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9:00 AM
I updated my question. @Félix I am very unpleased with your edit to the answer, because it actually does edit the code, which you are against. This is inconsistent.
 
 
3 hours later…
12:07 PM
Gosh, you sure are thick headed @ImportanceOfBeingErnest. What are you going on about the yellow not being the color? Of course it is, it's the color of quotes, who decided that it's not appropriate? Oh but right, you don't give a shit about any opinion other than yours, so of course you will not bother reconsidering.
As for the edit, as you might have noticed but don't bother recognizing, again, I merely rollbacked to the version that was edited with the notice, contrarily to you I am able to rethink and change opinion, I agree it could have been rollbacks to the original.
Now, as for the whole thing, if really you side with Brian that your brain being such superior and everyone else is just sheeping over poor domain experts, I really don't know what to say
"I am not pleased" Jesus Christ, you think you have been anything close to pleasant in this?
 
12:34 PM
I'm very interested in finding a good solution to this problem. The comments you give here are not very qualified. May I ask how old you are?
 
1:13 PM
hello
@ImportanceOfBeingErnest I don't think age matters on SO. Some of the wisest guys on the site are teenagers.
@FélixGagnon-Grenier you're really taking this the wrong way. This is not about lines in the sand, or python vs php, or smug cabals forcing their ideas down the throat of the community.
 
@Andras While this is true, age would actually explain some of the comments this user has made above.
 
@ImportanceOfBeingErnest irrelevant, just ignore that. Escalating the situation won't help anyone
@Félix, ImportanceOfBeingErnest asked for community input, from the whole community, and rightly so. But the edit in question is of a kind that the final assessment can't be done without domain knowledge. I mean, people who are unfamiliar with the packages might end up with the wrong conclusion. Since users who stumble upon the post itself will need a domain-aware solution, objections from matplotlib users should weigh more than objections from other users, assuming no other kind of objections
now, this is a bit complicated, because users like Braiam advocate editing everything, and other users generally reject any non-trivial edits made to answers.
and Braiam is right that official guidelines support editing, while community consensus is more protective of content
my point is that the issue is not black and white, and with this premise it does actually matter whether someone sees the technical aspect of the edit in its full perspective
For this you need domain knowledge. Your input was asked for and concerned, but ImportanceOfBeingErnest decided to go ahead with the edit. Since there's no concensus on their meta, they can only act in a way that goes against the will of some of the community.
Which brings me to my major objection to this whole ordeal: both of us should've been smarter than engage in an edit war.@FélixGagnon-Grenier as an avid meta user, you should know how this is never a solution to anything.
Yet if I look at the revision history of the post, there's a whole lexicon's worth of items in there for no reason.
Perhaps ImportanceOfBeingErnest should've waited more before doing the first edit, but this doesn't mean that all those revisions were called-for. You know very well that the place for disputing issues like this is on meta.
OK, finished for now :P
 
@Andras There seem to be some very good arguments in what you're saying. Maybe you still want to give an answer, even if you cannot or don't want to decide for any possible solutions, those arguments may give people a more down-to-earth and less emotionalized view on the issue.
 
I'm fairly sure the unemotionalized ship sailed when the post got locked
 
Well, maybe. But there is still the need to change it at some point, either in the one or the other direction. And the one who does that can be helped with what you're saying.
 
1:29 PM
The way this usually goes is that the post will be silently unlocked after a while. Since the current version might as well stay, that should probably be the end of it
Huh, I just noticed that the first edit to the post deserves a slap with a herring.
I sort of invited the editor here:
Mischa, I just noticed that you were the first to edit this controversial post, with the message "Added Deprecation note. Why discuss it on meta? Just do it! The community can just win from it.". You completely the missed the whole point that the question was how the post should be edited. Disregarding the discussion there and taking action in your hands might have triggered the eventual locking of the post. Please don't do this! If you want to discuss this in chat, there's a relevant room. — Andras Deak 35 secs ago
@AndrasDeak hehehe "both of us" should've been "both of you" in that message above, I don't know how I made that mistake
Ah I see, Mischa made the deprecation note edit, which @ImportanceOfBeingErnest "improve edit"ed into the rewritten version. Correct?
in that case that should've been a "reject and edit" (or even better, a "reject")
 
Anonymous
1:45 PM
room topic changed to Discussion: Updating old, high voted answer as recommended code changes: meta.stackoverflow.com/q/351916 (no tags)
 
good idea ^
 
2:43 PM
@AndrasDeak Yes, indeed, I should, and now somewhat regret all of that in light of the unfortunate unfolding of events.
@ImportanceOfBeingErnest While you may find my comments childish, I'd prefer we stop the flaming way in which we're headed.
I may be called a lot of things, but unaware of meta is not one of them, which effectively puts a somewhat disappointing light over this edit war.
In retrospect, I would just wish that the answerer who actually answered the now recommanded way of importing those be not swipped aside by subsequent edits.
Also, I wonder why details about how/why the other way is better (Braiam mentionned less stuff being imported at once or something like that) were not edited into the recommanded answer, and in turn that answer upvoted.
 
