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8:00 PM
:(
the permission one looks interesting
btw do you use a library for dealing with android storage?
 
That was fun too.
What kind of storage? I typically use either SharedPreferences or Room, depending on what I need.
I've never done any real file system stuff though if that's the question.
 
yes files
 
I haven't looked into it. :(
 
nobody does hehe
 
@DaveS are you part of the hiring process at your company? like do you look at resumes/interview people?
 
8:06 PM
they look at bread skills
 
gues apple just lost all their pedo clientele
inb4 the revenue drop makes them reverse this
I mean from reading this, it sounds like a good thing? I think?
 
8:22 PM
@JBis That's kind of cool, but completely useless if it doesn't work with apps like Snapchat.
Although I assume part of it is probably built into the camera app at least.
 
yeah also it sounds like it needs to be uploaded into iCloud to work
 
Nah, it says it uses "on-device" ML stuff.
 
yeah
> Before an image is stored in iCloud Photos, an on-device matching process is performed for that image against the known CSAM hashes. This matching process is powered by a cryptographic technology called private set intersection, which determines if there is a match without revealing the result. The device creates a cryptographic safety voucher that encodes the match result along with additional encrypted data about the image. This voucher is uploaded to iCloud Photos along with the image.
 
this is not a good thing
at least not imo, or most people in security/crypto tech
 
8:24 PM
before icloud it does the on-device matching and then when its uploaded to icloud it includes the voucher alongside the photo
unless icloud is mandatory
 
I have had iCloud Photos disabled since it was released for other reasons, so no its not mandatory
 
it sounds like you could just not upload photos to the cloud to circumvent it
 
It's not just iCloud Photos, it's imessage too
 
right, so it's entirely avoidable by the sounds of that
for that aspect of it
 
@JBis That's really only true if they expand to providing anything else to law enforcement.
 
8:25 PM
ohh okay it does it when you send a photo in messages too
 
There are a bunch of problems with this
 
iMessage is stupid and iPhone users are assholes if they use it. (or just don't realize they can just use a different message app)
 
No
Jeez bunch of bad takes here
 
Well... I was completely off topic... lol
 
@twiz what do you mean here?
 
8:28 PM
This goes back to a point I made a while ago
> Is there really much of a difference between trusting someone not to look at your data and trusting someone to make it so they can't look at your data?
The entire sense of privacy relies on Apple's algorithm
Which isn't just NOT open source, it's Machine Learning
meaning its a blackbox
 
@JBis Isn't that always true though? I assume iCloud photos aren't stored with end-to-end encryption anyway.
 
@twiz iCloud photos are stored encrypted from my understanding. the only thing that isn't is device backups (which don't include photos).
 
Well, I guess I'll put it this way, I think it makes perfect sense to make it an optional feature that parents can enable on a phone their child uses.
 
how is it a backdoor though, that's what I'm confused about
the fact that they can disable your user makes it a backdoor?
 
@JBis I mean encrypted on your device so they have no way to decrypt it. I'm pretty sure they do a lot of stuff with your pictures already, since they do facial recognition etc to let you search your photos.
 
8:32 PM
backdoors indicate the ability to take control IMO but I'm not a security expert
 
@ballBreaker for something to be e2ee only the sender and receiver should be able to view the contents
it is no longer e2ee, because apple can (possibly) view your messages
 
@JBis They already could possibly do that.
 
@twiz well yes, but no
 
yeah isn't there already image processing stuff inside the phones to categorize photos into albums for you?
 
@ballBreaker all on device
I am really not the best person to articulate the issues with this. I suggest reading a couple articles about it. eff.org/deeplinks/2021/08/…. matthew_d_green's on twitter also explains.
 
8:35 PM
right so this is basically just that, but if you're doing bad things to children you go to jail
haha i unno I don't use apple stuff so I'm completed unaffected by this
 
Well you will be
Everyone always follows in Apple's steps
 
not necessarily
I still have an aux port on my new phone lol
 
Facebook is already trying to do stuff with ads in e2ee whatsapp convos
 
thats why you boycott it and use telegram
or in this case don't buy an apple product
 
telegram is horrible
you mean signal
 
8:38 PM
either way
 
and signal has plenty of issues as well tho it's probably the best option right now
 
@JBis That argument is basically what I said. They could expand it, and then it would be bad, but this in itself isn't necessarily.
Although yeah, I think it would be safer to restrict the features only to kids phones/opt-in.
 
