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9:00 AM
a developer deliberately writes code
there is nothing deliberate or deterministic how these snippets of crap came to be
 
I feel your pain, but it's hard to draw that line.
 
is it?
 
Yes, if he changed a single line of code in that copy-pasted code, is he a programmer in your opinion?
 
no, a programmer deliberately writes code, he doens't randomly modify something until it appears to work
because then anyone would be a developer wouldn't they
anyone can probably understand that numberOfLinesToDraw = 5 can be modified to 6
and then see if it works
 
Sorry, I'm looking at the new Angular features and I'm drooling :P
 
9:05 AM
are you committed to knockout
 
No, I use Angular about as much, if not more. I also use Ember from time to time.
I think that if you're able to do conditional logic yourself you're pretty much a programmer though.
I really like Knockout though, it's very simple. It's just a data-binding facility where Angular is an actual framework.
 
if you are able to deliberately instruct the computer to do what you want acceptably reliably then you are developer
 
Do you do any frontend? (I do frontend now too, but still a lot less than I do backend)
 
well yes
but not single page apps or anything that would warrant angular/ko/ember etc
 
Do you use any MV* frameworks, or write all vanilla?
Ah
If it's not SPA no need to use tools that are for apps :)
 
9:09 AM
vanilla but with jQuery and object models
object models as in it's not a huge document ready function
:D
if you have looked at facebook source code it's similar what I mean
 
Isn't it like, really minified?
 
well you can use jsbeautifier and they use AMD
 
Yeah, they use AMD, I remember that
 
so the module names are strings so it's easy to see what is what
 
Yeah, they use r.js iirc
(The Require minifier)
 
9:13 AM
yo whatup @Esailija @BenjaminGruenbaum
 
just having no life and hanging out in javascript chat on a beautiful summer saturday
 
Drooling over new AngularJS features. Everything is promise based now, animations are a lot easier and pretty much built in (no reason to use jQuery at all now!).
I wonder when/if they'll build it into chrome ^_^
 
@Esailija lol
@BenjaminGruenbaum, i already sent this to @Esailija but i wanted to show you as well: codeproject.com/Articles/606274/jTypes-Under-the-Hood
 
oh god how do I disable chat ping sound
 
@redline I hate that site :P
 
9:15 AM
codeproject?
i don't like it but i don't hate it
 
@redline I did some googling and noticed you are marketing the library pretty hard
have there been any pickers
 
what do you mean by any pickers?
 
people that started to use the lbrary
maybe the expression is wrong
 
i have no idea
but if i'd have to guess based on my observations
i'm sure there are some
 
Marketing is important :) The question is - have you used the library on a big project yourself?
 
9:17 AM
of course
right now i'm trying to get this finished this weekend:
i already built it once back in october using jTypes 1, so now i'm redoing it real quick for jTypes 2
but it's basically a small forms library
 
Let's play a fun game. We write a simple client side app - I use whatever tools I want and you use jTypes and we'll see who gets the job done with more readable code :P
 
while i understand that that may work for you
i think you underestimate the number of developers who might like doing it this way
 
would it be more readable if they were encoded in the function name e.g. dispose: function abstract_final_private() {
 
Oh, I'm not dissing your library, I'm actually suggesting it.
 
i have thought of this alternative
methodName: $$(
shit
methodName: $$('modifiers spaced out', function(){}
 
9:20 AM
I'm saying, let's do something really basic both with jTypes and without and let developers choose.
 
so just have the $$() function act in two different ways for classes vs members
 
Like, something that reads a list of items from AJAX, then lets you edit it and push changes back.
 
or how about dispose: function private$abstract$final() {
or even using a white space letter that is a valid identifier letter :D
since unicode is supported
 
i want to stay away from putting the name in the function name itself
i'd rather just wrap the function in $$() as the second argument and use modifiers as the first
 
@Esailija What about _dispose:function(){throw "Please implement";}
 
9:21 AM
then just store it in a special variable
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I mean for his jTypes library
 
@Esailija :P
 
I myself use underscore of course
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum technically you wouldn't know to implement that unless you executed the function
@BenjaminGruenbaum imagine you have a BIG library
for example, let's say the forms library is 3000-5000 lines
so it's big, and you don't even want to look at it
 
does jshint have a way to see that underscore is respected
 
9:23 AM
@redline I wouldn't have abstracts anyway. Again, they solve a problem that practically doesn't exist in JS - treating abstract objects polymorphically.
 
like only this._xxx is valid
 
having jTypes might make it easier to extend that library's funcitonality
 
-- collapsed --
 
@Esailija What about that or self :P?
 
