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7:00 PM
@Luggage Right; after the message that Nick accused me of "being a victim" for. Anyways, this is devolving into an argument about the argument, so, I'm going to stop. I still think => is a language learning pitfall, and if I'm the only one who thinks so, so be it.
 
hey guys!
 
hey taco
 
OK.
 
any help with why my data is not displaying correctly in codepen.io/Feners4/pen/EjONEe?
 
Just started my first day at Turner Broadcasting today :d
 
7:02 PM
js is getting too big with es7 onward imo
 
No, JS is becoming the language that we've needed it to be for the last 10 years
until we get WASM
 
not really
 
yes really
 
I'm guessing JS will be much more important once Web Assembly becomes a major thing
 
its mainly just layering new abstractions on top of the old cruft
while leaving the old stuff there for people to still mess up
 
7:03 PM
@Crazy Well, classes, yeah, but a lot of the new stuff is new functionality
 
very few new abstractions. just formalizing some patterns (like classes) in a convenient syntax so they are LESS abstract.
 
lambdas have lexical scope, we now have proper getters and setters, async, generators, proxies, etc.
 
Right, but new functionality is actually just different ways to solve the problems in many cases
 
Except you still basically need to understand prototypes to understand how class works.
 
its becoming unfocused
 
7:04 PM
@Crazy Sure, but you can say that about any language
 
@Nick true and people do
 
There is a big gap in JS programmer skill level between those that get protoypical inheritance and the this scope and those that don't. Maybe the new syntax will make that worse, but I'm more on the optimistic side.
 
I'm sure they do
 
Python's philosophy is "There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it." I'm not sure how well that works, in practice.
 
I'm optimistic, since I'm on the better side of that, lol
 
7:06 PM
damn.. need a ? operator..
someObject?.someProperty (returns null if someObject is null)
 
The problem, in my opinion, is that we are moving too quickly, building up different tools to help us accomplish "idiomatic {newParadigmOrAbstraction}" and then the graveyard of things that were implemented to make {obsolete pattern} efficient and nice in the syntax piles up
We can't even finalize a spec before planning the next ones huge feature set
 
the spec has been years in the making. You can't blame that for people that start implementing and using features from the half-way completed spec.
 
foo::bar::pls
 
The specs are too large, unfocused and close together though.
 
Nah, I'm sure the proposals have existed for years, but ES finally has enough fous to get it done
I'd argue that there's more focus now than there ever has been with JS
 
7:10 PM
Focus on developing the language yes
but the language itself
 
is becoming more unfocused as there are n+1 ways to do things
 
ES6 The good parts
 
Pretty much lol
I just feel comfortable with javascripts quirks and oddities because it is still relatively small, but as we add more and more to the core, we risk reaching a point where the gotchas are not so small and countable
 
@MadaraUchiha do you mean "extract into a function"?
 
7:13 PM
compare with c++ and the abuse of macros
people make up syntax as they go.
 
The reason why there's n+1 ways of doing things instead of redoing the way that things are done is to support legacy code. You can't change the lexical scoping of function keywords, because that would break the internet entirely. Instead, they introduce a new way to do things that's the correct way to do things. Eventually, it should phase out the old way of doing things once legacy code dies (many years from now)
 
@FlorianMargaine For example I have the following
(defun test-+ ()
  (format t "~:[FAIL~;pass~] ... ~a~%" (= (+ 1 2) 3) '(= (+ 1 2) 3))
  (format t "~:[FAIL~;pass~] ... ~a~%" (= (+ 1 2 3) 6) '(= (+ 1 2 3) 6))
  (format t "~:[FAIL~;pass~] ... ~a~%" (= (+ -1 -3) -4) '(= (+ -1 -3) -4)))
 
Either way, in the end, every language is like this, it's not that javascript is worse about it, it's that javascript is going through all of these major transformations at once
because they're way overdue
 
And I want to refactor that to
 
@Nick but we are also iterating so fast that we are leaving thousands of developers at n-3, n-2, n-1, creating a hell of a ecosystem for anyone stuck in a legacy role I imagine
 
7:14 PM
(defun report-result (result form)
  (format t "~:[FAIL~;pass~] ... ~a~%" result form))

(defun test-+ ()
  (report-result (= (+ 1 2) 3) '(= (+ 1 2) 3))
  (report-result (= (+ 1 2 3) 6) '(= (+ 1 2 3) 6))
  (report-result (= (+ -1 -3) -4) '(= (+ -1 -3) -4)))
Is there a way to do that automatically?
 
