last day (1982 days later) » 

8:58 PM
@rene got a sec?
 
@JonClements sure
 
thanks
I'm going to try and get burnination stuff going on a more regular basis
 
@JonClements awesome!
 
feel free to invite ROs and regulars - it'll only be a short chat, but it'd be nice to get a plan in place
just for a quickie chat to get some ideas in place, and we can thrash 'em out later
 
hold on
 
9:04 PM
room topic changed to Trogdor: (no tags)
 
I pinged the RO's
Do we need TylerH and Machavity?
 
sure - anyone regular
I'd like this room as a kind of off base for now for burninate/re-tag stuff
just keeping it separate for the moment to not pollute the work that SOCVR does - but we can merge in the transcript later or whatever
you're added as RO - add everyone in SOCVR if needed and invite regulars that participate in clean ups
 
o/
 
9:07 PM
o/
 
Adriian/Petter etc...? any more for any more?
 
I think this is it
Not sure why @Makyen left
 
@JonClements I'm out if you refuse to spell my name correctly on purpose :p
 
@Adriaan It's ok, he never gets gunner's name right either
 
@Adriaan you should know that typing with paws on human invented keyboards is horrible - give me a break :p
 
9:10 PM
@rene I left? The tab's been open since I entered. I don't know why it indicated I left.
 
If others join while we're here great... but, I just wanted to go through a few things and it won't be a long chat
 
Ok, I think we're good to go now.
 
I'll help where I can, though this month is busy at work
 
The floor is yours @JonClements
 
@gunr2171 hey, that's all the best we can do - no point worrying about it
anyway guys...
I think we should keep this burninate/re-tag stuff going
 
9:11 PM
Can we do ? :P
 
I'm not sure how frequently or on what volume of tags per time or the volume of the tag itself
 
But are we just deleting tags?
 
@JonClements FWIW we did have a discussion about size of tags for burnination criteria a while back, before Tunaki took a SO-sabbatical
 
nope @PetterFriberg
 
something like if the tag is over 1000 questions, don't get SOCVR involved because it will take up all our CVs for too long
 
9:12 PM
I picked the one because it's been about for over 3 years
 
but we didn't agree on anything super concrete
 
yeah, 1000 is max of it needs full curating
 
Bhargav's busy, Cody's not about right now etc... and we've been a little lapse about things recently.
So I thought, let's just thrash it out, someone that has direct communication to the CM team if necessary that cares about stuff and the community that cares
 
Ok yeah the burniation needs some new Rene sede magic so we can review max 100-200 questions, meta is all in to upvote'em but very few are actually interested to review..
 
@JonClements did cody leave you with a prioritization of tags to handle?
 
9:15 PM
@rene nope
hence - I'm open to suggestions as to what to approach and why
 
we/I did had one ...
 
once upon a time
somewhere
 
but we need a pragmatic approach - hence this chat
 
@JonClements find the ones that create/encourage off topic stuff
 
mark the room as gallery and any one of a few people are ROs and can come in here and post something, and you (or another mod) comes in and checks it every few days?
 
I want to identify 1) the ones that require bulk removal that have been around for a while - we can just clean up the spillage and 2) the ones that need careful curating
@TylerH I haven't thought it through yet... this is an idea gathering process... not a rule based one.
 
@TylerH I'll add everyone as RO once this meeting is over
 
@JonClements Gotcha
 
@rene maybe something nice that gives us bad (low vote count) questions.
 
Oops, manager is calling me for a brainstorming session. I'll leave this tab open but will be AFK probably til the meeting is over. Feel free to @ me as necessary for followup requests
 
9:18 PM
@JonClements Other than # questions, what criteria should we be using to differentiate between just removing the tag and cleaning up questions while removing the tag (general question)?
 
@Tyler I've given @rene RO access here... hopefully he'll set a more suitable title and manage the room accordingly
 
@Machavity I did had data.stackexchange.com/meta.stackoverflow/query/493425/… /cc @PetterFriberg
 
@Makyen that's why we're at an idea stage
I don't know what a reasonable threshold is... where the effort to do good isn't outweighed by just deleting etc...
it's going to vary
 
@JonClements I'd intended to indicate that my question was a general topic, not one I expected you to have an immediate answer to, but that didn't communicate.
 
no worries
 
9:22 PM
Yeah, we do need some standards. I've been slowly flagging burninates so we know which are still valid, but my flag on this one was declined. So I guess it needs more votes? Discussion?
 
so - we've got the procedure on meta and the SOCVR team is a massive part of that
 
I think we need to revisit the SEDE query, the mso search and the roommeetings that addressed burninaton. From that we can move forward, specially if we can mark tags for mass-removal as well.
 
