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8:00 PM
@RUJordan It's setting a string to true
 
@RUJordan it's in PHP
 
Ah, didn't notice the quotes!
 
@AbhishekHingnikar you are a strange boy
 
@BartekBanachewicz there's nothing wrong with PHP in my opinion.
 
My intro to CS teacher said he'd throw me out of the program if he ever caught me doing that.
 
8:00 PM
I like it better than Java
 
@RUJordan Please read that
 
$_privateVariableNotTrue = 'FALSE';
 
@BartekBanachewicz Are you of the opinion that anyone who thinks PHP has good parts has not read that rant?
Or should everyone's opinion of things be defined by snippy blog posts?
 
@SomeKittens if he did he would tell me at this point so...
 
I've read that rant. I hate PHP and understand there is a whole fuckload wrong with it. I still code in PHP because I know it and because there is an industry supporting it.
 
8:02 PM
#DEFINE true false
 
@SomeKittens also the blog says that even if it has good points, it doesn't matter
Maybe you haven't read it well enough.
 
blacklisting php is stupid
just like blacklisting jQuery
use your tools properly
 
jQuery is actually useful
 
@BartekBanachewicz -shrug- It's a very good web language to learn for intro developers
 
so is PHP
 
8:03 PM
@rlemon i was abusing the chat system
 
@RUJordan to teach them worst practices possible and inconsistent APIs and legacy cruft from Java?
 
as a quick image uploader lol
ain't got nothing on iPhone :P
 
I still use it, I'm still learning it. Haven't had a problem with it yet
 
@rlemon I'd disagree.
 
Disclaimer: if it isn't Haskell or c++ Bartek thinks it is a bad language.
 
8:04 PM
@RUJordan then you haven't used it enough
@rlemon C++ is a bad language
Lua is a good language
there.
 
@RUJordan It'll hurt you later. Right now you're writing and learning a lot but not debugging
 
@BartekBanachewicz You're the type of person who won't shut up about how everything would be better in Clojure, aren't you.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I came into PHP with a Java perspective, but pray tell what are these horrible practices?
And no shit I haven't used it enough lol I'm a junior developer :P
 
@RUJordan have you read the article I've sent you?
 
I'm reading it, I've read several like it.
 
8:05 PM
That one is rather comprehensive
 
PHP is like handing a gun to Dick Cheney. Sure, he might not shoot you...
 
It seems to go on and on and yes PHP badness goes on and on
 
There are plenty of situations where it's the best tool for the job though.
 
@SomeKittens no if you have any other reasonable choice
if you have no choice there's nothing to discuss
anyway I was supposed not to rant on PHP anymore so I'll just shut up now.
but I'm not going to touch, allow, read, write, say it's ok, whatever about that language ever in my life
 
Ah, I see you've worked in a corporate environment.
 
8:06 PM
@SomeKittens I've worked both as a freelancer and in corporate.
 
I'm from SV where 'getting things done' is more important than 'long winded arguments in meetings'
 
You do what you gotta do Bro Montana. PHP is still probably the most popular server sided web language (last I heard, 50% of the web uses it?)
 
@SomeKittens You know that not every corporation is the same huh?
 
what is the worst is working in a enterprise jig where they make you code in their proprietary language or their hacked together subset of another language.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Ha, look at the guy who says 'there's no good place for PHP' complain about generalization.
 
8:08 PM
@RUJordan and it doesn't tell shit about quality of it.
@SomeKittens because there's literally no place for PHP because every alternative is better
 
So what's the "best" web language then?
 
be it RoR, Python, Node, whatever really
@RUJordan depends on what you like
depends on the project
it's never PHP
 
Most freedom PHP ----------------------------Django/Node ------------------------------------ RoR Most language control
RoR is overhyped.
 
what the hell is "freedom"
 
@BartekBanachewicz COMMIE
 
8:09 PM
It's never php.
 
again, blacklisting something in 99.99% of the cases is wrong. saying don't ever use X should raise flags.
 
@rlemon oh yes it should
 
So Cold-fucking-fusion is better than PHP?
SIKE
 
"Hey, I don't want to use MVC" PHP/Django/Node all say "Ok, what do you want?" RoR says "NO YOU HAVE TO DO IT MY WAY"
 
@RUJordan it really depends on what you're trying to make.
 
8:10 PM
@RUJordan isn't that PHP dialect or something
 
What?
 
@SomeKittens Django is an MV* for Python you know.
 
@SomeKittens Why are you mixing languages and frameworks?
 
@BartekBanachewicz so you agree it should raise flags, then why are you saying PHP shouldn't be used (ever) ?
 
