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4:00 PM
Inverted *japanese!
 
woah nice @rlemon
 
@Major0 try haskell and you'll go back to your cave
 
is C++ harder than Java ?
 
lol Florian
 
@yeppe Type @k then press tab ;)
 
nope Java is full of abstractions and encapsulations
 
@alovaros Is using a drill harder than using a hammer?
 
not harder, but has additional concepts like pointers
 
i love Java more than though
 
@alovaros I would say yes, it's a bit more low-level
 
4:00 PM
@Loktar Lok'thar ogar
 
@alovaros I'd say it's far better,
 
@MadaraUchiha awesome xD
 
@yeppe For shame :P
 
@MadaraUchiha The surgeon told me I'm not allowed to bring either into the OR anymore.
 
@alovaros Lok-tar ogar
 
4:01 PM
@yeppe I hate Java more than I hate Justin Bieber.
3
 
@ʞɔᴉN yes
 
Happy Monday, guys ;)
 
and building C++ can be a pain
 
@Callum soo tha's not hard I don't like java .-.
 
Yeah
 
4:01 PM
@ʞɔᴉN oh okey o:
 
Java is a horrible horrible language that basically solved 2 problems, and introduced 99 more.
 
@Loktar for the horde!!
 
but most beautiful engines are C++ :P
 
I like C the most.. i love printer port programming .. but gone are those days ... i cherish them ...well, I do web technologies now
 
Java allows more creativity. C++ allows more precision
 
4:01 PM
Java solved C's two biggest bug factories
 
"printer port programming"
 
"creativity"
 
serial communication?
 
Java solved the symmetry problems from C, and pointer arithmatics.
 
More like it hid pointer manipulation
 
4:02 PM
@MadaraUchiha soo ... we learned C at school never thougth that pointers are usefull ...
 
But introduced a horrible typesystem, NullPointerExceptions, super verbose syntax, ....
 
@alovaros Pointers have plenty of use when applicable.
 
You can't even do a switch op in java
 
@alovaros Pointers are very useful. If you're disciplined and careful.
 
you have to use a temp field
 
4:03 PM
@Trasiva so we just wrote small programs in c o:
 
like seriously
 
@MadaraUchiha I'm not xD
 
oh wait
NVM xD
 
To be fair, JavaScript is the language I like most at the moment
 
user406009
@alovaros It depends on what you want to do. Do you need to manipulate memory? Then C++ will probably do that more easily. For almost everything else, Java has better abstractions and makes your work easier.
 
user1596138
4:04 PM
monring
 
@MadaraUchiha I'm comfortable in JS, it's JQ I'm trying to get better with.
 
I like C#
 
I like C# a lot, but ES6+ brings joy back into Javascript
 
@Jhawins monring
 
C,JS,C++(never wrote 1 code lol),java ... I don't like hate is to much
 
4:04 PM
It's got a good mix of great parts, community, performance, and expressiveness.
 
c by dennis ritchie cannot be compared to any language, personally, i feel it has taught me programming .... the if, for while loops i learned from there.... then moved to union and structure, link list and (their application in interrupt handling ) mouse handling...
 
@Major0 I like to pay a crapton of money for licenses too.
Wait what
 
when it comes ASP.NET and whatnot? yeah lol
 
@Lalaland but ... I wanna make viedogames in the future have you ever seen a good engine based on java ?
 
I agree with @yeppe
 
user1596138
4:05 PM
Ring, mon
 
does js (es6) have a convenient replacement for lodash's _.mapValues()?
 
I might sound mainstream, but you should do unity @alovaros
 
I kno wI can make one with Object.keys() and a [].reduce().
 
@Major0 so then I learn more JS or c#
 
Its core is native, but you programi IN C#
Yes
 
4:06 PM
I like some aspects of Java over C#... They should combine all of their good parts to make a super language
Java#
pls
 
Scratch that
 
J#
 
F#
 
C#++
 
ew
 
4:07 PM
we made a project that was just an interface to DOS we booted it with floppy disc and that to we wrote so many functions ..just to give a good ui .. i loved it...
 
@Nick Like what?
 
haha :')
looking forward to OS dev :P
 
I've heard Unity on JS rund really bad ... but you can also use c++ with unreal 4 or omg source 2 when it comes out * ___ *
 
@A
@alovaros whats unity? i dont know about that...
 