Jon select what you like, Rene fix the query and the rest of us start reviewing, that sound like a plan to me...
 
I'm afraid I won't be of much help here. I'm willing to do the queue work on butninations, but rarely feel qualified to do anyhting else (such as retagging)
 
@Petter the entire point is that you shouldn't have to "rest of us start reviewing"
 
9:24 PM
@Adriaan that's OK
 
@JonClements meeh if limited it's not a problem
 
what I'd like to see is that 1) we don't forget all the meta requests for stuff and 2) we can act doing stuff that the system allows us to do so
If it's a tag removal - a CM can do that, if it's a tag rename or a merge, a mod can do that etc...
 
I just get scared I don't like to do apple or GoDaddy tags anymore... to much work and little benefit.
 
@PetterFriberg agree on that.
 
doesn't need to be though
 
9:27 PM
@PetterFriberg I agree. Godaddy was brutal. But sometimes we can just bulk remove like [user]
 
you guys are probably as close to our userbase as I am - you're just not suspending their accounts kind of thing
so my idea is, why don't we draw up a spreadsheet of all the meta requests (and any other ideas)
 
First thing would be to update rules, meta post Rene?
 
and prioritise them?
So one level would be - completely useless and bulk delete - clean up the untagged questions later
 
Maybe we should have two categories: Mass removal and full burnination. Then we can take on a larger burn that takes a few weeks maybe while in the mean-time mass-removals are executed. That keeps it going.
 
and then a second level of - analyse a bit using SEDE - if a tag's pretty useless but appears on 90%+ of questions with another tag - we'll just merge them
so I guess what I'm saying is - let's put together something we then work through as a team?
 
9:31 PM
@PetterFriberg I rather first prep the process off-line / out of sight of meta. Going unprepared to Meta is not a good idea.
 
@rene "Going unprepared to Meta is not a good idea" what can possibly go wrong? :p
 
There is also an associated category: clean-up. A process for that category isn't clearly defined, but it's similar to burnination, but without the goal of fully removing the tag (i.e. not mass removed, not edited out, except where clearly inappropriate, etc.), but where off-topic questions are cleaned. If we're revisiting how things are defined, it would be good to have a clear definition/process for "clean-up".
 
I can only imagine rules for not reviewing as vote count and views, hence if enough upvotez or views we just remove tag.
 
my ideal - would be to get mass tag actual tag destructions out of the way sooner rather than later
that'd clear up 3+ year old meta stuff
 
9:36 PM
@JonClements Could I suggest an easy one to start with? I never got traction on this retag and every time I check there's new mistagged questions
 
then to focus on actual efforts whereby we can re-tag or edit posts
 
@Makyen yeah, the clean-up is an open-end.
 
@Machavity sure... but I'm only offering myself as a service to have someone at the end of the line that can mass delete and to be here to act as a coordinator for prioritised requests on behalf on the SOCVR team.
 
@JonClements I kind of agree better to remove quick (avoid new offtopic) rather then to keep marker... Since no one will review the market anyway
 
@JonClements Sure thing. It's good to have it here (SOCVR is a place we try to avoid that)
 
one sec- seeing if "he who must be named" has a moment :)
 
room topic changed to Trogdor: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/… [burnination]
 
Darn, sniped
 
What is next step a meta?
 
I'm thinking that we can do meta in a smarter way
 
9:45 PM
Next step is to have the prioritzed list and a process for each category, mass, burn, clean-up
 
Having a process defined will go a long way towards making this work smoothly
as opposed to [godaddy] or [documentation]
 
I'm trying to make it feel more comfortable and worthwhile
 
For my understanding: what was the problem at GoDaddy? I wasn't around back then, at least not moderating
 
@Machavity does that mean: yes we need process or No, get out with your process?
 
