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2:41 PM
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A: Why is it important for corporate SO to maintain a fast new user growth rate?

Dukeling More questions (more money) If you want to be the go-to resource for just about every professional programmer in the world, you need as many questions as possible to make it more likely that any given question is already on the site. More users = more questions. Better users (more money) If pe...

 
I like the recurring theme! Checkout my question edit. Does it pay in the long run to go the extra nice mile?
Also, I do not think SO's alleged toxicity affects in anyway it being the "go to site". In fact, I wager most programmers have no idea if it's toxic or not. Really the questions is, how should SO maximize its expert user base, no? Adding useless questions seems like in the long run it will drown the good content (just like 0 users joining from now until forever, which I find unlikely).
 
@kabanus I think trying to keep the site from becoming (or staying) toxic can help keep experts around, rather than chase them away (because there aren't many people who want a toxic community). Although it's debatable whether simply telling people "be nice" is ignoring the underlying reason why they're not nice, and whether they'd be nice without having to be told if the underlying reason were sufficiently addressed.
 
Or whether there was a niceness problem to begin with, other than the interaction with an unneeded user base who allegedly misinterpret a lot? - I am not trying to be annoying, it seems this is a legitimate concern with veterans.
 
@kabanus I mean I personally don't much like seeing impolite comments on the main site, which there are plenty of, so an argument could be made that we actually have a niceness problem. But for me the much bigger problem is the questions that attract such comments, and dealing with the symptom is only likely to frustrate already frustrated users even more.
 
That is a well put argument, I agree.
 
2:41 PM
@kabanus #4 ("does 'be nice' efforts lead to overall worse questions") might be a discussion of its own, but no-one's saying we shouldn't downvote or close bad questions, so one could argue there isn't a risk of decreasing question quality (I mean, you'd be wrong to argue that, but no-one's stopping you from doing so). I've also seen an argument that questions no-one care about don't matter (because no-one sees them from a few hours after they were posted), but then the question becomes whether experts are happy dealing with such questions during those first few hours (they aren't).
 
You have to remember though, those new users will eventually be able to vote (quickly too). Enough users join in a short enough period, things might start to go south quickly.
 
As much as I hate the idea of SO being purely in it for the money, more and more it seems this is true.
 
@Dukeling " I think trying to keep the site from becoming (or staying) toxic can help keep experts around, rather than chase them away" The site is toxic because of the flood of garbage questions. Who cares if everyone is "nice" if there's nothing of value here? That seems to be what they are missing.
 
@Andy: "The site is toxic because of the flood of garbage questions." So, those garbage questions force people to be jerks? Those users actually reach through the screen and make it happen? Yes, the environment created by these questions does create frustration, which increases the chance of lashing out. But lashing out is always a choice. You don't have to do it, and crappy questions cannot make you. Don't use bad questions as an excuse for misbehavior.
 
@NicolBolas Are you a jerk when you yell at the guy letting his dog shit on your lawn? No, the guy letting shit be dumped on your lawn is the jerk.
 
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@Andy: A person being a jerk to you does not entitle you to be a jerk back. And yes, you are a jerk for yelling at someone for such a reason, when you could just as easily stop them from doing so in some other way. You act like the only two options are "let it happen" or "yell, scream and whine, hoping that this will stop the problem somehow".
 
@NicolBolas You're not being a jerk back when you call out the jerk. Frankly, it shouldn't even be necessary to call out the jerk, because they should already know better, just like a dog owner should not have to be told to keep his dogs shit off of other peoples lawn. That's what the Help/Faq is for. Letting people get away with being a jerk is a surefire way to ensure that their behavior continues.
 
@Andy: "You're not being a jerk back when you call out the jerk." You didn't say "call out the jerk"; you specifically said "yell at the guy". That's not the same thing, and the fact that you want to equate them is telling. "Letting people get away with being a jerk" Again, not yelling a people is not the same thing as letting them get away with their actions. Why do you have a hard time telling the difference?
 
@NicolBolas It is the same thing, because the jerk is starting in the hole; they come in knowing they are being a jerk, so being polite does not fix their behavior. Again, do you really think people are making a honest mistake when they let their dog shit on your lawn? Or do they already know they shouldn't be doing it right from the get go? Same thing here, when we have lots of pages about what you should do before you post a question.
 