I would highly suggest Unity. Multi-platform and you can decompile the bytecode DLLs to see the code (but not the native core, that's off limits)
 
4:08 PM
@yeppe unity engine :D it's an engine for making videogames
 
Unless you Reverse Engineer :p
 
JVM??
oh ok
 
No not JVM
MSIL
MS Intermediate Language
close to ASM :P
 
@Major0 but unity don't looks very good ... and the performance is mostly bad :s and I've never seen a good game based on unity
 
fun to read and decompilable (if that's even a word)
Yeah well there are few trade secrets :)
you think OOP will give you good perf? HAH
I've beeen struggling for 3 years with that shit
Data Oriented Programming is the key
 
4:10 PM
unity's performance has improved a lot. and there are a LOT of games running on unity these days
 
hmmm. im not into gaming though.. all i did once was a tic tac toe game..@Major0... haha
 
even 2D stuff
 
it's not about the tool, it's about the usage :P OOP is too overly complicated when it comes to games and programs that require lots of calculations
@yeppe in Java?
 
@MadaraUchiha I like the camel-cased, yes, I know that's personal preference. I like that it forces one class per class file, I like the way it handles hashmaps and arraylists. Just some small things from java. If I could put those cool things into C#, then it would be awesome
 
no in c long back lolz
 
4:11 PM
My Final lab exam was Battleship game over network xD
(java)
 
@Major0 .. u knw about folium of descartes
nice
 
Nope
what is that? lol
 
@Nick Okay. Camel case, I agree. Personally, lisp's dash style is my favorite so far (function-name)
 
And thanks :)
Camel Case for life :P
reminds me of Camel Toes
 
One class per class file, there's no such enforcement in Java. That's a convention.
 
4:12 PM
@Nick on none is good :P but i really thougth about unity would be more or less a good desicion but I will 100% use source 2 when it comes out because source engine looks really good if you think about it's age ... I need to see how damn good that would be slobber
 
mathematical equation i plotted in c's graphics
 
I can write a 100 class application all in one file.
 
^ that's the spirit
 
HashMaps and ArrayLists is something you can easily do yourself or with a library with C#.
 
I can't even write an functionl webApp with websockets lol
 
4:12 PM
An ArrayList is just an object with the List interface with an array behind the scenes.
 
Yes
 
yeah .. it was cool when i used to be free doing all those crazy stuff ..now i do none
 
@MadaraUchiha they're called Dictionaries
 
@Major0 wait what ?
 
in C#
 
4:13 PM
@alovaros wat
 
@Major0 SSDD
 
IN C# TAKE IT EASY PEOPLE
 
why do you need hashmaps and arraylists in c#, there are alternatives
 
xD
 
@Major0 to be fair, I like how ImmutableJS implements lists and maps
 
4:13 PM
@Crazy yes there are, but hashmaps and arraylists are what I'm more confortable with
 
It implements them as trees
 
@Nick sobald sie draussen ist werde ich was mit der source 2 engin machen weil die erste schon für ihr alter unglaublich gut ausschaut und ich den styl einfach liebe
 
really? like heap trees?
 
I don't speak german
pls
 
@ʞɔᴉN ohh sorry xD
 
4:14 PM
Ah, okay. Makes sense. :)
 
@ʞɔᴉN you said "guten tag" when I went into this room so i thought o:
 
To maintain high reference reuse rate, things are put into trees
 
thanks @Callum.. for the tab advice
 
Niiiice
 
4:15 PM
@ʞɔᴉN and I are two different people, @alovaros
 
why
 
The interface is the same as a normal list, access is still O(1),
 
so
that's damn confusing
 
Maps are similar
 
@MadaraUchiha It's O(log(n))
 
4:15 PM
So Maps in C# are not implemented using trees?
 
any1 have any experience with mithril or mercuy?
 
@copy With ImmutableJS? no
 
@ʞɔᴉN on none is good :P but i really thougth about unity would be more or less a good desicion but I will 100% use source 2 when it comes out because source engine looks really good if you think about it's age ... I need to see how damn good that would be slobber
 
anyone here knows about minix OS?
 