JavaScript evolved like a Pokemon
2
 
Hmmm... Not that I know of, sorry
 
it's been years since the last update.
 
@FlorianMargaine So when you do refactoring...
 
@Crazy So? You know how many companies are stuck on super old versions of Java? Should java just stop evolving as well?
 
7:15 PM
You do it by hand?
In Emacs?
(You realize how bad that sounds, right?)
 
How about .NET? Should MS stop developing the .NET framework because the oil companies are only on winXP?
 
@Nick Java isn't exactly more role model ideal language.
 
Refactoring is not a strong point of emacs. There are some packages, but usually paredit mode is good enough. Try erefactor.el
 
Either is .Net, lol.
 
@Crazy You get the idea, though
 
7:16 PM
Yeah, I do realize it's kinda bad.
 
Not particularly.
We've learned a lot since the early days of Java and .Net
 
THings evolve, and there is a lot of legacy code out there; but that doesn;t mean that we should be held back because there are legacy codebases--that makes no sense
 
same as javascript, but Java and .Net have always been kitchen sink style languages
javascript hasn't
and its becoming one
 
That's like saying, "We can't breathe underwater, so we might as well not invent submarines"
 
at least with JS we have babel and 5-to-3 (or whatever it's called). Some other languages just lock you out of the new hotness.
 
7:17 PM
Not really.
 
Yes really
 
JS is annoying
 
I don't own a super nice gaming rig, does that mean nobody else should? I'm stuck on a legacy computer, because I can't afford a nicer computer; therefore, nobody should have a nice computer
That's what your argument sounds like
 
@Nick There's a cost to adding submarines though.
Thats what you are ignoring.
 
I'd argue that the benefits greatly outweight the costs
 
7:18 PM
There's a cost to the increased complexity that you are completely ignoring
 
Just because there are costs, doesn;t mean that you shouldn't advance. If we were always afraid of the costs, we never would have landed on the moon
 
Okay, well, I'd argue that it doesn't in many situations. Many of the features of es6 are superfluous, in the sense that they are providing a new way of doing something that is already possible
and the cost they are adding is high
 
@Crazy Yes
@Crazy No.
 
Let me throw another analogy out there instead of submarines: Should we have stayed on poisonous leaded gasoline because some of the existing cars couldn't use unleaded?
 
I think you're not familiar enough with ES6 to make that determination. A lot of the new features solve problems, they aren't just there because they can be
 
7:20 PM
I think you are not familiar enough with my knowledge to make that determination. Can you provide an example instead of a personal attack?:
 
like lambdas; they solve you having to create an extra 'self' variable that holds the 'this' value outside of a function
 
generators are really the only key new feature imo
 
Yes, many features are sugar and nothing more, but it's useful sugar
 
var self = this;
setTimeout(function() {
    self.something()
}, 1000);
 
@Crazy Maps? Lists?
Promises?
PROMISES?
 
7:21 PM
Proxies
 
ohh, good one.
 
None of the new features are there because the developers want to show off their muscles; they're there because they add real value
 
Proxies is a scary, scary feature.
 
Not worth the increased complexity that results in more work for the entire ecosystem of tooling and other things that must parse js
 
Except for Tagged Template Strings. Let's ignore them.
 
7:22 PM
It adds less work, what are you even on?
 
@Crazy I think you have it the wrong way
It's developer cycles that are expensive nowdays
 
@MadaraUchiha you can try out refactoring packages
 
It adds less work for you, but someone has to write the implementation of the spec
 
Not CPU or memory ones
 
They have to write the implementation ONCE. I have to write javascript MANY TIMES
 
7:23 PM
and there is such a huge fragmentation in js that there are going to be lots of projects writing that implementation
 
it saves a shit ton of time in the long run
 
@Crazy Now you're just throwing troll level arguments
 
cool and people have to read your javascript many more times
@MadaraUchiha ...
 