I'm in the party where there isn't going to be a 100% or 0% privacy expected from places, and this is one of the things that falls in the grey area
@twiz the messaging part is only minor's accounts allegedly
 
@JBis They have, but I'm pretty sure a lot of people would be getting murdered right now if the problems were that bad.
 
they are bad
but i nor anyone in crypto knows how to solve them
 
8:41 PM
@ballBreaker Like yeah, I don't intend to messaging underage people in the first place. lol
 
yeah lol, but I get that the idea of them expanding this to other things other than CSAM is potentially a slippery slope
but it also seems like fearmongering
 
again im not really sure how to explain it
It doesn't matter that it's only "under 18" users, or "under 13" users
 
@JBis You mean as a security/privacy philosophy at Apple?
Like it's bad that they even consider it, because it's slightly less private?
I think that would be a fair point, but is more of an opinion/concern than a fact that it will have negative consequences.
 
The point is imessage used to have a certain guaranty, messages sent would be e2ee. That guarantee is no more.
You send a text to your friend, you have no way of knowing how their account is configured and whether that account has been flagged or whether the algo will flag your photo. There is a chance that your photo will be sent to Apple unencrypted and not just that, but to law enforcement.
 
Right
that sucks for apple users
 
8:47 PM
What if law enforcement in another country doesn't like the photo you sent
it's not CSAM, but it's just anti-government
 
at that point it would be something else than what it is
 
@JBis I don't think it sends the photo. Although yes, it sounds like law enforcement can be made aware of who has been flagged, which is less than ideal.
 
@ballBreaker "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
 
they're a company though, they can do whatever they want in this regard
it's up to you as a consumer to buy something else
 
ok. Gotta go. o/
 
8:48 PM
@twiz I have to read the tech release more in depth to understand exactly how it works, but sending law enforcement a hash is useless
 
thats what happens when you build a proprietary system IMO
consumers get pigeonholed into whatever that company does
 
@ballBreaker This isn't a legal debate. Ofc it's legal for them to do what they are doing. It's about ethics and how it effects people.
 
Well apple doesn't have the best ethics track record to begin with so I'm not surprised in the slightest tbh
Either this is going to be successful for them and people won't mind; or it's going to fail and they'll lose money, at which point they will revert back (or not)
if it's successful and people don't care, then yeah, maybe other companies will follow in their footsteps
 
I don't believe the average consumer is knowledgeable enough to care
It is those in tech's responsibility to inform the public
 
I feel like most people are going to be okay with this
the people that are going to care the most are <18 years old and security experts
I guess my overall take is that companies ruin their own hardware/software all the time and the market will generally dictate whether a decision was a good idea or not. As a consumer if you don't like it, you'll have other options assuming there isn't a monopoly on the product. This might be a good thing for what you want, in that it might create competition for applications/phones that are more secure and not apple
 
8:59 PM
@ballBreaker It's the same problem with arguments against surveillance and backdoors. "but we are using it to catch terrorists and criminals"
> At first blush, this argument might seem sound – after all, if the government is merely conducting anti-terrorism surveillance, non-terrorists shouldn't be affected, right?
The problem is "most people" won't see the issue, that doesn't make it a nonissue
 
this isn't the same thing IMO
this is a company, not a government body
yes it does
because I can control it by not buying apple products
and they also don't dictate my freedom
 
the irony
I never thought i'd say this in a discussion with you, but capitalism doesn't always work
 
hahaha I was waiting for that
 
consumers need protection
and when someone like Apple makes this decision, billions of people are effected
 
honestly, fair enough. I'd care more if I used apple stuff
but for me this is basically being like, hey that villain over there is bad
and I'm like yeah
that being said, the whole focus of your argument is fearmongering and paranoia
and what the system might turn into vs what it actually is 'today'
which I also get isn't unfounded either as the present dictates the future
I guess I'm just the kind of person that doesn't really care
 
9:07 PM
@ballBreaker i don't think it's fair to say fearmongering, when there is something legitimate to fear
and everyone was 'paranoid' about government surveillance until 2013
 
fair, fearmongering isn't the best word there
but it's kind of what it is lol
 
How?
 