Access by index is O(1)
Because the bits of the index are the keys to the trees
 
4:16 PM
@MadaraUchiha You have to go down the tree, which gets deeper with the number of elements
 
@Nick why are you guys the same ... just spinned
 
@copy Yeah, just thought about it again
 
yeah and if binary trees then O(log(n))
 
O(log(n)) is right. Sorry
 
We don't spin
 
4:17 PM
Np
 
But logarithm grows very slowly
 
silent stalker :P xD
 
user406009
However, its like log32 or something, so it's almost constant.
 
Copy is there for the rescue :p
 
4:17 PM
Yeah, they aren't binary trees
 
@Nick *reversed
 
They're quad trees I think
 
Quad trees?
 
@Major0 Every node has 4 children, not 2
 
I mean you do realize im DDG'ing that :p but I still wanna hear it from you
 
4:18 PM
So it's actually O(log_4(n))
Which is an even slower growth rate
 
I think it was 32 children
 
oh I see
 
isn't quad trees how closure does it's immutable data scturcts?
 
but not that slower, I mean come on 4 is a constant
 
you guys r fcknig ma brain
 
4:20 PM
@copy Ah, so 8 bits per level?
 
meanwhile everybody's researching quad trees
some using Google, some using DuckDuckGo :P
 
xD
and me googles duckduckgo
 
lumia alarm clock sucks. @Abhishrek
 
Linked lists are the best kinds of trees
 
Yeah, so with ImmutableJS, a list's behind-the-scenes tree will have, at most, 8 levels
@Crazy Not really, not with immutable data structures anyway.
 
4:21 PM
@MadaraUchiha yeah, it was a joke, sry, wasn't actually very funny
 
@Crazy I'm partial to Birch, myself.
 
@MadaraUchiha I don't remember how the part with the bits worked
 
pretend you didn't know they were joking, make them feel bad when they realize their joke wasn't that funny
 
lolz @Crazy
 
@copy They divide the index into groups of 8 bits, and use that as indices for the tree
 
4:23 PM
@MadaraUchiha Then it should be 5 bits, shouldn't it?
 
then 32
 
@copy My math doesn't work at this time of the day. I apologize.
 
are there any more resources on how immutable js works? i didn't really get much from the wiki and youtube talk
 
@MadaraUchiha neat diagram
 
@qwertymk What exactly are you lacking?
 
4:25 PM
@Major0
 
user406009
@qwertymk Look up B trees.
 
whats that sir @Major0
 
so internally it just keeps an path as the variable?
 
user406009
That's what allows the log32 instead of log2 for binary trees.
 
@qwertymk No
 
4:25 PM
it's log4
right?
 
looks like a tree linklist!
 
The path is "141"
 
soooo many linters for atom.io. Can anyone recommend one for es6 so I don't hve ot try 20 of them?
 
not a binary tree lolz though!
 
@yeppe that's a tree :P
 
4:26 PM
@qwertymk 10001101 is the binary equivalent to the number 141 which is the index passed.
 
yah correct! looks like a hash function association...
 
yeah, I just don't understand what happens when i make changes to an object, I just don't understand the algotihm of what it does
 
Quad Tree of indices, each node in the tree is divided to 4 sections, each section is 2 bits.
 
In the example, he used 2 bits per level, so you take the two most significant bits, and plug them into the first level, then the next two, and so on, until you reach the leaf.
 
you spin my head right 'round, right 'round
 
4:26 PM
This is used for hash maps
 
when you go down, when you go do-own
 
@MadaraUchiha knows more about Quad Trees than me though :p
 
college starting tomorrow morning :o
2
 
Good luck, greg
 
GL lol
 
4:27 PM
@AwalGarg Good luck :)
 
user406009
@Major0 It's an arbitrary logN. I believe ImmutableJS just chose 32 for some special reason.
 
looks like a hash function association!@Major0
 
@AwalGarg Congratulations on the crippling debt!
 
so if I do first = immut.fromJS({a: 1, b: {c: 2}); second = immut.fromJS({a: 1, b: {c: 2}) it will point to the same place?
 
@qwertymk No.
 
4:28 PM
mo
no*
 
thanks peeps :D
 
it'll create 2 identical objects in separate places
 
@Major0 the only difference in interface in ImmutableJS is that methods that you'd normally expect to return void return a new list/map
So:
 
hmm
 
@qwertymk If you modify an existing immutable structure, the function will return the modified structure, instead of modifying it in place.
 
