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10:11 PM
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A: Flag declined for plagiarized answer

TunakiThat is not plagiarism. The second answer ends with: worked for me perfectly. thank you keval! Quoting the answer that helped them (or just copy-pasting it) happens quite frequently in new answers to old questions, that only consists in thanking the other answer. The intent of that post was...

 
BDL
Still it is plagiarized when it is not attributed correctly. And even if it was intended to be a "thank you", it should be deleted.
 
No, plagiarism says that they want to gain something out of it, rep or others. It's all about intent. Here, they are just thanking @BDL.
 
So to get this straight: We are suspending users for a week when they missed that a single sentence was copied from a website but if we flag plagiarism (blatantly copied answers) the flags get declined. Can this site, its moderators and its moderating users make up their mind.
 
@rene Well maybe it shouldn't have been declined, that's not my point. But I disagree that this is plagiarism.
 
BDL
@Tunaki: I don't agree here. Plagiarism is in my opinion whenever you copy/steal something from another person and claim that it is written by you (Source). This is exactly what happened here by copying some code from another answer and not referencing/attributing it in any way.
 
10:11 PM
@BDL And did they claim they wrote it? They didn't, they thanked the other person for having written it.
 
@rene it wasn't flagged as plagiarism though it was flagged as NAA according to the OP.
 
BDL
Yes, because an answer always claims to be written by the answerer unless they attribute it correctly and name the source.
 
@Robert Oh wait I missed that. I thought they mod flag for plagiairsm.
 
@Tunaki: no, it was flagged as NAA.
 
I agree with you the answer is clearly putting an example for thank you.
 
10:11 PM
Intent is irrelevant in the context of plagiarism. That they intended to say thank you doesn't change the fact that they plagiarized an answer. That they posted a non answer while also plagiarizing an another answer doesn't mean that they didn't plagiarize another answer.
 
I'm not sure I agree @Servy. Repetition is different than plagiarism. They even attributed the portion of the answer to the author (by name, ok, and not a link to user profile, but still). The intent is what makes the difference here to me.
 
Did they though? They didn't actually indicate that the code posted was that other persons. A post such as that could just as easily indicate that the author gave them a comment to point them in the right direction, rather than the whole answer being theirs. But anyway, even if it was properly cited (which is is most certainly not) copying someone's entire post and adding no original content to it is also plagiarism. Just going around copying someone's content (rather than incorporating a small relevant portion of it into your own original work) is plagiarism.
 
@Servy I agree with your point. But the OP here "Just didn't go around copying someone's content". They surely copy-pasted it... under the same question, wrote a name, and even pointed to the original apparently (although that was deleted in the mean time). Plagiarism is a strong word, with lots of strong implications, which I find uncalled for here. Naïve is more appropriate IMO.
 
But it looks like you use two different criteria because this is what you said earlier when there was a fairly common sentence copied. In this case it is a complete answer. Plagiarism is a strong word but can we try to be consistent when we apply it, not just when we see fit?
 
@Tunaki Copying someone else's work and then putting their name underneath it is both insufficient for a citation and, as per my last comment still plagiarism. Yes, plagiarism is a strong word, and it applies to this post. That you're claiming that it's okay for this person to be plagiarizing content is very not okay.
 
10:11 PM
@Servy I never said it's ok for this person to plagiarize. And you're right that if you're being very strict, it technically is. Technically. This doesn't mean it's a reasonable description for the situation as it is presented.
 
@Tunaki So you didn't say that it's okay for them to plagiarize, you just said that they committed plagiarism and it's wrong of us to do anything about it? Sorry, but you are saying that it's okay for this person to plagiarize; that is the direct consequence of the statements that you have made. You could of course argue that the punishment here should be less severe than in other cases, sure; there are mitigating factors that should be considered in how harsh the consequences should be, but that doesn't change that it is plagiarism and should be handled as such.
 
I think Tunaki just like to say that it's just another "thank you answer" that should be deleted as NAA (Not An Answer), since its fairly common to see this kind of answers. Hence no need to suspend, nuke account etc or accuse OP for plagiarism. This may be difficult for mods to see (yeah they may choose wrong action), so it can be wise to use custom message.
 