@rlemon it should raise flags on how bad PHP is.
 
8:11 PM
lol.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Fair enough, I've never used it myself.
 
PHP really isn't all that bad. The problem is the reason to use it is to reuse a lot of existing code and that code is horrible.
 
@RUJordan wikipedia suggests CF is a platform for Java
 
yea i'm going back to work. This is one troll conversation I don't care to be part of.
 
Circular logic is the best because circular logic is the best.
 
8:11 PM
That's the main reason I really dislike PHP.
 
Coldfusion is a web language built upon Java. It uses an HTML-like structure to do simple things.
 
@NiamhMcKenna Welcome to the JavaScript chat! Please review the room pseudo-rules. Please don't ask if you can ask or if anyone's around; just ask your question, and if anyone's free and interested they'll help. now go get 19 more rep
 
@SomeKittens if you want detailed arguments read the blog post.
 
:)
 
as I said, it's rather comprehensive
 
8:12 PM
@BartekBanachewicz "PHP is a fractal of bad design" is a pretty stupid post.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum because?
 
wohoooo Im done with govie work!
6
I no longer have access to the alien files
 
congrats
 
@BartekBanachewicz I have, several times. You act like people can't have an opinion other than yours.
 
I think the guy lists a fair portion of what's wrong
 
8:13 PM
ty
 
@rlemon I know, right? Bloody insane
 
@SomeKittens wait so you've read that and what? No conclusions?
 
@Loktar did you leave any easter eggs for us?
 
@Loktar wait what :)?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum But what about the bugs, inconsistent api, "let's not throw errors and try to interpret everything somehow"
 
8:13 PM
haha no I wish @rlemon
 
@Loktar Ha, now you can't keep up with my seekret plans! (Congrats!)
 
@Loktar wait.... YOU WERE THE ONE FUCKING WITH HEALTHCARE.GOV?!?!?!
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum got a job offer :) and accepted it
 
I know it was you...
 
@BartekBanachewicz it complains about all the wrong stuff.
@Loktar Awesome! :)
 
8:13 PM
@rlemon Hahahaha, that'd be so awesome
 
@rlemon yeah it was just me on healtcare.gov
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum It complains about a lot of stuff. Pretty much everything he mentions are actual things that make language unusable. What should he complain about instead?
 
@SomeKittens lol yeah now they are going to start watching me! O.o
 
> it started with prostate advice... ended with SQL Injections.
 
before I was an inside man.. now Im the one who got away :P
 
8:14 PM
@Loktar so when you moving :P
 
@copy By saying it's not that bad I'm not saying I like it. There are fairly good APIs for a lot of things and good code doesn't have "let's not throw errors" in it, (it's a flag or something).
 
@rlemon eh idk, going to see how this job pans out. It sounds pretty awesome so Im not sure
 
you can always move your family and game collection to my place.
 
@Benjamin Seriously, if you are telling me you think JS is OK, that's kinda weird. When you then say that you've actually coded in Haskell, that raises my eyebrow. But if you say now that PHP is anything less than terrible, I am seriously starting to wonder what the fuck.
 
I'll totes let you stay.
 
8:15 PM
@BartekBanachewicz the way loading works with classes. The fact that most of the code is written using stuff like mod_php. The fact it abstracts the HTTP protocol away. How easy it is to get wrong. All the bad defaults.
 
haha I love how you say family and game collection
Good guy @rlemon :)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Write to him and add that to the list.
 
ohh shit.... you noticed that eh?
 
I figure the post could've well been 3x that long.
 
@BartekBanachewicz why? it's a pointless rant.
 
8:16 PM
hey man most would just say game collection
 
@Loktar really happy for you :)
 
thats how I know you're a true friend
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum It's not pointless. It accumulates a lot of bad stuff in a convenient place.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum thanks man I've been wanting to get out of there for a while
 
So I don't have to look for them all over the web
 
8:16 PM
the SO chat definitely helped with it all
I traced it back to @mikedidthis
 
Also it's categorized and stuff.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Have you actually used PHP for anything? What are the things that bothered you about it?
 
You should try to convince the PHP room they shouldn't use PHP
 
@Loktar well I would obviously let your bring your wife and kids. I don't want you cuddling me at night when it gets cold.
2
 
(Unlike JS, I don't like PHP, I wouldn't use it myself)
 
8:17 PM
@RUJordan I am not going to enter that room ever again.
 
he let me know about the jsbin compo, which I made the entry for that got noticed by nebraskajs which landed me the interview at my new job :P
 
@RUJordan the PHP room is actually filled with the people who are making PHP :P
 
@Loktar eh?
 
you told me about the jsbin compo
not sure if you remember
 
@mikedidthis tl;dr you are indirectly responsible for his new job
 
8:17 PM
but thats how I landed this job
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Dynamic typing, Terrible SQL interface, code mixed with HTML, non-intuitive API
I think those the most.
 
