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13:13
@KarelG where? Where would you store it?
@MadaraUchiha please make sure that link is not in the google search results.
@MadaraUchiha works for me
@MadaraUchiha also works for me
Then again, time has passed
I think Karel mentioned a credit card number itself being in the cookie
not just a token
2 hours ago, by KarelG
there is a webshop in my country that used a simple cookie to store my account id and card number when checking out purchases. I stopped there and left the site before cleaning up the cookie.
@Luggage wait, what?
A credit card number :O?
That's super illegal, and they can easily be sued for it.
That's how I interpreted that statement.
There are legal aspects in web development, storing a CC number is a breach of the required compliance. When a company starts charging money it is required to sign a contract - which they're obviously breaching.
how does amazon handle it? Maybe it's in the ToS or something?
13:16
Storing a credit card in a plain cookie is basically taking a dump on PCI DSS
tokens sent out by the banks?
@BenjaminGruenbaum you are talking about IPC compliance?
Which you have to abide by, just tell on them @KarelG
@BenjaminGruenbaum well sure, but are they even stored anywhere in the case of big companies?
The Payment Card Industry Data Security Standard (PCI-DSS) is a proprietary information security standard for organizations that handle branded credit cards from the major card schemes. The PCI Standard is mandated by the card brands and administered by the Payment Card Industry Security Standards Council. The standard was created to increase controls around cardholder data to reduce credit card fraud. Validation of compliance is performed annually, either by an external Qualified Security Assessor QSA or by a firm specific Internal Security Assessor that creates a Report on Compliance for ...
@towc there is a super specific list of things you need to do in order to work with credit cards (just like for personal data) - if you do not work that way you're breaking the law. Best case scenario is that international vendors like Visa and PayPal stop working with you - worst case they freeze your money there and sue you.
Actually, worst case is that they publicly write about your practice and then sue you.
13:19
You would (might?) be surprised how many companies are violating this. 5 years ago one of the largest POS companies in the world (Aloha) had an incredible number of IPC violations and seemed to operate with impunity
or it comes to light after you have a data breach, then lots of people sue you
Wait no, worst case is that your users get scammed and you're held accountable, since you breached compliance your company is responsible for the breach. Visa can sue you for the lost money (or even the customers) when they get defrauded.
@Luggage yeah, the guidelines are there for a reason ^
@Vap0r what IPC standard? In the ~10 times I've worked with credit cards (not a lot by any scale) we worked with PCI DSS
so me, as an indipendent developer with no legal team (I guess an accountant :P) should do A LOT of research before doing anything involving payments without the use of a third party like paypal, right?
Or with companies that did it for us.
well, should generally just try to ever use credit cards
13:20
@towc Right, just use stripe or someone who takes care of that for you.
is it illegal to keep it in localStorage?
A credit card number? That's a good question.
Yea, there is no good reason to take on that liability yourself
Sometimes the developers can get in trouble. I forgot what it was, but developers on failed systems have been sued before
It is definitely a security concern, but not much more than a user even inputing their credit card stuff
I just want users to have a good experience. Tbf the best way to do that might just be paypal anyway
13:21
I think the best for the user is to just support multiple common third party payment services.
although users may not have paypal
Visa checkout, paypal, stripe
@BenjaminGruenbaum I haven't read it in a while so I can't cite the standard like I used to. I was never directly involved with credit cards professionally. But they forced "hello" to be the system default password, and didn't respect network boundaries in that they would allow the FOH and BOH servers and clients operate on the same network as the public guest network for the business. There were some other issues but I forgot them
I don't think PCI DSS actually covers storing in localStorage, IANAL but I'll ask one
!!urban IANAL
13:23
Which is what anyone should do before taking such a legal liability.
@towc IANAL I am not a lawyer
I've paid through visa checkout before. It's decent
@BenjaminGruenbaum thanks :)
I just ask for advice in youtube comments.
4
is it bad practice to load a localStorage variable into state? I think reading from localStorage is synchronous, right?
13:23
By the way I wonder if they store the last 3 digits?
I was just thinking that online stores may be the most profitable clients for me
That's illegal anyway.