@PetterFriberg Most cases of plagiarism (particularly on a first offense) don't involve a suspended or deleted account. Accusing the author of plagiarism is merited because the author plagiarized content. Saying that you don't care that they were plagiarizing content just because the answer was also not an answer is nonsensical, and inappropriate. You personally may not care that the user is plagiarizing content, but they are. That you don't care is...very depressing.
 
"worked for me perfectly. thank you keval!" and when asked "Please provide explanation too!", the response of "Sure! you can ask keval, his comment is above" hardly indicates a claim of it being their own work. It's an untidy attempt to say thanks to the original author, by a searcher who has no clue about how SO works. The answer quoted (described as a comment) is to the same question. A genuine plagiariser probably wouldn't often think to get away with that, and wouldn't think to twice credit the author of the original (which would reveal the plagiarism).
 
OK I'm not angry anymore, Tunaki and I spoke in private. Anyway, so we've all established that somebody copied content and did an inadequate job of indicating that it wasn't their own, and therefore the content is plagiarized. But even if it wasn't plagiarized, the answer at its core is still a thank-you answer. That's the point Tunaki is trying to make. Not pointing out that the content is plagiarized isn't the same as denying or excusing the plagiarism - it's just not terribly relevant to the issue at hand. Were it an attempt to answer, then yes, plagiarism would be the foremost issue.
 
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@Servy your opinion is ok, but "That you don't care is...very depressing." is not ok, my dear friend you have 127 flags, I have around 5700, I have flagged probably more then 100 plagiarized answer, since we spend time developing tools to find'em, I have seen an flagged around 3000 NAA answer and trust me many of them is "copied code", Thanks this worked for me.... Sorry but I put a lot of effort to keep SO clean and that to me was an insult.
 
On the other hand, of the two issues with this specific post plagiarism was probably the far more readily apparent, and had someone mistaken the answer for being a plagiarized attempt to answer I would have accepted the flag, for the sole reason that plagiarism is wrong and makes me angry regardless of intent... @Servy
 
@PetterFriberg You're looking at my flag count on meta, not on main, not that that has any relevance to the issue at hand anyway. That you flag lots of non-answers as NAA doesn't mean that it's okay to excuse plagiarism when it happens, or to refuse to call plagiarism plagiarism. If you find it insulting then perhaps you should actually take instances of plagiarism seriously rather than simply saying that it's okay and that you don't care just because the post is also not an answer.
@BillWoodger Like I said earlier, whether something is plagiarism has nothing to do with intent. The consequences are likely to change based on intent, sure, but that someone didn't intend to plagiarize content doesn't mean it isn't plagiarism, it just means that it's a less egregious instance of it. That someone inadvertently plagiarized content doesn't make them "not a genuine plagiarizer".
 
@Servy yeah lets "actually take instances of plagiarism seriously" are you ready?
 
@Servy of course it does. Find a definition of plagiarism which doesn't have intent. Just saying so, doesn't make it so.
@BoltClock Whatever the intent? The intent can only be to pretend that something someone else did is your own. I'd like to thank someone for "Something that someone said, word for word". That's not plagiarism. If it is, the word no longer has meaning.
 
@Servy see this is different then the one before stackoverflow.com/a/42641546/5292302, copy and have some one to upvote..
 
10:11 PM
@PetterFriberg What makes you think that that's plagiarism? What content is included in that post that's not the authors, that they don't make clear isn't theirs? Note that it didn't take the entirety of another person's answer and included it, rather it specifically discussed a small section, made it clear in its text that it was doing so, and included in in their own statements. That's very different than copy-pasting the entirety of someone's answer and then saying, "thank you" at the end. There's a difference between reproducing an entire answer and mentioning a small snippet of it.
@BillWoodger Well, for starters, we can use SO's definition which states: "Plagiarism - posting the work of others with no indication that it is not your own" Note that there's nothing related to the intent there. It doesn't matter if you unintentionally posted the work of others without indicating that it's not yours or intentionally did so. You'll find other definitions floating around will be similar to SO's. What definition are you working off of that incorporates intent?
@PetterFriberg It's a more egregious example, sure. That doesn't mean that the example from this meta post isn't plagiarism, it just means it's a less significant example of it.
 
@Servy I'm just trying to show you the 2 extremes of posts that we actively search for (with lots of effort, in programming, checking etc), maybe this way you can both understand why I see one as a "Thank you answer" and why I'm still upset by your statement "That you don't care is...very depressing". If you like more tomorrow I can probably ping you every 10 minutes, now it's bed time
 
@Servy the "no indication that it is not your own" is the intent. Where's that missing? In the example "thanks username" in the answer, pointing to username for the explanation in the comment. No indication that they were claiming it as their own. You got more definitions?
 