@Félix I'm not aware that I have been flaming in any way. If you want to ague more reasonably from now on that is completely fine with me and everyone else I guess.
 
@AndrasDeak I'm not really interested into "discuss" this thing anymore, but I'll give you a quick response.
In my opinion the deprecated note is the better solution. (and based on the Scores at the answers in the relevant meta post, I'm not alone with it).
 
thanks Mischa, I saw your comments:)
 
The edit function can (and should) be used when there is something to do (eg. tell that code is deprecated). If a change is bad it will get rejected or reverted.
I saw the post on meta, made the change and it got approved. So I would not say I missed the point of the question. But I made a change that had no downside for the community.
And with no downside I mean. The community has the notification that the code should not be used, the community has the old code available if needed, the community has the new code.
 
thanks for your response
 
2:52 PM
Addition to my comments: The solution @ImportanceOfBeingErnest had chosen as the "right one" is down to -14 the one with the deprecated note is at +34. So I really don't understand why you all want to stick with it so damn hard. As already said: "The community can just win from it."
 
It would seem there are two contradicting views: those that think this is actually a solved, network wide problem, to which the answer is adding a notice linking to the now recommanded way of doing stuff, and those that think that it is a case by case situation.
My problem with the way the case by case group wants this to unfold now, is they totally discard the other answerer in the process, and totally reject community's opinion
If, there was no other answer with that content, I would be all for adding content, explaining how and why this is now the recommanded solution while leaving the old one in the text.
However, since there is already an answer with that, I say we respect the other answerer, and add a soft notice linking to the now recommanded way
 
@Félix Concerning the new answer containing information about why and how, I would say that the question itself is very short and not detailed. So for such a short question you would also expect a rather short answer, simply stating the solution. I could also imagine that the user posting that answer did not even see that other one, otherwise he might have quoted it.
 
IMHO it should be like this: No other answer with "new, correct, better, whatever code" available? Fine. Change the high voted answer to reflect this "new, correct, better, whatever code". If there is already such an answer: Link it with a big fat deprecated note"

@FélixGagnon-Grenier Oh, I see you have the same opinion here.
 
"My problem with the way the case by case group wants this to unfold now, is they totally discard the other answerer in the process" The other answer was the reason for me to ask this question in the first place. Otherwise I would have simply edited it. I am totally respecting the community, but "the community" is not really decided. (Don't forget that the first comment, linking to the help center and saying that updates may be done to improve has more votes than any other answer)
 
"updates" doesn't feel to me the same as replacing content.
 
3:07 PM
Such an update can be a deprecated note with a link to an other answer.
I'm too slow... xD
 
And we have no way to know if the upvotes on that comment would support that or not. What we could surmise however, from the upvotes on the actual answers, is that they disagree with replacing, and agree with the notice.
 
... and it can be an update as in "software update" - replacing things. That is something one can discuss. And I was hoping to get experienced views on this from the community.
 
Look at the scores of the answers... there you have your views from the community.
 
@ImportanceOfBeingErnest You mean python experience view?
 
Or do you want to say that everyone who voted on any of them is not experienced?
 
3:13 PM
No, experienced view on this kind of edit, which cannot be compared to "changing code" or "altering the meaning of the post.
 
So, you're basically saying that you don't recognize the experience I have with meta.
Nor the experience of all the voters on these answers.
 
So what experience can you contribute here? Are there similar meta questions on edits of posts where another identical post would be present already? Are there questions on editing a minor python import somewhere? Those would be the information needed here.
 
No, hence where the experience actually comes in play.
I could tell before the answers that the way we'd agree on would be to add a notice.
And no, this is not python related more than something else. This is a network wide thing, and the most unobtrusive way to handle such kind of things, is to add a notice.
It would seem however, that neither of us will budge on our conceptions about that, so I'm not sure what outcome will happen here.
By the way, the closest meta post we could find, you hand waved out of the way because of the existence of the other answer, whereas it really is the same root problem.
 
1 min ago, by Félix Gagnon-Grenier
It would seem however, that neither of us will budge on our conceptions about that, so I'm not sure what outcome will happen here.
that ^
 
3:27 PM
everyone involved has dug themselves deep in, and the post in question is locked
 
Anonymous
3:53 PM
I've updated my answer
 
4:12 PM
Do we lack examples for precedence?
 
"because some readers could still find it relevant if they are developing for an old version of the library." this is simply not relevant here. Can you phase that in a way that it applies to the question?
@Aaron Absolutely. If you can contribute that would be extremely helpful. Just note that this is really about a change in the import not in the solution or any other part of the code.
 
