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10:00 AM
I don't get how people support him for being so aggressive
 
sorry, not getting into stuff like that right now
 
@towc twitter
 
@SomeGuy that was awesome to listen to. thanks!
 
@towc try to see it from their PoV?
 
we might have done something wrong, but his behaviour should absolutely not be condoned
 
10:01 AM
There are a lot of people who are angry at StackOverflow, it has a very frustrating onboarding process for some new users.
 
I don't know how to really explain this... there's a certain movement for more inclusivity in the tech community. Generally, I think this is a very good thing. This "movement" can draw odd ways to accomplish what they want
 
@towc why is his behavior relevant though?
@GNi33 I think inclusivity is great - it's twitter that creates problems :D
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum it's not very relevant regarding how we should improve, but the fact that people support him in what he did makes me angry
 
the discussion that was had, while I think as it was based on a news article about the tech community was fine, is not going to work for everyone.
 
and that he acts like he did nothing wrong
 
10:03 AM
I'd agree it is a weird first impression, but new people don't see that we have known each other for years, and sometimes things are getting discussed in exactly that manner
it's more a talk between friends than a talk in a tech chatroom
 
if I saw some evidence of him questioning his methods, I'd probably be ok with it, and keep focusing on how we acted
 
or what you'd expect in a tech chatroom
 
@towc in his mind he genuinely believes that drawing attention to it via twitter is helping to make tech more inclusive. And he's getting MASSIVE positive reinforcement from other twitter users.
 
Hi Ben, I've been avoiding wading in on this for a while, but I'd like to second the commendations for how you've been handling it, you're generally a very reasonable person and I think you're trying to be balanced. Personally, I don't want to cause drama, and I know that many regulars/ROs feel differently to me. I've kind of taken a step back from the room as of late, because of conversations related to these topics, and just generally not being super happy with the vibe in here at times.

This stuff is very, very hard. Whatever words you want to use for it, this room (and SO in general) c
4
 
@david I wouldnt want to get into their heads
 
10:04 AM
@BenjaminGruenbaum I've seen too many outrages on twitter that I just absolutely can't understand to really use this medium
 
Just as an aside, can room owners see a log of chat events? Would it be possible to see how long he was sitting in chat before the unfortunate discussion happened?
 
maybe it's just that me as a person, I'm not easily enraged by much
 
also, what are the messages that were deleted? He talks about them, but I don't remember major differences
 
I'm curious to know if he genuinely did join just as that discussion happened, or if he had been lurking for a while in wait
 
and sometimes, I think, some parts of inclusivity or SJ movement are plain hostile, in my opinion
 
10:06 AM
They believe in active censorship and gagging.. I have seen too much of that
 
@GNi33 Look at this answer as an example. He ended it by basically saying 'if you don't like it then leave' meta.stackoverflow.com/a/366859/423491
being inclusive works both ways
 
@phenomnomnominal I'd agree with most of what you said there
it is a little abstract to me though
 
omg there's the nicest smell of sausage out of the window
 
what is it, that we should do, in your opinion?
 
I don't remember the last time I had sausage
 
10:09 AM
@phenomnomnominal First of all - thank you. The fact you make this comment from such a defensive position scares me to be honest.
 
anyway, I replied with the stuff that I've been broiling inside for a while:
@real_ate @StackOverflow SO can be toxic, sure, but I do think you could have used much different methods to show it to others. What you did was toxic as well, please consider that, and possibly come back to chat with a mindset that welcomes the chat itself
 
@phenomnomnominal I'll read this over and think about it some. Do you have a strong position about respectfully discussing controversial topics? Do you think it should be mostly on-topic? Always on topic?
 
@GNi33 Create an environment where calling each other out is okay, starting from the ROs/regulars down. Not get called a "beta male", or "SJW" for doing so. Not discussing things that are likely to make people uncomfortable, namely things related to sex. Basically treat it as a professional forum, rather than an old boys club. Making an active effort to be more "inclusive".
 
feel free to disagree
 
@phenomnomnominal wait, did that name calling happen in here?
 
10:11 AM
@towc I don't think that helps one bit.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I think there is a big difference between "not on-topic" and "actively exclusionary".
 