Well, regardless.. I rather enjoy PHP. If it every fucks me over so hard that I never use it again, I'll be lookin for ya big guy.
 
@Loktar oh sweet and congratulations again!
 
thanks :)
 
If 'Dynamic typing' is #1 on your hate list, what are you doing in the JS room?
6
 
8:18 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Terrible SQL interface? Really? You know you have pretty good adapters today not to mention ORMs like Doctrine if you fancy those.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I've not used them so I can't really tell.
 
PDO is not bad at all
 
@BartekBanachewicz code mixed with HTML is a dumb default, but no one does that anymore. You use a front controller and you do proper SoC.
 
You asked what annoyed me personally when using it.
So I told you.
@BenjaminGruenbaum yeah, ask RUJordan here if he knows about that.
 
!!youtube Guilt by Nero
(related)
 
8:19 PM
 
@SomeKittens I happen to be writing a web app now.
 
@BartekBanachewicz non-intuitive API I disagree with, it's certainly a bad API with a lot of stupid things. I wouldn't call it non-intuitive. It's definitely very bloated, faily bad and overly complicated but it's a lot simpler than actually understanding what HTTP is.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I didn't say it's not simple. I said it was not intuitive. Nothing made sense.
naming is terrible
 
@BartekBanachewicz that's a good point. While I do that, let's ask him if he knows how HTTP works, how networks work, how SQL gets actually run on the server and what SoC means ^^
@BartekBanachewicz oh yeah for sure, that's not a strong argument though.
I think that you can make PHP a lot more sane if it didn't come with all the wrong defaults.
 
Wonderful, now I feel like a freaking dumbass.
 
8:20 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum not consistent == bad
 
+dynamic typing I like, but theirs is kind of broken :P
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum you don't need those when using any PHP alternative so that's a moot point
 
@RUJordan dude, you are fine. some developers just tend to be very condescending when they speak.
 
@BartekBanachewicz yeah, it's not - it suffers from a lot of legacy code. You just don't use APIs you dislike.
 
You can ask me if I don't know a lot of things all you want, but what I do not know doesn't mean anything.
 
8:22 PM
@BartekBanachewicz you kind of do. If you don't know how any of those work you'll have a hard time pretty much anywhere, PHP helps with that. To be honest I think "being easy to start with at the expense of being bad" is a poor argument but I'll still make it :P
 
I like how you're picking on @RUJordan because you can't actually prove your points with logic.
 
@rlemon thanks man
 
I dislike PHP, but the amount of misinformation about it is amazing. People just hear "PHP is bad" and jump on the bandwagon.
 
@RUJordan I've just used you as an example.
 
You have to actually use PHP and suffer to get to say that :P
For example, I had to use PHP a few weeks ago and wanted to kill myself.
 
8:23 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum ha. It isn't that evil. People just misuse it.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum You should expect me to have some backing on what I'm saying.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum PHP is bad :my other screen has php on it atm:
 
@qwertynl no, it actually is even worse.
 
I would say as a junior developer, I'm quite the BAD example ;)
 
@BartekBanachewicz I wasn't talking about you.
 
8:23 PM
@RUJordan I needed a junior to show much people are misusing it.
 
@BartekBanachewicz eh I use it. You get used to it.
 
Sorry if that was unclear.
 
@Loktar Congrats!
 
jQuery is overly abused every fucking day. it is horribly misunderstood and the API is terrible
 
8:24 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum oh well, I agree that people do scream a lot of things
but then again, it goes both ways
 
@rlemon you know damn well what I'm going to quote right now.
 
hey! I'm not saying Don't Use JQuery
 
@rlemon you get the resig quote.
 
I'm just pointing out the similarities to how piss poor of a rap it gets because of how developers use it
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum It's way worse if you actually know how to do things properly
 
8:24 PM
I think my scripts would surprise you. I use a clean object oriented or function approach.
 
that's why newbies aren't struck by it so much
 
and or*
 
@BartekBanachewicz it really is. Especially since you wouldn't go to PHP in that case unless you had to.
@RUJordan show me.
 
