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12:00 AM
What are you trying to do?
 
and btw... ff4 and chrome (past few versions) can handle 3d smoothly
ie is the bane of my existance
 
@VulgarBinary They can handle 3d but it's young. What your seeing are optimised tech demos made by proffesionals.
I'm hoping that hobbyist programmers can use my library to make games on the browser. These people can't optimise for webgl through an abstraction
 
I've done a few myself :-D
 
And do they run at 60 fps? Link. Show me something working at 60fps on my laptop and i'll believe you
 
user1385191
@Raynos You're reminding me of all the <canvas> demos I see. The optimized ones run ok, but the intensive "games" run poorly outside of Chrome.
 
12:02 AM
large portion of my career has been in game development, so... it's been a passion off and on
 
@MattMcDonald yep. I'm going to try hard to make them smooth. If canvas is hard imagine making webgl efficient
 
user1385191
RAM is a huge issue as well.
 
@VulgarBinary Am I actually wrong in assuming canvas is more efficient then webgl?
 
depending on browser
 
@VulgarBinary I'll get a tech demo up and running in a month or so
 
12:02 AM
hit me up when you get it
aqua@nightowlcoders.com
chrome has gone back and forth between the two in their rc's...
firefox has been pretty solid canvas for opti up to 2k verticies
but their fps curves depend on verticies... depending ho complex your animation... depends which one will perform better
(and shaded faces count)
 
I'm a fan of polished 2D games. I'll promote those. There's a real elegance to beautiful 2D games that we've lost because there is no platform to support them.
 
2D games in browser has been capable for years using sprites
you just had to be an artist to make the sprite sheets
(or access to one)
 
@VulgarBinary well yes but I'm writing a library to abstract away your problems :)
 
...although a polished 2D rendering engine would be impressive if it were simple enough
 
Make it maintable and scaleable
@VulgarBinary its not going to be a rendering engine more a utility. It needs to be a really thin wrapper. Anything more kills preformance too much on the canvas
 
12:07 AM
utility to accomplish what? object tracking and event bubbling?
(If so.... I still say base it on JQuery... it caches and uses graphs.... runtime you can't beat it)
if you're going rendering, you'd be right... JQuery is a bad decision
 
rendering to the canvas
and tracking objects on the canvas. Also making the whole thing MVC.
 
using only commonJS back end?
 
@VulgarBinary node.js is the server:)
the client has backbone
 
I'm torn... I'd have to bench mark letting jquery handle canvas hooks to doing it in a thinner model
I'm not convinced the performance hit would be as much as you think
 
What do I need jQuery for? There is no use case. There is no point in forcing my clients to use it
 
12:10 AM
John Resig is a brilliant man... I put a lot of faith in his products
closures, lambda expression, graph reduction, and cross browser
 
user1385191
I'm not a huge Resig fan personally, but he's done some good over the years.
 
Closures are js, lambda expressions are js.
What's this graph reduction?
 
@MattMcDonald He makes all of us here (I'm fairly certain) look like script kiddies still in college ;-) And is pushing very hard on the functional programming front... being a huge haskel fan.... I aprove
very raw versions of closures and lambdas are js... they aren't intended as such unless you know what you are doing... too much untested custom code around that and you have problems
 
@VulgarBinary your idolizing him too much
I rely on underscore.js
 
wow... would have never imagined taking criticism for being a Resig fan boy in the js chat room
o.O!
 
12:14 AM
How does jQuery bring better closures and lambdas ?
 
@VulgarBinary I support ya ;)
 
The Xoom is shipped. 2 day air, so that should be Monday, but for some reason it's saying Tues or Wed...
 
Don't get me wrong. He's good and jQuery is great but I have no use-case for it in this project.
 
@ircmaxell business days?
 
2 regular days would be Saturday
 
12:17 AM
(@ 20 years old he changed the entire web dev world with JQuery.... I know I hadn't done anything that changed an entire market at 20)
 
@VulgarBinary also I originally used jQuery to hook events around the canvas but it's such a waste to only use jQuery for that.
 
@Raynos depends what the benchmark was
@Raynos you really have to put them side by side and bench mark it to see if it's a waste or not
 
I'm saying it's a waste to include the entire library for just that
Although I forgot I have to handle input -.- I'll just cheat and XHR it in.
 
