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4:00 PM
graaahhh the external interface issue was in the swf I was provided.
 
I'm very tempted to check out bigdirtyandy.com, but my brain is saying.. no.
 
user50049
Howdy all :)
 
hello
 
Hola Tim
 
user50049
Just want to make a quick check - is the room bot currently running with the auto-greeter enabled? I have too much rep to trigger it
 
4:03 PM
I think so
1 hour ago, by Caprica Six
@abdulraziq Welcome to the JavaScript chat! Please review the room pseudo-rules. Please don't ask if you can ask or if anyone's around; just ask your question, and if anyone's free and interested they'll help.
 
!!welcome TimPost
 
@TimPost Welcome to the JavaScript chat! Please review the room pseudo-rules. Please don't ask if you can ask or if anyone's around; just ask your question, and if anyone's free and interested they'll help.
 
Not auto, but there you go
 
user50049
Ah okay, not auto - that's fine.
 
@NinjaEcho Introduce Tim Post!
 
4:04 PM
@TimPost Welcome to JavaScript! Please read the FAQ.
 
well not always said
 
there are limits.
 
user50049
Can you guys set it so that it doesn't greet anyone unless someone in the room tells it to greet someone? Hang on a sec, getting a link
 
it only greets you once, and it doesn't greet users with x+ rep
 
4:05 PM
@TimPost one a side-note, you don't really live on the Phillipines, right?
 
user50049
@GNi33 Yes, I really live in The Philippines
 
@TimPost No, it's completely out of control...
 
user50049
4
A: Some issues with a recent action that was taken regarding the Root Access chat bot

balphaI suspended the bot because of the greeting, and only because of that, which is also what I told you in my chat message. Root Access is the general chat room for users of Super User, and any new user coming in being curious about the chat will have that bot greeting them. That is a functionality...

 
holy crap
 
user50049
Well, if the chat bot is going to go sentient, then .. this is the room for it :)
 
4:06 PM
@TimPost @Zirak
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Zirak is afk: hurricane
@BenjaminGruenbaum zirak is afk: being zirak
 
user50049
If you don't mind, just make sure it doesn't automatically greet new users, it's something that we just realized that bot did and we'd rather not have chat auto greeting folks (and if we did, it'd be something we officially implemented) - but triggering the greeting is fine, no worries there
 
@TimPost If you don't intend to fix the many problems with the chat systems we complain about in meta. The least you can do is not get in our way when we hack around the system. Frankly, we don't really care what happens in superuser chat.
 
but out of curiosity, what is the issue with the auto greeting?
outside of room traffic
(which no one in here has complained about after we put the limits on it)
 
I think the important point was this one :
> Root Access is the general chat room for users of Super Use
There's no such problem for our room
 
4:09 PM
!!tell zirak afk
 
@zirak I already told you, nobody cares.
 
ok, so wouldn't their fork be the one that needs to remove the auto greeting?
 
case sensitivity...
 
user50049
@rlemon It's a feature that we deliberately did not introduce in the system - so we really don't want to have this on in the main rooms, or the main language rooms on SO (since SO really doesn't have a 'main' room)
 
The bot is open source. Rooms are welcome to change it to match their etiquette.
 
4:09 PM
Do we have to rename the room to make it look less "main room" ?
 
but in that argument, SO also didn't create any of the features the bot implements.
so?
 
^
 
v
 
4:10 PM
I mean, cool I will get rid of it at a mods request but I really don't see the point
 
user50049
Right, we're just asking that you disable the auto greeting, not the greeting altogether.
 
everyone always ignores the greeting anyway
 
@TimPost Why?
2
 
and asks if they can ask a question
 
4:11 PM
The objection is: it bothers room regulars.
In this room, room regulars decide on the features.
 
besides that the auto-greet - function is utterly useless, may I ask what the problem is?
 
Other rooms on other sites can do whatever they want.
 
@TimPost I don't quite understand (I'm not that old here at all, so pardon my.. ignorance?) why an autogreeting is so bad
 
I like the autogreeting
 
right, and i'm not saying I will not. I just don't see the point in removing it, and your reasoning (not a SO feature so the bot cannot implement it) is not very sound :/ just saying.
 
4:11 PM
I don't see the point of autogreeting and wouldn't fight over it
 
@TimPost We spend a lot of time fixing and hacking around features the chat doesn't hate because we have a respectable community here, we do a lot of constructive things too.
 