@RUJordan I'm not easily surprised by how good code is. Opposite, however... yeah that might work
@BenjaminGruenbaum that's why I think it's so important to point newbies to alternatives
 
@BartekBanachewicz go watch the PHP room, you some smart people there who know more about OOP than pretty much anyone else in the chat ^^
 
8:26 PM
You don't even have to say PHP sucks at that point
@BenjaminGruenbaum please not ever again
 
@BartekBanachewicz Oh yeah fully agree - @RUJordan don't start with PHP.
@BartekBanachewicz Here's one example blog.ircmaxell.com , that's a recent good one blog.ircmaxell.com/2013/09/beyond-design-patterns.html
 
ircmaxell is brilliant.
I love his videos... so well done
 
I can't show my PHP, it's on a game server. But I designed my Javascript relatively the same in this example. github.com/RUJodan/js-vampire/blob/master/vampire.js
@BenjaminGruenbaum PHP was my first language lol then HTML, then Java for school, and back to web languages.
 
@RUJordan innerHTML === your code is bad. BAAADDDD, also I saw some JS in there. BAAADDDDDDDD
 
I wouldn't call him brilliant but he's certainly recognized and he knows his shit.
 
8:28 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum That's actually pretty good
 
The whole file is js lol whut
 
@RUJordan you show me clean code by - linking me to something that starts with a huge list of globals?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum well considering the people I deal with: he is brilliant :P so are most of you :P
 
=/
 
8:28 PM
@RUJordan we kinda expected PHP code you know
 
> I can't show my PHP, it's on a game server.
 
@BartekBanachewicz read it. It is. These are the people in the PHP room who discuss getting things done like changing the way the cryptography API works in PHP (which he did) while we discuss stupid things like static/dynamic typing :P
@RUJordan Sorry but that JavaScript code has some blunt mistakes.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum we need to focus our time on discussing important things, like TABS vs SPACES
 
@Incognito thanks man :)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Eh, prolly there are. Singles. Most of those people are just FUBAR though.
 
8:30 PM
@rlemon I asked for better catch and Brendan Eich told me it's not gonna happen :(
 
or talking about how stupid comma first is! grumble grumble Hipsters! grumble
 
@rlemon I liked how he didn't even mention singleton on his list of DPs
 
I would assume it's flawed. I've never designed a game before.
Advice would be lovely btw
 
@RUJordan practice makes perfect :) And one needs a lot of it to improve in programming
@RUJordan My advice would be, even if you think that PHP is okay now, to try and use some alternatives; just to have some comparison.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm sorry but that is a dick comment if i ever read one.
 
8:32 PM
@RUJordan read about what separation of concerns means and how it applies for you. Your dom and logic are all mixed. Also try to make your code more sensible. You don't have many objects :P
 
unless you meant 'all programmers need lots of practise'
 
@rlemon oh that wasn't meant to be targetted at @RUJordan
@rlemon exactly that
 
but considering everyone has been targeting him. it isn't transparent that that wasn't a digg on him
 
I can't seem to figure out how to dynamically increment the form`name` Attribute on my dynamic form so that I can create as many records as I need.
 
(feels the need to defend @RUJordan now)
I got your back bro!
 
8:32 PM
@rlemon I just phrased it badly
 
@benlevywebdesign that sounds horrible. Have references to them
 
@BartekBanachewicz fair enough.
 
@BartekBanachewicz see, classic mistake ^*2
 
I code everyday, I just need a wider variety of projects. That's why I started making this game. To better architect my code, and improve anything else I need
@rlemon you don't have to, but I appreciate it. :)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum what, the form guy?
 
8:33 PM
@RUJordan try reading source codes of open source projects and seeing how stuff gets done there.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum what do you mean
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum s/objects/monads/ runs away
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, it's one classic example.
@BartekBanachewicz monads are a buzzword when used like that.
 
i read it first as gonads, was confused.
 
@benlevywebdesign Why are you giving them sequential names?
 
8:34 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum ok
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Remember that I wouldn't call myself a web developer, so I might well be making the same mistake :)
I just learned what box-sizing does and that's the highlight of my web performance
you are observing a new responsive design prodigy being born
 
box-sizing is pretty effing awesome.
 
@BartekBanachewicz It's not even about web, it's about GUI and even more about separation of concerns.
 
!!afk regex
 
@RUJordan Nobody cares.
 
8:35 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum oh then it's rather obvious indeed.
 
@BartekBanachewicz People having "string"+i and then querying their own view logic.
 
I should remember about it, I'm making UI for Harvest now
 
@Loktar so you at home?
 
yeah
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Well my form has a button to dynamically add more fields and so I need a way to give each new field's name attribute an incremented number so I can create a new record with the data
 
8:36 PM
gotta pick up the kids in a few
dont start the new job until dec 2nd
so I have a few days off now
 
nice
little time off
 
my other job let me go early
 
"let you go early" ???
 