Here's an example of a warning note: stackoverflow.com/a/2052396
 
That one is not a good example, because the solution is actually bad, and you need to tell people not to use it. Also the linked answer then adds a lot of details, so it's not comparable to the case here, where the linked answer would simply use the different import. However, do you still think that it is comparable?
 
I think it relates to the answer that linked to this chat room.
I have a lot of experience unseating old answers, whether offering deprecated advice through new developments or if they were just bad to start with. It takes a long time to beat an old/bad answer with hundreds of upvotes, but it eventually happens. - Just putting this out here.
 
My point is that currently there is this big warning,which would prevent people using this highly upvoted answer. This is not what we want, we want to let them use it, just with a different import. So the solution is correct. If we leave it there, people might simply say "Oh, big warning, let's not use it" and this is completely undesired.
 
Anonymous
4:25 PM
@AaronHall I put the link in my answer because my proposal of adding a moderator note was delayed if the noise in comments continues.
 
@ImportanceOfBeingErnest Then what about a compromise, adding the now recommanded import, linking to the actual answer that features it, and leaving the old content there?
 
Anonymous
 
by adding, I mean, adding the code, before the old one, with a link to the existing answer so that we respect the other answerer's work, and leave the old answer.
It would let people use the answer, with the correct import, satisfy the "leave the old ways be seen" folks, as well as the "you should not overly edit" crowd
while leaving credit to the answerer who actually put the recommanded way to light
 
Just my personal principle - I'd prefer the minimal change that's most consistent with preexisting guidance. I think we let people make a code edit, but if there's a rollback, we stick with the rollback.
 
@Félix That could be solution, yes. In my view at least much better than the current status.
 
4:32 PM
i.e. if an edit is controversial and not made by the original author, we stick to the original author's version. I think the warning note is going to be less controversial than changing the import. But consider me just a commentator on the matter for now. I want the community to work it out.
 
That's what I was trying to achieve by asking the question. Up to now it has just produced a lot of ado.
 
that's what we do on meta. :)
 
How does "letting the community work it out" work in such a case, where people have spammed the question with their emotionalized comments and votes, such that it is pretty hard to know which of them is actually based on sound understanding of the problem?
In review I also should not have accepted an answer to that question that early, because it has led people agressing me for comments that the poster of the accepted answer made.
 
Teamwork makes the dream work.
 
And I should not have made an edit to the post in question; which I found then necessary because someone else already did it based on an answer which he liked.
 
4:52 PM
@ImportanceOfBeingErnest -> reject edit :P
 
Yeah, I also pressed the wrong button ;-)
 
Striving to advance is to be human. (Am I doing it right, @Aaron? :D)
 
Iron sharpens iron. :)
 
sweet
 
@ImportanceOfBeingErnest You accepting the answer has nothing to do with it. It's you acting on the answer that provoked the rollbacks.
As for "aggressing", you may consider otherwise, but passive-aggressive attacks on experience, age and understanding is nothing better than what you seem to accuse me of.
I will reiterate however:
39 mins ago, by Félix Gagnon-Grenier
@ImportanceOfBeingErnest Then what about a compromise, adding the now recommanded import, linking to the actual answer that features it, and leaving the old content there?
I would get behind that, and am pretty sure nobody will actually make a fuss over it, as I said, this would satisfy pretty much every group that takes interest in this site.
Because ultimately, it's what this is about. People having interest in this site, its purpose and the way it is managed.
 
5:08 PM
It's too bad the site average up/down vote ratio is 10:1. When I ran for mod, I was at 5:1. Lately, mine has been about 1:1...
 
dem precious points ;)
 
@Félix I already answered to that "@Félix That could be solution, yes. In my view at least much better than the current status." But this is not actually put out as solution to which people can react.
@Aaron what does the vote ratio tell use in view of this question?
 
If more people would vote down, obsolete stuff would take care of itself.
 
I don't think anything more will come out of the meta quastion. Since we both seem to be the most implicated people about this, I think, if we do agree, we should ask @AaronHall to unlock the question, than either of us edit the answer to the form we agreed on
 
either the poster would be motivated to fix it or a new good answer would replace it.
 
5:12 PM
Yep, but the point is again, that the answer in question is not bad.
 
obsolete is not good, and not good is...
 
So nobody would downvote it just because it uses some other import
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier I agree
the two of you represent the two extremes of the subject, so if you arrive at a reasonable compromise, don't hesitate acting on it
@AaronHall (the original version of the answer is not typically obsolete, it's just suboptimal)
 
@Aaron Again, it's not obsolete, there is just by now a lot of reasons not to use pylab anymore.
 
the only thing that has changed is that matplotlib has become more vocal that one should use the other style instead
$ python3 -c 'from matplotlib.pyplot import *; print(len(globals()))'
240
$ python3 -c 'from matplotlib.pylab import *; print(len(globals()))'
988
and that's probably the reason ^
before you guys unlock the post and edit according to a compromise, I suggest that either of you add an answer to the meta post, explaining this conclusion preferably linking to this discussion
that can also help explain if others wonder why Aaron unlocked the post (assuming that he will)
 