> the action of deliberately arousing public fear or alarm about a particular issue.
 
Shitty definition
 
hehe
 
9:09 PM
If there's a fire in your building and you yell "fire" is that fearmongering
"look, i'm not on fire and nor are you. Bob is, but I don't didn't like bob that much. The fire won't reach us, stop being paranoid"
 
hahaha
 
xD
 
that's a great analogy
 
thank you thank you
 
I guess the problem is as you said, there aren't many protections for consumers against something like this.. I don't think being loud is going to really get apple to revert, the only thing they'll notice is their wallet
I guess I'm at a loss for solutions
 
9:14 PM
being loud --> people scared --> people buy less apple --> "ouch my wallet"
 
fair
time to fearmonger
xD
 
yes, exactly. "Justified Fearmongering™"
alright im out
cya o/
 
have a good one man!
samesies here,yoga time
\o
 
9:29 PM
Hello
Is it alright to ask a non android question here?
I'm trying to find a chatroom to discuss theoretical CS stuff but so far haven't found one
 
you can try
results are not guaranteed and it's a quiet part of the day, busier in the morning
 
That's alright
I guess I'll just try
So I was reading a research paper that stably sorts a binary array in O(n) time and O(1) space. I'm not really convinced though if it is actually O(1) space and was wondering if I was misunderstanding the paper
4
Q: Problem in the paper "Stable Minimum Space Partitioning in Linear Time"

MathphileThe paper Stable Minimum Space Partitioning in Linear Time describes an algorithm that stably sorts a binary array (an array whose elements can only have two distinct values) in $O(n)$ time complexity and $O(1)$ space complexity. After reading the paper, I am not really convinced that the algorit...

 
@ballBreaker sometimes
 
I posted this on cs theory more than a week ago and haven't gotten any answers. So I was wondering maybe some from SO could help me
 
Tim
9:47 PM
@ballBreaker I got a message "your barony will soon fall" monka
 
are you sure they are claiming O(1) space complexity and not O(1) extra space complexity? As in there's an assumption that you need the counters to count up to O(log2n) bits?
Just storing the input means you need at least O(n) space
 
By O(1) space I actually meant O(1) extra space complexity
But O(1) extra space complexity seems to be impossible even with the assumption that we need counters of O(log n) bits
 
I don't see a reference to counters in Alg D but couldn't you just assume each subproblem re-uses the same 2 counters?
C0 and C1 from another part?
idk still reading this
if you can abandon and re-use your extra space for each sub problem I could see how O(1) extra space is possible
 
@DaveS Right after lemma 3, it says that alg D needs O(log2 n/ log2(log2 n)) counters
 
I see
 
10:05 PM
See you guys tomorrow
 
This contradicts with their definition of O(1) space complexity in the paper: "Moreover, we assume that a constant number of extra storage locations, each capable for storing a word of O(log2 n) bits"
 
Well it looks like they aren't making that claim yet in theorem 1
they combine it with theorem 2 to get theorem 3 which makes that claim
wait they are in thereom 1
idk I haven't done this shit in like 10 years
 
@DaveS it does indeed seem so
@DaveS lol understandable
This paper has a good amount of citations
I hope that this algorithm is actually O(1) space for their sake lol
Plus it would be really cool to try implementing this algorithm
 
It looks like they are focused on computation time, and proving their space complexity via a citation
>Recently, Munro, Raman, and Salowe [6] showed that stable 0-1 sorting
is possible in O(nlog * n) time when only O(1) extra space is available. In
this note we improve this result by reducing the running time to O(n) still
maintaining the space bound.
I think you'd need to read that paper to understand the space complexity, they gloss over how their space bound is O(1) extra space
 
10:22 PM
yup you're probably right
Thanks for your time
 
o/
 
 
1 hour later…
11:41 PM
o/
@Tim I'll read them to you
that's what bros are for
 
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