I'm not fighting for or against it. I just want to know the real reason for this
 
I don't see the point in disabling a feature because some other room doesn't like it.
 
and why it would be enforced on all rooms and not just the rooms that want it
 
^ mostly canvas art <.<
 
4:12 PM
It's not about auto greeting, it's about not fixing problems in one hand and then suddenly caring about features we implement when they're abused in other rooms.
 
g2g, sorry
 
@pablofiumara Welcome to the JavaScript chat! Please review the room pseudo-rules. Please don't ask if you can ask or if anyone's around; just ask your question, and if anyone's free and interested they'll help.
 
the auto greeting was implemented (in this room) to avoid us having to hand hold. if we have to greet each new user manually we might as well not have the feature all together
 
user50049
@BenjaminGruenbaum I'm not at all disputing that - I only stopped in because we're asking all rooms using the auto greeting to turn it off. This isn't in any way saying you were doing something bad , it's just a feature that we don't want implemented (officially, or through user controlled bots)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum sometimes I really think building a whole new chat-app with the participation of the room here would be a good thing
 
4:14 PM
The first result will be more greetings : instead of having it only once, non-regulars will be manually greeted just in case...
 
I still don't see a why to the want here.
 
can we get a reason why you don't want it there though?
 
@TimPost and I'm not saying you should implement that, but this room is run by its community. If the people here were bothered by the bot greeting we'd disable it.
 
I'm really curious?
 
Bob
@BenjaminGruenbaum I'd just like to say that this isn't a case of the other room(s) "not liking it", it's a decision by SE.
 
4:15 PM
set it up somewhere, implement all the features you want, and maybe there's a way to connect it with SO in the same way this one is
 
and if bots really are limited in what they can and cannot do, is there any chance to get a meta post outlining what is acceptable from a bot?
 
@Bob Yay for more people who've never been here telling us how to act in this room.
7
 
@TimPost I'm not opposed to disabling it, but I agree with @rlemon. I'd like some more concrete reasoning as to why it should not be implemented.
 
Bob
As far as I know, so far the regulars on the other room(s) haven't asked for the removal of the autogreeting.
 
this way we wouldn't need to bitch on meta about stuff that would make sense on a regular basis
 
4:15 PM
@GNi33 We'd miss occasional new and interesting users coming here because of their interest in SO+JavaScript
 
Bob
@BenjaminGruenbaum Hey, I'm not trying to tell any of you how to act...?
 
@Bob He's talking about Timmy
 
@dystroy that's right and it would be the biggest issue to overcome
 
@TimPost If other rooms abuse our bot disable those bots, if someone is being an idiot with technology it's not the technologies fault. Blaming technology never works. Moreover, the bot is really useful. We use it for a lot of other things, eval, short calls to APIs, wikipedia things, birthdays etc.
 
0
Q: If I divide 500 to 12 equal parts, then round to two decimals and multiply by 12 I get 500,04?

Alexandru Trandafir CatalinI am programming a form where user enters a amount and that amount has to be divided into 12 equal parts: So I enter: 500,00 And divide it by 12: 41.666666666667 And I round it to two decimals: 41.67 Then I calculate the sum of the 12 parts again and it gives me more than the original amount: 5...

 
4:17 PM
Quiet @Feeds not now!
 
going from auto greetings to manual greetings looks like the opposite of what our job (automation) is about
 
@TimPost Every single feature request we make does not get any treatment. Not even a clear "no, we're not going to do that".
 
like I said, I am not fighting for keeping the auto greeting. I have no investment in it either way. however removing this for the reasons stated makes very little sense. can we get some actual reasons behind this?
 
76
Q: Flags in chat are defective by design

Benjamin GruenbaumYes, I know the topic has been discussed before. I know that Meta already has threads that complain about how flagging doesn't work. I wanted to give a practical example. Today, a user came in to the JavaScript chat and asked the following question: Hey guys, as soon as I embed javascript,...

 
@dystroy but would it be impossible? I don't think so, the new app would just need to gain some reputation
 
4:18 PM
@dystroy manual greetings would be too much effort and wouldn't happen until the user already did what the greeting is intended on stopping
 
Its 21* C outside what is this europe ? This home weather you are drunk
 
@rlemon It's not about the greeting at all. No one really feels strongly about the greeting.
 
so the command would just be binned imo
 
@AbhishekHingnikar It's 23°C inside. (yes, my wife really don't like the cold)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum it perhaps would start an influx of "Hi can I ask this question here?"
 