@corvid right, it's fine if it's a little data.
but I honestly don't even know where will I find my first (contracting/consulting) client
and I need to make sure I can actually bring an online store to completion
done properly
@towc oh
you can do it if you believe, and also if you use Stripe
13:25
@Vap0r 😛 it was a funny joke, dw
@towc write lots of open source and get involved.
the correction was because I do already have clients, just no of that sort
diversify your portfolio? And bring them to completion always?
I think what I'll actually do is get a corporate job for 2 months or so, so at least I can ensure eating and renting without a loss
I dunno, I do kinda feel ready for a full-blown full-stack project :/
Why not keep the corporate job for 9-12 months so it doesn't look like shite on a resume, and ensure that you eat and rent for at least a year?
13:27
@Vap0r because then I can call the 2 months "consulting"
I'd also make it clear to the company that I wouldn't be staying for long
not if you're not consulting
so they'd just mainly ask me for general opinions and structure and various details, rather than get me doing parts for an actual project
that makes it consulting
s/staying for long/looking to get hired/
13:29
@Vap0r I'm a desireable asset ;)
And you'll answer with "vue"
@Luggage easy money
@towc where on your CV can I see that?
@Vap0r that CV is bad and I should probably just remove it
You're quite smart and I'd hire you, but not if you expected that you'd just be the wise consultant for 2 months and leave.
13:30
I'm planning to do a couple of full-stack projects before getting my graduation paper, and I'll put those on the website instead
@Luggage it's not like I don't see your point, but I think I can still find something
Don't get fooled into thinking that your ability is commensurate to your pay (especially when your CV doesn't reflect the ability). And don't think that 2 months in a job setting looks good.
if not, so be it
but it's worth trying
even just to have a young dev, for diversity and all. And it's not like I don't have some fame already
You want to skip the 'getting experience' part and get the jobs that people with experience can get.
2
ofc I need to be careful, I'm not trying to be arrogant
> young dev
> diversity
lol
13:32
I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, but you're already arrogant.
@Vap0r I am romanian and with somewhat of a speech impediment. That's good for the company
lol
back on the Romanian thing eh?
> impaired gypsy
That's romani
lol
13:33
He's trying to get affirmative actioned into a job
also, I studied in oxford. And got offers from the best universities in the UK
and in all honesty, it's ok if it's a long shot
"got offers".
@towc you went to OU?
I'm young. I got my whole life in front of me. Might be nice to throw the dice
@Vap0r not the uni
but it's still oxford
I adopted somewhat of oxford's mentality
I've never really met an employer who was overly impressed with the school the candidate attended, moreover the schools they looked at.
13:35
Oh. That's kind of like studying in a park in Boston and saying you went to MIT
I've breathed the air and connected with the people
> I've breathed the air
You trolling us you little shit?
lol
what a/c what the air coming from?
there is a different between throwing the dice and just walking and and putting all your money down on one game you just started playing.
@Vap0r no, I'm not done with highschool yet. I can't have gone to uni
13:36
wat
@towc well if you're going to bullshit your entire application why not just tell them you're the 7th best AI researcher analyst in the world and you command no less than $2 million yearly?
I don't even know what to say. You're all right (except for @Vap0r), and I barely have any counterarguments
other than my priorities might be different than what you may think they are
and my priorities are probably wrong anyway
@towc nah dude, I'm definitely wrong. Tell them you studied in oxford on your CV and when you say "I wasn't old enough to go to uni" let me know if they can keep their composure.
@Vap0r because I don't lie
Hör nicht auf @towc.
13:38
@Vap0r I'm not mentioning education on my cv
and I'll tell them I didn't go to uni
if they ask
It's not that I care about. Do not tell them you studied in Oxford.
@littlepootis Aber aber aber
@Vap0r I won't :P
dude, so if I did a workshop in UW campus I can say I attended UofW?
I studies butts at Stanford coffee shops.
I didn't know that..
13:39
@rlemon you'd be fibbing less than towc
@Luggage sensei?
ffs @Vap0r that is actually offensive
modddddsss
you keep on insulting me about something I didn't even say I'd do
when I was working SQA we had a local association of testers and met once a month to talk about testing methodologies at UofW
it was actually quite fun
I'm not insulting you, you're feeling insulted.
There's a difference @towc. I actually love you
13:40
@Vap0r er
I said "I studied in oxford" as a way to boost my confidence when writing. I think everyone here kind of knows my story regarding that
@littlepootis I thought we were checking our logic at the door
Sorry, I just barged in.