5:18 PM
.. partly because there may be issues arising if people just use pylab without understanding python name spaces. And since this question is a typical one that people google, copy code and use, everyone will benefit from simply not using it anymore. By everyone I also mean the people like me or also Andras who answer a couple of matplotlib questions a day and then need to handle problem arising from from it.
 
meh, as I said, I don't have strong feelings either way
and stupid askers will stay stupid no matter what we do :P
(I also don't answer that much)
 
(maybe I have that in mind only because you provided only some but very good answers)
 
Hehe, thanks:) It's more likely that we just happen to collide when I do answer stuff, because matplotlib is one of my tags of interest
 
5:46 PM
Anyways, my personal preference is the rollback to revision 4 - the current state of the answer (currently version 14) which keeps the answer in its original form with the deprecation notice.
 
thank you for your input :P
 
I'm not sure what the stakeholders want - is the matter still disputed?
 
I believe we can let Félix and Importance arrive to a mutually acceptable conclusion, and do whatever that is
 
Well, there seems to be another experienced point that has been made on meta
Well, it changes the import path from pylab to matplotlib.pyplot.plt @Braiam. To any Python programmer with 15 years experience (like, say , me) that is simply not a 'compatible' change, but a change that will only work with certain versions; much like all the import path renames in Python 3. Perhaps the newer command will work in all matplotlib versions? If so, then there's some specific matplotlib import path magic or some such? Pointing out the error in my assumptions would be helpful. Going off on rants about my alleged skills or lack thereof is not. — Carpetsmoker 6 hours ago
 
well the thing is, by bringing it up on meta, you get a lot more potentially interested parties you have to consider. (and I agree with Carpetsmoker there...)
 
5:53 PM
but I can't assess for the truthness, or lack thereof, of that, so as of now, I stand by my proposed compromise
alright good idea, I'll add the proposed compromise as an answer on the meta question
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier I'm not sure I understand Carpetsmoker's point, I'll have to take a closer look later
 
6:04 PM
pylab and pyplot have always been working in any version of whatsoever. Either both work or both don't. There is no versioning here, the rcParams is the same object in both cases. You may do stuff like import pylab; import matplotlib.pyplot as plt; pylab.rcParams["figure.figsize"] = 5,4; plt.rcParams["figure.figsize"] = 10,10 and the latter will overwrite the former.
 
can confirm
oh, gists no longer onebox!
@Carpetsmoker I'm not sure I understand your concerns about import paths. For instance python3 -c 'import pylab; import matplotlib.pyplot as plt; print(pylab.plt is plt)' tells you the two are the same. Pylab is a convenience module for matplotlib.pylab which is a convenience module for numpy+pyplot. Same functionality throughout, just broader namespace. Am I missing your point? For instance, the pylab module is a single file with this content. — Andras Deak 47 secs ago
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier thanks
 
was a pleasure
 
An example for what can happen if you use pylab: import pylab; x = ...; pylab.histogram(x) You see a histogramming function, so you use it, it's just that this is the histogramming function of numpy which is then part of pylab and this does not create a histogram on screen, but computes it into an array. People then wonder why they don't get any output.
 
6:12 PM
oh well. it seems people would rather have the post stay locked in its less ideal status.
I... have had enough of this for one day
laters.
 
Personnally, I do not like that proposed solution by @Félix, but it reflects the other answer's concerns about editing code and answers as well as respecting the desire not to warn people about this good solution, so I think we can go for it. I am happy to to the edit, once everyone agrees to it.
 
well, that last part seems everything but sure...
IN any event, I'm glad we can come to some kind of agreement @ImportanceOfBeingErnest
 
the point of a compromise that neither sides like it, but all can live with it:)
 
But I would keep the emphasis on the "inches". I think that changing that would indeed go against the OP's intention, because he deliberately stressed that.
 
Sure, I am confident you will do for the best
 
6:43 PM
If I had to make a binding decision based on all of the available evidence of what the community wants, I would say that Francesco and Clonkex's meta answers and the current revision 14 best represent the will of the community - and this is in-line with my own understanding outside of these fresh posts.
 
having a parallel discussion with Carpetsmoker, again, anyone correct me if I'm wrong
@Carpetsmoker unfortunately I couldn't find ancient versions of matplotlib online (I tried when this question was asked). It's actually matplotlib.pyplot vs matplotlib.pylab, where the former is a subset of the latter, and the command in the post in question relates strictly to the pyplot subset of pylab. As far as I know and as far as OP here knows, this has always been like this. Matplotlib devs had thought that having access to pyplot (their library) and numpy (fourth-party) under the name of pylab would be useful. — Andras Deak 56 secs ago
 
@Aaron so you don't see the point of not wanting to warn everyone with a big yellow sign about a solution which in principle is good to use? Would you say that the community has taken this objection of mine into account at all? Would you say that this is not relevant?
 