4:19 PM
@dystroy inside its 28 :-)
i like mild warm temperature
 
@rlemon I don't think it should be binned. Maybe just changed to be more reactionary than prevention... ary... PREVENTIVE! That's the word.
 
@RUJordan Not a huge deal.
 
Er... reactive*
 
-- 6 months later it'd be 45 Celcius outside for me --
 
@AbhishekHingnikar It's about 37.5 °C inside of me
 
4:21 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum no not at all, just a possible outcome of what they want.
 
!!/welcome RUJordan
 
Which I don't think they're going to respond, unless they're typing a novel over there.
 
@RUJordan Welcome to the JavaScript chat! Please review the room pseudo-rules. Please don't ask if you can ask or if anyone's around; just ask your question, and if anyone's free and interested they'll help.
 
(just testing)
 
D'aww thanks man!
 
4:21 PM
@RUJordan It's not about features - it's about lack of participation, and arbitrary decision making. That and not treating anything on meta we post about chat.
 
(and in case you weren't auto-great)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I completely agree. I don't even feel like I have a say in the matter, but all I saw here was, like I said, a want without a why.
@dystroy udabest
 
Doesn't matter, he probably left already anyway.
 
Well. I guess it should be turned off, before we have hammers thrown at us.
Or, more specifically, our beloved Caprica
 
4:25 PM
well they are bitching about the fuckable command as well
 
@dystroy you have fever ?
 
balpha wants that removed and the greeting disabled.
 
@rlemon Why not say it to us?
 
!!/fuckable
 
@dystroy This is srs bsns, please treat it as such (see /help fuckable).
 
4:25 PM
If they have a problem with our chat they're welcome to discuss it here.
 
..Do I want to know what the fuckable command does.. lol
 
Well he just suggested to reconsider the command. Not demanded it to be removed...
 
!!/help fuckable
 
@dystroy fuckable: Calculates the lower boundary according to age/2+7 rule. /fuckable age
 
@ThiefMaster Ban him
 
4:26 PM
!!fuckable 2
 
@CapricaSix This function does seem useless and immature anyway...
 
@AbhishekHingnikar A person that age can shag down to 56.5, and is the lower limit of a person of 184 years.
 
@ThiefMaster True, no issue with balpha.
 
@AbhishekHingnikar You're one sick puppy. A person that age can shag down to -10, and is the lower limit of a person of 8 years.
 
I would still like some solid reasoning why the auto greet should be removed from every room.
even balphas answer contradicts this
 
4:27 PM
LOL
omg that's too much..
 
-10 seems legit
 
@rlemon how so?
 
> If a room is specifically created for a bot, or the room's purpose is very specific to a well-defined group of people who consider the bot fitting and its greeting appropriate, we don't have any issues with it.
we fit into the latter category
> the room's purpose is very specific to a well-defined group of people who consider the bot fitting and its greeting appropriate
Javascript is our purpose, and we accept the greeting
 
Yay loopholes
 
lol...
 
4:28 PM
You are the JavaScript room, the room for the third-most popular tag on SO.
 
because it is a popular language
 
on github*
 
Maybe we should just rename the room
 
we are still a niche room
we can be Fluffytown again
that was fun
 
is niche
 
4:29 PM
@balpha the bot also does a lot of helpful stuff
 
he isn't saying axe the bot
just that message guys
 
@AbhishekHingnikar So? Nobody is asking to remove the bot
 
is über-niche
 
for instance instead of having to run code for all of us we can just use the bot to demonstrate an awesome moment :-)
 
now that I am getting better with canvas, it is creating a huge distraction for work lol
 
4:29 PM
this room isn't even about javascript :P
 
@balpha sorry, i usally don't get context of convos :x
 
and change the fuckable command, which I'm not apposed to, but if it is solely for the sake of profanity... can you think of a better command name?
 
@AbhishekHingnikar: it's just about the auto-greeting...
 
sexable
 
@nderscore not today, today is about Juice :)
 
4:30 PM
@rlemon: socially-acceptable :P
 
on a mildly related note, why does this room have 5.3k people on the access list?
 