@PetterFriberg So because there are other instances of plagiarism out there it means that this one is okay? What's your point? Yes, there are other instances of plagiarism out there. Yes, many of them are more egregious than the example here. No, that doesn't mean that this isn't plagiarism. No, that doesn't make this instance of plagiarism okay; it's still a problem. If you actually care then why are you saying that certain instance of plagiarism don't matter.
@BillWoodger That has nothing to do with intent. If you intended to indicate that it's not your content, but fail, you' still didn't indicate that the content isn't yours, and it's still plagiarism. You don't need to say, "this is my content" when you post an answer. It's implied in all of your posts unless you make it clear that it's not your own original content. The burden is on you to make it explicit what isn't your content, rather than the other way around. And you still haven't provided a definition that considers intent in any way.
 
@Servy hmm, the point is that we have different opinions on this post (you think its plagiarism, I say NAA thanks answer) and while that's is no problem we leave each other with different ideas, you should watch out accusing people of not "caring", when they probably care more then you.
 
@PetterFriberg I never said that it's an answer. Of course it's not an answer. The fact that it's not an answer doesn't mean it can't also contain plagiarism, nor does it excuse it plagiarizing content. Considering that you're still demonstrating that you don't care that this answer is plagiarising another answer, it would appear that my statement is merited. If you don't want people to accuse you of not caring about someone plagiarising then don't say that it's okay for someone to plagiarize content and that there shouldn't be consequences for it.
 
10:11 PM
I will repeat myself and lets end this; to me it's not plagiarism its a thank you answer, since user was clearly indicating "worked for me perfectly. thank you keval!", plus comment indicating that it was another persons answer. We get lots of these on SO and since we are assuming good faith of new users, according to me we should simply delete these with a NAA flag, when it's difficult to see raise a custom moderator flag. This does not mean I don't care about plagiarism, I do, I search for it, I review it and I flag it everyday.
If you like to join us in the search for them you are welcome and you can flag these "thank you" answers as plagiarism, while I will just raise a NAA flag.
 
@Servy the user didn't fail. If the user had just pasted the answer and left it, we wouldn't be in this discussion. They didn't. For me it takes too much to accept that was an attempt to pass it off as their own work. Exceptionally clearly, it was not. Since the user did not in any way attempt to claim it as their own, it is not plagiarism. "This bit is not my work but I can't be bothered reference it properly" is not plagiarism. If it is, then nothing is plagiarism, since there is no reasonable definition left. Needs intent. The pretending it is yours.
 
BDL
Even if you would count "Thanks to XY" as attribution (which I wouldn't because it could be everything from "XY corrected a spelling error in my text" to a citation), it would still have to clearly mark which sections are copied. Here we have some copied text, then a sentence from the user ("worked for me") and then the attribution. Since it's now rather clear that "worked for me" is not part of the original text I wouldn't say the attribution made that clear. That's like writing a newspaper and only mentioning speakers on the last page instead of clearly marking who said what.
 
@Bill Woodger: Every answer includes the owner's user card at the bottom. When you contribute an answer, you are implicitly passing off its entire contents as your own. So clear and explicit attribution of content that is otherwise not yours is required. "'This bit is not my work but I can't be bothered reference it properly' is not plagiarism." 99% of users we've warned and even suspended for repeated acts of plagiarism have all been that. The vast majority of them have each posted anywhere from 2 to 200 answers that are all stolen. Is stealing OK as long as you "didn't mean to steal"?
@Bill Woodger: It doesn't help that other people mistake the content to be that of the plagiarists and giving them credit for something they didn't explicitly disclaim authorship of. There have even been late, thank-you answers that were accepted by the asker because the thank-you wasn't readily apparent (even though it was there... if you looked hard enough). So again, emphasis on clear. The acknowledgement here was anything but.
 