@Andy: "they come in knowing they are being a jerk" Do they? There are some users who genuinely don't care about our rules; they want what they want and they'll do whatever it takes to get it. But there are some users who aren't like that. If you're polite to all of them, you'll still get rid of the bad ones, but you won't ward off the good ones. Nobody appreciates being yelled at.
 
@NicolBolas "There are some users who genuinely don't care about our rules" Yes, and they should be quickly chased off the site! "they want what they want and they'll do whatever it takes to get it." Those kinds of selfish jerks can F off. "Nobody appreciates being yelled at." Anyone that barges in without any consideration of the community, and then is surprised/upset when they get yelled at should go. Rational people will realize they violated community standards and probably should have checked first, apologize, and modify their behavior and then get along fine.
 
2:41 PM
@Andy: Tell me: have you ever, in real life, yelled at someone for something you consider objectively wrong, and then had them turn around, softly apologize, and move on? Of course not. Because people do not take well to being yelled at. This is basic human psychology 101 stuff here: if you want to encourage people not to do a thing, yelling at them simply is not an effective tool.
 
@NicolBolas Yes, rarely, but its happened. Most people of course don't think they're doing anything wrong, but it makes them go away. Which is the goal. Most people that the "be nice" policy is trying to defend are of the kind that "they want what they want and they'll do whatever it takes to get it." And those people need to be driven away.
 
@Andy: "it makes them go away. Which is the goal." Which shows the dysfunction in your thinking. The goal is to get them to stop doing it, not to make them go away. "Most people that the "be nice" policy are of the kind that "they want what they want and they'll do whatever it takes to get it."" We already have ways to get rid of them (question bans, etc). Being jerks to them has far too much collateral damage to employ in such a way. Indeed, such people tend to be impervious to weaponized jerkage; it only drives away reasonable users who don't want to have to tolerate jerks.
 
@NicolBolas As I said, most people that come here and get yelled at, know the rules, don't care, and just want what they wait. You even acknowledge that type of user. And my goal at least is very certainly to make them go away, because they will never adhere to the rules. Clearly the existing ways to get rid of them are not working, given the flood of dog shit piling up on the site. Indeed, the be nice policy encourages them to stay.
 
@Andy: "You even acknowledge that type of user." And yet, you cannot acknowledge what you just said: "given the flood of dog shit piling up on the site". Given that this "flood" has been happening since long before the "Welcoming" initiative, clearly being jerks does not keep them out. When you've proven that a method doesn't work, why do you want to keep doing it?
 
@NicolBolas It doesn't work when SO actively fights against it and penalizes those trying to keep quality up. But I like how you try to say my suggestion isn't working, so why keep doing it, when clearly what you suggested has been failing even longer.
 
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@Andy: "It doesn't work when SO actively fights against it and penalizes those trying to keep quality up." Again, the "flood" has been going on for far longer than this "Welcoming" thing. And yes, we had "Be nice" before, but if you honestly think that having everyone be an utter tosspot to every person who steps even remotely out of line is a good way to attract intelligent users to the site... well, you're just wrong.
 
@NicolBolas I like how you flat out ignore that downvoting / VTC has been what's failing the longest, so you can defend a policy which has nothing to do with addressing the quality of questions on this site, and is purely aimed at making money, all other concerns be damned.
 
@Andy: "I like how you flat out ignore that downvoting / VTC has been what's failing the longest" I ignored it because it's a non-sequitur. Downvoting and close voting is (mostly) succeeding at the task for which it is intended: sorting bad content and stopping inappropriate questions from getting answered. Yes, sometimes, questions don't get closed fast enough, but they are doing the jobs they're meant to. These tools are not meant to chase off problem users. So it's no surprise that those tools fail at that task.
@Andy: "you can defend a policy which has nothing to do with addressing the quality of questions on this site" There are plenty of policies that do not directly "address the quality of questions". That doesn't mean we shouldn't have such policies. "is purely aimed at making money, all other concerns be damned." That's your view of things, but I do not agree with it.
 
@NicolBolas No, its not sorting bad content & inappropriate questions, that exactly why people starting becoming frustrated and lashing out, which is what lead to the be nice policy, which is addressing completely the wrong problem. The problem is the quality of the site continuing to spiral, while people like you are more worried about "being nice" instead of doing something valuable.
@NicolBolas There wouldn't be a need for be nice if there was an effective way to get people to stop dumping garbage into this site.
 