4:29 PM
Why would they return a new map? I mean is that a design decision?
 
let first = new I.List([1, 2, 3]);
let second = first.add(4); // new list!
console.log(first, second); // Two distinct objects!
@Major0 Because your map is immutable
 
aaah I see :)
 
It can never change once instantiated
 
@Major0 Its because as a property of immutability, you can't edit it afterwards
 
That is neat stuff
 
4:30 PM
let first = new I.List([1, 2, 3]);
let second = first.add(4); // new list!
let second2 = first.add(4); // new list!
 
So the methods like .add or .put instead return the new list.
 
@qwertymk correct, and first still is [1,2,3]
 
what happens to the old list in JS?
 
so second and second2 are different places in memory?
 
user406009
@MajorD Nothing
 
4:30 PM
@Major0 Nothing
 
@Major0 it stays the same
 
is there GC?
 
@Major0 Yup
 
user406009
@qwertymk Yes.
 
GC in JS!!:0
 
4:31 PM
You can still gc from references because you still have a ref to first
 
hmm, that wasn't the impression i got, is this true for clojuerescipt too?
 
user406009
Yeah.
 
@qwertymk JavaScript is a garbage collected language.
 
I am actually surprised :P I thought little of JS :P
 
@qwertymk What did you expect to happen?
 
4:31 PM
Lambdas, GC ... neat
 
ImmutableJS is merely a library, it does not affect garbage collection
 
user406009
ImmutableJS is pretty much a copy of ClojureScript's stuff.
 
it wouldn't allocate a new object, they can share the same object
 
@Major0 JS is an expressive, powerful language. People often dismiss it as a toy for web apps, but it's not.
 
Yes
I used to lol
until I had to confront it recently
 
4:32 PM
No, the whole point of immutability is you don't change the object you are modifying, you instead generate a copy, modify it and return the copy, leaving the original object unmodified.
 
it would make sense for it to be the same object
 
@qwertymk
 
@qwertymk Thanks to the ways things are built internally, there's a very high reuse of references
 
GC should only happen when there are no reference or no way to retrieve the block in whatsoever manner...
 
@AwalGarg like, first day of classes?
 
I'm at the worst room of my hotel
 
Lol
 
WiFi signal: 35%
 
@qwertymk immutability gives you a guarantee that objects won't change value after they are instantiated, this is why it returns a new object
 
4:33 PM
Google is still loading after 2 minutes
 
it can't modify the existing one
 
@ʞɔᴉN yeap
 
thought that was a pun :P SOF being your hotel and this room being the worst one :p even though it's a cool room lol
 
anyways, gotta get some sleep. night guys :)
 
lolz the call it a day @Florian
 
user406009
4:33 PM
@Crazy You also get great equality checks as well. Immutable.is
 
@FlorianMargaine I have like 6 pretty strong networks available in the room I'm staying in :)
 
@qwertymk Imagine this:
 
@AwalGarg night
 
*then
 
4:34 PM
gn @AwalGarg
 
function add4(mutableList) {
    mutableList.add(4);
    return mutableList;
}
 
StackOverFlow
 
@ʞɔᴉN fuck you too
 
xD
 
don't forget to pack your backpack and your pencil bag and your glue sticks and your paper
 
4:34 PM
??
 
@Lalaland well yeah, that one guarantee gives you lots of optimizations and other benefits, such as benefits to multiple consumers, etc.
 
@FlorianMargaine <3
 
The function above does what you expect
 
meow?
 
It adds 4 and returns a list
But it also changed the original list from under your feet
 
4:35 PM
So anyone else accessing mutableList needs to know that it can change at any time because of that add call
 
But wait, it allocated a NEW list
is that right?
\
 
Similar to how global variables are problematic, these unexpected side effects can be very confusing.
 
Yes.
 
@Major0 in my example? No.
 
guys can we change the topic??
 
4:35 PM
I passed a mutable list
@yeppe No?
 
Oh, in his example, it didn't.
If his example was immutable, it would.
 
@yeppe what's wrong with it?
 
:( its all mutable and immutable ...
 