@rlemon which one is W?
University of Waterloo
13:41
WigWamWoozle
Waterloo?
Canada's better CS University
oh, TIL
anyway, truth is I don't know what I'm going to do
dye your hair rainbow colours
I feel like if I get a corporate job for more than a couple of months, I'll lose the will to do something as an independent contractor
13:43
Have you even graduated high school yet?
@towc why would you lose the will to do something independent?
because he thinks he's going to make good money?
frustration, burnout...
because he's deluded about corporate jobs, just like I was
@towc this is my first real corporate gig, and it's the most chill job I've had so far
my first real programming job I was all amped to make "real money" --- yea. they paid me according to my age and experience.
13:44
I was too until I got a fat steady paycheck then I became a corporate drone :)
Target is amazing, well, the team I'm on at Target is amazing
I plan to stay for a few years
my problem with corporate is not that it might be stressful. It could be, I hope not, but well
I'm in talks to go back to Xerox for that fat steady pay
enterprise work is less stressful for sure. more structure, more people responsible for things, more direction
less decisions
13:45
I actually have a ton of decisions, which is awesome, but I feel like there's virtually no stress or pressure
I almost miss startup work where I pissed blood for 3 days and drank beer the other 2
Start ups are more stressful because you have to bust your ass on a small team to earn that check
I absolutely do not miss my startup days
@ndugger yea, just not about things that could lose the company millions and therefore make you stress the fuck out about it
absolutely awful
13:46
Was is a catheter starup?
A corporate job is secure, steady, and more growth opportunity
and if you can, cool. I'm just generalizing
true
May as well have been
my problem is mainly that I don't like the idea of just half-working after waking up early and going to work every day, when on the other possibility is have a few lucrative gigs a month and spend the rest of the time doing other things I love
there's very little space for growth in corporate, I think
I don't know much about it, but it would make sense
13:47
You're wrong
@towc I'd listen to @Luggage because I'm pretty sure he's a professional contractor
and has been for a while.
with independent contracting/freelance, you set your own pace
if you are smart about it, the coroporate job gets you the savings AND experience to go out and do the contract/consulting work properly
I've had 2 contracting gigs, and you're on the bottom rung
@towc none of that is reality
13:48
yea, i've been independent for ~3 years
anyway, brb someone has a question here in person
@Luggage oh!
@towc have you looked up freelance income comparatively to corporate programming income. You might find a startling disparity and not in the way you seem to think.
@Luggage that's absolutely perfect. The corporate gigs (the right ones) challenge you to the point that you're actually ready and experienced enough to be an independent contractor
I'd love to "retire" into consulting
@towc that was AFTER working in the corporate world for 13+ years. I started knowing nothing and they paid me to learn on the job
13:49
The less experience you have, the more likely you'll be struggling to find a contract
consulting is the honey pot imo
don't you pay a big chunk of your humanity after going corporate?
little work, high payout
You can do it faster than I did, no doubt.
@Luggage oh, fair enough
13:49
consulting == freelancing?
@towc humanity? What sort of corps do you think we work for? ._.
consulting > freelancing?
@SterlingArcher made a very slight adjustment that fixed the gradient when you change the number of directions, though you'll always have 8, so it doesn't matter jsfiddle.net/3pcrayox/10
Both are true?
My work is saving the lives of sailors right now
13:49
@SterlingArcher even simply for the fact that you're always under someone else's orders
that you don't get to chose your pace
you don't get to pick your clients
!!s/sailors/seamen/
@ndugger My work is saving the lives of seamen right now (source)
@ndugger heh
My boss lives 3 states away and calls me once every 2 weeks to make sure I'm alive
you don't get a lot more money if you bust your ass out soon enough, it comes after a long time
13:50
@Vap0r in a very broad sense. freelancer is hired for skills, consultant is hired for advice.
@SterlingArcher oh right! Where are you working now?
:)
And as a new contractor, you'll be more or less desperate for work that you'll take almost any contract until you're experienced enough and financially stable to be picky
which is ofc based on skills, but they're not there to churn out code.