@Andy: "There wouldn't be a need for be nice if there was an effective way to get people to stop dumping garbage into this site." Please do not pretend that every instance of being a jerk is due to bad questions.
 
@NicolBolas No of course your right, people just signed up to SO to be jerks to each other. /sarcasm
 
2:41 PM
@Andy: "its not sorting bad content & inappropriate questions" It isn't? So, bad questions frequently have high scores? People are able to answer questions after they get closed? I don't understand how these tools aren't doing the jobs I outlined. Again, the tools aren't to prevent someone from asking such a question; they're to categorize or close down a question that has already been asked.
@Andy: "No of course your right, people just signed up to SO to be jerks to each other." My point is that, even if 90% of all rudeness started from bad questions, that's still a good 10% of rudeness that still happens. So you would still require a "Be Nice" policy. Remember: the original Be Nice policy dates from 2010 (I believe).
 
@NicolBolas "So, bad questions frequently have high scores" Yes, many bad questions get upvotes; maybe not high scores, but are upvoted. "People are able to answer questions after they get closed?" They AREN'T BEING CLOSED. That's the problem. Because downvotes and VTC "isn't welcoming". "I don't understand how these tools aren't doing the jobs I outlined." Then you're clearly not looking at new questions that often.
 
@Andy: "Yes, many bad questions get upvotes; maybe not high scores, but are upvoted." Sure. I've seen lots of votes I disagree with. Are such questions getting more upvotes now than they have in the past? "They AREN'T BEING CLOSED. That's the problem. Because downvotes and VTC "isn't welcoming"." Citation needed. Where are you seeing questions not being downvoted or VTC'd due to a lack of "Welcoming"?
 
"My point is that, even if 90% of all rudeness started from bad questions, that's still a good 10% of rudeness that still happens." Yet even with some rudeness and without a be nice policy SO managed to survive in the beginning because dealing with a little rudeness was worth it thanks to the quality of the questions. If you're arguing for zero tolerance, that's plain silly, and never works anywhere.
@NicolBolas stackoverflow.com
 
@Andy: I'm unsure what a link to this site is attempting to communicate. "Yet even with some rudeness and without a be nice policy SO managed to survive in the beginning because dealing with a little rudeness was worth it thanks to the quality of the questions." And they added one, because there are a large number of people who do not want to share the site with jerks. Imagine that. And no, they didn't suddenly change their minds about such a policy; they simply didn't know they would need one. There was never some point in time when they wanted rude behavior.
 
@NicolBolas You're just being willfully ignorant. There are plenty of crap questions which remain open and attract equally crap answers. The be nice policy has nothing to di with "a large number of people don't want to share the site with jerks." Its there because a lot of people posting "y is my codez not working plz fix" really gets the ad impressions up.
 
2:41 PM
@Andy: "There are plenty of crap questions which remain open and attract equally crap answers." I never said otherwise. What I said was that the recent "Welcoming" initiative did not cause this. This happened before that started, and it's still happening now. Unless you have some evidence that the problem has intensified recently.
@Andy: There was no pre-"Be Nice" golden age, where all questions were good, all bad questions were instantly downvoted and closed, and anyone who stepped out of line was quickly shouted off the site.
 
@NicolBolas The welcoming initiative exacerbates it though. And just look at the SO main page for evidence. After you take off your rose colored glasses of course.
 
@Andy: "The welcoming initiative exacerbates it though." Prove it! If you truly know that, you should be able to demonstrate it in some way. "just look at the SO main page for evidence" My main page is not your main page; we have different posting histories and tag filters. The people in the C++ tag do a pretty good job of keeping out filth. Maybe that's not the case in the Python tag.
 
@NicolBolas No, when I first joined, the site was keeping up clearing out crap. There was no need to shout anyone way, the tools were enough. But the site got popular and the tools didn't keep up, and rather than think up something new SO decided ad revenue was more important and we got be nice instead.
@NicolBolas Your posting history doesn't change what shows on SO main page. Neither do tag filters; they just dim the questions, but don't remove them. Nice try though.
 