@MadaraUchiha Sorry I mean when you use an immutable list, it would allocate a new list. What if you had a big list?
mutable == changeable. immutable == unchangeable
 
@Major0 Then, because the way it's implemented behind the scenes, most of the references would be reused
 
4:36 PM
@yeppe You see that text, at the top right?
 
And only a small portion of the list would actually have to be changed
 
@yeppe don't worry about terminologies
 
@Major0 its allocates a new list still, there are performance hits because of the extra work, luckily copying is pretty quick in most cases.
 
@Crazy Again, not all of the references are copied
 
hey, is there any way to merge SO accounts?
I deactivated my FB and now I can't log into my old account
(it's Elliot)
 
4:37 PM
@MadaraUchiha true, but thats an optimization/implementation detail, not really a general statemnet
 
Elliot from Mr. Robot? :o !
 
mr. robot?
 
NO he wouldn't have an FB acc XD
a series :P
 
haha cool.
 
Hacking n' shiz
 
4:38 PM
 
alright
went down to the hall
much better
 
@Major0 this is what happens when I change a single item
 
hmm...
 
Only the references in green were changed, the rest are the same references from before
So even with this very simple list, you get an insanely high % of reference reuse.
 
@MadaraUchiha I don't get it, I'm smelling an overhead here. Like when you allocate a new list. Even though if you are copying, it's still overhead man.

(and I'm looking at the diagram atm)
 
4:39 PM
@Major0 You should watch the lecture
 
"rules": {
    "semi": [2, "always"]
}
^ that should mandate semicolons, right? (.eslintrc)
 
He explains it better than me, and the diagrams make sense
 
Yes will surely do tonight.
 
yeah.. thats because the child is changed but this will only take time equivalent to height of the tree... thats the power of trees
 
@FlorianMargaine Your room probably has a better download speed than my house :S
 
4:40 PM
@Callum no
@Callum I couldn't go on SO chatroom from my room
 
OH
 
the page just wouldn't load
 
so it's SO not SOF
I'm new to this, FEAR ME xD
 
I still can't figure out how to read files one line at a time in nodejs :|
 
4:41 PM
Okay, mine's is a bit faster than your's then,
SoF? Dafuq? You even acronym bro?
 
Apparently not :P
 
luv you guys... you guys rock!
the techsavvys!
 
@Major0 what's SOF?
 
@yeppe I know I do :p
 
you too yepee XD your name is cool :P
FLORIAN STOop RUBBING IT IN :P I GET IT
IT'S SO xD
 
4:42 PM
@Major0 but... is it something?
 
ARGH
 
SoF? Stack overFlow?
 
lolz.. wots in a name that you call a rose by any other name that would smell as sweet :P shkspr
 
I do this not to mistake it with the word "so" :p
 
dunno, I'm curious
ooooh it means stackoverflow, ok
 
4:43 PM
seriously :p
 
@Callum you do but beware of pride and arrogance!
 
@Major0 That's why you can use either a) context, or b) capitals ;p
 
whatta troll coughs
 
@yeppe pfft.
 
jk :p
 
4:44 PM
nah jkk
 
What's worse? Ignorance or Apathy?
 
jquery
 
the "or" between them
 
JS
 
@Callum I don't know and I don't care.
 
4:44 PM
haha jQ
 
@Retsam You! You win the internet!
 
@Callum
 
jQuery is amazing how dare you question its brilliance?
 
jQuery is such a scapegoat :P
we need something/somebody to blame :P
 
jquery is the reason javascript is looked down upon
 
4:46 PM
perhaps
 
(thanks, obama)
 
hmm JS is good man!
 
JQuery is a symptom of why Javascript is looked down on, not the cause.
 
@Retsam no it's definitely the cause <3
absolutely.
zero argument.
jquery is just the worst.
 
Morons are why javascript is looked down on; jQuery does create convenience, if you use it right, but morons abuse the shit out of it, and make all javascript look like shit spaghetti.
 
4:47 PM
i take it this way JS is the Cause and Jquery is the effect Whozzt
 
@MadaraUchiha thanks for exposing me/us to this immutable js thing :p and quad trees xD I will be watching the talk and researching this today.
 
if the cause is good then effect will reign supreme!
pfft ;)
 
The actual issue is that a lot of Javascript has a ton of inexperienced devs; who are drawn to (and then misuse) jQuery.
 