FWIW I think it's fine to keep the suboptimal version as long as the idiomatic version comes first. We all know how deep average noobs read...
 
@Andras you're reply to Carpetsmoker is exactly my understanding of the matter as well.
 
There are a lot of things community does, and does not, take into account. I am not sure what this has to do with following consensus or not...
If community was to vote accordingly to what you believe best @ImportanceOfBeingErnest, would you then wonder if they took your objection into account?
I'm not saying this is how you think, but it looks like you'd discredit community's view as long as it's not going in the same way as yours
 
6:54 PM
@Félix While the consensus is now between you, me, maybe Andras (who says "meh"), it is not what the community wants. Aarons interpretation is then different from our consensus, which is thereby not a valid consensus in the sense that we can simply put it into action.
 
I still think community's consensus on the meta question is the most relevant indicator
 
If both the "old" and "new" versions work for all versions of matplotlib, then it's kind of a different thing @AndrasDeak
Still, it's a bit of a moot point, as mentioning both would be a good idea in any case
As many may not know that they're thesame
 
If the proposed compromise does not make it in the 20 something upvotes, it's really not something we should do
 
Replacing an entire answer is rarely a good thing to do. Updating it is better.
 
@Félix At the moment I still don't see how community consensus will eventually be established. It's always a matter of interpretation.
 
7:01 PM
It seems to me that our inability to determine whether or not the new recommended usage is available for all versions of the library is another reason the original code should not be changed. — Aaron Hall ♦ 3 mins ago
 
@Aaron "page not found"
 
@ImportanceOfBeingErnest it's really not. +34 means something. it means consensus. That is what consensus means.
Your objection seems to be that you discredit the author of the upvotes right to speak on the matter.
 
Looks like 37 net to me...
 
@Aaron I can say with 100% certainty that "the new recommended usage is available for all versions of the library" if "all" means any version of the library that would have been able to run the old pylab solution. We are therefore able to determine that.
 
Anonymous
7:07 PM
For such a minor edit, let's replace the import and remove the notice, leaving two similar answers.
 
ok, look at this from a larger perspective. If someone would to answer a question, than change their question with the content of another, lower scored answer, would you find this ok?
hopefully, you wouldn't, as this is totally not something we allow when reviewing
in this case, the purpose really is only to help the readers that would not read lower in the question to be presented with more relevant material faster, especially since python users recognize that the answer is still good, and that the other one is just better
changing the content of the answer, with another answer's content, is never ok on main
actually, changing one's answer's content with a better one really is taking credit from another ones work.
 
Well, we had that discussion, but my view on this is that the newer answer actually took over the relevant part of the old answer, which is not ok!
Yep and therefore the new answer takes credit for the old answers work.
 
hmmm, no, it's really not. adding new similar answers, that take into account a difference in environment, is totally ok
> There is also this workaround in case you want to change the size without using the figure environment.
somewhat related: are similar answers bad
The new answerer did indeed specify what was different, and proceeded. This is totally ok as far as current community consensus on meta goes.
 
I cannot follow you here. There is no mentionning of the difference between the old and the new answer.
 
what do you mean?
you mean, in the are similar answers bad post?
 
Anonymous
7:20 PM
@FélixGagnon-Grenier I think the problem does not apply, because it's a minor edit. If we stole content, it would apply. But it does not, in my opinion. I think that we should consider the fact that it's a minor edit, if we want to resolve this discussion. Since it's a minor edit, we can say that it would not be stolen.
 
the length of the edit has nothing to do with it... you are proposing to replace an existing answer with the content from another, lower scored answer, which is not okay, however you wish to put it, however "minor" you consider the edit to be
an answer could be improved by changing something as minor as a letter in a method, and it would still be wrong to replace one's answer by taking that letter change from someone else's answer
 
Anonymous
@FélixGagnon-Grenier I think the opposite. By "minor" I don't mean the length, but the type of the edit (e.g. if it corrects imports vs adds a new paragraph)
 
@FrancescoMenzani this is not for you or me to decide, it's up to meta, and meta's consensus on changing answers is that you should not take content from other, better answers and put it into yours
 
The argument not to change anything in an original post somewhat comes from the scientific approach that a source needs to be unchanged. So let's say we discover that in some old Einstein paper there is a method being used which can now be simplified. Now someone writes a new paper using this new method, but the old Einstein content. Would you argue that the old Einstein paper is a copy of the new one?? Surely not.
 
> The argument not to change anything in an original post somewhat comes from the scientific approach that a source needs to be unchanged
what? said who?
 