@rlemon make-love-able ?
 
@nderscore Well... It is. Not exclusively but it is.
 
bangable?
 
baby-makable
 
4:30 PM
We could rename the room to Codegolf. Everybody loves Codegolf
 
@balpha We're also one of the more constructive rooms. We answer a lot of questions on the site, discuss site matters, and contribute when able.
 
@balpha: to mute troublemakers (i think there's a meta post about it somewhere)
 
@balpha we move in and out of Gallery when trolls come in
 
@copy I support this motion
 
:( I want to stay the Javascript room
 
4:30 PM
I too support codegolf
 
johnson-jellyable
 
and the bot manages stuff for us :D
 
what even caused all of this?
 
The bot has been around for months now with the auto greeting..
 
4:31 PM
how about /safeforintercourse ?
 
nderscore /safeformakinglovelegally ?
 
once everyone leaves after 6 or so Eastern the bot is very helpful
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yeah, and nobody ever said anything else
 
/cansafelylay
 
4:31 PM
I honestly believe that the people deciding on the bot or not are the community of the room. Stack Overflow has always worked on community decisions. This has been working really well for us in JavaScript and we find the bot extremely useful. Other rooms who fork the bot need to reason about it and decide on what they like and what they don't. The room's community should be capable of handling that and deciding on usefulness pretty well. I think your course of action is correct. (Oh and btw !!/die stops the bot if it's annoying, no need to disable the user) — Benjamin Gruenbaum 1 min ago
 
@nderscore Do we really need this feature ?
 
I've seen many people thank @CapricaSix (due to the auto greeting)
 
^^
same.
 
first time users -> like 50:50 like the greeting
 
4:32 PM
Well... new users on the verge of vampirizing us are often undiscernibly polite...
 
@balpha the greeting is because it's one of the rooms with the most traffic. The original idea behind the greeting was to be able to tell users that if they have a question they should just ask it rather than asking to ask, and to point them to useful resources.
 
I was half convinced Caprica wasn't a bod when she greeted me
 
Can we make it so that Caprica doesn't pings them ?
she just posts a message making their name bold ?
 
@CapricaSix saved me from a life of alcohol and substance abuse. Her sweet greeting gave me hope that I could change and turn my life around. I'd probably be dead in an alley by now otherwise.
8
 
I know JavaScript, thank you. It's kinda my job. I have unsuspended the bot. — balpha 8 mins ago
 
4:33 PM
something like

Hi **Abhishek Hingnikar** welcome to the javascript room, please read the rules -blah -blah -blah blah-
 
@balpha that wasn't intended as a poke on you
 
why is everybody hating!!!
 
I was merely stating (for the benefit of all) that the bots commands are mostly all plugins
 
its Tuesday!
 
I imagine most rooms just fork, build, and move on
 
4:34 PM
.. fuckable should be forkable. Done and done.
 
This is the longest we haven't discussed any JavaScript in a while. Someone say something about backbone so I can say it sucks xD
 
backbone.js
..
 
What is backbone and why does it suck?
 
I have an interview on Thu I think they will ask me backbone qeustions :?
 
@rlemon I'm pretty sure it was
 
4:35 PM
@Loktar well anything is possible
 
I've only used it on one site lol in the summer so I will fail hard
 
@RUJordan it's this horrible framework that imposes restrictions and doesn't do separation of concerns xD
@Loktar Addy Osmani has a pretty decent book on Backbone btw.
 
@balpha alright then. think whatever you want. it wasn't a poke on you regardless of what you think.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum thougts about Ember? :P
 
@Loktar did you ask what they would be asking you about?
 
4:35 PM
but I can see you are not looking at this rationally anymore
 
@rlemon how do you know?
 
can't hurt to ask
 
@stewbydoo I did not. But I assume backbone (maybe angular) and general JS
 
@balpha because I wrote the comment! If I wanted to poke at you I would admit to poking at you !
 
@GNi33 @connor.js likes it. I think it's ok, I used it for a thing or two, I think it's not as good as AngularJS right now but it has a lot of potential. I'd definitely try it out before formulating a decision if I were you though - it's worth considering.
 
4:36 PM
idk I dont think I will do very well.. but its a good experience regardless
 
@balpha it's true. @rlemon is ruthless, if he did.. you'd know.
 