@GNi33 yes
 
because I'd like to throw that rethoric out immediatly
 
I want to see him doubt himself, it's not only about SO's reputation, for me
 
@GNi33 yep, I've been called a beta here by a RO
 
10:11 AM
disagreeing is fine, we all have differing opinions and that is very important
 
@towc my 2c - that won't make him doubt himself, twitter is not a safe space for you right now - you are just getting yourself into more trouble.
 
but cut down this "internet speech", as it is directly used just to insult
it doesn't hold any real meaning, but the one of the weird internet circles that define those
 
well, he does want me to stand up for what I feel is right
 
@phenomnomnominal sadly, due to the timezones, we are usually on at different times
 
I do expect people to disagree, but I want it on record
 
10:13 AM
0
Q: Policing in the aftermath of The Blog Post of Welcomingness

Andras DeakI want to talk about taking action in our trying time of The Blog Post. Background I know the problems concerning minority groups are very real even on Stack Overflow. As privileged as can be I don't feel these on my own skin, so examples have to be explicitly pointed out to me. I'd love to h...

 
but trust me, I'll stand on your side if that ever happens again
 
@phenomnomnominal I agree, and I think it's not a very fine line - I'd like to think distant discussion of random things is fine - I don't want to prohibit "childish" things - I like the occasional discussion about shit or farts, I like being able to say "fuck".
 
@phenomnomnominal as to the part where we shouldn't discuss certain topics. I'm not so sure
"are likely to make people uncomfortable"
this is very vague, wouldn't you agree? where does it start, where does it stop?
 
HAMMERTIME!
 
oh, go away
 
10:15 AM
You can never not make people uncomfortable.

If all the regulars here like talking about eating meat, and a vegetarian comes in
 
I personally don't really like things like sex discussed in here, but I don't know if forbidding it will lead to any good
 
That could be very uncomfortable for the vegetarian
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum totally, and tbh I think that's actually the difference between "culture" and "exclusive". Swearing is an issue for some people, but it's about whether or not someone feels okay bringing that up.
 
respectful discussion is a very, very important point though
 
And you have to pick your battles right? Want more women in tech? There are some very clear steps you can take.
 
10:16 AM
@phenomnomnominal I saw 2 woman in CS my whole 5 years at university
I feel like the "steeps you can takee" starts a lot earlier than inclusivity
 
@Cereal agreed, but does that mean you don't have to do anything further down the line?
 
@phenomnomnominal I generally think we want to keep the silliness and the 2.9 and the !!slidepoop and all that
@Cereal I saw about 40%
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum totally, but we have to establish that line again, because I think it has slipped.
 
@phenomnomnominal that's the part that used to frustrate me and why I pinged you directly - because we've discussed this before and because we both take active actions to promote causes we care about.
 
@phenomnomnominal I mean sure, but you're just adjusting for thee 1% of woman who were already interested in tech. Probably different than the 99% who never got thee chancee to be intereesteed
 
10:18 AM
can someone explain the 2.9 thing? I must have missed that
 
@david it's <3
 
...
thanks... i guess
 
2.9 < 3 === true
 
@Cereal yes but if that 1% feel included, then they tell other people, and then it's 2%, and then 4%, and that's how it works.
if the 1% have a shit time, then they tell others that too.
 
@Cereal role models matter - but this isn't a conversation about making women more included in tech - it's a discussion of what Craig would want our room culture to optimally look like.
 
10:19 AM
@phenomnomnominal I don't know how much conversation happens between someone in a tech profession, and someone pre-university
You'd have to do some work to even make that connection
 
@Cereal that's seriously not the point right now
 
@Cereal what, people don't have kids? Nieces?
Friends?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum and also making sure that any 'adjustments' to the room culture don't alienate the regulars and make them all move to that meow place, or discord, or anywhere else
 
But that isn't the point
 
10:20 AM
Again, that's an individual scenario that it is so easy to get lost in.
 
I'm not arguing you shouldn't, just that it's a bigger problem than a website's culture
 
This is about structural exclusion and whether or not we're okay with that.
 
The thrust for inclusivity is also misguided at times, people don't realize that by being more open to people of different beliefs these people take up the place of all the "help vampires" we get here who come in asking poorly research questions
 
so far the 'make the exclusion explicit' gallery option is winning 11 votes to 8
 
Making a welcoming community is worthless if there's no one to welcome is my point I gueess
 
10:21 AM
The point is, people have called us out for being exclusionary. We, as a group, have two choices. 1) double down and say "no we're not, fuck you", or 2) listen, and try to change.
 
Gallery isn't for making the exclusion explicit - it's to chill things.
 