ES6 syntax is many times more readable than ES5's, and a lot more expressive
 
@MadaraUchiha I'm staying calm and providing legitimate arguments while you two continuously throw personal attacks.
 
7:24 PM
setTimeout(() => this.doSomething(42), 0); is a lot more readable than
setTimeout(function() { this.doSomething(42) }.bind(this), 0);
Definitely more than var that = this; setTimeout(function() { that.doSomething(42); }, 0);
for (let i = 0; i < 10; i++) {
    setTimeout(function() { console.log(i); }, 100);
}
@Crazy do you know how the implementation of that looks in ES5?
@Nick @Crazy settle down, now.
 
Forgot to mention Symbols in ES6
 
@Nick I don't repeatedly mention the fact that he doesn't know ES6.
 
^
 
@Crazy the question above, if you may
 
Please read the history.
 
7:30 PM
20 messages moved to JS trash
 
So, you're saying that me saying that you don't know the spec is the same as attacking you? Dude... you're being really hypersensitive.
 
I will say this one time, and one time only
 
Peanut butter is tasty?
 
this
 
This meta discussion is pointless, and leads to no where
 
7:30 PM
ohh. I was way off.
 
@Nick saying I don't know the spec is attacking my person instead of my argument, yes
 
If you want to bash each other, do it outside
 
how do you not understand that
 
@Crazy grow the fuck up, god damn
 
Take a time out you two.
Both of your heads are up your asses too much to listen to what you're being told.
 
7:32 PM
You were agreeing with me and arguing the same points as I was about ES, so I don't know what your problem is
 
Come on man, I'm on your side but shhhhh
 
?
 
He just invited me to a private room
 
all I'm gonna say is someone in here is clearly Crazy.
 
Yeah, because nobody wants to hear about it in here.
 
7:33 PM
no one can doubt that for a minute.
 
not about the insulting, but the awesomeness of es6.
 
@Nick @Crazy shut up
And listen
 
I'm not gonna go argue with you in a private room; you're hypersensitive; I don't need tumblr in my life
 
If you want to keep having this pointless meta discussion about @Crazy's qualifications, go do it outside.
If you do it here, I will kick you again
 
We should be making fun of PHP users, not arguing among ourselves. That's that THEY want.
 
7:34 PM
If you want to have an interesting discussion about the merit of ES2015, by all means go ahead
No personal attacks, no name calling, and no questioning of each other's qualifications.
 
and no tumblr
 
@Crazy I'll repeat my question from a few messages back
 
*facepalm*
 
10 mins ago, by Madara Uchiha
for (let i = 0; i < 10; i++) {
    setTimeout(function() { console.log(i); }, 100);
}
Do you know how that is implemented in ES5?
@Nick To be fair, I did warn you.
 
where is your arrow?
 
7:39 PM
Not sure. I probably would implement that differently in es5
 
Oooh I hadn't realized let would avoid the closure loop bug
 
@FlorianMargaine hell yes.
thats one of the reasons I love let so damned much
 
Love const instead
 
@Crazy You can't just replace let with var, you'd get 10 10 times after 100 ms
So you have to use a closure!
 
Why don't you just pass i into the anon func?
or does that not work
nvm
 
7:40 PM
for (var i = 0; i < 10; i++) {
    (function(i) {
        setTimeout(function() { console.log(i); }, 100);
    })(i);
}
 
@Zirak implementing getopt in bash is painful
 
This is still sorta readable, but this is horribly inefficient, because you create 10 new functions here! (not a very good example, because the function inside setTimeout is also a new function every time, but you get the point)
 
let is almost always better than var. Just suggest to new users to always use let and they should avoid a whole class of bugs.
 
So the actual better solution would be
 
@MadaraUchiha well, 20 functions
 
7:42 PM
@FlorianMargaine Yeah, didn't count the inner one
10 functions just because of var
 
@Luggage I'd rather suggest const
 
or that
 
Everyone forgets about const :(
 
@MadaraUchiha It wasn't namecalling or offensive, it was saying that there's no tumblr emotions allowed in the room. Pretty reasonable, if you ask me
 
no reassign with const :0
 
7:43 PM
@Nick you were still arrogant
 
function useIInForLoop(i) {
    setTimeout(function() { console.log(i); }, 100);
}
for (var i = 0; i < 10; i++) {
    useIInForLoop(i);
}
 
What are tumblr emotions?
 