@Andy: "Your posting history doesn't change what shows on SO main page." Yes, it does. "Neither do tag filters; they just dim the questions, but don't remove them." That's only true on lists of questions off the main page. Like the main "Questions" page. The real SO homepage doesn't work like that.
 
@NicolBolas An eight year old blog post? I'm sure they haven't changed anything since then. I either find a specific question by searching or I go to the main SO page, and it certainly doesn't filter out questions completely. But I'm not surprised you're saying it works different since you also deny there's any problem with question quality. I guess me and the other saying there is an issue are just high. I frankly don't care anymore, you keep bailing out the titanic, its clear you're hell bent on this site being just AOK. Maybe b/c you dont' want to think of your time here as wasted.
 
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@Andy: "you also deny there's any problem with question quality." What you said is that it's OK to be rude to a person who asks a bad question. I said that it isn't OK. You claimed that we would have no rudeness problem if there was no question quality problem. I said that there would still be rudeness, even if it's not as much (and therefore, we would still need "Be Nice" or similar policies). I don't see how either of those is equivalent to denying that there are issues with question quality.
@Andy: "An eight year old blog post? I'm sure they haven't changed anything since then. I either find a specific question by searching or I go to the main SO page, and it certainly doesn't filter out questions completely." If they have changed, prove it. I provided evidence to support my position; provide evidence to support yours. Just log out and see how much the home page changes.
 
@NicolBolas does it seriously need to be debated anymore that SO has become increasingly hostile towards users attempting to close bad questions? It started with things like changing "closed" to "on hold" and revamping close reasons. Then came "Team DAG" and the welcoming drive, and focussed on all the wrong points. I wrote this answer a year ago, and I've not seen anything from the SO team that addresses any of the points I made there. Instead we got a "new user" indicator and a new code of conduct...
 
@l4mpi Changing "closed" to "on hold" seems more focused around trying to get people to edit their closed questions (even if I'm not sure that actually had any effect). The only instance I can think of of what could be seen as "direct" hostility towards close voters is removing "too localized", which was quite some time ago. Most recent things can at best be seen as indirect hostility - I haven't seen anyone say we should vote or close less to be more welcoming (if anything, I might've seen Stack Overflow staff / mods explicitly say we shouldn't, or even that we should do that more).
 
@l4mpi: "changing "closed" to "on hold"" The point of that change was to make it clear to users that their questions could still get reopened if they corrected the problems with them, that "closing" is not necessarily permanent. I fail to see how that is "hostile". And the revamped close reasons were primarily to get rid of often-misused and poorly specified close reasons. "Instead we got a "new user" indicator and a new code of conduct" What does that have to do with closing bad questions?
 
@NicolBolas it was in my perception the start of the drive to cater towards new users instead of helping the power users moderate the site. Which seems to be at least partly fueled by the idea that as long as everybody is nice to bad askers, everything will work out. Regarding the CoC and "new user" indicator, they were examples of things SO did do as opposed to a lot of things suggested by the community which they didn't do (see my linked answer). They again seem to stem from the (IMO misguided) idea that making SO more "welcoming" (whatever that means) should be the teams main focus.
 
3:20 PM
@l4mpi If it's simply about priorities, you can say the same about Teams and whatever else SO has been doing for the past few months / years / whatever. Making SO more welcoming isn't directly opposed to close voters.
... unless your argument is quality, as in making SO more welcoming decreases overall question quality, which is exactly what voting to close is trying to fight against. Can't really argue against that (not without data, at least).
 
3:43 PM
It's a bit of both. On one hand, shifting priorities to the welcoming project naturally removes resources from everything else. On the other, closing/downvoting are by definition not "welcoming", as is leaving critical comments. And besides all that, it's IMO fundamentally flawed to assume everybody should be welcomed. I'd argue it's wrong at least for the core goal of "let's create a high quality question repository", but that doesn't seem to be the focus of SE nowadays...
 
3:53 PM
@l4mpi "closing/downvoting are by definition not "welcoming"" - sure, but no-one's trying to say you should stop doing that (at least not yet, anyway). Pointing out how terrible a question is doesn't help get it improved (neither does politely asking for improvement, but I digress). Not telling off a user in the comments doesn't stop their question from getting closed and them getting banned eventually.
 
 
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7:49 PM
Anyone curious like me, and checking what the comments are :p
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