@Cereal "no one" is ridiculous though. We're one of the biggest rooms on one of the biggest tech help sites on the internet.
We have the capacity to seriously help people
 
@phenomnomnominal naturally, I'd opt for 2. otoh, have you seen some of the arguments?
 
or we say 'yes our culture is a little raw, but there are other places you can discus javascript if you want to do so more comfortably'
 
I'd say SO does help people
 
10:22 AM
this feels like "dongle-gate" somehow, which I strongly disagreed with
 
@phenomnomnominal I think we've already agreed on #2 in general, but it's very important to remember that "listen" is quite different from an immediate change.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Maybe i'm misunderstanding how the gallery function works. I thought it just made the room 'invite only'
 
@david that's #1, just worded a little nicer
 
@david anyone can request an invite and the contents is still public - it just lets us talk to you first and make sure you're not a jerk or troll
 
oops
 
10:24 AM
the Android room did this for as long as I can remember the room being there. Is it still?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Isn't that explicity exclusion? You exclude the people who don't pass the chat?
 
Yes, but it's a much smaller room overall
 
yeah, it is
 
@david it's certainly another barrier and it would exclude people but that's not the goal.
 
I'm not in favor of putting it into gallery
 
10:24 AM
I'm not sure I am either.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum yep, totally. And there are some clear options for the immediate action, and I personally think gallery is the wrong one.
We can immediately do better by actually considering the content we discuss, and simultaneously start actively listening.
 
@phenomnomnominal our goal isn't to help people though - it's to have interesting discussion that's often (but not always) about JavaScript. That worked out pretty well for us.
 
@Cereal too many 'e's :P
 
I for one will double down on "explicit" discussions much more. The ones that basically lead to trouble in here to begin with. We'll see how that goes
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum it has, and that can stay the same, but with a slight restriction on the parameters of "interesting".
 
10:26 AM
@BenjaminGruenbaum my goal has always been to help people, I try to do that in chat as much as possible. I also feel strongly that limiting topics of conversation will hurt the room by decreasing the numbers of regulars who can also offer help
 
Agreed, to me its talking about sex, and drugs etc. It's just unnecessary in this forum and actively discourages people from joining in.
 
@Ikari My keyboard is broken
Key chatter on the e and o
 
Having a body of users idling in here makes it a very good resource for 1 on 1 live help
 
From there, we just have to actually stick to our own rules, not have some second set of rules just cause someone is a RO, or we like them.
 
@phenomnomnominal how much does that really happen though?
 
10:27 AM
I have taken every chance to ask for criticism recently - so far no one reached out. I don't think our culture problem is as big as you portray (but it's certainly there).

I think we have a habit of two particular owners being on the defense and feeling attacked about this sort of stuff. I think a solution to people calling us SJW names (I was also called names several times!) is making those people feel more comfortable and less defensive and giving them more opportunities to show their friendly side which is pretty great.
At Node.js we failed at this by the way, also regretfully.
Our unofficial policy is basically "fuck the reddit crowd, they're poison"
 
@Cereal :P
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum That's weird, that's my personal policy too!
@Ikari It sucks. Going to bestbuy today to see if I can get it replaced
No receipt or box though. Hopes are low
 
We ban them, we don't accept their criticism, we don't engage with them constructively, we focus on building safe spaces for people who want to come and don't try to control or engage in the other spaces.
 
Ordered some o-rings for my blackwidow. Only reason I don't use that one is because it's so loud
Using it now though
 
I guess my response to the first point would be that we don't need to get much criticism to see that something is wrong. We can do a bit of introspection and see that stuff isn't great.

For the second, yes, we all need to be a little less defensive, and a little more considerate. I think that's a win win.
@BenjaminGruenbaum yeah I saw the periphery of some of that, it's just yuck all around.
 
10:30 AM
@Cereal I hate how those make keyboards feel :(
 
Both sides have to give a bit, and that's the hard part. No-one is good at that.
 
@david :( We'll find out
 
@phenomnomnominal It's a policy I've always been against, the reason people take inclusivity as "sjw" and mock it is because people pushing inclusivity often don't explain themselves very well.
 
@Cereal maybe if you got actual o-rings they'll be better... I got some kind of pad things
 
I ordered actual o-rings, so we'll see
 
10:31 AM
@Cereal which switches does it have?
 