@ircmaxell Oh, it's currently Friday where I am :P so two business days for me would be Tues
 
It's still Thursday here :-P
 
12:18 AM
@Raynos maybe... but keep in mind no online full blown game even using lazy loading will init the framework fast.... it'll have load time, and 30k will be a very very small chunk of that. It all depends on how much it saves you verse costs you)
God I wish it was friday in Pittsburgh
 
yes using jQuery for the DOM events is fine.
I don't need jQuery for my custom events though
 
:) casual dress makes such a difference
 
I have to do a training session for my team tomorrow on mvc3 & moq... casual dress makes work bearable but doing all my prep tonight makes it worse than if it were a normal day
 
Cr@p, that reminds me. I was supposed to do a SVN training course today... whoops
 
heh... <3 svn... OH!
 
12:21 AM
Meaning teach, not take
 
buuuut... ever tried out mercurial?
 
nope
 
just started using it (normally a svn fan boy) but I'm impressed with it thus far
 
If I was to move to anything, it'd be Git
 
@VulgarBinary I spent a part of today trying to learn a mvc2 & moq project :)
 
12:23 AM
merc is a alternative to Git without being forced to use shotty management tools to administer it
 
I'm trying to learn how to use git. I think i need to read more documentation
 
@david yes you do
 
@Raynos why mvc2 and not mvc3? Seriously... mvc3 makes mvc2 look like archaic ui dev
 
@VulgarBinary because its a corporate company. THere is no bleeding edge. Someone made the choice of mvc2. MVC2 is what we get
 
@david pick up mercurial or svn... git is horrid when it comes to tools
 
12:24 AM
Just like i'm using vs2005 for day to day development :)
 
@VulgarBinary why's that?
 
@Raynos ahhh... I'm sorry for your luck, I'm a modernization consultant so I go from place to place and am always bleeding edge
 
git is fine. use the command line
@VulgarBinary At least i'm not working with .asp files anymore ;) Being restricted to .NET 2.0 is a pain though
 
/me isn't afraid of the command line. I embrace it
 
@Box9 It's all command line, Git UI still isn't up to par and their ide toolsets are lacking
 
12:25 AM
Sticking to the keyboard will make you much more efficient anyway.
 
The worst part is the legacy VBA script in the excel macros :(
 
@VulgarBinary It seems cloud9 uses git... And I want to use cloud9
 
Command lines are for real men . If I could I would write my code with cat
 
@Box9 not to mention their concepts (clone, push, etc) are not the same as what every other source control package uses
When I'm typing I'm slinging code in an IDE... I don't want to have to type to manage house keeping like source control... imo it's wasted keystrokes
 
@VulgarBinary: Pedantic note: Just because something does things differently, means it's not as good? If we took that approach we'd never have the automobile...
 
12:27 AM
Integrated VC is horrible. Don't use your source control in your IDE. ew. Then again I am using CVS.
 
@VulgarBinary Most IDEs support git. VS doesn't, but most do...
 
@ircmaxel VS + mercurial, VS + SVN (awesome VS plugins for svn), VS + cvs (horrid source control but decent tools)
@ircmaxel VS > Eclipse
 
I agree
 
lets stir up some arguments... ;-)
 
Psh
 
12:28 AM
Netbeans >> VS >> Eclipse
:-P
 
I much rather write Java in Eclipse
 
C# > Dog Shit > Java
 
WebStorm >> Netbeans
 
Java's going the wrong way
 
@VulgarBinary I like having a working VM in linux.
 
12:29 AM
@Raynos Mono
 
@VulgarBinary Monkey Poo > C# > Dog Sh*t > Java
 
@VulgarBinary Mono is unstable. It's not the same.
 