I never use those but I guess it could please more people with that
 
9:24 AM
nv,m
 
that or self just looks ugly to me when there is first class keyword
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum ?
brb
 
anyway it's not perfect since how do you detect "package private"
I need private, public and package private.. so far I just refer _ inside package or the "class" itself
 
@redline What about an app that reads the last so answers presents them, and lets you sort them by username or user reputation?
 
9:31 AM
blink is going to implement dom in JS \o
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum i think you are under the impression that i believe jTypes should be used for every application to solve every problem
 
@redline I'm just talking about applications, not web pages.
What do you think its problem domain is then?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum yeah so no more "dom is slow" after that
except unless the actual work is really slow
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum i'm not sure
 
9:32 AM
Dom isn't even slow now
@redline What would be a 'classical use case' for jTypes?
 
as in what problem specifically could it solve?
in terms of an application?
like something specific?
 
As in, what would be a use case for it.
What would be a JavaScript application that would benefit from jTypes.
 
hmm'
i'm not sure if there is anything "specific" that would benefit from it
because this is a general thing
 
I would say huge node.js apps but then the performance is not acceptable there
 
@Esailija You would say huge nodejs apps would benefit from typing?
 
9:34 AM
here is my thought process on the matter, and just hear me out here
if i want to code server-side, what are some of my options?
well, i could use node and do JS
 
php, rails, asp.net mvc, asp.net webforms, node, java
 
i could do ASP.NET and do C#
exactly
now, for my front-end, what are some of my options?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum ever seen a huge code base that was in dynamic typing?
 
JavaScript, TypeScript, CoffeeScript, GWT, Script#
 
@Esailija i never have besides like a google maps or something
 
9:36 AM
although those would not be written in node.js regardless
 
@Esailija Yes. You can make very clean code in dynamic typing. If that was your point I completely disagree.
 
why is there no huge code bases in dynamic typing then
 
Of course there are huge code bases in dynamic languages.
 
name one
 
so if i want to code server-side, i can go 100% dynamic or 100% static typed, right?
 
9:37 AM
One? Numpy
 
but on the front-end, i DO NOT HAVE THAT OPTION
JavaScript is my only REALISTIC language to use on the front
everything else is built on it and compiles into it
so WHY RESTRICT ME?
why not offer hard-typing just a little bit as an OPTIONAL feature for those who want it
have you ever used actionscript?
 
@Esailija wait, so you're telling me there are no good big codebases in Python, Ruby, Lua, JavaScript?
 
is numpy written in python? Seems like it's some extension to python language
@BenjaminGruenbaum I said huge
 
and remember, jTypes could build a very large codebase, our only restriction is the # of instantiations
 
@Esailija Huge, whatever.
What would you call huge? Are the facebook or youtube codebases huge in your opinion?
 
9:39 AM
no, those are consumer applications, how can they even be huge
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum have you ever used actionscript?
 
@redline Lots of times, why?
 
so you've used its type-hinting?
var varName:typeName = ...
function (varName:typeName ...
 
Enterprise software, also known as enterprise application software (EAS), is software used in organizations, such as in a business or government, as opposed to software used by individuals. Enterprise software is an integral part of a (computer based) Information System. Services provided by enterprise software are typically business-oriented tools such as online shopping and online payment processing, interactive product catalogue, automated billing systems, security, enterprise content management, IT service management, customer relationship management, enterprise resource planning,...
 
Yes, exactly like TypeScript implements
 
9:41 AM
yes, but why not have that in the language
you could add that and still not change anyone else's code
 
those are typically huge . e.g. tax management system for government
 
it is pure optional
and you don't think that would help SOME people?
 
(dunno what to call it officially: D)
 
@redline That's what TypeScript does.
 
but it's precompiled
and doesn't benefit from anything the JS compiler COULD do to make it WAY FASTER
it's completely ass backwards
 
9:43 AM
@Esailija python.org/about/success Just control+f the word enterprise there or whatever :P
 
we have to build all these things on top of a dynamic langauge which is built on top of a static language itself
so. fucking. retarded.
if the type-hinting was in JS, you could have compiler optimizations
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum note that enterprise doesn't always mean huge but that's the space where you find huge applications
not something like youtube or facebook
 
i'm just saying, there is no reason these things can't be in JS
they already added private and public, why not protected?
why not abstract?
 
@Esailija The Facebook code base or the Gmail codebase are probably bigger than most "enterprise" software like tax managing apps.
 
you don't HAVE TO USE IT
 
9:44 AM
how would you verify that
 
ECMA6 is just a halfass step there
 
even something like student admission has thousands of domain classes
 
i watched an hour long presentation of brendan's and he said something that really ticked me off: "you can check my bank statements, i didn't sell out"
and i thought to myself, wtf man, trying to applying to a wider group of programmers is not selling out
 
@Esailija I still don't see your point, why would a dynamically typed language be weaker there?
 
trying to add some of the good things from actionscript into javascript which were both using ECMA anyway would be a step in the RIGHT direction
 
9:47 AM
because it doesn't scale to thousands of mediocre developers
 
(i feel like i'm not talking to anyone)
 
@redline You are. I'm still listening
@Esailija Of course it does... why wouldn't it? That's a myth and a bad one imo.
Static typing does nothing important but provide better code completion for poor IDEs.
 