7:25 PM
Where does it come from then?
 
author's intent, right attribution of content
general respect of people
 
...which is based on what?
 
respect of the source from which you would take the replacing content
@ImportanceOfBeingErnest years of experience on meta
 
no, general respect of people is not an aspect here, as help center states "If you are not comfortable with the idea of your contributions being collaboratively edited [...] this may not be the site for you."
 
gdi. ever made a suggested edit review?
there is literally a reject reason like "deviates from author's intent"
 
7:29 PM
some years of experience on meta vs. 2000 years of scientific reasoning.
 
...
this has nothing to do with the question at hand...
 
It has, you want to establish that the new answer is not a plagiate of the old one. Which it is. But I honestly do not care too much about that. I'm just saying that it is for sure not the other way around.
 
@ImportanceOfBeingErnest If the old one were to be updated with the content from the new one, indeed it would.
maybe the answer should not have been added. maybe the new answer should have been a comment, and hopefully an edit on the original one
 
To me, content in another answer is outside the point (aside from pure copying). However, I had a detail from one of my answers copied into a couple of other older top answers before, and I didn't really like it, to be quite honest.
 
@FrancescoMenzani The view you express here now is somewhat contradictory to your answer on the question. What was the reason to change the opinion? Could that help us here?
 
7:37 PM
A rolling stone gathers no moss.
 
@Aaron But by "detail" you don't mean a python import statement, right? That is the whole point of it here. Otherwise I would completely agree that citations would be needed.
 
let's recenter the debate here. @ImportanceOfBeingErnest wants to change the import in the old upvoted answer with new ways of importing something, as mentionned in another newer answer. They also dislike the notice directing towards the new answer because that would... discourage people from using the solution?
 
The detail here would be the use of rcParams which is copied from the old to the new answer without citation. But I also think by now that this is a secondary point. And the real problem is how to handle the old answer.
 
hmmm, by old you mean the new import one, from which we would copy to the "original" imports one?
 
Anonymous
7:44 PM
Yes, my opinion did change. Mostly because it's a minor edit, so I don't consider it plagiarism. Furthermore, the Help Center warns you that "answers are collaboratively edited". I agree with @ImportanceOfBeingErnest I think most of those who voted didn't understand the question well (me too)
 
Anonymous
I opened my mind and evaluated all the aspects of the problem, then I came to this conclusion
 
18 mins ago, by Félix Gagnon-Grenier
there is literally a reject reason like "deviates from author's intent"
 
Anonymous
Basically, in this particular situation the deprecation note could be avoided, exactly because it's a minor edit. If it weren't, we should stick to guidelines and go for it. Again, in this particular situation, for minor edits, I think that answer duplication is acceptable, but maybe the community does not agree with me (if they did understand the question when voting)
 
It is totally not a minor edit
it's like, half of the answer itself
anyway, I'm not saying that about the number of characters, but because it's literally part of the answer, how to make resources available
 
Anonymous
@ImportanceOfBeingErnest Exactly. That was the point of your question, and I didn't get it when writing my answer. The real problem is how to handle the old answer. It is wether it's acceptable in this case, i.e. for minor edits, to leave two identical (or similar?) answers
 
7:51 PM
If that applied to half of the people who upvoted @Francescos answer we would be ending up with +/- zero on that answer, leaving us again with no community consensus at all.
 
Anonymous
(I won't give up 50 upvotes :P )
 
Anonymous
Maybe the community understood the question, and they explicitly said that it's never acceptable to have two similar answers (or copy things that are considered minor edits)
 
... it is not a minor edit.
 
It is a "minor edit" in the sense that neither the solution changes, nor the author's intention is discredited.
 
Anonymous
Also in the sense of a minor edit to code, when you can only change certain things
 
8:02 PM
But as I said already I would be fine with editing the answer in the way that was now proposed by @Félix as it seemed to me some kind of consesus between very opposite views. However, as pointed out by Aaron this consensus between us is not actually a community consensus, so we cannot simply do it.
 
Anonymous
There's actually another problem: whether the outdated information may still be relevant to people. Aaron suggests that if we cannot determine this, we shouldn't proceed. Well, for that, domain expertise matters. However, in my opinion, it's such a minor thing...
 
Anonymous
@ImportanceOfBeingErnest You should have just edited it ;)
 
heh, this is exactly where I rollbacked advitam aeternam ;) ^
 
As said, it will not be relevant to people, because people who do not know anything about those differences, would not care and just be saved from running into trouble. People who know about the differences would just use whatever suits their needs. The proposed edit does not invalidate a single program that has been written over the past 8 years.
 
Anonymous
rolled back, actually, I think
 
8:09 PM
hmmm... yes indeed :)
or well, I don't know, you probably know better
pun aside, I don't know what kind of rule would be applied here. roll seem to be the verb, but in this case, rollback is as a whole an action (if that makes any sense at all). does it make it some kind of group-word (not sure if that is a thing in english slang)
 
"rolled back advitam aeternam" would then just be a euphemism of "edit war" I guess.
 
yes, it would
however, not exactly, because it would then propose I would have edit warred by myself. Which, as logic 101 would tell us, is not reality.
meh, language is hard.
 