@Raynos they're getting close to production grade.. another 6 months or so and it'll be there
I spent the first 2 years of my business dev career writing java... .NET was a breath of fresh air
 
I'd say the same about node.js
I'd rather hack around in js/python/ruby all day
That or do C++/D
 
when server side javascript is stable I'll be learning that
 
12:30 AM
Unless MS comes out with a lib for Linux, .net is a non-starter for a fair bit of the corporate sector
 
@ircmaxel not as much as you'd think... pittsburgh used to be a HUGE java market... and this year most of them are dropping java for .net
 
@VulgarBinary I'm getting in too late myself. Should have gotten in a year ago.
Tbh .NET is "Microsoft" Therefore "reliable". This is the problem with enterprise companies
 
@VulgarBinary I didn't say all or most. Just a non-trivial %
 
@Raynos I've been poking around with it, but haven't gotten serious. It takes a lot out of me to stay bleeding edge in .net.... don't have enough time to be a hot shot for server side js too
 
Heh. I guess so.
 
12:32 AM
@Raynos I change contracts about every 3-6 months. And spend my days training and working with companies to get their software development up to speed. So I have to stay on top of my game in my money making language
:-)
 
My money making language is JS :)
 
now... if I could learn how to forego sleep....
 
@VulgarBinary GABA - good stuff
 
Anyone have any good ideas for what a good game framework API would be?
 
what city do you work in!? I'd love to make my money doing js... (js has been my favorite language since I was 17)... just not viable in Pittsburgh
 
12:34 AM
@VulgarBinary I dont make money doing JS. I'm a student.
 
user1385191
what types of games?
 
@MattMcDonald type-agnostic games. But set up to be multiplayer
 
@Raynos XNA...
errr... :-P
type agnostic /sigh
 
What's wrong with that?
 
I hate to say it.... Java and GL
 
user1385191
12:35 AM
is there anything in HTML5 that supports bitmap manipulation?
 
No I mean.
What would be good API design for a javascript based game library
 
ahhh... use the content pipeline model from C#/XNA
 
I was thinking a bunch of global objects you extend
 
their content pipeline is godly
no
keep it linnear with a few hooks for standards
 
user1385191
@Raynos If you're going down this route, check out Flixel
 
12:37 AM
camera - screen manipulation - object hooks - event capture
 
@VulgarBinary a good overview of this model?
I'm more working with modeling the server-side
Havn't given much though to the client
 
night all
 
Paul Solt has a good overview with lots of links
yea... xna will cover your server side model fairly well
they do a good job of content management, event binding, triggers, and ai
lots of source object to work from and inherit
 
Oh I forgot to mention
 
gnight @MylesGray
 
12:39 AM
The main theme is that its async and heavily event driven
Everything is bound/trigger and everything is event based.
You set up all your handlers and .trigger("start") done.
 
async won't be a problem... if you're only exposing services and json.. you're golden
keep it extensible
and don't lock anyone down to using a component you made... let them override everything if they want
the worst thing you can do in a game engine is restrict your devs capabilities
it's what's killing sony
(also you might want to look into Torq)
 
Oh yes, sinister grin ... stack overflow CHAT. I knew I could more ways to procrastinate my client work.
 
(or the unreal engine)
 
I see.
I was thinking of abstracting the gameloop away
 
that's one of the constants
 
12:42 AM
Good.
 
you don't want to take away the familiar elements too early on
 
Also forcing everyone to extend Entity
 
you can abstract that... but don't abstract it away
@Evening Shango
 
Oh i'm not abstracting it away.
It's just the gameloop on the server is only "update". The handling user input is done in parallel outside the gameloop
 
update / ai evaluate / state evaluation / and checksum checks
 
12:44 AM
@MattMcDonald flixel has no api documentation :\
 
doing it based on browser you have to be VERY protective of cheaters
 
@VulgarBinary hence it has a server.
 
esp with things like jetpack in existance
 
user1385191
 
A client side game does not have cheat protection
 
12:45 AM
purely client?
you said multiplayer
 
Yes.
 
multiplayer = cheat protection or no dev will use your framework
 
the cheat protection is you sanitize your inputs :\
 
and if they do... I'll pwn at theri games ;-)
 
State is stored on the server.
 
12:45 AM
lol
 
cheat protection is trivial.
 
user1385191
(for reference) Flixel is a Flex game framework that's heavy on global objects being extended and heavy on function overriding.
 