You do Shakespeare a lot dontcha? xD
 
!!s/ton/metric fuck-tonne/
 
4:49 PM
@Retsam Agreed
 
nah .... no body can... that English is heavy..
 
The low barrier to entry of JS is both a really good part of JS, IMO, but also why it's so looked down on.
 
user406009
@Nick JavaScript also has some serious issues.
 
pretty much, yes. I'm forced to agree.
 
user406009
Null and undefined for example.
 
4:49 PM
oh my God XD I just noticed. @Nick and @ʞɔᴉN has the same profile pic, but inverted
(upside down)
 
@Lalaland yes, yes it does
 
I'm digging this, dual personality schema :P jk xD
 
no
 
ʞɔᴉN is just Australian.
 
gday mate
 
4:50 PM
LOL
 
xD
Jesus Christ how the heck did I end up here :P xD
it's a cool place though :) cool people helpful admin, and had some misconceptions cleared about JS
 
Major0, I have been thinking the same thing. Came about a week ago, I've not found the exit door, yet.
 
lol
 
more than a week, @Callum.
it's screwing with your sense of time
 
A week ago vine rolls in
 
4:52 PM
@Callum We can show you out. Your jokes are bad, and we would be more than happy to kick you
 
You know you love my jokes, Nick.
 
lol so bad humor is a tumor? xD
 
no
 
he's a cheeky bastard for sure
 
@Major0 @Nick inverted(@Nick) apparel oft proclameth a man
@ʞɔᴉN
 
4:53 PM
xD
A singularity is being manifested, for Nick and his reverse colliding
 
@yeppe Type @k for ʞɔᴉN's handle
 
yeah
i did
thx
 
all you have to do is type @, then hit tab
 
:o
 
@ʞɔᴉN's handle is supreme
 
4:53 PM
surprisingly true ^
 
my javascript code bad... suggest me please hastebin.com/usocugekis
 
the ultimate handle.
 
@Retsam JavaScript has a combination of having a relatively low entry bar, and being the only language you may choose from when writing web applications
 
@Nick my name was "nick" for months and there wasn't nearly this much confusion, I don't get it
 
@Major0 one day you get some misconceptions cleared, the next one you're learning lisp /cc @MadaraUchiha
 
4:54 PM
@ʞɔᴉN @Loktar still got confused a couple of times, be we forgive him
 
@cswl Protip: put the file extension on the end of the URL for forced syntax highlighting
 
@MadaraUchiha how is it going btw?
 
yeah well. @Loktar is a special guy
 
what's a promise in JS? lol
 
!!tell Major0 mdn Promise
 
4:55 PM
Something related to politics
 
@FlorianMargaine Pretty well
 
@rlemon bot is ded :(
 
ima look it up :p
 
uhh, where is cap?
 
4:55 PM
My name flipped upside down is pretty fun: ɹǝʇsɐɯ
 
!!live
 
jail.
 
HAHA a bot in here? just like IRC
 
Cap is deed
 
Although I still can't shake the feeling that Lisp is this overly theoretical language that's good to learn for the concepts and ideas, but isn't really useful IRL :P
 
4:56 PM
cap is doing time for tax evasion
 
@MadaraUchiha Well there's always Dart...
 
nah her ship finally blew up
 
@MadaraUchiha how come? parsing real language? :P
 
if anyone wants some bounty and knows nginx, i could use some help stackoverflow.com/questions/31728037/…
 
@MadaraUchiha well, aren't my projects the proof of the opposite? :P
@MadaraUchiha maybe you haven't done the practical chapters of PCL?
 
A_V
4:57 PM
Hi, I'm doing a C# MVC web app and I'm trying to integrate a Jquery file uploading feature to my site, what's a good way to start ? Can someone get me a hand getting started with a plugin ?
 
@FlorianMargaine I have, CD database and Unit Test Framework, so far.
 
>waiting for the SO team to merge my account
 
nighters guys!!
 
night...ers?
nighters!
 
"for you guys" All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players: they have their exits and their entrances; and one man in his time plays many parts, his acts being seven ages.
 
4:59 PM
@MadaraUchiha CD as in Compiler Design?
 
@MadaraUchiha Maybe you should try another functional language then
 

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