@Francesco Well, I could have edited it without asking the question and nobody would have cared, yes. But after asking the question about it on meta, there was of course no chance to edit it anymore. I have to say it never was my intention to overrule community here. But it was also not intended to spend so much time on this kind of minor thing either.
 
Meta is like a box of chocolates. You never know where you're gonna end.
 
Anonymous
lol, true
 
9:00 PM
3
Q: Should I propose a rejected suggested edit once more?

muruA month ago, I'd suggested an edit, changing: sudo a2enmod cgi; sudo /etc/init.d/apache2 restart To sudo a2enmod cgi; sudo service apache2 restart My edit description was: code formatting, replaced init.d call with the wrapper script service, which would make it more portable acr...

recommended read @ImportanceOfBeingErnest @FrancescoMenzani @FélixGagnon-Grenier
Same situation, expert comes around, edits answer so it is according to the new times, stuff blows over the top, I unilaterally applied the edit and to this day, nobody has complained about the answer stackoverflow.com/posts/24783809/timeline
Heck, now it "works" on debian.
Remember that if there's a "rule" that gets in the way of improving the content on the site, you can change such rule or disregard it.
On UL, we would have complained that nobody has edited an answer to update it.
Oh, look, a wild @AndrasDeak participated on that one
 
huh, guess I did
FWIW on U&L/ubuntu things properly get deprecated/become useless
 
Well, on UL we even go against OP wishes if we believe an edit improved an answer unix.meta.stackexchange.com/a/4419/41104
Remember boys, it's only vandalism so long as it makes the answer worse
 
... well, I for one am happy we don't have that... I mean, if people would go adding their crappy code examples to principles I speak of in my answers, I would remove them ASAP.
 
also, the people who use U&L are probably a broader audience, lot of them with...hmm...less practical in their skills. It's more important for a top "how do I kill this process?" post to be as good as possible than for a top "how do I implement this method of this abstract class?"
 
I mean, it may make sense on UL to add command examples, but there are obviously countless ways in which a newbie could add stupid examples to an oop high level question
 
9:13 PM
not to disregard people who can't program, but those people can't program
 
@AndrasDeak it's backwards. There are immensely more programmers than *nix users.
 
wat?
like, all programmers use *nix
 
@Braiam I'm not talking numbers, but ratio of dummies among users
@FélixGagnon-Grenier heh
 
@AndrasDeak hey, we have our good share of dummies
just that those that program, usually aren't the kind of correctly motivated.
and tend to be many more since their motivations are... dubious
When was the last time that you saw a question from a new user that shows that really likes programming?
I believe, for most, that it was the first time they asked their first question.
 
9:17 PM
most good programmers don't ask questions, they only read
unless they're facing something weird
so what I see asked by new users is not really representative of my point
 
@AndrasDeak I'm not even talking about good, but motivated. You can see a loosy programmer that actually hit a road block, and very good ones doing all sorts of atrocities. We had some meta questions about the later the last year.
I'm not a good programmer (I sometimes don't want to call myself programmer either) by any metric, but at very least I am respectful of those that spend their time trying to answer my question.
 
yeah, that's what I meant by good
people don't have to be Jon Skeets
 
@Braiam I... am confused. The way you suggest one should act on other people's answer doesn't always sound like the most respectful way available
 
What I was trying to say is that if someone reasonable googles a programming problem on SO, they read the answers, try to understand and incorporate that into their own code. When someone googles a U&L problem, they're looking for the single simple solution to a specific problem to get it over with. So if the first answer "works", that's the end of the line.
This is my mental image of the difference in use of SO vs unix sites, and what I believe to be a potential reason for the difference in editing culture.
@FélixGagnon-Grenier it's not disrespectful to edit others' answers if that's culturally acceptable in the given society
 
18 mins ago, by Braiam
Remember that if there's a "rule" that gets in the way of improving the content on the site, you can change such rule or disregard it.
 
9:23 PM
@AndrasDeak It's not always like that. In fact, I see more often on the later group people trying to understand. But SO its over-represented, so my views are biased.
 
I mean, in relation to that. It would seem @Braiam is of the opinion that, whatever one thinks would improve a post, to do it, whatever rules there may be
 
@Braiam also my view of U&L might be biased, because I only go there when something breaks and I want a single simple solution to my specific problem to get it over with :P
 
The problem I see @FélixGagnon-Grenier is that you are on the idea that "rules" can't change, and are set in stone.
 
yes, I start to see that (about my somewhat conservative views of rules, that is)
At the moment, I still believe that we should uphold these, or at least bring people with us while changing them
 
Yeah, we're mixing concepts of rules. I suspect that in that quote Braiam means SO official rules when he says "rules". Whereas what is acceptable is defined by the soft rules set out by the community
which on U&L mean "edit everything to make the best of it", while on SO it leans closer to "don't touch unless really necessary"
 
9:26 PM
Whereas it would seem that you would rather do it, and worry later about downvotes on one opinion
 
I would recommend reading the "prisoner dilemma" for anyone: it shows that cooperation usually reports the most benefit for both.
 