@Esailija <<<<<<<<< THIS
"because it doesn't scale to thousands of mediocre developers"
 
no you really need some discipline and bondage language in that situation
 
exactly
 
9:49 AM
No, you really don't. Python and JS scale as well as Java, I'd argue that even better.
 
if you work at a big company like i did, and worked with MANY developers all at the same time, and saw how they were typing javascript, you'd be saying the same things i am saying
 
You really don't need to use stuff like protected or abstract to write big programs
 
JS needs to be more like actionscript...BADLY
very very badly
 
AS3 is the biggest mistake Adobe/Macromedia has ever made. They took a really successful and nice language and killed it.
I say that having worked on projects with hundreds of thousands of lines of AS code.
You don't have to code like Java to scale.
 
i'm just saying the same thing as @Esailija ...i have seen large teams of javascript devs do some absolutely horrible shit because javascript was designed almost as if it was to be programmed by 1 person at all times
it's so ass backwards it's not even funny
 
9:51 AM
above average developers are liberated
 
and there is absolutely NO reason BOTH can't co-exist
 
whereas discipline and bondage languages limit them
 
I find "I've seen bad developers do some absolutely horrible shit" an extremely poor argument.
 
i can program JS just fine and I still would want to see these things in KS
 
but things work differently at huge scale
 
9:52 AM
i didn't say BAD developers
 
No, they really don't. There are huge python projects that do just fine.
 
"i have seen large teams of javascript devs do some absolutely horrible shit"
 
That would make them bad developers.
 
but you will invariably have bad developers with huge teams
 
no
 
9:52 AM
You can write well structured JS code without using libraries.
 
in fact, they weren't half bad, and in C# they got shit done like pros
but JS was a fucking mess...a total absolute mess
 
@Esailija So enforce coding standards. Like most good companies do.
 
most don't give a shit
and don't take the time to do that
 
^
 
the tools have to provide the structure
 
9:53 AM
@redline Most C# developers I know are extremely poor JS developers. You see this in the Microsoft tutorials, their seminars and such. They raise their JS developers poorly and have done so for quite some time.
 
and why is that?
maybe because all their devs have a different mindset
 
Because Microsoft did an extremely poor job at it.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum is it a coincidence knockout is done by a microsoft developer afaik? :D
that's what I recall anyway.. microsoft something
 
@Esailija No, Knockout lets you write JS code with data-binding that's extremely similar to the way you code WPF
 
ignore shitty devs for a second then
take myself for example
a perfectly competent JS programmer
 
9:55 AM
Shitty devs will produce horrible C# code too.
 
yet i still would like to see this in the language
i want the option, that is all
and the idiots at mozilla think that offer the options i want is selling out
 
but the effect of that is mitigated in languages like C# and Java, especially in Java
 
The problem is a lot of developers don't take (or at least that used to be the situation) JS seriously because it's their second language. They do C# but use JS from time to time. That makes horrible code.
 
whereas in JS it's amplified
 
@redline I don't like Eich ever since he donated 1000$ to anti gay-marriage groups :P
 
9:56 AM
i think you are putting too much emphasis on the devs though
just think about FEATURES
think about typescript having to implement static features on top of a dynamic language
think of all the missed optimizations
how can you sleep at night with that going on?
it makes my blood BOIL
 
@Esailija No, it's not. Having worked with huge Java codebases (Like GATE NLP) too, they are not even one bit more understandable than JS code. It's all 'it's happening someplace else', it provides for some of the least understandable code ever.
 
i wish i could meet eich so i could punch him in the face
 
@redline I think JS is an amazing language though.
 
it is
it's a good start
i like functions being first class objects, ect.
but here's the deal, C# is becoming more and more dynamic
 
@redline The runtime engine should be clever enough to figure it on its own. Why should I have to bother with all that?
 
9:58 AM
i can use a function as a first class object in C# now
 
@redline C# is becoming a scripting language :) Roslyn looks amazing.
 
so why shouldn't JS do what C# is doing, adopting everything that is useful?
did putting dynamics in C# kill it?
 
You can use functions as first class objects in C# for a while. I really like C#, I think it does a lot of things right.
 
NO...so why would putting statics in JS not work?
 
@redline dynamic in C# is painfully slow, and visual studio provides no autocomplete feature or warnings for it :P
 
9:59 AM
yes but
don't be so hard on it...it is brand new
anonymous objects haven't been around for long
 

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