combined on your military, you'd hope you were a super power.
Sorry that number of nukes per capita isn't a very modern way to judge the greatness of a nation.
@ssube Why do people think that? I've never understood it.
@Luggage Of course there are, that's the fashizzle which drives me mental. I don't see a lot of research going into this.
user1596138
@Loktar They were. But they lost that argument already
@phenomnomnominal well, say we're great or we'll nuke you
21:48
Not that easy access isn't a contributing factor.. it is, of course.
@monners The US doesn't have very many venomous critters, compared.
Can we at least agree on a topic?
@LanaKane oh is that how it works? You say we lost the argument, so it's true? Silly me.
@ssube bullshit.
We have plenty in the southern half of the country, but that's where we keep the sketchy stuff.
21:48
So we can have an actual conversation instead of random spats?
The northern half, there's nothing to worry about.
@ssube America has Trump.
legalize guns and weed. everyone is happy
@phenomnomnominal Trump is not venomous.
crl
crl
usa is actually 13th en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… wow Honduras.. you have almost 1/1000 chance to die from weapons each year
21:49
anyone else thinks regex is a magic weopon?
user1596138
@phenomnomnominal Idk you guys just switched topics so I can only assume. I wasn't having the argument
Venomous requires being able to inject the toxin.
welp if a rational argument isn't to be had, good night
4
user1596138
My "argument" is that it's all a sham. Go worry about something real like the next national media scare
@Luggage legalizing weed would be bad
21:49
@Zirak it's about guns, what did you expect?
@Asperger all research says the opposite
@Zirak You talked to murkans about guns.
@SomeKittens More from us
US has wolf spiders, house spiders, recluse spiders, bears (MOFUCKIN' BEARS, MAN!)
You could try jerbs, those are a good topic.
21:50
@Zirak ...fair.
@monners Only recluse spiders are venomous to humans.
user1596138
To be fair, we are the americans and we know what it's really like out here. People aren't being gunned down in the streets...
@ssube Wolf spiders cause skin necrosis
user1596138
Often anyway lol
That's some scary shit!
21:50
@Luggage researches are manipulated by the industrial-military complex
nope. america is pretty safe
@monners Are you sure they do that?
One last thing:
we used to play with them as kids
vidya games
21:51
which can be used an an argument for why we don't needs guns and as an argument for us hainvg them isn't so bad
@ssube Animal Planet told me so
Next topic: legalizing PHP
@Luggage if a few powerful companies want to sell a new product they pay researchers to do the job of creating sympathies.
@monners Hm. Most of the US doesn't have those and they're similar to a few much more common species.
21:53
jails want to sell a product so they pay advertizers to sell fear
We have very little dangerous fauna here compared to warmer climates.
@Zirak psh we are all desk jokeys
:P
That's why we spend most of our time shooting each other: there are no kangaroos to do it for us.
we have deer. same thing. more legs
less boxing
21:54
My idea is take everyone elses guns so mine go up even more in value.
Daddy needs a nice retirement house.
next argument? i'm not done, yet
Religion, abortion?
what do people in Europe argue about?
@Luggage The US gov't, as part of its mandate for insuring domestic Tranquility, & promoting the general Welfare, should make heathcare universal.
ohh, we disagree on religion, so probably abortion, too
user1596138
Ok I know this is sort of off-topic...
21:56
@Luggage you missed the religion debate
I've already had some with Loktar
shit really?
I'll take universal healthcare.
must have been a long time ago
i'll refresh your memory. you are for, i am against
21:57
Religion right?
user1596138
But 609,423 people went to jail (at least momentarily) in 2013 for possessing (this number is for posession only, does not include dealers or traffickers) a natural plant that grows in the wild here in Nebraska and is legal in Colorado. Someone go stop that injustice... Even if I didn't smoke that's fuckin crazy.
user1596138
!!afk home
ok makes sense.
i'm ultra-liberal except for guns
21:58
hey now liberal doesn't mean doesn't believe in God :p
true. more likely.

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