@BoltClock what do you think the intention of that post was?, yes this important, since we often in these case reflect and evaluate intention of OP. We all have edit privileged, so lets just say for a minute that "thank you" answers are allowed on SO, I would say that answer could easily be edit (add quote to first part), add link to user profile where the name is etc. So for it to not be plagiarized it just needs some formatting? This is probably where our ideas diverge?.
We assume good faith of OP, in this case (he/she just did not know how to format and perform a correctly attributed "thank you" answer), no need to witch hunt him/her for that, just delete it as NAA. Note: This consideration is far from stating that we do not care, we do care, we do hunt for it, but yeah we can't point the finger at this answer,
 
@Petter Friberg: Who said anything about witch hunting? "Plagiarism is plagiarism" is not witch hunting. It's asserting that downplaying a fact doesn't change that it is a fact.
 
10:11 PM
I appreciate that you are strong and determined to label this innocent admitted thank you post as furiously plagiarism. What I don't appreciate is that putting a little water into the wine and having a reasonable discussion without throwing insults seems impossible. @Bolt
 
@BoltClock in my opinion there is a great difference between not knowing how to correctly format and attribute (We can help OP with that by editing if his intention is to not plagiarize but to quote, thank etc) and intentional plagiarism. This since the intentional plagiarism we should witch hunt hence this witch hunt makes it fundamental to understand and be able to evaluate when it's not intentional. The question remains; What do you think the intention of that post was?.
maybe it's just that I can't stand that this "stupid" badly formatted "thank you" answer is compared to the real plagiarized answers on SO, so to me they should not be compared.
 
@petter @​tuna, Leave it guys, it is seriously not worth stretching it any further. The arguments are just going down south. Different users have different perspectives. Take that into consideration. Have a nice day.
 
@Petter Friberg: So you acknowledge that the answer is inadvertent plagiarism (or, more precisely, such a poorly executed attempt at thanking another answer that the result is indistinguishable from plagiarism) insofar that you're willing to take corrective measures to make it no longer plagiarism. That's something I can get behind. Just don't say that it is not plagiarism, or try to excuse it. Even in the face of edits from third parties, users still have a responsibility to make sure that their answers clearly indicate portions of content that are not original.
 
@PetterFriberg For like the 5th time, it being a thank you answer doesn't mean it isn't plagiarism. That the answer isn't an answer doesn't change the fact that it was providing someone else's content without properly disclosing that it was not theirs. It is still plagiarism. You clearly don't care that they're committing plagiarism, but that it is is a fact. It meets the definition of the word. The intention of the post, is irrelevant in determining if it's plagiarism. It doesn't matter if it was inadvertent. Forgetting to cite a quotation is plagiarism.
@BillWoodger You still haven't provided a definition of plagiarism that requires intent. You demanded that I provide a definition that doesn't require it, and I did, and now you're failing to provide any source that would indicate that intent is relevant to defining plagiarism. You just keep asserting that it's relevant despite the fact that all definitions don't care about intent at all. "This bit is not my work but I can't be bothered reference it properly" is not plagiarism. Yes, yes it is (not that this post even goes that far, it doesn't indicate that the code isn't their own).
 
@Servy every definition I've seen requires intent. Just pick any. It is there.
 
10:11 PM
@BillWoodger I showed you SO's definition. There's nothing about intent there. I asked you to provide a definition that depends on intent. You haven't provided one. Every definition I've ever seen (and I've seen quite a few) never incorporate intent, so clearly your statement that picking any would have one is false. So, let's try that again. Provide a definition, with a cited source of that definition, that requires intent (or heck, I'll settle for providing one that even mentions it in some way).
 
@Servy "Plagiarism - posting the work of others with no indication that it is not your own". There it is. The intent is providing no indication. With not no indication, it is plagiarism. Now, some want to extend that beyond "no indication" to "not doing exactly what you should do, coz itz rulez" (so, an Answer has your name against it, so everything that is in there is your own contribution, unless 100% of the time fully referenced. Or something. I guess I've plagiarised often by pasting the questioner's code, even where I change some bits, without proper attribution.
 
@BillWoodger Do you know what the word "intent" means? You appear not to. It doesn't matter whether you intend to post someone's work without indicating that it's not your own, you simply need to do it, whether you do it intentionally or unintentionally, it's still plagiarism. If you accidentally forget to cite a source that you quote you still plagiarized that source even though there was no intent. Note that the definition doesn't say, "Plagiarism - posting the work of others where you intend to provide an indication that it is not your own, regardless of whether or not you do."
 