I believe it's a duality of law and morals. While it's legal to Edit All The Things on SO, it's considered immoral (so to speak)
 
@AndrasDeak Actually, if I'm reading right, people behaves as if it's not "legal" to edit anything on the site
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier yeah I got lazy
 
9:28 PM
;)
 
@Braiam no, I think nobody says it's illegal. People grab pitchforks for moral, not for laws.
same thing for going vigilante
you don't hang people in the streets for cheating with their taxes
 
Well, an fun exercise for all of you: the accepted answer has a security vulnerability, it allows variable poisoning/injection. The solution is simple, and you are able to do it. The question has +30 answers, which kicks in pagination. As we all remember, comments can be deleted for all sorts of random reasons. What would you do?
 
I don't think security threats should be handled on the same page
when the old version is harmful rather than obsolete/useless, all bets are off and most people will agree
 
@AndrasDeak really? Look at this gem meta.stackoverflow.com/a/273061/792066
 
In the case of the python import, the fact that it was not a critical security issue was brought up quite rapidly, however
 
9:33 PM
@FélixGagnon-Grenier The objective of the exercise is something else.
 
@Braiam let me quote Pekka: "meh". He's not saying "omg don't edit to fix it", he's saying "it's too much work to search for security invulnerabilities"
 
also, this was answered back in 2014. OP might even have changed idea since then
 
@AndrasDeak well, he's not suggesting to fix it either
which was your point
 
> Sometimes, it may be appropriate to edit out the problem; sometimes the entire post is worthless and should be downvoted.
 
@Braiam I was going to say that one could fix the hundreds of thousands of injection vulnerabilities in all those php and sql answers, but nobody would find that to be a good hobby
Pekka might have had something similar on his mind when he said "meh"
 
9:37 PM
@AndrasDeak The reason I linked that one is because both, yours and Pekka first reaction wasn't the same: you were on edit first, he was on the comment/downvote first.
 
Despite Pekka's lukewarm repsonse to that question, I still think that people wouldn't mind removing legit security vulnerabilities
@Braiam oh, let me clarify: comment/downvote first :)
unless OP is nowhere near the site
 
laters, commuting home
 
@AndrasDeak well, don't comment too much either meta.stackoverflow.com/q/318885/792066
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier have a safe trip
@Braiam what should I be looking at there?
 
@AndrasDeak Moderator removed several comments pointing out the potential security issues of answers
 
9:40 PM
ah!
that sucks
I'm not sure the mod represented the community there
 
At this point, I believe you are either, getting annoyed at my round about way of addressing the stuff or already arrived to the point I want to make: if you combine all the meta answers recommending what to do in all sorts of situations, you will find that even if you follow up to a T, at some point you are the bad guy doing bad things.
 
some mods are....unlike the others
 
Meta, for better or worse, is full of contradicting suggestions.
 
@Braiam that I agree on
 
Anonymous
The world needs one language, one version control system, one browser and it will all be perfect. Period.
 
9:42 PM
which means there's no community concensus, really
it also doesn't help that you're stubborn as an ox, Braiam, and your communication is likely to antagonize others :)
 
@FrancescoMenzani Javascript, svn and safari
 
Anonymous
Nooooo
 
@AndrasDeak That kind of happen when you see the bigger picture.
I'm capable of changing my views, I really am, but I'm also capable of seeing the flaws behind the premises of the arguments of others, which I know will leave us worse.
 
I would like to suggest that you chat about stuff not related to this question in a different place. It will be really hard for people to follow up on the results of discussion if you keep posting irrelavant stuff.
 
the stubbornness is the smaller issue :D
 
9:49 PM
My point is, that at some time, doing an edit which should be even more conflictive was "good". And this will be my personal recommendation to @imp and whoever wants to take heed: if you see something that needs edit, you just do it, and expect no one to notice. Once the edit is old enough, is rare that it will be contested.
 
@ImportanceOfBeingErnest I'd argue that our discussion with Braiam is relevant in that it concerns the general view of edits by the community. But anyway I've said all I wanted:)
 
Yes, I see that point. Just make sure not to start discussing about which browser to use or so. ;-)
 
Anonymous
(It wasn't a discussion about which browser to use)
 
10:14 PM
@Braiam God tier level troll right there
@Braiam as much as I disagree with the premises of doing something before any consensus, I'll admit editing stuff sometimes is the option, and might feel differently if that were in the PHP tag, where I mercilessly downvote, destroy or otherwise edit stupid stuff without asking for any permission...
I must say however, that I say this because I don't know python, because I still strive to leave abysmal stuff in place when any other course of action is possible, like in this answer stackoverflow.com/a/34651320/576767
 

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