Which is ugly as fuck.
@Nick A third kick is 30 minutes
Just sayin'
 
@cswl yes. There are some cases where you need let, but const should be used most of the times.
 
@Crazy And please don't devolve to it too.
 
7:43 PM
@MadaraUchiha So? I didn;t say anything offensive
 
@Nick You were being a prick.
"Be nice" is still a rule in this chatroom.
 
I often find you intollerable, and feel like you abuse your owner powers
 
I do too, but I'm with him this time.
 
@MadaraUchiha I'm not arguing that es6/7 can be convenient in a lot of situations. I'm just not sure that it needs to be as large as it is and I'm not sure all of the added features are really saving developer time in the long run.
 
Please, feel free to flag me for moderator attention (via the message menu) or open a post about it on Meta Stack Overflow.
 
7:44 PM
Ah, Immutables
 
If you truly think about me abusing my powers as a room owner.
Also, we hold room meetings every now and then, you can raise the issue of me being a crappy RO there.
For now, I am a room owner, and I really really don't like to repeat myself.
 
We can make immutable objects, with proxies right?
 
@Crazy Which is exactly the point.
Saving developer time is the ultimate goal.
A language should serve you, not the other way around.
@FlorianMargaine What do you mean you do too? :P
 
Also, if it's harder for newbies, that's just more job security for you. :)
 
7:53 PM
@MadaraUchiha well, sometimes you look like an abusing RO
I thought I'd already told you?
 
You're way too quick to kick people and are too afraid to take a side in an argument, even when someone is clearly right (not saying I'm the one that's always right), so you punish both people.
 
@FlorianMargaine Given that today was the first time I've kicked anyone in weeks, I don't really see how I gave off this vibe...
 
You're too afraid to step outside of the bounds of political correctness
 
Converted a 500 line file from coffee to es6. Bets on it working the first time?
 
@Luggage 500 monopoly dollars.
 
7:54 PM
@Nick The argument is not interesting when it's ABOUT arguing
 
is that a bet for or against it working?
 
So in order to stop it as effectively as possible, I will kick, and kick again if needs be.
1-5 minutes outside the room don't hurt anyone
 
@MadaraUchiha Oh, so you're only interested in keeping people in the room if they're interesting? So, if we're not interesting to you, you're gonna kick us? So fair.
 
@Luggage Yes.
 
@Nick I'm only interested in keeping people in the room if they're well behaved.
 
7:56 PM
So if we don;t fit your standards of political correctness and happy little fairies, you're gonna kick us
 
I did not kick you without warning
 
@Nick You're taking it too personal. Admins said we can kick lightly (especially first kick)
 
I did tell you to stop with the pointless argument
 
@copy I have no issue with any other RO in this room
 
None of you did, so I kicked you both
 
7:56 PM
I've not liked Madara as an RO since he was given it
I don't think he's appropriate for the role
 
@Nick You're taking it too personal
 
Upon return, you continued the bashing despite what I've written, and so were kicked again.
 
@MadaraUchiha Yes, but this was the same discussion that you were also involved in. You just got bored of it, so you kicked us
 
I don't think I've done any misconduct here, and like I said, if you feel strongly about it, feel free to raise it up in our room meetings or on meta.
 
I will bring it up in the next room meeting
 
7:58 PM
@Nick No, I did not get bored of it. In fact, I've attempted to rekindle the discussion numerous times.
It was you who kept sabotaging it by mentioning the other person's abilities (or lack of) and tumblr.
 
I mentioned that "I think you are not familiar wnough with ES6" -- I wasn not slamming his abilities
 
How do you see this ending?
 
@Nick You mentioned that more than once, after he explicitly asked you to stop.
 
I was saying that I didn't think he was aware of the features thoroughly, and instead of proving otherwise, he got offended
 
Is there any point in promisifying database access in meteor?
 
7:59 PM
@Luggage Clearly with another kick, because he abuses his power
 
I meant, in what way do you WANT this to end?
 

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