@Servy By passing off someone's work as your own there is intent to do that. To indicate that it is not your own, shows the intent to not plagiarise. As I'm pretty sure I wrote earlier, I agree that if the user in question had solely posted the other answer, we'd not be in this conversation. Now, if you paste, post, and didn't really intend, you can attempt to mitigate, but it would be plagiarism. Look at every famous politician who's been busted for their academic work. It's all "accidental", they claim, but all plagiarism.
 
@BillWoodger No, again intent is irrelevant. You can plagiarize intentionally, and you plagiarize unintentionally, but whether or not you plagiarized is based on whether or not you indicated that the content is your own. The intent has nothing to do with whether or not it was plagiarism. It's all "accidental", they claim, but all plagiarism. So then you realize that intent has nothing to do with the definition of plagiarism, and all of your earlier comments saying it matters (as recently as earlier in the same comment were all wrong? And you realize this now?
 
@Servy circles. "posting the work of others with no indication that it is not your own". If there is "no indication" then the intent is plagiarism in that an indication otherwise shows the intent is not to be plagiarism.
 
10:11 PM
@BillWoodger No, that's not true. I can intent do cite someone's work and indicate that it's not my own but I can fail to do so. If I fail to do so, then I have not indicated that it's not my own, and as a result, it's plagiarism, despite me not intending to plagiarize. The intention is irrelevant. Either you properly indicate that it's not your own, or you don't. if you don't, it's plagiarism, regardless of your intentions. Of course the answer in question doesn't indicate that the code is not their own, so by your own definition they intended to plagiarize.
 
@Servy Intent is obvious if there is the opposite of "no indication". If you don't pass it off as your own, the intent was not to pass it off as your own. OK, I'm no lawyer, maybe saying thanks to the person who wrote the original immediately following the bit you pasted can somehow be interpreted as intent to pass it off as your own. There we, and others, differ. To me it is 100% not an attempt to pass it off as there own. Not plagiarism. Intent not plagiarism. Without the intent to be not plagiarism, it's plagiarism. Accidents happen, some claims of accident are more convincing than others.
 
@BillWoodger For like the 10th time intent is irrelevant. If I intend to wear a blue shirt today, but I put on a red shirt, my shirt is still red, regardless of whether I intended it to be red or not. If you fail to cite someone else's content then you are plagiarizing that content whether you intended to or not. You of course said a much in an earlier comment, explicitly describing instances of unintentional plagiarism which would be an oxymoron if plagiarism required intent to be plagiarism.
@BillWoodger Saying, "thanks <name>" at the end of an answer doesn't indicate that the content preceding it is not yours, and is in fact someone else's. If I say, "thanks Bill" at the end of this comment, it doesn't mean that the content was written by you and I'm quoting it. If I used quote marks and said that "bill said [...]" then I'm actually indicating that certain content is not mine, and indicating what content isn't mine, and whose it actually is. Thanks Bill.
 
Plagiarism is deliberately presenting someone else's work is your own original work. It's not copying and pasting, and it's not messing up when formatting a quote. Ignorance does matter, intent does matter. Claiming otherwise is absurd.
 
@barbecue [citation needed]. SO's definition of plagiarism, and any definition I've ever seen presented, defines plagiarism as presenting another's work as your own, with no discussion of intent. What's your basis for stating that intent is relevant to plagiarism? If you mess up and don't cite something that you meant to you still plagiarized that content. That's how the word is defined. Claiming otherwise is absurd. You can say that the intent matters to you about how "bad" you think it is, what the consequences will be, sure. That doesn't change the fact that it's plagiarism.
 
You said it yourself "as presenting another's work as your own" means there had to be an intention to take credit for the work. Otherwise it's just presenting another person's work. By your definition, if I present something with citations, and some other person cuts off the citations with scissors, I'm guilty of plagiarism. That's asinine.
 
10:11 PM
@barbecue No, there is no mention of intention in there. If you present another's work as yours intentionally or unintentionally then that is plagiarism. If you present a properly cited work and someone removes that citation then that post is still plagiarized, until it's fixed. The person who removed the citation is the one responsible for the plagiarism, but it is still plagiarism. That you don't like the definition of the word doesn't change the definition of the word.
 
eis
According to Wikipedia, "The idea [of plagiarism] remains problematic with unclear definitions and unclear rules.", and they give several definitions of which some include intent to benefit from such act and some say it needs to be deliberate. I think it's fair to say that there are different definitions of it, some mention intent explicitly, some don't.
 

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