I gave the 2 weeks but they were laying everyone off anyway
 
your terms or theirs
 
8:36 PM
so I was like sweet
mine
they lost the contract
so I could only work until Tuesday anyway
unless I took the new companies offer at like 10k less..
this was like perfect timing for a new job
 
@Loktar you deserved a better job anyway.
@benlevywebdesign use an array
 
Gosh, I was a bit grumpy last night
 
@phenomnomnominal naaa :P
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum haha was a bit of a shitty day. I should probably apologise to @BartekBanachewicz. (Sorry)
 
@phenomnomnominal what happened?
 
8:39 PM
@phenomnomnominal Oh don't worry, no hard feelings. :)
 
Ex-girlfriend stuff.
@BartekBanachewicz still so excuse for telling you to go die.
 
:13086199 no offense but I don't think you consisted of his shitty day :P
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum ok
 
@phenomnomnominal How ex is she?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum figured that too late
 
8:40 PM
8 months ex, we were together 6 years.
 
Yeah, good times.
 
I hate real life drama... it's like internet drama but with no good button to shut it off
 
Also no-one to suspend you from talking when you say dumb shit haha
Wouldn't that be great? I wish every interaction I had with her could go through some sort of peer review process
 
I wish I could voluntarily choose whether to hear or not hear
 
user1596138
8:42 PM
Longest day ever
 
@nderscore Wouldn't that lead to echo chambers?
 
@phenomnomnominal I just cut people loose when the drama meter is too high, or at least try to
 
@phenomnomnominal You said Craig was "An absolute tosspot" but provided no citation here. I'm afraied we can't publish that.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum we have a cat & a god son together, plus she moved to France to do her Masters, so she's about as cut out as you can get - without actually being cut out
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I have a wisky button at home.
when I press it I get up and pour myself a whiskey
problem solved.
 
8:44 PM
Jesus I wish I drank.
 
@phenomnomnominal so what happened?
 
@rlemon Speaking of booze, what are you and @RyanKinal doing Dec 8-13?
 
partying with you?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum don't really want to go in to it. Just drama.
I'm just going to have fun with promises and not think about it.
 
8:44 PM
@phenomnomnominal mmk, hope all is well today.
go have fun with promises :)
 
user1596138
@dystroy What is "Miaou"?
 
meow in french
2
 
@phenomnomnominal also, today Brendan Eich told me that if I think we'll have better catch clauses anytime soon I'm delusional ^^ (only in a nice way)
 
@phenomnomnominal when life gets you down just think about Loktars steam photo
 
@rlemon I'll be in Rochester, first round's on me.
 
8:45 PM
user image
2
@SomeKittens hrm. well I would need a place to crash if I did come. wouldn't be driving home same night ofc.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum haha damn, we need them.
 
but i'm sure we can work something out
 
var x = Math.floor(Math.random()*18);
Highest number would be 17, correct?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum ahh, so it's a browser vendor issue
 
8:50 PM
@rlemon I'll see what I can arrange
 
@phenomnomnominal tbh I just want it in v8 :P
 
Yeah, node needs it
 
I should build harvest into a GH page finally
 
@Schoening yeah
 
btw @Benjamin I was trying to use Grunt, but after concluding tsc file.ts is all I need, I kinda lost interest
 
8:50 PM
@phenomnomnominal exactly
 
I had to fiddle with npm a bit too much to make that work and it turned me off a bit.
 
@BartekBanachewicz yeah, I don't always use it either
Usually I don't like Uncle Bob - but this is a well made point youtube.com/watch?v=mslMLp5bQD0#t=845
 
@SomeKittens I have no issues getting a hotel for the night or something, but I would prefer not to have to
 
@SomeKittens I have a gig on the 13th and 14th... but besides that, I'm good.
I think
 
Cool, I'll see what's up
 
8:54 PM
ohh and the 9th i'm not avail.
sorry, gf's bday
however that could be a nice 'present'
Hey baby! happy birthday! lets go drinking with my nerd friends!
I promise dancing and some kittens!
 
@rlemon <(^-^)> I cannot draw cats in ascii...
 
(When I say good, I mean in the way he speaks)
 
That is more like a penguin.
 
ooo U did it already. albiet a different way @SomeKittens
 
8:59 PM
@rlemon Her name was Holly, right?
I knew I got it wrong when I said Molly!
 
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             >\:.  "  .:/<    ) .|
              /'-._^_.-'\    /.:/
             /::.     .::\  /' /
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         |:. | ':.   .:' | .:|
         | ` |:.;     ;.:| ` |
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     jgs   /'|  |\   /|  |`\
 

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