I broke my hhkp keycaps, and they have no keycaps in stock
Otherwise I'd just fix that one
 
@phenomnomnominal I think it's a win-win too and I also think we need to find a more constructive way to receive said criticism while acknowledging that people can have respectful discussion about touchy subjects. I totally see why you would feel trapped in some scenarios and I can totally see why some former RO would speak up against it.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum and, honestly, some people are just plain toxic if they don't get exactly what they want
this isn't how a good community works either
 
For example if SomeKittens tweeted calling the room atmosphere "poison" it wouldn't surprise me, he has always been open about not liking our culture from a certain point - mitzy was always part of that which is what surprised me.
 
we all have to give and take
 
10:33 AM
@BenjaminGruenbaum it's really hard. I don't claim to have solutions, and I know I get fired up about it. All i can say is that I'm trying to do better.
 
we all should be
 
I think (well, hope) we all are.
 
And if people aren't then I think we owe it to our potential future members to deal with that firmly.
And on that note, I'm gonna go :)
Thanks for the chats
 
Cheers, thanks for the discussion
 
10:34 AM
@phenomnomnominal I agree. We shouldn't rush kicks (although I can see how it was an off-the-top thing to do right after we had a wave of trolls) and talk a little bit more. Where I see the problem, is that there is also hot-blooded users here, that will quickly dissipate the discussion (wether it was civil or not) into a little war.
 
I don't think we have any ambitions regarding potential future members or growing - it's very hard anyway :D
 
Handling that properly should be (imo) our prime concern.
 
@phenomnomnominal bye
 
oh snap, I missed the entire talk
Someone help me out, I did a fresh install on my laptop and am not sure if I have all things that I need:

- Winrar
- Node
- Docker
- VSCode
- WindowGrid
- Chrome (duh)
- Thunderbird
- .NET Core
 
Visual Studio
 
10:42 AM
im good with VSCode
also
-CMDer /w git
 
also, spotify, the native windows app
 
I thought the spotify app was electron
 
@KamilSolecki I try to avoid preloading 'all the things i need' and just install them on demand
makes my reformats feel cleaner
 
nah, its UWP
 
@KamilSolecki That's not a fresh install... :D
@KamilSolecki If it was fresh, Winrar would not be pre-installed.
 
10:43 AM
@david Ill be gone for a week with a likely bad to no internet connection.
@New_2_Code well, I installed these after
 
@KamilSolecki in that case disregard what i said :D
 
@KamilSolecki Oh carp sorry man! I read that as what can i remove here.
Monday, not enough coffee, coming off weekend. Take it how you will. :D
@KamilSolecki Don't see an after market editor on there? Something like ATOM if you don't have already.
Yeah otherwise most of the other stuff you need comes native with Windows. Will recommend VLC for viewing movies/music. (Not a fan of media player.)
 
@KamilSolecki ninite.com
I use it mostly for an overview of what I missed
 
@KamilSolecki WinRAR? That's a weird way to write 7-zip
 
ah thanks
 
10:48 AM
oh yeah, 7zip > WinRar
 
@OliverSalzburg I'm too used to winrar since childhood that I couldn't just change
 
Check this out
 
wooooooooooooooah
 
@KamilSolecki do it, you won't regret it
 
@OliverSalzburg wow.
 
10:50 AM
obligatory
 
goddamnit :P
 
@GNi33 Hah. I never bought WinZip. That'd be insane
 
I think in ye olde english they call this a "Ninja"
 
@GNi33 imgur.com/gallery/tphhIp1 - I don't know how to post pics
 
10:53 AM
@Ikari And it has 9gag logos
 
yes :(
 
@OliverSalzburg oh no the image is disabled :/
 
That's the second time I've seen this 'webp' image extension
Discord uses it for their avatars too
Interesting
 
webp is that google thing iirc
 
Course it's from google, so that'll be deprecated and shutdown within the next few years
 
11:01 AM
webm is a google project as well chromium.googlesource.com/webm/libvpx
 
I'm trying to set the external port in gitlab. The actual url you use to access the site is "thesite:4747". I found an answer on SO that said to use the `external_port` option, but that doesn't seem to have changed anything. All my links in the site are missing the port.

Does anyone know how I'm supposed to do this? Almost all of the answers I can find online are for changing the port gitlab listens on, not the external port
Changing the external_url to include the port just causes the site to become unresponsive
 
"A" && "B" = "B"
why ?
 
@Cereal You did reconfigure though, right?
 