@SterlingArcher and they'll be contracting jobs all the way through
13:51
Don't get me wrong, contracting is the dream, but as a young dev, it's a risky move. You might not have work for 6 months at a time
which means that future clients may be more ok with the idea of me starting something from scratch
@SterlingArcher I actually like what I'm hearing and couldn't agree more with you and @Luggage. I did freelancing before I went corporate. The lessons I learned in corporate made me realize my shortcomings during freelance work. A few more years and I might be good enough at the planning aspect of this to go to consulting/freelance
and that I'll have more contracting connections
@towc how about this, take off your shoes, roll up your pantlegs and wade into the water a bit. see what we mean
then come back and we will have this conversation and you'll have experience to back up your feelings
@towc your client is the company -- picking clients is a pain in the ass. Also, you do get to set your own pace. The team determines completion dates, unless you get a shitty director, but as a team, you get to push back on unrealistic expectations
You have no idea what you're talking about
You're basically me 5 years ago
13:53
And me lol
eh, 6 years ago but still
@rlemon that's what I mean. I'm scared it might not work out, and I'll find out soon enough, but that doesn't mean I don't have opinions
just be normal
Also remember that I'm in charge of 2 contractors.. well.. one now. I didn't tell my higher ups to resign him because his "set pace" wasn't up to par. And I constantly called him to ask him to do things
that's why I said wade in, don't jump in without a floaty
And me the 90's
13:53
you'll never know anything unless you try
You're me 6 months ago. I've now quit programming.
ur so old lugg
So contractors have no authority, they're busy workers. Consulting on the other hand, they have the power you want
consulting gigs are cushy
13:54
talking to a room full of peers then arguing with their advice is anti-progress.
If you're not scared when entering a new chapter of your life, you're probably not pushing yourself hard enough
@SterlingArcher if everything goes well I'd do both
@towc is fake news
3
SAD
@towc hey, don't listen to @towc
3
13:54
@rlemon it is helping me a lot
Consultants are developers with tons of experience, they may call you one, but you'll just be a contractor
fair enough :/
I just send an invoice once/month. What I do is between me and my users.
But that's not typical
Don't get me wrong, you can make it as a contractor if you work hard and build your network, but you will need to work hard and impress
ok then, so my next step is finding a corporate job according to the regarded regulars of this room, right?
13:56
@towc seriously, go write a CV, don't lie, don't allude to things that are not true, and try to get some more regular contract work. figure you need to make $X thousand a month and work towards that goal. see how hard it is for a young inexperienced person to make a stable living that way
as an early contractor, expect to have your hours scrutinized.
And corporations aren't the devil, I love my company and what they stand for and I've learned so much here I went from a jr dev to lead UI dev in just over a year
for your own sanity, try it out. if it works great.. if it doesn't then go put on a tie and get some experience.
I wouldn't lie or allude to things that are not true
@towc Not really, we're just telling you to not make up fake shit and then complain about it. You can do whatever you want, just know that things are probably a lot better in a corporate gig than you imagine it to be.
13:57
at least the right corporate gig. If you are intelligent and can produce, then you can choose the right company.
Remember this as well: you're an engineer. Don't follow your feelings, follow logical reasoning.
@SterlingArcher I don't doubt they can be nice. It's people after all. It just feels like a loss anyway
only the plebs are stuck forever in a shitty one
you're still young enough and without financial responsibility, if you ever wanna try something risky like going full time freelance without experience, now is the time.
also true ^
13:57
but don't expect much (imo)
it's very hard in your position
I took big risks when I first started out, and it worked out for me in the long run
Here's some advice my uncle told me (in the corporate world): you're going to go through about 2 jobs before you find one you can settle at
I'd want to hug you all
then you'd get away saying I smell
so I won't do that
try showering?
13:58
Hey, my wallet is gone!
Your first job is going to be entry pay. A year or two later, you'll be making maybe 10% more if you're lucky. Then you change jobs, you have experience, you get a big raise (I got a 25% raise in my job change)
It wasn't me...
Millennials, am I right guys?
yeah, fuck us
And now I'm looking into new work, which will maybe yield me another 15-30% raise
13:59
Aren't you a millennial?
@SterlingArcher come to Target
> us
@Luggage yes
The big money comes from the job change. Promotions are typically 3-7%
we all suck
13:59
we don't bathe

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