@MattMcDonald Flixel also has some major drawbacks that prevents bigger games from being written on it
 
user1385191
oh I know
 
user1385191
it's got its niche
 
12:47 AM
which is why I pointed to XNA, Torq, and the UT engine by ID
 
Is it a bad design decision to only allow access to game state through event callbacks?
 
yes, it limits your AI capabilities
world events
etc
 
world events?
Ah yes I'm falling into a big trap. "Every entity is in charge of updating it's own state"
 
say I want to use your engine (to inevitably do what I was after doing) make a browser based mmo that doesn't require patching, downloads, or your own computer to even run on
ewww
 
I'm going to have to think hard about that one.
 
12:49 AM
Repository.StateCache(World.Serialize())
 
And refactor it out if needed
@VulgarBinary that one is easy to solve. Hook into the change events
 
yes / no
if you serialize the world and store it on every change trigger your game will require a cray super computer to run on
 
I think I'm just going to go ahead and do it. And write games ontop of it and learn its limitations. It's going to move away from procedural game design
 
What you really want to do is leave your entities unbound from storage
dumb poco for state
and let your devs wire up state persistance
 
I also have a state.set(key, value) method :D
None of this state[key] = value nonsense. This won't work for serious games i'll see where I can go with it
 
12:52 AM
your state.set worries me
I'd do a few things like
state.world.set(x => x.worldproperty ...)
state.characters.where(x => x....).set(x => x....).persist();
 
state isn't global. It's hard coupled to each Entity
 
o.O?
dumb pocos
I'm telling you
 
what is "pocos"
 
O.O!
 
I can see that I'm doing it wrong. But I'm going full steam ahead!
 
12:54 AM
Plain old clr object
properties only
no br or logic in them
just state temp storage
then those can wire into your persistence model
 
yes.
state is clr. It's just a dumb pocos.
 
but your persistence model should be aware of the pocos... but your pocos should be aware of nothing
 
But SomeEntity.bind("someEvent", function (data, state) { ... });
 
I'd do it in reverse
 
Yes pocos are aware of nothing
 
12:56 AM
event.bind().event(Event.Type).To(Entity).Then(...)
 
That's the only access to state. Oh error number two. Writing the server-client io for you
@VulgarBinary ew. Too much like C#
 
functional programming my friend
jquery, linq, haskel... list goes on
 
.bind("event").then(function() { ... })
That feels wrong. Besides everyone already know .bind("event", f)
 
if you can do: SomeEntity.bind <---- your entity is not dumb
 
Entity is not dumb.
Entity manages state
state is dumb
 
12:59 AM
ok maybe we're getting terminology crossed here
poco's make up your entity (keep in mind I'm a .net engineer)
 
Entity.bind("update", function (data, state) { /* update state */ });
 
your state persistence depending how you do it, will be a repository, entity state container, etc
that's where your even binding is available
EntityStateContainer.bind("update", function (state, caller) { .... });
or data, state, caller
caller is important
 
function() Player {
     var e = new Entity;
     var logic = new PlayerLogic;
     e.bind("update", logic.update);
     e.bind("init", logic.init);
     _.extend(this, e);
}
@VulgarBinary is caller important? I have a data hash that the entity.trigger("event", data) get's passed through
 
anon function callbacks
very important for ai / collision detection etc
you can event drive collision detection and ai moves on updates you care about
or you can global tick drive it
 
what should caller contain?
 
1:03 AM
all of your logic bound objects should have anon functions that take in args of the entity that was updated
you then can free yourself from a global tick
 
the update event is the gameloop asking the entity to update itself because a tick passed. It is not an event that the entity fires when it is updated.
 
and have a much more freely expressive ai
If you want to get a lot of press.... get rid of the global tick
very few systems have been able to do it
 
The tick is underlying. There's no reason for it to be public.
 
the tick is a crutch
most dev systems rely on it
and it restricts quite a few things
like truly reactive ai
 
I see.
There is no need for this tick
My system doesn't use it.
 
1:05 AM
not if you build your event model and state containers right
 
Big if :) Every entity has state and is an event emitter.
 