The part referring to the external_url only related to determining 80/443 based on protocol prefix
 
11:13 AM
Why it's outputting "B"
 
@OliverSalzburg Yeah
That's dumb. It's called an external URL, that shouldn't affect the internal port
Okay, setting the listen port worked
 
Well yeah, you're supposed to use a reverse proxy with it. I don't think having a port in all rendered URLs is supported
 
It is, I just did it
the external_url is what shows up on the page
 
Oh okay
 
It just happens to also change the nginx port
 
11:22 AM
@Mathematics The && operator returns the first falsey operand, if none of the operands are falsey, it returns the last operand.
false && "whatever" // false
true && false && "whatever" // false
undefined && false // undefined
true && "whatever" // "whatever"
|| is the same only with the first truthy operand.
 
@KendallFrey I unpinned this since it was merged, feel free to repin
 
@MadaraUchiha thank you
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum no need
 
ermahgherd I just memorised the p block within 30 minutes \o/ /me high fives myself
 
kk
@MadaraUchiha I'm a little torn about liking this behavior :D
 
11:32 AM
@BenjaminGruenbaum It's a good behavior, it's one of the only things that's shared between Lisp and its spawn and C and its spawn.
You know there's something good there if those manage to agree on something.
 
Those two manage to agree on a lot of awful stuff :D
Plus there are plenty of languages that don't do this (like Java) or do this explicitly (like C#)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Java does this, only it only explicitly works for booleans
 
@MadaraUchiha Sure, and assembly does this - except it doesn't short circuit and it works with the AND command it and actually pushes the result to a register instead of returning it.
:D
 
12:06 PM
hello all, i am embedding a video on my website and on hover it autoplays. What if I try to implement the same logic on mobile phones as well. But there wont be any hover action there? any ideas
 
@AbhijitBorkakoty tap to play is fine for mobile
IMHO
 
@KendallFrey okay thanks. but is there a way to play the video when scrolling down??
 
Generally people don't like videos that autoplay.
 
@KendallFrey but i manager asked me to
 
12:11 PM
:(
 
@ken
@KendallFrey any ideas??
 
I'm not helping you implement shitty UX
 
inb4 meta post
 
@KendallFrey you mean facebook's implementation of autoplaying videos is a shitty idea?? LOL
 
I don't disagree with Kendall, even in that context.
 
12:14 PM
sort of, but even more so for articles
 
No, I agree with kendall too. I hate auto playing videos
News sites that make the video follow when you scroll down are the worst too
 
Especially because news articles and such have a habit of not stopping the video if you scroll past it
@Cereal Thank god for Opera's one-click mute amirite
 
Sites that implement autoplaying videos are sites that I debate on whether or not I actually need to visit, they're obnoxious, doubly so when I'm just trying to read something real quick and I get blasted by a distracting video.
Chrome's new Autoplay disable works pretty well.
 
@AbhijitBorkakoty let me know which site if you could.. Will add to block list
 
@SurajRao IDK... my manager my client wants it so in that case i will have to
 
12:17 PM
Are Fundamentals and Techniques a good start in writing production client apps in Angular?
 
Make sure to have your manager visit it about a dozen times after you implement it, I guarantee, they won't want it for long.
 
@overexchange yeah they are basics of angular
 
12:28 PM
@KamilSolecki @MadaraUchiha up for some Overwatch tonight? Gonna grind for some loot boxes before the event ends
 
@Ikari Sure
 
12:41 PM
@SurajRao Basics? I think, if we are good in html5/css/typescript, then those two topics coverage should be fine to write any production client app. Isn't it?
 
this poor chromebox, that gitlab update is wrecking its ram
 
@overexchange the links are for basics of angular framework
 
how much memory does it have?
 
Like 2GB
 
yeah those should cover it
 
12:44 PM
@hilli_micha there are use cases, Chrome doesn't block autoplay it blocks autoplay on new sites
Also, it only blocks autoplay if the video isn't muted
 
@Cereal ehh... I bet chrome doesn't even run with that much memory :B
 
@Ikari next weekend maybe, I'm out in the mountains
I mean this weekend
 
lol, np :P
have a nice trip o/
 
@Ikari It's hosting gitlab
Oh you mean chrome wouldn't run
More coffee
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Regarding your suggestion on making this room a gallery and trying to get users informed before coming in. Can you think of a way to make Cap's welcome a bit more in your face? It seems to me people are tone-deaf to that as of late.
 
12:59 PM
@hilli_micha You mean changing the message, or actually doing it differently?
 
I don't know exactly, but it just seems that's a really good place to start brain storming, we already have a tool, can it be improved so people actually give it a second of attention?
 

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