I mean did the job description say anything about those libs?
 
:D
 
@Loktar Backbone is worth learning, that way you can estimate how bad it really is xD
 
@nderscore that is beautiful.
 
4:37 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum yeah, I stumbled over what looks like a pretty nice article for starters today, will give it a read in the evening
 
@rlemon No you didn't
allquixotic did
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum lol that sounds fun.
 
So, simple question so we can all move on -- Has the bot autogreeting been turned off, if it ever was on?
 
@balpha I was talking about my comment on your post
 
@GNi33 Yeah, is it the one that was recently on ycombinator? It looked decent.
@balpha don't trust rlemon, he's one sick puppy :P
!!/slidepoop
 
4:38 PM
Mar 13 at 1:40, by rlemon
(Random Fact, when rlemon was 13 he pooped on a slide. he isn't proud of it, but he felt it was time to confess. I'm sorry slide.)
 
just had a look, it's even on Smashing
 
LOLWHAT
 
Yeah, that's the one
 
@rlemon given that your comment is from one second before mine, do you really think I was answering to you?
 
4:38 PM
#JudgingYou
 
Yeah, that's the one. If you want to really learn read the source code. I heard it's decent.
 
@balpha in the context of the two comments, it looks like you were. I didn't notice the time stamp
 
Guys, can we have an answer to the last balpha question ? Even if all the room users disagree, we have to comply
 
@dystroy i'm working on it
 
yeah, I need to dive into one of those frameworks anyhow, might as well use that article as starting point
 
4:39 PM
I have to find where Zirak put it in the listeners
 
@rlemon I was responding to the comment that said "If you don't understand javascript". I've added a @mention to clarify. I wasn't talking to you.
 
@dystroy do we?
@balpha Yes, it can. We'd love more reasoning though.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum You mean "do we have to comply ?" or "do we disagree?" ?
 
^^
 
I still don't see why autogreetings are so bad. Can you enlighten me?
 
4:40 PM
I've been practically begging for some sound reasoning
 
@dystroy comply.
 
AND, not to mention the reasoning given had exception cases which we fall into
 
(And no, I'm not for or against it. I just want to know why FFS)
 
@dystroy can u tell me what he wants to say ?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum "Yes it can" means it hasn't?
 
4:40 PM
@balpha like I said i'm working on it
 
It's a SE design-decision to explicitly NOT greet users in their chatrooms, especially the more frequently used
 
just caprica says hello or caprica stays silent till shes missed ?
 
I didn't write the bot and the person who did isn't here
 
@balpha Yes it can means that it's possible to do so in the bot's source.
 
we're using SE as a platform, so I do understand that we would need to turn the autogreeting off
it doesn't add any value anyhow, to be totally honest
 
I'm not re-building
 
!!tell balpha help
 
I'm just changing her in the console.
and @FlorianMargaine afaik that doesn't axe the listener
 
@balpha we'd love reasoning though. We'd like to think that the community moderation in SO works in a way where decisions are made with the community and not against it. Moreover, I'm not convinced you'll ban Caprica and annoy the whole room here that's full of people who advocate SO in very professional forums and drive people here before you'll have a discussion about it.
 
4:42 PM
@rlemon oh so you are doing an open heart surgery on her ? :-) good luck man !
 
@FlorianMargaine We do need to keep the manual greeting function, though
 
@GNi33 that's it? They say so, we comply, no reasoning behind it?
 
Bob
@FlorianMargaine Wrong part.
 
@rlemon then look in IO.events
 
Bob
That's the !!welcome command - you want to comment the block above it.
 
4:42 PM
@RUJordan what reasoning would you expect?
 
it's explicitely not wanted by the SE - staff that there are auto-greetings in the chatrooms
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Nobody said we want to ban the bot. Please stop making things up.
 
            //I'm parsing html with regexps. hopefully Cthulu won't eat me.
            // <a href="/transcript/17">7</a>
            // <a href="/transcript/17">47.1k</a>
lol
 
damn totalitarianism
 
4:43 PM
seems like this has been discussed and agreed upon that this should not be a thing on SE
 
@balpha I never said you'll ban the bot. I said you won't... that's kind of not the same thing :P
 
@GNi33 I just don't see why autogreetings are so frowned upon all of a sudden. shrug
 
@AbhishekHingnikar haha
 
so I do understand why they want the autogreet - feature to be gone, even if it's provided by a "third party"
 
now i realize why is this fuss about all this , caprica has summoned cthulu and balpha is just worried she will consume us all !
 