Question somewhat related... what about blacklisting? It suffers the same as burnination. Is there anything we could do to help that as well
 
9:47 PM
@Adriaan it stalled due to pushback from the community
 
@Machavity mhm, doubt it, a mod needs to do that right?
 
@rene We need process. Something we can follow to get stuff done. Right now you post on Meta and then wait and cross your fingers
 
@Adriaan same as apple tons of questions.. you get burned yourself
 
@Machavity OK
 
@Machavity I'm aiming to alleviate that process
not sure how or if I can - but going to try it
this is why discussion with the most active moderating members of the community is a good thing(tm)
 
9:49 PM
Heck, just trying is a step forward. That was what was cool about Cody's kick on it. Seemed like we were clearing backlog
I've got to run for now, but ping me if there's anything I can do. Will check back later
 
cool - thanks @Machavity
 
@rene what are your (final) thoughts on this - is this something you and the team want to do?
 
@JonClements I definitely want to give it a try, specially if the mod team is in on this.
 
I'll try to get a place to document the collected meta requests in the next few hours
 
9:57 PM
probably we need some idea from "he who must be named" if it is good to keep marker (tag) or SO has greater benefit from just removing it to hopefully stop new stuff, give a feeling that the meta posts have sense and concentrate effort on new stuff. We then will try to find a query to review a minimal amount before mass removal
 
We could also actively answer the burninate posts that will never make it. So they can get a status-declined
Oh boy ....
 
@Shog9 thanks for coming
 
Why do I now imagine a shaking head ...?
 
@rene sounds like a plan to get dv.. meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/268187/…
 
I'm back
 
10:02 PM
Hi back
 
@rene then alt+F4
 
Ok...Things I think would be useful if better coordinated:
1. Get rid of burninate requests that are stupid. This means EVERY SINGLE REQUEST that builds on that damn "no one is an expert at this" rationale. Tags are bad because they're ambiguous or somehow harm the site, not because some random jackass never stepped outside of their web-dev cave.
2. Identify tags that primarily need disambiguation: tag would be good but means two completely different things (NOT two mostly-the-same things in two different contexts). These can be automated to a high degree, but folks get lost talking about burnination when they need to be figuring out a disambiguation strategy.
3. Cleanup. Deleting hundreds of closed, downvoted questions isn't hard - or particularly essential to the process. Finding hundreds of off-topic questions in an obscure tag no one has ever tried to dig through is. Migrating or closing is. Editing really is.
 
@JonClements is there a concise list somewhere that details what a CM can do and what a mod can do WRT to tag stuff on a large scale? I know it's a common source of confusion on meta
 
Things that aren't all that helpful:
1. Tons of tag editing while the topic is still being discussed. I can make a tag as though it never existed; any of you could script a tag removal for a few hundred tags. Stuff is hard 'cause it needs judgement, not warm bodies mindlessly clicking.
2. Hand-wringing about a tag with 5 questions in it. Probably still a stupid request, but either do it or don't.
Stuff I can and would be willing to help with:
1. Mass tag removal
2. Mass tag disambiguation
3. Mass question deletion
Stuff I don't have time for but wish I did: declining more stupid burninate requests.
 
What I want to get from this discussion @shog9 is sorting the wheat from the chaff
we've a very willing community and moderators to do things
a lot of stuff, no one has time for or should even care about
 
10:08 PM
@JonClements so you want a data analytics web app built with Python that can let us cross reference all sorts of info from SEDE dumps of questions, eh? We can call it SOQUEEN - Stack Overflow QUEstion Examination and Neutralization
 
I wrote up my thoughts on when burnination is useful a couple years back. Haven't really changed my mind on any of that. Any help applying it is greatly appreciated.
2
 
what I want to achieve here is not necessarily re-writing the rules, but actually, putting them to better use if we can, and actually do something worthwhile, using the resources everyone has to do so, rather than waste everyone's time
@Shog9 let's put the big old ones we can't expect the community to have a hope in hell of re-tagging to bed if they're useless tags - clear those off our plate
 
@JonClements You mentioned something earlier about identifying simple requests and those that need a lot of work. I think it would be useful to start bifurcating the process when it becomes apparent that a tag is problematic primarily due to ambiguity - stuff like that damn angular mess that hung around so long.
 
yup - indeed - that's not as simple as a burnination or a re-tag - that's a huge amount of work
what I'm trying to engage in here is community involment - let's step up to the plate - kill off the easy pickings and start focusing on stuff that needs work
 
Stuff like the "user" tag we burned earlier - that's a bad tag, but the harm is pretty minimal. The "web" tag comes up every now and then for the same reason, and also doesn't really cause much harm. It's worth keeping an eye on those, but unless they reach some vague threshold of "doing more harm than good" it's not really worth thinking about too much.
 