;-)
you're using a true functional language
it shouldn't be hard
regardless boss... been putting off my prep for tomorrow for far too long
 
entity.bind("update", function() {
// Entity has been asked to update itself. The game engine has decided
// It is now your turn to update your physical state.
});
 
shoot me an e-mail and we can keep in touch, I'm normally around about 6-7P EST
 
Is "update" the wrong word
 
1:07 AM
yes
 
You expect that to fire after the update not before.
What is the right word there?
 
if the engine is triggering it... it'd be touch
but that leads to the tick
 
It does.
It's tick driven underneath
 
stay away from the tick
 
You cant have it reactive
 
1:08 AM
sure you can
 
thats ridiculious!
 
associations
proximity maps
 
I need to flush state at x fps.
How do I change state?
 
on the client sure
 
1:09 AM
get away from thinking in the box
 
@VulgarBinary i'd like to.
But if the server broadcasts current state at x fps when does the state update itself internally?
 
the client can have data pushed to it (VERY important), the server doesn't have to persist a normal game loop
 
I guess
 
if you're thinking entirely async, person does something that triggers updated entity state...
 
we don't really need state to change unless an event happens
 
1:10 AM
that hits a service call (async) on the server
 
Thanks :)
 
that entity's update will trigger associated updates on it's children and send an update to it's parent container
 
I can remove that clutch
 
the parent is aware of the siblings to the updating entity and can determine if the touch needs pushed to the siblings
and it bubbles up from there
 
Events bubbling up? Entities not being a very big array?
Any kind of tree like infrastructure? Are you crazy?
 
1:11 AM
entirely a tree
trees are at the heart of game dev
embrace it
look into some of the collision detection optimizations... you do the same for event trigger optimization
you don't evaluate the entire world, only subsections of the tree
and bubble up, rinse and repeat
 
Thats why I need caller!
because events bubble up
 
do it with tail recursion and you have a very slick efficient beast
;-)
now you're getting it
 
I'll throw that into the event object
.bind("event", cb(data, state, event))
 
yeppers
ok seriously... down to already losing sleep (6 hours and counting) I gotta call it a night
was a pleasure @Raynos :-)
 
Ok
Thanks
Become a regular.
 
1:15 AM
heh... I'll try
 
I'm off too. I'll email you a pong game within a month. I still have to tackle latency hiding.
 
1:52 AM
hi
 
2:25 AM
:) hi
 
2:56 AM
hi
 
3:06 AM
ircmaxell, New Jersey, USA
21.9k 2 15 51
 
3:40 AM
 
lol
 
Any reason why jQuery uses
promiseMethods = "then done fail isResolved isRejected promise".split( " " )
 
Ya know, I had to write code to correct for lens curve in photos like that
 
Instead of using an array in the first place?
 
sad
 
3:42 AM
I wrote that code as part of the stuff for stitching together panoramas using lucas-kanade optical flow estimation to automatically align the images
never got it quite perfect
 
nice!
 
@DanGrossman Not bad at all
 
http://www.dangrossman.info/cs583-mosaicing/applet.php?file=mosaic1_weighted.png
very slow loading java applet that lets you pan around the panorama =p
 
@Shaz, it saves a few bytes
 
@DanGrossman Not loading for me in Chrome?
 
3:46 AM
Weird. Just got a 500 notification on one of my servers. service was restored automatically, but when I went in, mysql showed a bunch of open connections
 
maybe I broke it, heh
 
so I bounced it, and fine
then I checked the error log, and got a whole bunch of warnings for array issues in the past few hours
very weird
 
array issues? in mysql?
 
no, PHP array warnings
 
3:47 AM
*checked the server error log
MySQL was fine after the restart
 
maybe someone's scanning you for vulnerabilities
 
possibly...
everything else looks ok...
 
@Box9 Ah okay, thanks. :)
 
wtf?!?!?!? I just noticed this useragent in the logs:
Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; MyIE2; Deepnet Explorer)
 
That's better than seeing:
2rand[0,1,1] 2rand[0,1,1].2rand[0,1,1].2rand[0,1,1]
...in my logs. :3
Which I still have no clue what that is supposed to be doing.
 
3:51 AM
lol
 
Hmm, 10+ inches of snow tomorrow...
 
where?
 
Maine, USA
 
I'll trade you my floods and high winds for your snowstorm :)
I like snow
 
ahhh
 
3:56 AM
Actually I love the snow
But if it's thundering for you, I might, I like to hear thunder every now and then, not that that's weird or anything
 
lol
 
Thing is, a month or two ago, we were having thunder and lightning while it was snowing/ice pelleting. Apparently it's a rare kind of storm! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thundersnow
 
quite rare
 

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