4:45 PM
@balpha but there still isn't concrete reason to remove this feature outside of what is written in that meta post. and if niche rooms whose user base deems the message acceptable wants the message, you said it is ok
 
@GNi33: I think his point is that he'd like to know why it shouldn't be a thing
 
@GNi33 where?
 
wouldn't this entire conversation kinda fall into that latter category?
 
@AbhishekHingnikar There's a distinction to be made : "parsing html with regex : bad". "Picking things in HTML with regex : well, it depends".
 
4:45 PM
@ThiefMaster my god, thank you. That's all I want to know.. T_T
 
I'd like to see more transparency into the reasoning behind not wanting autogreet.
 
@rlemon: Check one of the older messages (TLDR: "room for one of the 3 most popular tags on SO")
 
@dystroy still bad
 
@ThiefMaster yeah, i know, i only read that sentence in balpha's answer on meta
> That is a functionality that the Stack Exchange chat system specifically and intentionally does not offer, and a user-written bot shouldn't either.
intentionally
 
@AbhishekHingnikar is that one of Crockford's Commandments?
 
4:46 PM
@ThiefMaster so just because our room became popular it is no longer a community driven room? when did this rule come into play?!
 
I can't answer any questions on how this decision was made, or who made it, but it seems that it was made to me
 
.
 
Time to migrate to horse-grooming.
 
I didn't say this. I just repeated the argument. I'm staying out of the actual discussion because I think it's better that way.
 
room topic changed to Not JavaScript: WE LOVE JUICE DAY! Room rules: rlemon.github.com/so-chat-javascript-rules [consistency-of-suckiness] [ecmascript] [horse-grooming]
 
4:47 PM
What's a good saddle girth for a piebald stallion?
 
Well someone should have a voice on the other side. Because we're not being given many answers
 
Many = any.
 
@ThiefMaster I think so to.
 
So, if we rename the room to ChatBot with JavaScript, then it'll be a room about the bot with a side-discussion of JavaScript and we'll be able to have autogreet? :P
 
I'd like to have reasoning behind it myself, on the other hand I do think that we as users of a certain platform have to obey to some decisions made by the staff of said platform though
 
4:49 PM
@FlorianMargaine Is that actually true? The bot changes user access settings for this room?
 
@balpha nope, it can't
 
why do you want autogreet so much? I haven't really read a cogent argument for that.
 
we do it manually -- the room access settings
 
k
 
4:49 PM
@Loktar I saw a script of yours the other day that had continuous background
 
@Sklivvz we haven't seen a cogent argument otherwise either :P
 
was it on your site?
 
@Sklivvz IIRC. many new people used to ask "can I plz ask a question?" etc. when joining.
 
@SumanRay Welcome to the JavaScript chat! Please review the room pseudo-rules. Please don't ask if you can ask or if anyone's around; just ask your question, and if anyone's free and interested they'll help.
 
@Sklivvz We don't care that much about autogreet. That's not the point. That was never the point.
 
4:50 PM
!!die
 
We made it because it tells people some common rules, and also tells them not ask just to ask just ask
 
all of this reading is distracting me from changing the script
 
however, the bot does automatically give read/write access to the room. What it can't change is whether the room is public or read-only
 
she is dead for now
 
4:50 PM
Nooooooo, Capricaaaaaa! /*slowmo/*
 
caprica dead
 
Balls, that didn't work.
 
@FlorianMargaine yeah, that has to go
 
caprica dead :-[]
 
@balpha Fix the flag system, please. We'd LOVE for that to go.
 