10:13 PM
that's where "balance" comes in
 
But tags where a ton of folks are using them and getting frustrated 'cause they keep seeing questions from folks who think they're about something else... Those are the situations where we're the weakest right now, I think.
 
I almost think we need to migrate our burnination process to a prior process where we determine what step is appropriate - burnination, cleanup, disambiguation, etc.
because each of those things is way different
 
that ^
 
an obvious re-tag is great - mods can do that - easy peasy... everyone goes about their lives noticing nothing
other stuff is much harder
 
The big, common, mostly-meaningless tags... Those requests get a ton of attention 'cause they're bikeshed colors - everyone can have an opinion without much thought. How to sort out tagging for two libraries that have the same name but do different stuff differently on different platforms... Those get icky and few people want to really wade in.
...But those are the ones that do a lot of good if someone takes the time to sort it out
If we're gonna ramp up activity here, I'd like to find a way to spend more effort on the latter.
 
10:17 PM
@Shog9 can't help but feel we're talking about the same thing - cut the chaff (easy job) - leave focus on the other stuff
 
Yup
 
@Shog9 so we've got a team member here that's going to do a spreadsheet of all the things and put it out for review
 
@Shog9 problem with that is that you actually need knowledge of both libraries and platforms. I for one have a very narrow programming mindset, and anything outside that sounds like hogwash to me.
 
@Adriaan sometimes you have to do... research
This is why I so rarely find time for them, unfortunately; most of the work in disambiguation isn't actually retagging, it's learning enough to know which questions need to be retagged.
 
@Shog9 we can cut the obvious chaff out using what we can do with our abilities, and then we can coordinate the rest ongoing?
 
10:19 PM
in short, becoming a quasi-SME
 
What do you like to do with meaningless tags? Mass removal, who cares meta happy, decline? Or skip?
 
This involved under 1000 questions... But it took me the better part of an afternoon to actually figure out which questions needed which tags.
I like TylerH's idea of having an initial "strategy planning" phase that simply determines which path is worth proceeding on (if any): rename, disambiguate, burninate, etc.
 
work call, gotta step away again
 
@Shog9 ditto
I think we need a re-think... hence this room :p
 
Let's focus on that strategy planing then. We can organize that for the coming days
 
10:26 PM
shall we reconvene Tuesday? Gives us a few days?
 
6 to 8 days ...
 
I'm off to bed. Goodnight.
 
Welterusten
 
@rene lol
bed sounds like a good idea... it might be wondering where I've been :p
 
Yeah, I'm also close to falling a sleep
 
10:30 PM
All the sleepy Europeans... ;-)
 
ugh.... I was going to set a schedule for Tuesday, but the system tells me: Because you are a moderator there, an event that you schedule in this room may be advertised on and tweeted by the site's Twitter account. - so I won't... if someone else can though :p
 
Good to see folks willing to help. Have a good night y'all
@JonClements the twitter thing is bogus. There'll be an event created on-site, but you can just delete it (/admin/links ... something something community events)
(some of this stuff dates back to when Twitter had a good API and also when Twitter didn't think deleting fake accounts meant randomly deleting accounts that were used as event publishing for websites)
 
Adriaan has added an event to this room's schedule.‌​
 
There you go.
 
:thumbsup:
 
10:33 PM
@Shog9 haha... sorted anyway ^^^... thanks
 
Not sure I can make it though; there'll be people coming over to empty my fridge
 
/me thinks of what size fridge an elephant has and gives up
anyway, night all
 
cya
 
@JonClements why don't you swim over and have a gander?
 
thanks everyone for their time - I hope we've gotten at least a foot on the step of something
 
10:35 PM
 

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