4:51 PM
@balpha but the access control as is is broken
which is why we implemented this
 
@balpha okay, why? because this is a useful feature
 
@balpha then we need a better solution. As seen in the comments of the gist, Thief gave a ping or two apparently
 
@Sklivvz We just try to maintain a "don't ask to ask, just ask" policy around here and, as it's a hard fight, we use a tool. The goal is to keep being inclusive while not being submerged.
 
i want some reasoning behind this right now, because the system as is does not provide anything that could replace that
 
we asked for this on meta many times and the reply was "too much work"
so we fixed it
 
4:51 PM
@balpha We hate that feature. We hate that feature. We really all hate that feature so very very much. It was not added happily. As it stands, we can't remove abusive users easily.
 
let's keep going with a serious discussion please...
 
good move, @florian, the discussion is hard enough
 
funny aint it ?
the messages got moved but not the stars :-( , nderscores :P
 
@balpha we don't want to handle abusive users ourselves . We want to talk about JavaScript. If you figure out a way to let us do that and give us the ability to deal with abusers we'd love that. Please fix this.
 
@balpha create a ban feature for room server side ? we won't need a bot to so then
 
4:53 PM
@dystroy I don't undersand. Instead of having users asking "Can I ask a question?" you prefer having a bot telling "Don't do that" with a ping? I still don't see it
 
@AbhishekHingnikar @balpha no, please don't. We don't want to ban users at all. We don't want to deal with maintenance, we don't want to deal with abusive users.
 
@Sklivvz Did you read the greeting ?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum why not... just like a mere mute should do ?
 
!!/welcome Sklivvz
 
@balpha this feature was added after some users were repeatedly banned by mods, recreating accounts, rebanned, etc. Every time, mods were just annoyed after a while and didn't/couldn't do much (they weren't all the time there.)
 
4:54 PM
and also something that opens a dialog which shows them the rules , everybody loves dialogs no ?
 
4 mins ago, by Caprica Six
@SumanRay Welcome to the JavaScript chat! Please review the room pseudo-rules. Please don't ask if you can ask or if anyone's around; just ask your question, and if anyone's free and interested they'll help.
 
@AbhishekHingnikar No, muting is a bad solution to a problem we can't solve otherwise - they however - can.
 
@Sklivvz You see, it's not "Don't ask" at all
 
If SO implements a better feature - we'd love that.
 
@FlorianMargaine That is not a feature. That is deliberate abuse of the SE chat system. IMO anyway.
 
4:55 PM
"Don't ask to ask"
 
@balpha Of course it is... we did that because we had no choice :/
No one here likes !!/mute, seriously.
 
You mentioned yourself we are 3rd biggest tag on SO
 
We're defenseless against all sorts of trolls, vamps and spammers who come here.
 
@RUJordan: the discussion right now is about !!/mute
 
so our access control plugin is abuse?
 
4:56 PM
we get tons of garbage in the room people asking how to do basic stuff , never wanting to learn
and pinging more then a bot does.
 
but it ONLY uses in place features ANY room owner can use
 
Ah, pardon me @ThiefMaster.
 
Also, !!mute has been running here for months , why now?
 
@balpha then show us a better solution. We do know that it's a bad solution, but it's the best we found that would ease the burden of room people + mods.
 
so if I did it all by hand what (aside from my time) would be the harm?
 
4:56 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum because @FlorianMargaine just now told me about it
 
I see absolutely no abuse here
 
@dystroy still fail to see the use of the automatic side of it, which is what is being contested (I don't mind how you phrase your welcomes to newbies)
 
@Sklivvz @balpha All our bot does is fix things that we ask for in meta and don't get fixed.If they were fixed, we'd love to remove them. We'd love problems to be given solutions by SE staff but we're being constantly and consistently ignored in meta.
 
@rlemon that wouldn't work :)
 
exactly, because the system doesn't work and no one has the time to fix it / do this by hand
 
4:57 PM
@balpha Here's a scenario. Someone comes to this room and spams, for weeks, day after day. What do we do?
 
so workarounds are here, and those workarounds ONLY use the tools in place by SE
 
@AbhishekHingnikar: Bad example since that kind of abuse would be more than enough reason for an actual suspension from chat
 
please people, let's not spam...
 
@ThiefMaster well deep did that kind of stuff didn't he ?
and okok ?
 
4:59 PM
@ThiefMaster you're not always here, and there is no reasons for bans to be chat wide.
 
and .. < count 100s of help vampires we have named ? >
 
@ThiefMaster the people who forced us to make this system were banned multiple times
from SO
 
doesn't stop them from coming back...
 
I still fail to see how managing access control (and by managing I mean granting access) being automated is an abuse.
 
4:59 PM
I think deep was asking mostly incredibly stupid questions after being told to stop. Not sure anymore about the other troublemakers - that was too long ago
 

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